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Legend
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I hope you copy and pasted that nonsensical gibberish and didn't take the time to type it out.
I'm praying for you bro.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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Legend
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Legend
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I hope you copy and pasted that nonsensical gibberish and didn't take the time to type it out.
You once told me something I really took to heart, which I know sounds sappy for a message board, but I just thought I'd repost it here:
Quote:
People learn when they learn to talk. They don't learn by finding new ways to shout their case. When we argue, sometimes we have to face truths that we didn't really see before ... that's the beauty of argument.
Dumb people draw lines in the sand. Smart people listen and go with the flow.
I know I don't know you, but that had a big impact on me. I thought it was perhaps pertinent here.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
#gmstrong
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Legend
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The bible is full of instances where God manipulated people to do what he wanted. It's not really free choice. It's more along the lines of do what you want so long as you don't mess up my plans.
No, it's more along the lines of... I've tried to be nice and spent decades trying to get you to see the error of your ways and you just won't listen... so now I will be more direct.
yebat' Putin
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The bible is full of instances where God manipulated people to do what he wanted. It's not really free choice. It's more along the lines of do what you want so long as you don't mess up my plans.
No, it's more along the lines of... I've tried to be nice and spent decades trying to get you to see the error of your ways and you just won't listen... so now I will be more direct.
That ain't what the bible says:
Romans 9:6-24 NIV
"...God’s Sovereign Choice
6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”
10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? ..."
Seems pretty clear to me. Sucks to be Esau and KNOW no matter what you decide and no matter what you choose to do God has it in for you and your offspring. that's some awesome free will for you there ...
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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All Pro
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The bible is full of instances where God manipulated people to do what he wanted. It's not really free choice. It's more along the lines of do what you want so long as you don't mess up my plans.
No, it's more along the lines of... I've tried to be nice and spent decades trying to get you to see the error of your ways and you just won't listen... so now I will be more direct.
That ain't what the bible says:
Romans 9:6-24 NIV
"...God’s Sovereign Choice
6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”
10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? ..."
Seems pretty clear to me. Sucks to be Esau and KNOW no matter what you decide and no matter what you choose to do God has it in for you and your offspring. that's some awesome free will for you there ...
You are taking the text out of context. You need to understand the text in it's relationship to Romans 9-11 first, then in it's relation to the book of Romans, then in it's relationship to the New Testament, then in it's relationship to the Bible as a whole, particularly the passages that Paul is quoting.
It is not a matter of "no matter what you choose to do or not to do God has it in for you". Actually, the truth is, apart from divine Grace, neither Esau nor Jacob would have ever chosen to seek God. The Bible teaches that because of the Fall, man is alienated from God to such an extent that there is none that does good, no not one, there is not that understands, there is none that seek God". Yet we see some who do seek God. Is this a contradiction? Not at all. God is the one who inclines our hearts to seek Him.
The error of your position is the fact that you think God owes us mercy. Yet mercy by definition is underserved. God does not owe us mercy. God does not owe us anything. If He were to deal with us justly, we would all be far worse off then Esau ever could be. God shows a measure of mercy to all, the fact that you and I are alive is due to His mercy.
Secondly, the prophecy of Jacob and Esau is not referring to personal salvation. It is referring to which seed (Jacob or Esau) would receive the Abrahamic blessing. God did bless Esau's descendants, but He also cursed them for their disobediences to Him. Yet Romans 9 is not talking about that, it is talking about which seed (Jacob or Esau) would receive the Abrahamic blessing.
Even in Malachi, where it says Jacob I loved but Esau I hated, it does not mean that God hated Esau. The word love in that context means to choose instead of the one that is hated. It is not talking about hatred as we know it. Basically God is saying I chose Jacob and I did not choose Esau. Choose for what? Choose to receive the Abrahamic blessing, the blessing of the Abrahamic covernant.
Jesus said if we want to follow Him we must hate father, mother, sister, or brother. Yet He commanded us to love them. Is this a contradiction? Not at all, what He meant was that we put Him first. Put Jesus first. God put Jacob first. That is all that is meant.
Regarding mercy, it is a fallacy to say that God is unjust for showing favor to Jacob. If I were a billionare, and I gave 100 million dollars to DC Dawgfan, would I be unjust if I didnt give 100 billion to you and everyone else? Would you have a claim of injustice against me? Of course not, I can justly do what I will with my own.
Again, it was not a matter of personal attainment salvation or otherwise. It had to do with which line would receive the Abrahamic blessing. God was perfectly just to give the blessing to Jacob rather than Esau.
Before someone cries "favoritism", I will just say that the text refutes this as an explanation very clearly. That is the very point. The choice had nothing to do with Esau or Jacob themselves. It was all according to God's purpose, not an arbitrary purpose, but a purpose that originates in God and God alone
Let's not forget that Esau ended up selling his birthright of his own free will also.
It's just like many today. They want the blessing but they don't want the birthright. The birthright entailed not only the blessing but also responsibilities as the firstborn. Esau wanted the blessings, but he wasnt so keen on the responsibilities that went along with the blessings.
Human nature....
Last edited by LA Brown fan; 07/23/14 10:25 PM.
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The bible is full of instances where God manipulated people to do what he wanted. It's not really free choice. It's more along the lines of do what you want so long as you don't mess up my plans.
No, it's more along the lines of... I've tried to be nice and spent decades trying to get you to see the error of your ways and you just won't listen... so now I will be more direct.
That ain't what the bible says:
Romans 9:6-24 NIV
"...God’s Sovereign Choice
6It is not as though God’s word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham’s children. On the contrary, “It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned.” 8In other words, it is not the children by physical descent who are God’s children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham’s offspring. 9For this was how the promise was stated: “At the appointed time I will return, and Sarah will have a son.”
10Not only that, but Rebekah’s children were conceived at the same time by our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God’s purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13Just as it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”
16It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” 20But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’ ”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? ..."
Seems pretty clear to me. Sucks to be Esau and KNOW no matter what you decide and no matter what you choose to do God has it in for you and your offspring. that's some awesome free will for you there ...
You are taking the text out of context. You need to understand the text in it's relationship to Romans 9-11 first, then in it's relation to the book of Romans, then in it's relationship to the New Testament, then in it's relationship to the Bible as a whole, particularly the passages that Paul is quoting.
It is not a matter of "no matter what you choose to do or not to do God has it in for you". Actually, the truth is, apart from divine Grace, neither Esau nor Jacob would have ever chosen to seek God. The Bible teaches that because of the Fall, man is alienated from God to such an extent that there is none that does good, no not one, there is not that understands, there is none that seek God". Yet we see some who do seek God. Is this a contradiction? Not at all. God is the one who inclines our hearts to seek Him.
The error of your position is the fact that you think God owes us mercy. Yet mercy by definition is underserved. God does not owe us mercy. God does not owe us anything. If He were to deal with us justly, we would all be far worse off then Esau ever could be. God shows a measure of mercy to all, the fact that you and I are alive is due to His mercy.
Secondly, the prophecy of Jacob and Esau is not referring to personal salvation. It is referring to which seed (Jacob or Esau) would receive the Abrahamic blessing. God did bless Esau's descendants, but He also cursed them for their disobediences to Him. Yet Romans 9 is not talking about that, it is talking about which seed (Jacob or Esau) would receive the Abrahamic blessing.
Even in Malachi, where it says Jacob I loved but Esau I hated, it does not mean that God hated Esau. The word love in that context means to choose instead of the one that is hated. It is not talking about hatred as we know it. Basically God is saying I chose Jacob and I did not choose Esau. Choose for what? Choose to receive the Abrahamic blessing, the blessing of the Abrahamic covernant.
Jesus said if we want to follow Him we must hate father, mother, sister, or brother. Yet He commanded us to love them. Is this a contradiction? Not at all, what He meant was that we put Him first. Put Jesus first. God put Jacob first. That is all that is meant.
Regarding mercy, it is a fallacy to say that God is unjust for showing favor to Jacob. If I were a billionare, and I gave 100 million dollars to DC Dawgfan, would I be unjust if I didnt give 100 billion to you and everyone else? Would you have a claim of injustice against me? Of course not, I can justly do what I will with my own.
Again, it was not a matter of personal attainment salvation or otherwise. It had to do with which line would receive the Abrahamic blessing. God was perfectly just to give the blessing to Jacob rather than Esau.
Before someone cries "favoritism", I will just say that the text refutes this as an explanation very clearly. That is the very point. The choice had nothing to do with Esau or Jacob themselves. It was all according to God's purpose, not an arbitrary purpose, but a purpose that originates in God and God alone
Let's not forget that Esau ended up selling his birthright of his own free will also.
It's just like many today. They want the blessing but they don't want the birthright. The birthright entailed not only the blessing but also responsibilities as the firstborn. Esau wanted the blessings, but he wasnt so keen on the responsibilities that went along with the blessings.
Human nature....
No offense here but your not very good at following the point. We were not talking about salvation or anyone's right to god's mercy. We were talking about free will. I including a large quote so reader could not say I am picking lines out.
The point is God determined Issac and Esau's fate and lives before they were even born. Because God said it would be that way Esau never had a choice. You can't have free with without a choice.
Further along, because God wanted to humble a ruler to make himself look good He made sure that Pharoh would not give in to Mose's demands. Pharoh did not have a choice. You can't have free will when you don't have a choice.
When God expresses his will you have none. You can't fight or win against God's will. God is very clear on that. Therefore I say again, You don't have free will because you can't resist God's will. You might choose 100 different ways to get something done but your gonna do what God wants you to do whether you like it or not.
Look at the Jews. There is no logical reason they should have survived the holocaust to then become a powerful nation of the middle east. The UN gained no benefit from doing it. Yet it happened. Why because God made a promise and because its his will. The world doesn't get to have a choice when God 's will is involved. The Palestinians got the same raw deal their forefather Esau did.
You say I think man is entitled to God's mercy? You don't know me at all. I KNOW man doesn't deserve God's mercy. I am quite happy that those people thinking they will get away with their crimes because they didn't get caught,"... Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord."
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Legend
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If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
Exodus 21:2-6
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If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
Exodus 21:2-6
Back then if you went into debt you and your family become property. Was common practice all over the world. This passage isn't condoning slavery just dealing with it. Also to clarify, servants were not always slaves. Often they were bound by oaths of fealty. Their master could be put to death for not properly taking care of them. Most often the worse cases were slaves captured from wars. They were not even considered human but the living dead. People too cowardly to die fighting had no human rights.
Eventually they got to the point where they put a term to how long you could be a slave because the constant warring had massive amounts of people becoming slaves to the point where taking a city over became truly bloody because every child and woman would fight to the death rather than live a life forever as a slave. By adding term limits it gave them less reason to fight and thus easier to conquer.
Also for soldiers it meant if their side lost they would not be doomed their whole life. This meant if commanders had a duel the soldiers would abide by the outcome rather than rebel of force them to fight to the death. It also meant Their wives might stay faithful to them until the term was over.
It was a very hard and ugly world back then. Don't blame the bible but rather then men who committed it.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
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Legend
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Quote:
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If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
Exodus 21:2-6
Back then if you went into debt you and your family become property. Was common practice all over the world. This passage isn't condoning slavery just dealing with it. Also to clarify, servants were not always slaves. Often they were bound by oaths of fealty. Their master could be put to death for not properly taking care of them. Most often the worse cases were slaves captured from wars. They were not even considered human but the living dead. People too cowardly to die fighting had no human rights.
Eventually they got to the point where they put a term to how long you could be a slave because the constant warring had massive amounts of people becoming slaves to the point where taking a city over became truly bloody because every child and woman would fight to the death rather than live a life forever as a slave. By adding term limits it gave them less reason to fight and thus easier to conquer.
Also for soldiers it meant if their side lost they would not be doomed their whole life. This meant if commanders had a duel the soldiers would abide by the outcome rather than rebel of force them to fight to the death. It also meant Their wives might stay faithful to them until the term was over.
It was a very hard and ugly world back then. Don't blame the bible but rather then men who committed it.
I thought it was supposed to be the word of God, not man?
Is it an infallible holy text or is it clouded by the misconceptions of ancient man?
If it's the former, your protestations don't hold water. If it's the latter...why bother? There are much better and more enlightened moral tales out there.
The twists and turns one must take to rationalize the Bible as a sacred text crack me up.
A lot of it baffles me. All of the slavery nonsense is swept under the rug and chalked up to a product of the unenlightened times. But the four or five mentions that gay sex is wrong? Let's pass some laws on that gospel.
God: 'Alright, I know you guys are primitive, and had a hard life, so go ahead and write that slaves are OK. But so help me Me, if you let fruits marry each other...'
Like I've said before, it baffles me that Christians feel persecuted or stifled if society doesn't conform law or conduct to their insanity. Believe it if you wish and live your life accordingly to the best of your abilities, but let's not pretend it's valid or belongs at the adult table.
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The Old Testament set down laws for man to follow, and that helped create a civilization. God set forth His rules for man to follow, and those included how to act towards one another.
In those days, for example, people lived mainly in smaller groups, and a leader was necessary, That leader could not be disputed, or the whole clan/family/group could be put at risk. Servants were servants. Masters were masters, Society needed structure and laws to guide them.
Also, the oral tradition of the Bible goes back way beyond the time it was written down. It was a guide for people to learn rules and limitations of living within a society, People were learning to change from small clans who hunted together, to settled farmers, who lived together in a more structured extended group.
The Bible laid down a moral code for people to follow. It also explained how the Messiah would arrive, and how He would be known. Once the Messiah (Jesus) came to Earth, and lived a life in peerfect accord with the laws set forth in the Old Testament, he fulfilled the law for those who both believe in Him, and accept Him as their savior. The Old Testament laws are no longer binding on the Christian who accepts Christ. For those who have not accepted Christ, they will be judged according to the laws God set forth in the Old Testament. Jews, obviously, do not believe that Christ was the Messiah. They believe that God has not yet sent the Messiah. Because of this, they are bound by the Old Testament law, as outlined in the Torah. Today many of those laws no longer apply. We no longer have slavery in most democratic countries. We have the right to vote for our leaders. Because these systems have changed, those still bound by Old Testament law are not violating the law, because those old structures and systems no longer apply. However, Jews do still follow other laws. They do not eat meat that is not prepared in a kosher manner, and do not eat pork, or certain types of seafood.(which was important back in the early days of the Bible, as eating certain kinds of seafood could be deadly if not properly prepared)
It is my personal belief that God created the Old Testament to guide man to a certain level of societal development, and then allowed the old laws to be done away with after the coming of the Messiah. Once Jesus arrived, the laws basically became "love God", "accept Christ as your savior and repent your sins", "love one another", and "forgive one another". Obviously much more goes into the New Testament, but if it had to be broken down into a few main ideals right off the top of my head, these would be them.
The Old Testament is important, because it tells us where we came from. The New Testament tells us how to get to the future, and eternal life with God. Both are important, but the New Testament trumps the Old as far as laws are concerned. (at least for Christians)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. 3 If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. 4 If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
5 “But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free,’ 6 then his master must take him before the judges.[a] He shall take him to the door or the doorpost and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.
Exodus 21:2-6
Back then if you went into debt you and your family become property. Was common practice all over the world. This passage isn't condoning slavery just dealing with it. Also to clarify, servants were not always slaves. Often they were bound by oaths of fealty. Their master could be put to death for not properly taking care of them. Most often the worse cases were slaves captured from wars. They were not even considered human but the living dead. People too cowardly to die fighting had no human rights.
Eventually they got to the point where they put a term to how long you could be a slave because the constant warring had massive amounts of people becoming slaves to the point where taking a city over became truly bloody because every child and woman would fight to the death rather than live a life forever as a slave. By adding term limits it gave them less reason to fight and thus easier to conquer.
Also for soldiers it meant if their side lost they would not be doomed their whole life. This meant if commanders had a duel the soldiers would abide by the outcome rather than rebel of force them to fight to the death. It also meant Their wives might stay faithful to them until the term was over.
It was a very hard and ugly world back then. Don't blame the bible but rather then men who committed it.
I thought it was supposed to be the word of God, not man?
Is it an infallible holy text or is it clouded by the misconceptions of ancient man?
If it's the former, your protestations don't hold water. If it's the latter...why bother? There are much better and more enlightened moral tales out there.
The twists and turns one must take to rationalize the Bible as a sacred text crack me up.
A lot of it baffles me. All of the slavery nonsense is swept under the rug and chalked up to a product of the unenlightened times. But the four or five mentions that gay sex is wrong? Let's pass some laws on that gospel.
God: 'Alright, I know you guys are primitive, and had a hard life, so go ahead and write that slaves are OK. But so help me Me, if you let fruits marry each other...'
Like I've said before, it baffles me that Christians feel persecuted or stifled if society doesn't conform law or conduct to their insanity. Believe it if you wish and live your life accordingly to the best of your abilities, but let's not pretend it's valid or belongs at the adult table.
You just love to take thing out of context don't you. Those verses of the bible were actually the first time slaves were given any rights at all. A man comes alone, he leaves alone. A man comes with a family, they leave as a family. If the master GIVES him a family, then he can choose to leave them or stay with them. The woman would also have the same limit so he could go out and make a home for them if he wanted. He might be better off staying with a master kind enough to give him a wife and let him raise kids. It's not like he doesn't know the law before he marries her either.
How about we go further down in the same passage:
7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.
8 If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.
9 And if he have betrothed her unto his son, he shall deal with her after the manner of daughters.
10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money."
A man sells his own daughter to be a maid(common back then) the master wants to marry her but then changes his mind. he cant sell her but has to redeem her. ok so now he gets a second wife. He cant mistreat or treat her badly either. If he married her to his son then this servant girl now becomes the same as his own daughter.
No laws before this gave such great rights to servants and slaves. No where does it say making a slave is a good thing. It just deals with treating people fairly. Yet you want to insinuate God wants people to be slaves or approves of it. Just ludicrous!
Yes, God views homo sexuality as an abomination. That is the truth. There is no middle ground. He hates it. He made us to reproduce and have children. Wasting a man's seed is a sin. For that same reason he don't like masturbation either. Guess what unmarried sex is bad too. Don't believe God? Go look at the welfare line sometime. It's full of young people who couldn't keep their pants on. there is a reason boys became men at 13 and girls when they got their period. Telling kids to not have sex till after college is just stupid. Kids back then got married and the father of the boy cared for them both and taught them how to be a husband and wife and made sure his son treated his wife well.
There is a reason teenagers have sex and its not because they are bad. They just should have been married a long time ago and having sex with their spouses. yeah in this day in age we say its barbaric and they are too young, but they are having sex anyways. I find it sad they can be taught sex ed, encouraged to have safe sex, but if they would rather be married and having sex then its a frigging crime of some kind. And yes, I am a hypocrite cause I don't want a boy being with my little girls either but that's how I was raised so that's how I am. Just like if you were raised 3000 years ago indentured servents would be normal also.
3000 years ago it wasn't like it is now but you wanna cry foul because the Bible laws don't makes sense in our modern sin filled corrupt society. yet the truth of its words hurt because its just as relevant now as it was 3000 years ago.
Here is the bible simplified:
Just one God, love him, obey him or suffer. Treat your mom and dad with respect. Don't cheat on your spouse. Don't lie, cheat, steal, or want whats not yours. Don't kill anyone. Go to church and love your neighbor. Such, terrible, terrible laws ... now so you don't have to kill animals when you break those rules you can just ask Jesus to forgive you.
The rest is all about the fools who break the rules and how God deals with them. These rules are proven to make you happy, healthier, and more content with life in general. Its why they have stood the test of time for thousands of years.
If you want to nitpick or make fun of some old ancient custom or laws feel free. Truth is still truth even if you don't like it or it makes you uncomfortable. If your going to quote from the bible do it in context. Don't assume because you open it up and read here and there that you understand what it's saying or what it means. Don't get me wrong. It's great that your reading a bible. It's just not good to do so alone. Seek out a teacher aka preacher ans share what your reading with him. Preferably someone who has been to seminary and can read the bible in its original language.
Lot of people believe sinners roast in hell forever too but they don't. There is no eternal hell where sinner suffer in flame forever. They get cast into the lake of fire and are burned up. They die the truth death of oblivion and cease to exist. Good news for atheist since that's what they want anyways right? They would rather not exist than to have an eternal life with God. Lol, don't worry you will get just what you want =) god is not cruel enough to torture you for eternity just because you were stupid while being alive. Then again ceasing to exist kind of sucks too. Choices, choices...
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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I love this thread.
Lol me too. Every time I think it has died it gets picked back up again =) I think its just that people can't stand me to have the last word 
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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What cereal box contains the secret decoder ring that lays out exceptions, shows what's literal/parable, and fills in the big missing details of Jesus from ages 5-30? No, faith isn't a decoder ring. I want actual proof which gives reasonable evidence, justifications, and a straightforward answer on why people are allowed to cherry pick from The Bible.
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Speaking for myself, I have studied, to some extent, Bible scholars and what they teach. I also look at the world of the pre-written Bible, and how the laws apply to that kind of world.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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What cereal box contains the secret decoder ring that lays out exceptions, shows what's literal/parable, and fills in the big missing details of Jesus from ages 5-30? No, faith isn't a decoder ring. I want actual proof which gives reasonable evidence, justifications, and a straightforward answer on why people are allowed to cherry pick from The Bible.
Most of it is common sense when you have actually studied the Bible, how its organized, and get over this nonsense where everything is literal. Lol you want a quick answer on something that takes years and years of study. It's like trying to explain a medical dissertation to someone who is not a doctor. If your serious though and not just being fictitious then you need to start off by just reading it all the way through. Just read it like a history book and not a religious document. I'm not telling you what to believe or not to believe. Just read it. Next read it again. This time as questions arise write them down. Google is great but feel free to ask your local preacher if he has been to seminary. If one isn't available to you locally then feel free to send me a message and I will do my best.
People will cherry pick from the Bible because their understanding in limited by their own personal experience. When I read the Bible the first time in my teens my world experience and what I got out of it than when I was in my 20's and fresh out of college and even more so now that I am pushing 40 and been through some real hardships. Very few people who call themselves followers of God have actually read the entire bible so they are also limited in what they know. Just going to Church is useless.
There are many archaeologist in the middle east these days and they have yet to find ANYTHING that contradicts what they Bible records historically. Matter of fact the more they dig the more proof they find that its not just accurate but VERY accurate.
As for where Jesus went as a youth, he went to India. The three wisemen who came during his birth were Holy men from India. They have a written record of Jesus visiting his extended family north of Pakistan. He later goes on to their top temples and schools and is recorded working wonders from there and winning debates among their top scholars of the day. He was even recognized by the king of India to the point his face was printed on the opposite side of their coin. The king on one side and Jesus on the other. Before the Bible was made in its current form there were books telling that part of his life. The Catholic church didn't like the idea of a Buddhist Jesus so sadly they had them all destroyed. However, In India they have original documents all the way from Jesus's time that are impossible to deny. The miracle Jesus performed with turning water into wine and one loaf becoming many had been performed many times in India before he did it in Israel. These records have been meticulously preserved by the monks who view it as their sacred duty to preserve them and who have no other purpose in life but to preserve them.
That's the best I can do in the limited aspect of a forum. I could spend years and never get to half the things I know. Your just gonna have to read more 8)
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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a straightforward answer on why people are allowed to cherry pick from The Bible.
because people are fallible. 2000 years ago we have Paul decrying the Corinthians about in-fighting among Christians and yet we have that happen constantly still to this day (to the point where we now even have completely separate churches/faiths that openly mock some of the other ones).
If you want a decoder ring, then either follow Exodus 20 (10 commandments) or Matthew 7 (Golden Rule). Both of those chapters are straight forwards guides that set a moral compass.
#gmstrong
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The point is God determined Issac and Esau's fate and lives before they were even born.
The passage in Romans 9 is not talking about Jacob and Esau's personal fate, but which line the Abrahamic blessing (and Messianic prophecy would pass through)
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Because God said it would be that way Esau never had a choice.
A choice in what? You have to correctly discern what the passage is talking about. My question to you is what is this passage telling us about Jacob and Esau? Hint, you need to read the whole book of Romans, then read Romans 9-11 specifically to understand what Romans 9 is talking about.
It is talking about which line (Jacob or Esau) would be the line through which the Abrahamic blessing, (and Messianic prophecy) would pass through.
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What cereal box contains the secret decoder ring that lays out exceptions, shows what's literal/parable, and fills in the big missing details of Jesus from ages 5-30? No, faith isn't a decoder ring. I want actual proof which gives reasonable evidence, justifications, and a straightforward answer on why people are allowed to cherry pick from The Bible.
It's called Hermeneutics and Exegesis.
Rules of proper exegesis include considering context when interpreting a passage. That not only includes textual context, but also historical context. It also involves seeking to understand what the original author meant and what it meant to it's original hearers, rather than placing one's own private interpretation on it. The three basic steps are observe, interpret, and apply.
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Many practice the historical-grammatical method using the inductive method, a general three-fold approach to the text: 1) observation, 2) interpretation, and 3) application.[6][7] Each step builds upon the other, and so they follow in order. The first step of observation involves an examination of words, structure, structural relationships and literary forms. After observations are formed, then the second step of interpretation involves asking interpretative questions, formulating answers to those questions, integration and summarization of the passage. After the meaning is derived through interpretation, then the third step of application involves determining both the theoretical and practical significance of the text, and appropriately applying this significance to today's modern context. There is also a heavy emphasis on personal application that extends into all aspects of the practitioner's life. Theologian Robert Traina, in his 1952 Methodical Bible Study, wrote that "the applicatory step is that for which all else exists. It represents the final purpose of Bible study." [8]
Technically speaking, the grammatical-historical method of interpretation is distinct from the determination of the passage's significance in light of that interpretation. Taken together, interpretation of the passage along with determining the meaning defines the term (Biblical) hermeneutics.[9]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical-grammatical_method
Last edited by LA Brown fan; 07/24/14 02:07 PM.
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Why would a creator comission a book that is ambiguous but requires hours of precise study in order to be saved? Sounds like a bit of a disingenuous rationalization. Quote:
How do you know the difference between literal and nonliteral in non biblical literature?
This involves my field, actually.
It's called fiction vs non-fiction.
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Why would a creator comission a book that is ambiguous but requires hours of precise study in order to be saved? Sounds like a bit of a disingenuous rationalization.
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How do you know the difference between literal and nonliteral in non biblical literature?
This involves my field, actually.
It's called fiction vs non-fiction.
The Bible is far from Ambiguous.
Question...if you have a true (non fiction story) that includes an actual historical person telling a parable (like Jesus and His Parables), the account of the event in which the person is speaking) is non fiction even though it contains a non literal story in it, is it not?
I believe the Bible is 100% non-fiction, even though there are parables, figures of speech, and allegories contained in it. The parts that are nonliteral, parabolic and allegorical can be clearly discerned for one who is led by the Spirit and follows sound Bible study principles. God does not reward slothfulness. The first step is asking God to teach you and guide you as you read His Word.
Understanding the Bible doesnt have to be hard for believers. Unbelievers will never understand it though. Yet for believers, we just need to let God teach us as well as know the principles of Bible study, and there are many good books around about Hermeneutics and Exegesis. Here is one that I thought was pretty good.
http://www.amazon.com/Living-By-Book-Workbook-Science/dp/0802495389
Basically, Bible study is a synergistic endeavor. God doesnt just pour stuff into our heads, He wants us to sincerely and dilligently seek the truth. At the same time, we do not understand the Bible by our own wisdom or cunning, but the Spirit teaches us and illuminates the meaning of scripture to our hearts and minds, if we allow Him to.
Last edited by LA Brown fan; 07/24/14 02:23 PM.
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You say I think man is entitled to God's mercy?
Not in so many words, but when you implied that God "had it in" for Esau, that's how it sounded.
Neither Jacob nor Esau deserved God's blessing. Neither Jacob nor Esau would have sought God of their own initiative. My only point was that God did no injustice to Esau by choosing Jacob's line to be the one that the Abrahamic blessing/Messianic promise would flow through.
...and all nations are blessed through that blessing, for the seed through whom all nations would be blessed is Jesus Christ Himself.
Galatians 3:16- Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
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LA I am just going to drop the free will argument. Those who want to believe they have it will find excuses to show they do. I'll end it with a question. If God proclaims an action will happen, can any man stop him? For me, that answer is a resounding no. You might have 100 ways to get somewhere but in the end you can't resist his will to get where he wants you to go. The only real question is how much time will you waste getting there. That's the last thing I will say on it.
BTW LA I can tell your very intelligent and well versed I say kudos to you =) Always glad to see someone who studies even if we don't share all the same opinions .
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Why would a creator comission a book that is ambiguous but requires hours of precise study in order to be saved? Sounds like a bit of a disingenuous rationalization.
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How do you know the difference between literal and nonliteral in non biblical literature?
This involves my field, actually.
It's called fiction vs non-fiction.
I don't know does a woman ever tell you what makes her happy or expect you to put the time in to find out?
You don't have to read the bible at all to be saved. It just gives our society rules to live by, diets that make you eat healthy, make people know to be clean, and live healthy, happy lives.
To be saved you have to do the hardest thing there is in life. You have to humble yourself and admit you have made mistakes in life. Then you just pray to the one thing that loves you no matter what you do in life to simply forgive you. Then once you have asked forgiveness sincerely, you are. It ain't rocket science and you don't need a decoder ring. Just admit that your not perfect and ask God to forgive you and he will =) Simple things are often the hardest.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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LA I am just going to drop the free will argument. Those who want to believe they have it will find excuses to show they do. I'll end it with a question. If God proclaims an action will happen, can any man stop him? For me, that answer is a resounding no. You might have 100 ways to get somewhere but in the end you can't resist his will to get where he wants you to go. The only real question is how much time will you waste getting there. That's the last thing I will say on it.
I've stayed out of this largely for one reason.. I don't have an answer. It is something that I think about fairly regularly though and you both have made some great points. I struggle sometimes with the free will vs predetermination thought process.. kind of like I struggle with the whole concept of eternity.. not so much forward eternity as I assume there will always be something.. but the backward eternity, that something had no beginning.. yea, I struggle with that.
As far as free will, I actually believe I have it. I do not believe that we are all puppets on a string, preordained to do what we do when we do it or even where we end up by one of many paths.. in order for me to believe that we are preordained by God to travel the road we are on, then I have to believe that God creates human beings and says, "This one will grow up to molest small children." and "This one will grow up to torture and kill innocent people." and I just can't believe that.
yebat' Putin
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LA I am just going to drop the free will argument. Those who want to believe they have it will find excuses to show they do. I'll end it with a question. If God proclaims an action will happen, can any man stop him? For me, that answer is a resounding no. You might have 100 ways to get somewhere but in the end you can't resist his will to get where he wants you to go. The only real question is how much time will you waste getting there. That's the last thing I will say on it.
BTW LA I can tell your very intelligent and well versed I say kudos to you =) Always glad to see someone who studies even if we don't share all the same opinions .
Thank you for the compliment, Razorthorne, it is obvious that you are very intelligent and thoughtful as well.
I am neither arguing for free will or no free will. I dont think Romans 9 is talking about that, rather it is talking about the Soveriegn choice of God in electing Jacob and his descendants to be the line through which the Abrahamic blessing and Messianic promise would pass through
I do not believe we have an absolute free will, but that is another topic. I don't have time now, but if you want, Ill address it later
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LA I am just going to drop the free will argument. Those who want to believe they have it will find excuses to show they do. I'll end it with a question. If God proclaims an action will happen, can any man stop him? For me, that answer is a resounding no. You might have 100 ways to get somewhere but in the end you can't resist his will to get where he wants you to go. The only real question is how much time will you waste getting there. That's the last thing I will say on it.
I've stayed out of this largely for one reason.. I don't have an answer. It is something that I think about fairly regularly though and you both have made some great points. I struggle sometimes with the free will vs predetermination thought process.. kind of like I struggle with the whole concept of eternity.. not so much forward eternity as I assume there will always be something.. but the backward eternity, that something had no beginning.. yea, I struggle with that.
As far as free will, I actually believe I have it. I do not believe that we are all puppets on a string, preordained to do what we do when we do it or even where we end up by one of many paths.. in order for me to believe that we are preordained by God to travel the road we are on, then I have to believe that God creates human beings and says, "This one will grow up to molest small children." and "This one will grow up to torture and kill innocent people." and I just can't believe that.
I don't think we are puppets on a string all the time. Just when God's will might be focused or have a purpose in store for us. think of it as a path that has many forks to it. You can chose any fork that you want to and it will change your journey but in the end no matter how you get there they all just lead to the same purpose God had mapped out for you in the end.
Take Esau for example. He didn't choose to be born first. It just happened to him. His mother knew he would become his brother's servant before he was born. There is no choice in this for Esau because God wills it. He will make any number of choices while growing up but no matter what he does or chooses will not alter the fact that God was going to have him be the servant of his little brother. Sure he choose what to wear each day, he choose what to eat, he choose his daily actions. Yet nothing he could do would let him change God's will for him. He wanted to kill Issac and if you ask me he was justified in doing so. Issac was a trickster and a thief. God took that choice away from him though by protecting Issac. There are many, many examples of this all through the Bible. You can not oppose God's will. Therefore you don't have free will because you can't always choose freely.
Your also under the false idea that God makes everyone to live, die, and go to heaven. He doesn't. Like the potter he makes what he will with his clay. Some things he makes for a special purpose and others he makes to be used and thrown away. This is why there is no eternal hell with torture waiting for a bad person when they die. They will simply die a true death and be gone from existence forever. Until God chooses you, you will never choose him. It's not your will but his.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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I am aware of what you mean. I'm not disputing it. I am just saying that it doesn't take away from being an example of God's will taking precedence over ours. I feel it is one of many examples that show it.
Still after your last statement I don't really think we are very far apart in what we think =)
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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"The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away."
That covers a lot of ground.
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I am aware of what you mean. I'm not disputing it. I am just saying that it doesn't take away from being an example of God's will taking precedence over ours. I feel it is one of many examples that show it.
Still after your last statement I don't really think we are very far apart in what we think =)
I agree that the Lord is Soveriegn and no one can resist His Will.
The part of Romans we have been discussing is referring to God's election of Jacob to be the line chosen to continue the Abrahamic covenant. But it is really an analogy used to answer a question regarding Israel. The question is "why did only a relatively small number of Jews receive the Messiah while the majority rejected Him. Paul's answer is that not every Israelite is a true Israelite.
Romans 9:6- Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
That is why Paul used the examples of Isaac and Ismael and Jacob and Esau, because the Jews thought that they were automatically right with God just because they were descendants of Abraham, and others sought to be justified by the Law
The whole point of Romans 9-11 is that God has elected the children of faith and has rejected those who seek to be justified by Law, works, or physical descent. Those who seek to be justified by Law or works are actually hardened by the gospel of Grace, which is why the majority of the Pharisees rejected HIm
With that said, Romans 9-11 is talking about election. Can there be an election (DIvine Choice) where both Divine Soverienty and human choice are involved. Allow me to give a real life example that may serve as a type of parable, the names have been changed to protect the innocent
I have two brother in laws, we'll say their names are John and Jim. John hates Jim's guts, and Jim doesnt care for John too much either. I was throwing a party at my house, and my wife said what will we do? If we invite Jim, John won't come. (Jim wasnt so hostile, he would still come even if John was there.
So I had four choices. Invite neither, invite both, only invite John, or only invite Jim
.If I invite neither, neither will come.
If I invite Jim, Jim will come, but John wont'
If I invite John only, I am excluding Jim
If I invite both, Jim will come, but John won't.
We ended up inviting both, and John didnt come, but it was not me who excluded him, he excluded himself of his own free will. Yet my decision to invite Jim was made fully aware that John would not come out of his hatred for Jim. In the same way, God made the way of salvation by Grace alone, and many exclude themselves because the Gospel is foolishness to them. God knew they would exclude themselves, but if he did it another way Grace would be excluded.
So God made a choice, and man cannot resist that choice, their only options are to accept it or exclude themselves.
This is the way I see it. IT is an imperfect analogy, but it is the gist of it.
Last edited by LA Brown fan; 07/25/14 12:43 AM.
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I am aware of what you mean. I'm not disputing it. I am just saying that it doesn't take away from being an example of God's will taking precedence over ours. I feel it is one of many examples that show it.
Still after your last statement I don't really think we are very far apart in what we think =)
I agree that the Lord is Soveriegn and no one can resist His Will.
The part of Romans we have been discussing is referring to God's election of Jacob to be the line chosen to continue the Abrahamic covenant. But it is really an analogy used to answer a question regarding Israel. The question is "why did only a relatively small number of Jews receive the Messiah while the majority rejected Him. Paul's answer is that not every Israelite is a true Israelite.
Romans 9:6- Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
That is why Paul used the examples of Isaac and Ismael and Jacob and Esau, because the Jews thought that they were automatically right with God just because they were descendants of Abraham, and others sought to be justified by the Law
The whole point of Romans 9-11 is that God has elected the children of faith and has rejected those who seek to be justified by Law, works, or physical descent. Those who seek to be justified by Law or works are actually hardened by the gospel of Grace, which is why the majority of the Pharisees rejected HIm
With that said, Romans 9-11 is talking about election. Can there be an election (DIvine Choice) where both Divine Soverienty and human choice are involved. Allow me to give a real life example that may serve as a type of parable, the names have been changed to protect the innocent
I have two brother in laws, we'll say their names are John and Jim. John hates Jim's guts, and Jim doesnt care for John too much either. I was throwing a party at my house, and my wife said what will we do? If we invite Jim, John won't come. (Jim wasnt so hostile, he would still come even if John was there.
So I had four choices. Invite neither, invite both, only invite John, or only invite Jim
.If I invite neither, neither will come.
If I invite Jim, Jim will come, but John wont'
If I invite John only, I am excluding Jim
If I invite both, Jim will come, but John won't.
We ended up inviting both, and John didnt come, but it was not me who excluded him, he excluded himself of his own free will. Yet my decision to invite Jim was made fully aware that John would not come out of his hatred for Jim. In the same way, God made the way of salvation by Grace alone, and many exclude themselves because the Gospel is foolishness to them. God knew they would exclude themselves, but if he did it another way Grace would be excluded.
So God made a choice, and man cannot resist that choice, their only options are to accept it or exclude themselves.
This is the way I see it. IT is an imperfect analogy, but it is the gist of it.
Addendum. The children of faith mentioned earlier includes the true Israelites (Jews) who love and have faith in Messiah Jesus as well as the Gentiles who have been grafted into God's blessing through faith
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