DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum More Josh Gordon, I guess

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jmho but a disservice to the Browns ability to prepare themselves for the season I think.

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Yep, it is a disservice to the Browns. If Gordon would NOT have broken the rules numerous times, the Browns would NOT be in this position.

It amazes me how you guys put the cart before the horse.

Browns are bracing themselves for at least eight games without Josh Gordon


http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/08/browns_are_bracing_themselves.html#incart_2box

Browns are bracing themselves for at least eight games without Josh Gordon



CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Browns are bracing themselves for at least an eight-game suspension for receiver Josh Gordon, league sources told cleveland.com.

Gordon's appeal hearing wrapped up Monday afternoon in New York City, and the decision on his indefinite ban could take anywhere from one to three weeks, a source said. If he wins, he'll resume his career without interruption, and if he loses, he'll be banished from the team and the league for at least a year.

But the two sides can also hammer out a settlement, and that's what the Browns are hoping for. Realistically, the best-case scenario would probably be about eight games, a source said.

But the Browns certainly aren't counting on it. They know that no NFL player has ever won an appeal based on second-hand smoke and that Gordon will be hard-pressed to end up with anything less than the indefinite ban.

But Gordon's legal team drove home the point that Gordon has tested negative 70 times since his rookie year in 2012 and that he barely tested positive for marijuana this time around.

In the event Gordon's ban is reduced to eight games, he'd be eligible to return Nov. 6 at Cincinnati, a Thursday night game on NFL Network. The final eight contests include three AFC North contests, two against the Bengals and one against the Ravens in the finale.

Of course, Gordon would have to stay clean during his time away, and efforts are underway to make sure that he has the right support system around him during the ban.

In the meantime, Gordon is practicing with the team, making big plays in practice -- including several big catches during a challenge period at the end of Tuesday's session -- and gearing up for Saturday's preseason opener in Detroit.

"As frustrating as it is for Josh, I think he's handled it well,'' said coach Mike Pettine. "He's been practicing hard, giving good effort, finishing plays. Assuming if we don't hear anything, then he'll be out there Saturday."

Receivers coach Mike McDaniel said working around the Gordon uncertainty hasn't been difficult.

"I try to stick to my job,'' he said. "My job is to develop players, so it really hasn't been an issue for me, and I just go and work on his craft with him. He's been very diligent when he's been here, and for the person, and for the whole team, we hope for the best and just wait for the process to get through itself and take care of itself.''

He said there's so many reps in training camp, that Gordon's aren't detracting from anyone else's.

"He fits very fluidly in that process because guys do need rest anyway,'' he said. "He needs to keep developing his game because at some point in time, he's going to put a Browns jersey on, and he's going to have to be productive. He's a very young player. It doesn't really hinder anybody else. He gets the most out of his reps during practice.''

Despite the looming suspension and missing practice to attend the appeal hearing, Gordon has been on point, McDaniel said.

"To his credit, he's been very, very good about coming into work and making it about football,'' he said. "In his mind, he wants to be as good as there is, so when you're showing plays of other people at his position doing things that he hasn't put in his game yet, he's interested and very competitive to work on that. I've had no qualms about how he's worked with me.''

A former Yale receiver himself himself, McDaniel has coached the likes of Texans receiver Andre Johnson, who led the NFL in receiving yards (1,575) yards and receptions (115) when McDaniel was with him in 2008.

"(Gordon's) as good as I've ever seen personally,'' McDaniel said. "I've been fortunate to be around some really great receivers, Rod Smith, Andre Johnson, Pierre Garcon. In terms of naturally talented and catching the ball, he's as good any one of them, and if you're in those categories, you're an excellent football player.''

Despite the fact Gordon led the NFL with 1,646 yards last year in 14 games, McDaniel feels his upside is tremendous.

"He's a very unique talent in that his ceiling, there's not much higher than that,'' said McDaniel. "At the end of the day, he led the league in receiving. If you extrapolated it to 16 games, it would've been the second-highest total in the history of the game, and he has a lot of room to grow as a route runner.''

"He is a very natural receiver, (the way he) catches it. He's just learning the nuances of NFL offenses because the best receivers are the ones that can get open in the timing of the play, so you have to kind of get a clock in your head of when to get open and how to do it against different techniques. That's our primary focus every day, but he's gotten a lot better going against these great corners.''

McDaniel has been showing Gordon game tape of players such as Johnson, and has found him a willing pupil. He, too, heard the reports of Gordon sometimes loafing in practice, but hasn't witnessed it during their time together.

"You show them the picture of 'okay, this is the way that the great ones practice,''' he said. "He as best he can has attempted to do that and that's always a work in progress when you're dealing with a person that everything's been easy his whole life athletically. So he right now is working harder than he's ever worked in his career and he hasn't reached his ceiling of work ethic. He'll continue to grow as he gets older and progresses as a football player.''

If Gordon does have to go, McDaniel hopes he can come back better than before.

"In anything in life, things happen and you can be regretful, you can have a bunch of emotions,'' he said. "At the end of the day, it's how he responds. And you can use something like this to define you as a person and your character. Wherever the process leads, I hope that he uses all of this to improve himself as a man, just like you'd like you've want anybody to respond to any sort of tribulation.''

Everyone keeps writing that his defense is based on second hand smoke ... but I really don't think that was anything except the PR side of the case. His defense is based on the discrepancy between the test results of the A and B split sample. Period. That is where the case will be won or lost.

Goodjoke and the NFL come out of this looking like the joke they are .. So you cheap shot your wife and get two weeks , take a hit on a joint and get a year ? This administration is just as out of touch with the bulk of American people as the folks in Washington are .

I agree.

The problem is that it sounds like all the B sample is used for, by the NFL anyways, is to confirm the presence of HTC. So even if it had .01ng then it confirms the A. Sounds silly to me. And Ohio labor law, and most other employers and world standards, actually is opposite of the NFL and would take the B sample value and say its a negative test. It really is a conundrum for the arbitrator.

j/c - having read the article on what Josh can do legally in the OH courts to challenge the NFL - 8 games suspension doesn't seem a very good compromise given the negative press surrounding Goddell and the NFL. 4-6 games would seem a reasonable compromise given Josh's strong position. And if you don't think Josh's position is strong .... your kidding yourself. If this was an open/shut case - then the NFL would not have taken this long to announce a resolution.

jc...

While the NFL might argue that they only use the test of the "B" sample to confirm the presence of HTC, the fact is, the NFL does and did test Gordon's "B" sample for the amount of HTC ...just as they do for the "A" sample.

For the NFL to argue that there "B" test is not and should not be considered a test of the level of HTC...the fact remains, the NFL did use Gordon's "B" sample to determine if he was over the limit...otherwise, no one would even know that a number value was given for the testing of the "B" sample.

If the NFL is going to do two tests on a player's urine, the results of both test values should be considered.

The question could be asked...Why is the NFL testing the value of both the "A" sample and "B" sample if all they are doing is trying to confirm the presence of the banned substance in the "B" sample.

Could it be that the NFL's testing of the "A" sample varies greatly, therefore the NFL tests the "B" sample to see if their "A" sample test results are accurate...

Why is the NFL testing the "B" sample for the amount of HTC?

I think if nothing else this has opened a lot of questions about their testing. I think somewhere I read that they actually use a different test on the B sample that is more accurate, why do that if you are in effect ignoring the result if its not over the limit?

j/c

If JG had passed his last 70 tests, I have to wonder what the results were of the previous test before this failure and how many days prior was it taken? So for example, if he were tested one day and passed...and if he really did smoke that night, would his system be down to 16 ng by the next test only a few days later? Honestly, i'm not a scientist to know how this works....

His defense team could have been engaged with scientists that would state for a man of JG's size, there is no way his levels would be that low if he smoked 3-4 days earlier. Maybe, just maybe....the second hand smoke defense is the only thing that actually makes sense. Although, there is strong evidence that he's have to be baking in a closed car for that to take effect.

I personally think the NFL is taking so much time to craft a positive message and good story out of why they are throwing these results out because the testing is flawed. They could possibly be engaged with the NFLPA to work to change the testing rules and that will be a part of the outcome.

It makes no sense to have a reduced suspension....he's half guilty? It's gotta be all or nothing. Depending on the scientific evidence, I think he plays all year.

Until he gets suspended for the DUI

Don't worry, he has money, he won't be found guilty of a DUI. He'll either get a plea to reckless driving or he'll plead "No Contest" which means he's guilty, but with the NFL rules the way they're worded, they can't suspend him for it.

j/c

Also hasn't he been regularly tested since that one failed test and has he not passed all of those? Or once he fails does the testing stop, which wouldn't make sense to me. I guess there could be a lot of moving pieces to this whole process so who knows really what all is going on.

please note that the "passed 70 tests" was just as much rumor as that he missed the test or that it was a diluted sample or the A & B thing going on now.

the NFL cannot actually tell us what is going on, so everything is just leaked rumor and a ton has been untrue to this point, so I'm not sure I want to just blindly believe anything.

that said, I hope he has passed that many tests.

Vers not going to nitpick with you - but they knew all this crap by the draft May. It could have been resolved by training camp 3 months later. But it was not. This is not about Gordon's choices its about the NFL cowtowing to the Steelers and Pats...all the while seemingly to screw us whenever they can.

This is after the fact. If it was Steelers and/or Pats...this would have been done.

jmho Aluminum hatted if it may...lol

As a lifelong Browns fan...I get so tired of Goodell thinking nothing of dumping on the Browns...

I seriously doubt that if Gordon were on the Patriots or Steelers, that a 16.0 ng/ml followed by a 13.6 ng/ml would been called a violation by Goodell.

The only way the Browns are going to get any respect from Roger Goodell is if Jimmy Haslam "demands it"...with the support of a majority of the owners in the NFL.

Goodell still works for the NFL owners...that is how a case such as Ray Rice's ends up being a slap on the hand for the Ravens and their owner, Steve Bisciotti.

The Browns franchise, with a weakened owner, facing his own legal issues, can't demand much from the NFL and he is unlikely to get much support from a majority of the owners.

Had Gordon been playing for the Patriots, Steelers or Ravens, (imo) we would not be talking about our star receiver being suspended.

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As a lifelong Browns fan...I get so tired of Goodell thinking nothing of dumping on the Browns...

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I bet you that every team has fans that feel the exact same way.... Perhaps this should read:

As a lifelong (insert team name) fan...I get so tired of Goodell thinking nothing of dumping on the (insert team name)...


To some, that's accurate.

j/c

To me this has nothing to do about it being the Browns. I think it has a lot to do with many things going on right now....I wonder if anything to do with Irsay is having an affect on this? Because lets be honest, that guy has way more issues that are more serious than Gordon, so what is the NFL going to do about him?

Well I wouldn't go that far with the conspiracy Mac.... my point was the due process If he gets a 1 year suspension from that day forth...and its just prior to the opener it is sort of making us pay. If they take 4 weeks to look at the evidence and then state 1 year suspension means they ignored the evidence. And basically go by the RULE is the RULE which if that is the case then RULE NOW! not 1 week not 4 weeks.

Now if this is because some break is coming - no penalty or a lightened penalty. Ok then I see it being just. But to extend the time sort of a punishment for "APPEALING" then come up with the same results just a sham in my opinion.

Getting off...sometimes the Steelers close relationship might even go the other way at times...as in go ahead use my guy as an example and throw the book at him...but usually that would be somebody they were going to not rely on. Off the top of my head I don't remember names or anything.

It a tough subject. definitely...nothing to draw Mason Dixon lines though.

jmho

IMO I think he gets nothing. I think they will announce it Friday night at 5:00pm, to let it simmer down over the weekend.

Also, how many tests has he taken since the failed one? That's like maybe 4 months time, I'm sure he has been tested since then right? Or did the tests stop once he failed? Has he had a free pass to smoke the last 4 months?

I honestly don't see any way that he gets nothing. As publicized as this has been, and with the other things like DUIs still floating out there, they have to give him something just to save face.

I see no reason for him to accept 8 games.

He has a great case under state law. It is a textbook case under state law. It is a case he can win.

This is very much like the Sherman case ..... where he actually tested above the limit for a performance enhancing drug ..... but because of a chain of custody issue, he won his appeal. He won on a technicality. Gordon actually has a lesser technicality to have to overcome. Sherman had to prove that the chain of custody was violated to the extent that there was no way whatsoever that his sample could be guaranteed nt to have been tampered with. Gordon has proof that his 2 samples did not test the same, using 2 halves of the same sample. I am sure that his lawyers introduced all kinds of evidence regarding allowable and acceptable limits for error in the tests, and showed that this discrepancy was outside those limits. Gordon may have smoked pot, but the rules of the NFL still have to be in accord with state and federal laws. If they are not, then they are the lowest of the 3 in order of enforcement. Federal laws are 1st, then state laws, then the rules of the NFL. Ohio state law says that in the event that a split A/B sample is collected, and B is used to confirm the A testing, that the lower of the 2 results must be used. The NFL rule is the reverse, in that any trace whatsoever of a banned substance in the retest is cause for suspension. State law overrules NFL rules. Gordon would not have been subjected to any other tests, as I understand it, if he had not "failed" that initial tests, so if there was no failure on that test, by state law standards, then there cannot be any further test results used against him.

I think that he stands a great chance of having this suspension overturned. If it is not, then it goes to court, and is tried in an Ohio court, under Ohio law, where the outcome is pretty clear according to the law.

It drives me crazy when I read articles about how Gordon's lawyers are arguing second hand smoke ,,,,, because that is the PR side of this. I doubt that they even bring up 2nd hand smoke in their hearing, because that has completely been rejected by the NFL as a defense. That was PR for Gordon's sake. This case stands on the discrepancy in the initial test that caused this suspension in the 1st place, and whether that test was conducted, and the results were applied, in accordance with Ohio employment laws. They were not, as I understand the laws, and if they have to g to court, I would suspect that it would takeno time to get that kind of ruling .... especially since there is already precedent. .

I blame both for each of their parts.

Gordon for putting himself in this position and the NFL for dragging this out. We know for a fact they've known about this since the first week of May. We have no idea how much earlier they knew about it.