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You had parents that believed in you and that makes all the difference. I still say the number 1 reason people succeed in life is they had good parents. It's a HUGE advantage.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Once again. That is true. But it still effects all Americans.
To me, as a black man, this article just seems like he trying to get the voters to vote another way come election time.
Sorry if I'm not making it a big deal like the rest of you and getting into the all too often race trap.
This is an American problem period. Each individual race when it comes to immigration comes secondary.
For July, the unemployment rate for Whites was 5.3%. For Asians, it was 5.3%. For Blacks, it was 11.4%. (seasonally adjusted) There is a problem. We owe it to those affected to find a solution. We cannot ignore which races are affected in order to be politically correct. Right now a higher percentage of Black citizens are having trouble finding work. There are many different reasons people can come up with, but the bottom line is that many in the poorer Black communities do not have the skills and education required to get the better jobs that are available today. We have the ability to help this situation, and for all people, not just Black people ...... but to ignore that a higher percentage of Black people are unemployed than other races, is to ignore reality, and to ignore reality is to make finding realistic solutions far more difficult.
If somebody is lacking a education in this country they only have to look in a mirror to find the problem. It's as simple as that. Now do some people who have parents with money have a advantage.... yes they do.... but that has nothing to do with the color of their skin. I am tired of people blaming things on everybody else instead of looking in the mirror.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
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~ Legend
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There's really not much to debate on race here. It's just a matter of being educated on the matter. It's just one side saying it's real, the other giving anecdotal accounts of times they experienced discrimination then saying it happens to everybody.
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I know that's a feel good idea, and it does hold truth in some cases, but for the most part, one's scale on the economic totem pole is largely decided by where one started on the economic totem pole.
Guys like Sam Walton (WalMart), Sheldon Addleson (Vegas), and Howard Shultz (Starbucks) might disagree with you. Let's also not forget people like Clarence Thomas, Herman Cain, and Ben Carson. It can be done. None of these people were even middle class when they started off.
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You had parents that believed in you and that makes all the difference. I still say the number 1 reason people succeed in life is they had good parents. It's a HUGE advantage.
I say the number 1 reason people succeed is "Desire". "Wanting" to succeed is one thing, I "want" and exotic sports car, but I don't have the "desire" to do what needs to be done to acquire it.
If you desire a better life, you will be more inclined to take the steps and risks necessary to achieve it.
Now we could argue the desire, or lack of, can be related to your home life and parental guidance, but more so, I think it is having a role model or a mentor. Someone you look up to and understand their positive influence on your life and beleif in you and your abilities.
This is why many pro players claim high school coaches as their mentors.
Last edited by FloridaFan; 08/08/14 09:12 AM.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
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I know that's a feel good idea, and it does hold truth in some cases, but for the most part, one's scale on the economic totem pole is largely decided by where one started on the economic totem pole.
Guys like Sam Walton (WalMart), Sheldon Addleson (Vegas), and Howard Shultz (Starbucks) might disagree with you. Let's also not forget people like Clarence Thomas, Herman Cain, and Ben Carson. It can be done. None of these people were even middle class when they started off.
Those are all great stories and prove that it is possible, but the exceptions don't make the rule. I'm not familiar with all of them, but the ones on your list that I am familiar with, all had pretty strong family structures, which as has been pointed out, is pretty important.
yebat' Putin
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I know that's a feel good idea, and it does hold truth in some cases, but for the most part, one's scale on the economic totem pole is largely decided by where one started on the economic totem pole.
Those are all great stories and prove that it is possible, but the exceptions don't make the rule. I'm not familiar with all of them, but the ones on your list that I am familiar with, all had pretty strong family structures, which as has been pointed out, is pretty important.
I was just pointing out that there are plenty of rags to riches stories out there, and being born poor or rich does not mean you will stay that way. That is the true beauty of our country. If you have the drive to get rich, you will probably succeed, no matter what your starting circumstances are.
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I know that's a feel good idea, and it does hold truth in some cases, but for the most part, one's scale on the economic totem pole is largely decided by where one started on the economic totem pole.
Guys like Sam Walton (WalMart), Sheldon Addleson (Vegas), and Howard Shultz (Starbucks) might disagree with you. Let's also not forget people like Clarence Thomas, Herman Cain, and Ben Carson. It can be done. None of these people were even middle class when they started off.
I never said it couldn't be done. I even stated 'it does hold truth in some cases'.
But for the most part, it doesn't work that way.
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If you have the drive to get rich, you will probably succeed, no matter what your starting circumstances are.
Not really.
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Just quoting what you quoted because it's easier ..... Quote:
If you have the drive to get rich, you will probably succeed, no matter what your starting circumstances are.
I would say this:
If you have the drive and determination to be successful, then you stand a far, far, far better chance of doing so that the person who has no such drive, and if you apply that drive and determination, you are far more likely to be successful than if you don't.
Not everyone who wants to be rich, and who has drive and determination. However, they stand a far better chance than the guy who lies around like a slug all day long, waiting for success to come to him.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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~ Legend
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Indeed. With 12 million people in the lower class you can find thousands of rags to riches story, but mathematically it's not that much.
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Just quoting what you quoted because it's easier .....
Quote:
If you have the drive to get rich, you will probably succeed, no matter what your starting circumstances are.
I would say this:
If you have the drive and determination to be successful, then you stand a far, far, far better chance of doing so that the person who has no such drive, and if you apply that drive and determination, you are far more likely to be successful than if you don't.
Not everyone who wants to be rich, and who has drive and determination. However, they stand a far better chance than the guy who lies around like a slug all day long, waiting for success to come to him.
Did Damanshot steal your password? 
I don't think anyone's going to argue that if you try hard, you stand a better chance of success than if you don't.
But the notion that if you try really hard, and are determined and driven, chances are you're probably going to rise up the economic totem pole?
It's possible, but it's unlikely.
As I said earlier, one's economic status is life is largely determined by where they started, give or take a few rungs.
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Quote:
Just quoting what you quoted because it's easier .....
Quote:
If you have the drive to get rich, you will probably succeed, no matter what your starting circumstances are.
I would say this:
If you have the drive and determination to be successful, then you stand a far, far, far better chance of doing so that the person who has no such drive, and if you apply that drive and determination, you are far more likely to be successful than if you don't.
Not everyone who wants to be rich, and who has drive and determination. However, they stand a far better chance than the guy who lies around like a slug all day long, waiting for success to come to him.
Thats fine, of course there are the high profile success stories. But what if you're not all that driven to be a mega millionaire? What if your happy to get a HS education, and maybe some trade school, or some community college and get a regular job. Working class. Should working class equal poverty?? You do realize that there are more working poor than there are the welfare bums dont you? Many people are in poverty because the system does not work for the poor who just want to have a decent job and make a decent living. It used to, The American dream does not exist anymore. The middle class is shrinking, if its not gone completely.
KING
You may be in the drivers seat but God is holding the map. #GMSTRONG
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The starting point is determined, but the end is not.
Look at how many people show up in this country with nothing, and create a nice life for themselves and their families. It happens all the time. Other people escape the poverty and negativity that often pervades the projects, and make a solid living for themselves. It happens frequently.
It is usually people who set aside societal messages in their neighborhoods, and who get an education. Those who wok hard t improve their lot in life stand a much, much better chance of doing tso than those who sit around hoping it will happen. There are factors that make it harder for some people than others ..... but those who give up before they start are guaranteed to fail. whereas those who work hard to try to get ahead have a chance of doing just that.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
The starting point is determined, but the end is not.
Look at how many people show up in this country with nothing, and create a nice life for themselves and their families. It happens all the time. Other people escape the poverty and negativity that often pervades the projects, and make a solid living for themselves. It happens frequently.
It is usually people who set aside societal messages in their neighborhoods, and who get an education. Those who wok hard t improve their lot in life stand a much, much better chance of doing tso than those who sit around hoping it will happen. There are factors that make it harder for some people than others ..... but those who give up before they start are guaranteed to fail. whereas those who work hard to try to get ahead have a chance of doing just that.
Again, I'm not arguing that it doesn't happen. I'm saying it's the exception.
The economic status you are born into is most likely the economic status you will find yourself in later in life, no matter how hard you work or how determined you are.
That doesn't mean 'don't bother', but the idea if you put your head down and work hard, and chances are, you'll improve your economic station?
That's not how it works. There are millions and millions of driven and determined people who work hard, but won't escape their economic status. That doesn't mean 'don't bother', but the whole idea that if you're driven and determined to get rich it will 'probably' happen? C'mon.
Speaking of which, John Oliver just did a great piece on his HBO show about the myth of economic mobility in America.
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You're intolerant. Just like the majority if your party.
I understand your point about this being an issue to all people in that Socioeconomic group, but must take exception to this statement. You are wrongly painting a large number of people with a wide brush.
The Constitution shall never be construe to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms. – Samuel Adams
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And I never put odds on it ... all I said is that one way gives a person in that situation a much better possibility of escaping poverty than the other does.
I thin k that it is really hard to become rich. I think that it takes a great idea, and a willingness to risk every single thing you have, including your family relationships in a lot of cases, to become rich. A person usually has to sacrifice everything in order to reach "rich". Ebven then, most often fail repeatedly before reaching "rich". How many times has Donald Trump gone belly up? 2 or 3? It takes a ferocious mindset for someone to keep getting back up when they fail time and again, Most will never sacrifice that much. I know that I could not, and would not. I would sacrifice a great deal of my time, but not my family and friends. I would not risk my house, and all of my possessions ..... and ask my relatives to risk all of their stuff as well. That is what a lot of rich people have done. Even among those with that level of commitment, many fail.
I do think that people can improve their lot in life though ..... and that making your like better for yourself, your family, and your children, is as much a matter of willingness to work your butt off, at menial jobs to start ...... to sacrifice to get an education, and so on. It is less of a sacrifice to improve your lot in life, than it is to become rich ..... but it still takes work. Not everyone is even willing to make this level of sacrifice. Again, not everyone who does is guaranteed to succeed ...... but those who do have a much, much, much better chance than those who don't. (outside of the sports figures, and music performers... and even they make their own sacrifices)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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For the most part, our scale on the economic totem pole is largely up to us.
I know that's a feel good idea, and it does hold truth in some cases, but for the most part, one's scale on the economic totem pole is largely decided by where one started on the economic totem pole.
If, and only if, you choose to allow it to be so.
You will either raise yourself up to where you want to be, or you will not.
If anything, your premise holds true ONLY because people tend to be myopic with their futures and typically fail to see how they can elevate themselves beyond where they are. That doesn't change the fact that everyone is responsible for how far they go in life.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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If, and only if, you choose to allow it to be so.
You will either raise yourself up to where you want to be, or you will not.
Again...absolutely not.
Look...I understand the sentiment, and it's exactly what an individual should follow as a template.
But let's not pretend that it's true. Because it is more fable than fact.
If we took every single person in America who was dedicated and focused and hard working and saved and didn't spend frivolously, and looked at them in terms of economic mobility...the result would not favor the picture many of you have painted. It would favor my assertion.
Again...I understand that the individual should live according to the notion that this were true, as it's more or less necessary for any chance at mobility.
But why must we pretend like it's true?
It's not. It's extremely difficult to achieve economic mobility. We live in a plutocracy. It just doesn't happen much. And on top of that, there's landmines everywhere. Your kid gets sick, you're done. Your radiator goes, and so does a chunk of your savings.
A lot of this is the result of a rigged economic system, and a lot of it is just the luck of the draw.
But we can please shed the myth of 'If you're dedicated, and you work hard, and you save, you're probably going to move up in the world'?
It isn't true. That doesn't mean don't be dedicated or work hard or save or try to better your situation. But to take the fairy tale as a truth is to perpetuate the system.
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So it sounds like your giving the ole liberal lip service to the minorities, its not your fault ,its almost impossible for you to make it ,dont even try because we got your back[not] so just vote for us an keep us in power cause you know those other guys hate you, man thats really working for their faithful followers, while they are getting rich and elected with their class warfare B.S. 
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Riley, I respectfully disagree.
From my POV, there's a certain realism in PDR's assessment.
I'll put it this way (as he already said): To NOT aspire to "the heights" almost guarantees a lack of any success... but to EXPECT "the heights" because one follows the template, is simply not supported by the odds (or reality).
***********************
I saw no lib/con/libertarian philosophy whatsoever in his post, nor did I get some "hidden message" about social safety nets, "don't bother to try," etc. from the things he wrote.
Sometimes, I think that we'd be better-served if we knew THE REAL DEAL going in... that hard work alone won't be enough, that some luck will be involved, and that everyone needs help/gets help along the road to success.
Now, that help may come from a federal/state/local program in some cases. In most other cases, it comes from a connected acquaintance, a sympathetic loan officer at the bank, a prosperous family member, etc. But the myth of the "self-made man" is mostly just that... a fanciful and inspirational tale that's woven into the fabric of the American narrative.
Don't get me wrong: I love that narrative. It was spun to me by My Folks when I was growing up, and it kept me going when I wanted to quit. But the adult in me also realizes that my recent appearance at Carnegie Hall was the result of teachers who helped me, parents who supported me, friends/colleagues who 'hooked me up' to gigs with influential older players, and yes... a Pell grant to help me get back into school.
In other words.... I'm no self-made man.
I'm no gazillionaire, by any means, but I have managed to carve out my own version of the American Dream. I also realize that at any point in this journey, a turn of luck could have scuttled my dreams forever. That realization is what keeps me humbled- and grateful for the life I now have.
I should also tell you that I "give it straight" to my aspiring private students who have dreams of the stage as adults. I tell them what the odds are, what the pitfalls can be, and what it will take to persevere through it all. As their teacher, I'd be doing them a disservice by giving them anything less than the total truth. That truth is this: most of them won't make it. After that, I give them this line: "If I haven't scared you off with the Real Truth about the future, then it's time for us to get down to work. Real Work. HARD work... and I'll do everything I can to help you get what you want. Here's how we'll start-"
Believe it or not, my kids actually appreciate being talked to like adults... and they respect me for telling them like it really is. I see PDR's post in much the same light.
An authentic "American Minority" talking here.... and I simply didn't hear the [cliched] "Liberal Code" in anything he wrote.
.02
Clem
"too many notes, not enough music-"
#GMStong
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Did Damanshot steal your password?
Good God, there's no need for that. Let's keep some semblance of civility around here. 
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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J/C Here's some raw data...  
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The starting point is determined, but the end is not.
Look at how many people show up in this country with nothing, and create a nice life for themselves and their families. It happens all the time. Other people escape the poverty and negativity that often pervades the projects, and make a solid living for themselves. It happens frequently.
It is usually people who set aside societal messages in their neighborhoods, and who get an education. Those who wok hard t improve their lot in life stand a much, much better chance of doing tso than those who sit around hoping it will happen. There are factors that make it harder for some people than others ..... but those who give up before they start are guaranteed to fail. whereas those who work hard to try to get ahead have a chance of doing just that.
Again, I'm not arguing that it doesn't happen. I'm saying it's the exception.
The economic status you are born into is most likely the economic status you will find yourself in later in life, no matter how hard you work or how determined you are.
That doesn't mean 'don't bother', but the idea if you put your head down and work hard, and chances are, you'll improve your economic station?
That's not how it works. There are millions and millions of driven and determined people who work hard, but won't escape their economic status. That doesn't mean 'don't bother', but the whole idea that if you're driven and determined to get rich it will 'probably' happen? C'mon.
Speaking of which, John Oliver just did a great piece on his HBO show about the myth of economic mobility in America.
PDR, I get what your saying, but doesn't a lot of this depend upon how the end game is defined?
What is "rich"?
What is "success"?
Heck, I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what "living wage" means!
I don't dispute the stats that most everyone will die in the same economic bracket they were born in. But really, how many people in each bracket are hell bent determined to move in to another bracket? To me its not enough to just say "I want to be rich". I'd love to be a billionaire, but so far I haven't had a billion dollar idea. I'd love to make 6 digits, but honestly I haven't put in the time and effort to do what it takes.
I think the premise about working hard and diligently leads to success IS sound. But I also think that the number of people that would fit that description is comparatively infinitesimal. There's no way to prove this, but I'd be willing to bet that if you surveyed the number of people who fit this description, the majority of them % would be have found success (as they define it).
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things."
-Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
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That doesn't mean 'don't bother', but the idea if you put your head down and work hard, and chances are, you'll improve your economic station?
That's not how it works. There are millions and millions of driven and determined people who work hard, but won't escape their economic status. That doesn't mean 'don't bother', but the whole idea that if you're driven and determined to get rich it will 'probably' happen? C'mon.
Hard work doesn't make you rich, hard work, good decisions, and a little luck make you rich... but this is one thing I don't like about this argument and King pointed it out. The goal should not be "to get rich"... the goal should be "to be happy"... and most people who are struggling to pay their bills are not happy because of carrying that stress.
It takes more than hard work. If you go get a job with a shovel digging holes and making $9/hour, you can be the best hole digger ever and you aren't going to improve your economic situation unless you have a plan to advance (because there is a ceiling on what you can charge for a guy with a shovel).... so you have to go from shovel to driving a backhoe, from backhoe to foreman, from foreman to superintendent, from superintendent to project manager, etc... You might be 45 years old before you get there but you can get there.
Along the way it takes making a lot of other smart decisions (both professional and non-professional) like don't have kids until you can afford them, if you get married stay married because its hard to get out of poverty paying child support, squeeze in some classes along the way to make yourself more promotable, keep your record clean, save/spend your money wisely not on $2000 rims $1500 truck tires $1800 stereos or lottery tickets, join some professional associations and network with people who are where you want to be and learn from them, don't bad-mouth the bosses and talk about them behind their backs because ultimately they are the ones who will promote you, be prepared for some setbacks along the way...
Nobody said it's easy but it can be done. In general it takes longer term planning, which as I've said before, the poor are not used to, it's a skill they are usually not taught and that they don't necessarily learn from watching their parents or the people around them.
If you take a poor person and start talking about how they can be the next Sam Walton, all you are doing is setting them up for failure because the odds of that happening are about the same as winning the lottery.
yebat' Putin
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Actually you are right about the fact that it sounded like i was calling PDR,s post a purely lib. one but it wasnt intended to be because I respect his[PDR.s] opinions , and fairness so my bad. BUT,hey if you disagree with my assessment on the lib. talking points that I eluded to so be it.
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