Only thing I saw was mediocre performances at best by both Hoyer and Manziel. I don't see why people got their undies in a wad already.
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
I'll reserve judgment until after I see Johnny Monday night. I originally was dead set on Hoyer, but the tides in my mind have shifted
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
We have guys dissing the rook after one preseason game. We have guys picking the rook over the vet- after one preseason game. We have guys challenging others to "pick one or the other"... after one preseason game. We have guys making predictions about 2 QB's who have the same amount of time in a brand-new offense, with brand-new coaches under a brand-new FO.
You know what? I'm actually stoked at the fact that we Browns fans have 2 legit-looking QB's chomping at the bit to play their best for us.
For the first time in 15 years.
That's truly enough for me at this point. I'm content to watch this whole thing play out... because BOTH look better than almost anything we've had in the past.
It's a "good problem" to have, you know?
Yup.. That's about right.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: Think what you want. Johnny Manziel is a WAY better QB than Brian Hoyer.
That's projection I admit, but , pick one....here....now....do you take Brian or Johnny? A question for the board.....one or the other. I don't want to hear this, that, or the other. JUST a name.
I take Johnny Football
I can't make that determination yet. I'm certainly happy for you that you can. But until I see otherwise, as of today, Brian Hoyer is the better QB. However, I do believe that long term (and that may be weeks not months), Johnny Manziel will prevail. JMO
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Pettine is the only one who has to pick a guy, and he can change his mind. I saw some negatives in JM's play and Hoyer was not overpowering or compelling. Our QB choice must produce, not be named by default because of the other guy's performance being good enough. Better than might not be what I want to build on.
Point is this, and it is almost heresy with the critics, media, and self-appointed experts on both sides of the fence: I am willing to pull for both guys now to improve all they can. Can't swing a cat around here without whacking somebody certain they have The Answer as to The Choice. Spare me. I want to see good football played well and we win. Chances are good we need them both. Just win, baby.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
Damanshot and Clem, spot on. Root for anybody taking snaps who is NOT Flipperesque. I doubt Pettine will "go with his gut" to decide. I trust Shanahan as advisor, too. Much more than some in the past.
Whoever is picked I will root for him and his backup. It is what fans do. The BSPN lovecrush had to go somewhere after Neon Deion and Ray Lewis hype died off. Until he does something in the NFL, JM is just the flavor of the day. Enormous upside admittedly, and I think he may be The Man. He is exciting. And unproven and unknown to this point.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
Quote: Can't swing a cat around here without whacking somebody certain they have The Answer as to The Choice. Spare me.
Epic.
In preface to my initial post in the Good, Bad, Ugly thread I mentioned that in the first preseason game it was the first game action any of them saw since December of last year so all evaluations have to be taken with that as a consideration.
Now that they've shaken off some of the rust, gotten the feel again for hitting and being hit and having been reintroduced to the speed of a game, this next game should be a better indicator of how the team's doing.
The downside, for that poor cat, is that even more people will be even more certain they have the Answer even if they've changed their minds since the first game.
Quote: Damanshot and Clem, spot on. Root for anybody taking snaps who is NOT Flipperesque. I doubt Pettine will "go with his gut" to decide. I trust Shanahan as advisor, too. Much more than some in the past.
Whoever is picked I will root for him and his backup. It is what fans do. The BSPN lovecrush had to go somewhere after Neon Deion and Ray Lewis hype died off. Until he does something in the NFL, JM is just the flavor of the day. Enormous upside admittedly, and I think he may be The Man. He is exciting. And unproven and unknown to this point.
Please tell me your kidding? "Johnny Football" looked like a bum out there the other night. 1. not kidding 2. I think you've missed where I have stated he has to sit and learn. 2014 is Hoyer's year to shine. 3. This isn't a fan camp clearly you are in a Hoyer camp. Cause your take on Manziel was sort of Ridiculous. 4. I do agree with you to some degree on Hoyer. Unfortunately he is unproven on what he can do for the season. I'm pretty sure he is the best to start and have repeatedly stated so. This does not however diminish his Franchise QB status of the future. Actually in my eyes this insures he will become that franchise QB cause I think if JM starts it could provide him a bad environment to progress properly.
5. Baby Brady btw is in how he prepares. Results cannot be expected as the same.
Summary: I want Hoyer to start I want what is best for the Browns - I have seen enough of Manziel to know he isn't a dud but the real deal. HE STILL NEEDS to progress and GET IT before he becomes our Franchise QB but the odds are great that it will happen.
Your bit about his character issues is a load of Crapola! He's just a kid partying and obeying the law. Oh wait he rolled up a $20
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Saturday night featured the highest-rated NFL preseason game of all time, a mildly fierce battle between the Browns and the Lions. It was all about Johnny Manziel who, despite denials from Browns coach Mike Pettine, clearly closed the gap on incumbent starter Brian Hoyer.
Pettine, speaking on ESPN Radio's Mike & Mike Wednesday, acknowledged Manziel has "been impressive" and said he's "slightly ahead" of where the Browns expected him to be.
"He's been impressive. He's probably slightly ahead of the learning curve where we figured he would've been," Pettine said. "I think a big part of it for him is it's essentially him getting the playbook and it has been for a while. And I think he's finally starting to settle down with it."
Pettine praised the increase in Manziel's vocabulary and his ability to process more and more information, adding he has to know what other guys on the offense are doing as well.
"It's just a lot of information to process. And he's done a good job of it," Pettine said. "We're very pleased with where he is."
Manziel obviously hasn't progressed far enough for Pettine to do anything crazy like name him the starter. Pettine said all along the plan was for Cleveland to name a starter before Week 3 of the preseason, which means Manziel and Brian Hoyer are in a dead sprint to win the starting job for Week 1.
The process for picking that starter will involve four people in the organization and, potentially, some fierce debate. But no "external pressure," Pettine claims.
"I have two guys that know quarterback play really well in Kyle Shanahan and Dowell Loggains. And we'll sit down, the three of us, probably include Ray Farmer as well so he can hear us debate it back and forth," Pettine said. "It's all going to come down to who can give us the best chance to win a football game. And we're not going to feel pressure -- I know there's the external pressure of a lot of people want to see the rookie out there. We understand that. But we're in the football business here and we have to make the decision we feel is best for the Cleveland Browns.
"I think it's a good problem -- I know it's a good problem to have because we have two quarterbacks we feel are capable enough to make plays to win football games," Pettine said.
Pettine may have put himself in a wee bit of a corner while trying to give himself a little freedom; he used the phrase "week-to-week" when discussing his starting quarterback situation (as well as all his position players).
"When you declare a starter -- this for all positions, not just quarterback -- it's a week-to-week basis," Pettine said. "Our guys have to feel there's competition there. Once they earn a job Week 1, that's not guaranteed through Week 16 or Week 17, let alone Week 2. It's a fine line. You don't want guys thinking 'Hey, if I make one mistake I'm out,' and you might have a little bit more leeway with the quarterback position.
"You name a starter, and I think you have to be very shortsighted with your view that this is for the first game and we'll always be in evaluation mode."
Speaking of evaluating people, Pettine also praised Manziel's work ethic in the film room, training room, etc., saying "you wouldn't know" he has a party "persona" once the season starts.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: However, I do believe that long term (and that may be weeks not months), Johnny Manziel will prevail. JMO
So we agree. Thanks.
Yes, we agree that JM is the long term answer. We seem to disagree on when it will come to light. I'm not at all convinced that he will or even should start the first REAL game. At least not after seeing him on Saturday.
Now, having said that, this coming game, it's been reported that we will see him with the 1st team Oline and skill players. This would be the first time we've been able to watch him with the best players we have. So a comparison with Hoyer after this up coming game will have sound meaning.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Quote: "I think it's a good problem -- I know it's a good problem to have because we have two quarterbacks we feel are capable enough to make plays to win football games," Pettine said.
Pettine may have put himself in a wee bit of a corner while trying to give himself a little freedom; he used the phrase "week-to-week" when discussing his starting quarterback situation (as well as all his position players).
"When you declare a starter -- this for all positions, not just quarterback -- it's a week-to-week basis," Pettine said. "Our guys have to feel there's competition there. Once they earn a job Week 1, that's not guaranteed through Week 16 or Week 17, let alone Week 2. It's a fine line. You don't want guys thinking 'Hey, if I make one mistake I'm out,' and you might have a little bit more leeway with the quarterback position.
"You name a starter, and I think you have to be very shortsighted with your view that this is for the first game and we'll always be in evaluation mode."
I agree with him in theory but you can't keep yanking QBs.. I've seen that movie before, it never ends well.
despite denials from Browns coach Mike Pettine, clearly closed the gap on incumbent starter Brian Hoyer.
I find it funny that CBS writer thinks he know and what he knows is obvious. He don't know....you have to know what the GAP was to "KNOW" for a fact he has closed it.
JM is who he is - Pettine has said that he's further along with the Playbook than they expected.
Just remember one thing. Colt McCoy knew the play book but he didn't know how to execute the plays. this whole process takes time. Hoyer has been in the playbook before JM got drafted and is further along. Also he can process it to understand the execution of the play within the parameters of the NFL talent.
If we had just a Weeden, Just a BQ - JM would be named the starter by now.
Oh for the Baby Brady guy...how did Hoyer become baby Brady...he learned! Well what we want is JM to be Baby Brady II and his skill set is much greater.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
I think that it is obvious that Manziel is improving. I think that is what the writer meant, and said.
He has clearly improved at the line of scrimmage, and throwing from the pocket,
Those are 2 areas he needed to improve upon in order to "close the gap" on Hoyer.
I sometimes think that some of you guys read more into articles than is really there.
Last edited by YTownBrownsFan; 08/13/1411:50 AM.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Which part is that Ytown...the part where Pettine "denies" there is any substantial gap being closed?
Or the author...As you stated "OBVIOUSLY" JM would be better than he was from LOS and some of those things. But that is what was expected of him. Pettine has mentioned he was farther along and then specified his knowledge of the playbook. There was not mention about his technique being farther along than expected.
I"m not the one reading between the lines here. I'm just stating what the HC has said. and scoff at the Bozo's saying don't listen to what he says...after all the BOZO knows better
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off! Go Browns! CHRIST HAS RISEN! GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
Quote: It was all about Johnny Manziel who, despite denials from Browns coach Mike Pettine, clearly closed the gap on incumbent starter Brian Hoyer.
Clearly the opinion of the writer.
Opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. It is not, in any way, presented as something Pettine said, but rather presented as the writer's opinion, in contrast to what Pettine said.
I don't see that as bad reporting, especially when it is as clear as can be for anyone actually reading the article.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
Quote: It was all about Johnny Manziel who, despite denials from Browns coach Mike Pettine, clearly closed the gap on incumbent starter Brian Hoyer.
Clearly the opinion of the writer.
Opinion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. It is not, in any way, presented as something Pettine said, but rather presented as the writer's opinion, in contrast to what Pettine said.
I don't see that as bad reporting, especially when it is as clear as can be for anyone actually reading the article.
I just think we'll know a lot more (without media opinion) after this next game if JM actually gets time with the 1's. Then you can compare apples to apples.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.” Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe." Damanshot
Agreed ... What was the play designed to do? He should of thrown it, that was what the play and situation called for doing. Dont wanna hear if's on who would or would not catch it. Thats a lame basis for your argument.
How do you know what the play called for? Sheesh!
I sometimes think that Ohio fans can't handle success. The BB folks are complaining even though we got LeBron, Love, and other free agents who can help us.
JM plays well in the opener and people are complaining HOW he got a first down.
It's like you enjoy losing and being miserable and have no idea how to handle success.
Cuz Im have a clue and i guess maybe u dont.
I guess its not obvious to you, that the fb is running a route and not blocking. Or that the FB was wide open. but it was only one play so dont go overboard versatile
There are going to be times when Manziel has a decision to make, early in his career it shouldn't surprise anybody if he defaults to running a little bit more than he probably should. That's how he has played the game since he was probably 8 years old. It's not going to change in a few weeks or even months.
A quote from QB Coach, Loggins from the link in pblack's post above...
"Loggains had no problem with Manziel running on fourth-and-1 instead of dumping it off to wide-open fullback Ray Agnew.
"It was a plus (in the grade book) because this is a production business and he got the first down,'' said Loggains. "That stuff changes a little bit if it doesn't happen, but there was a guy in his view and he had to get around and you saw him when he sidestepped it a little bit, he was looking to make the play then and he saw the first-down marker and made a heck of a play to get the first down.''
Some of this QB talk is academic, because in a 16 game season, I promise you we will need BOTH quarterbacks. Not wishing for any injury, but they are a usual reality in the NFL. As a big JF fan and a big Hoyer fan, we need them both to improve in all areas, because BOTH will see action.
A quote from QB Coach, Loggins from the link in pblack's post above...
"Loggains had no problem with Manziel running on fourth-and-1 instead of dumping it off to wide-open fullback Ray Agnew.
"It was a plus (in the grade book) because this is a production business and he got the first down,'' said Loggains. "That stuff changes a little bit if it doesn't happen, but there was a guy in his view and he had to get around and you saw him when he sidestepped it a little bit, he was looking to make the play then and he saw the first-down marker and made a heck of a play to get the first down.''
yea. he also said. Johnny did a great job sliding and getting down
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
Quick, find the one play where he was trying to make a play and get the first down, don't show the other 4 or 5 times when he slid or got out of bounds..
Quote: Quick, find the one play where he was trying to make a play and get the first down, don't show the other 4 or 5 times when he slid or got out of bounds..
ok.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
The quote that I quoted from the article you posted said nothing about him sliding on that play. The quote was about that one play and whether or not he should have thrown to the FB.
The reason I singled it out and quoted it is because that is the play so many are saying he made a mistake not throwing it, yet his QB Coach was fine with it.
As to your videos, he did go in head first the first two times. After that he slid feet first or simply stayed on his feet out of bounds.
Manziel played like a rookie in his first NFL action. He didn't play poorly but he didn't do anything special either. Looked about as expected. Everything else is media hype.
Hoyer played like a guy coming off a 8-month+ injury and rehab. He didn't play poorly but he didn't do anything special either. Looked as expected. Everything else is media hope.
I don't give 2 craps about what the "media" thinks about us, or whether we get all this extra attention and national games and best announcers or not due to Manziel. That's media circus hoopla and it fades as fast as it comes on. You know when I DO want all this media attention? When we're a perennial 10+ game winner and playoff participant and legit super bowl contender. Until then, I could care less.
Neither QB did a darn thing against Detroit to get us closer to that goal IMO. Those of you firmly in either QB camp as our "sure fire franchise QB" are practicing wishful thinking at best or are having delusions of grandeur at worst. Based on 3 games last year and 1 preseason game this year I think Hoyer gives us a better chance this year, but I'll be damned if I know that we have even ONE legit QB on this roster yet.
Call me when one of the QB's has led us to the playoffs for multiple seasons. Until then all this is pointless rabble.
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
Quote: The quote that I quoted from the article you posted said nothing about him sliding on that play. The quote was about that one play and whether or not he should have thrown to the FB.
The reason I singled it out and quoted it is because that is the play so many are saying he made a mistake not throwing it, yet his QB Coach was fine with it.
As to your videos, he did go in head first the first two times. After that he slid feet first or simply stayed on his feet out of bounds.
yea and I am just pointing out the guy gushes all over JFF. wouldn't surprise me its the reason Rex Grossman was brought in. just to work with Hoyer.
looked to me for the most part JFF just stared down his first read and if it wasn't there he ran. only saw 2 plays where he looked for his other reads.
as for the play your talking about? he should have passed it. you don't gain team trust by trying to do it all yourself. have to trust the people you are throwing to.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
Quote: We seem to disagree on when it will come to light. I'm not at all convinced that he will or even should start the first REAL game. At least not after seeing him on Saturday.
I think if you read around....maybe this thread or another I have said JM probably won't start unless he is well ahead of Hoyer. It's a whole lot easier to start with Hoyer and then toss the ball to Johnny then it will be to start Johnny and have to toss the ball back to Hoyer. That would be bad. When we finally hand Johnny the ball, it's 2-3 years minimum.
That said....if we do go with Johnny.....I move Hoyer in a instant. Maybe part of those trade rumors....who knows if there is anything to them or not??
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Quote: as for the play your talking about? he should have passed it. you don't gain team trust by trying to do it all yourself. have to trust the people you are throwing to.
You gain trust by being good. Getting first downs is a good thing.
Quote: as for the play your talking about? he should have passed it. you don't gain team trust by trying to do it all yourself. have to trust the people you are throwing to.
You gain trust by being good. Getting first downs is a good thing.
Don't argue with him. He'll take you down to what if the 3rd stringer gets hurt.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.
Quote: as for the play your talking about? he should have passed it. you don't gain team trust by trying to do it all yourself. have to trust the people you are throwing to.
You gain trust by being good. Getting first downs is a good thing.
and getting a first down the right way is even better.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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