DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum What is the contingency plan at quarterback beyond these next two games?

I'm trying to ride this fence carefully...

I think the number one goal is to develop Johnny, and right now, it's trial by fire, but I think they will need to practice patience. Some of the mistakes he made last week are things that live reps, and stability with players/coaches, and just overall time can correct...

I think he needs to learn to stay in the pocket and go through those first few progressions. He doesn't need to stand there for 10 seconds like Brady does, but just those first couple. I think his arm looked weaker, because he wasn't planting and throwing. Whereas, in the Buffalo game, you saw him really zip some passes down the field, because the pass rush was a bit backed of because of the lead, and probably a bit from the surprise of Buffalo to even see him out there. (I dunno about you guys, but prior to him being thrown in, I thought Pettine would live and die with Hoyer all year)

With all that said, patience is sooo important, but I think it's more tha fair as fans to expect more than what we saw Sunday, right? I mean, we can develop a QB, and still not look as bad as we did.

I personally don't think he's going to play well Sunday, or in Baltimore the following week, should he start there. This offense is broken, and he just doesn't have a firm grip enough to change the tide. I really hope Johnny Manziel takes everything that happened to him this year, the draft, the scrutiny, losing his job, having every little part of his life examined, to everything that happened Sunday and for the rest of the year, to heart, and this offseason becomes OBSESSED with getting better, and with moving this team forward.

With Johnny Manziel's upside uncertain, Browns will explore Marcus Mariota and every QB option: Mary Kay Cabot

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._social_feature

By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group on December 20, 2014 at 6:57 PM, updated December 20, 2014 at 7:07 PM

CHARLOTTE, N.C. -- With coach Mike Pettine admitting this week that the Browns will have doubts about Johnny Manziel even if he hits "it out of the park'' in the final two games and "a ton of doubts'' if he doesn't play well, the Browns will explore all of their options at quarterback, including trading up into the top five to draft Heisman Trophy winner Marcus Mariota.

Browns general manager Ray Farmer has repeatedly said that he'll always explore every option at all positions -- and Mariota is one glaring and tempting possibility for the Browns this offseason. The Browns have scouted him this season and will continue to do so.

It would be an incredible longshot, but not impossible.

Since last year, league sources have been telling cleveland.com that Farmer is enamored with Mariota, the 6-4, 215 phenom from Oregon. Mariota cemented his status as the top quarterback in the draft -- and likely No. 1 overall pick -- with another terrific season for the high-flying Ducks.

If the Browns reach the conclusion after Manziel's three starts that he's not their quarterback of the future, they'll consider every possibility for an upgrade at the position, including making a pitch for the premier quarterback in the draft.

The Browns will have two mid-first round picks in 2015, their own and the one they received from Buffalo in the trade down from No. 4 to No. 9. (they then moved back up a spot to take cornerback Justin Gilbert at No. 8). The Browns would likely have to trade both of those picks, and next year's No. 1 for a shot at Mariota.

If the season ended today, the Browns would have the No. 14 (their own) and No. 19 (Buffalo's) picks in the first round. The price tag for Mariota would be similar to what the Redskins paid the Rams to move up from No. 6 to No. 2 in 2012: two more No. 1s and a No. 2.

But if Mariota is as good as advertised, he could be worth it.

After Mariota, the next best quarterback in the draft is Florida State's Jameis Winston, who comes with a ton of off-the-field baggage, unlike the squeaky-clean Heisman Trophy winner. The one knock against Mariota is that he might actually be too nice and might need to develop the requisite edge to succeed at this level.

If Manziel doesn't show enough flashes of the Johnny Football he was at Texas A&M over these next two games, the Browns might even consider trading him and cutting their losses. With Cowboys owner Jerry Jones admitting on several occasions earlier this season that he regrets passing on Manziel at No. 16, perhaps he'd still be willing to part with a pick for him. The Browns haven't made a huge financial investment in Manziel, and wouldn't be out much from a financial standpoint if he doesn't work out.

His four-year contract is worth $8.248 million, including $7.998 million guaranteed. He averages $2.062 million a year. For comparison's sake, Browns defensive tackle Ahtyba Rubin has made $20.3 million over the last three seasons, including $6.6 million this year alone.

Of course, the Browns might also decide that three games is too small a sample to give up on their No. 22 overall pick. Offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan said this week that he still feels the same way about Manziel and that "Johnny's a playmaker.'' Shanahan seems convinced he can bring the best out in Manziel once he really grasps the offense.

But if Manziel is going to live up to his first-round status, he'll have to work harder than he ever has in his life -- and certainly harder than he has this season. Manziel might think he's been grinding, but it's nothing compared to the level of dedication and commitment it takes to be great in this league. Even if he puts in all the necessary time and effort in the offseason, he still might not have what it takes.

Or he might. The Browns won't know for sure until next season when he has a full offseason to study the playbook and a full training camp as the starter under his belt.

Even if the Browns conclude that Manziel can be their franchise quarterback, they'll still need to find a veteran who can step in and win games for them in the event he can't cut it. Next year can't be all about developing a young quarterback. After the Browns got a taste of winning this season and remained in the AFC North race until week 14, owner Jimmy Haslam won't tolerate losing next season -- and he'll undoubtedly expect a playoff berth in his third full year.

Brian Hoyer is actually one of the best quarterbacks set to hit the free agent market after this season. But will the Browns want to head into 2015 with Manziel and Hoyer again, especially after Hoyer's late-season four-game tailspin? Manziel's failure last week to provide the spark the Browns were seeking from the quarterback position against the Bengals somewhat vindicates Hoyer, but the Browns still don't view him as a long-term starting answer.

Besides, with as many as a dozen teams looking for a starter next season, Hoyer will likely get some looks as a No. 1 -- or at least have a chance to compete for a job. If he garners only backup attention, he'd probably consider re-signing with the Browns because he wants to raise his family here.

The way he's handled the aftermath of his benching has kept the door open for him to return in some capacity. Hoyer handled it like a true pro and helped Manziel and Shanahan during the game last week.

"He's handled it exactly how you would have expected him to handle it,'' said Pettine. "He's very mature, professional, team guy, wants us to win. Does it sit well with him, what happened? Absolutely not. He's made that clear, and knowing the type of competitor that he is, it wouldn't be any other way. Absolutely, what you see with Brian is what we're getting.''

If Hoyer leaves in free agency and the Browns still think Manziel can be the guy, they'll need to find another veteran somewhere -- either on the market, on the street or through a trade.

Chicago's Jay Cutler - who's 44-37 with the Bears -- will likely be available, but he comes with a huge price tag, including $15.5 million guaranteed next year for any team that trades for him. Besides, Farmer has made it clear that he doesn't think it takes a marquee quarterback to compete at the highest level. The Browns are all about building the team around the quarterback, who only has to compliment the supporting cast, not carry it.

Griffin III might become available -- and enjoyed his greatest success as a rookie under Shanahan -- but he seemed to blame the Shanahans for his second-season woes, and that ship may have sailed. Other quarterbacks poised to hit the market are Jake Locker, Michael Vick, Ryan Mallett, Mark Sanchez (whom Pettine liked when they were in New York together), Christian Ponder, Colt McCoy and Jason Campbell. Shanahan also likes Redskins backup Kirk Cousins, who showed promise when Shanahan coached him.

The Browns also have developmental quarterback Connor Shaw on their practice squad, and he's impressed the staff this season with his ability and work ethic.
Of course, Manziel can make the organization breathe a little easier by playing well against the 5-8-1 Panthers on Sunday and next week in Baltimore. Even if he doesn't win, he can show enough that they might not feel compelled to spend another high pick on a quarterback.

"Everybody's going to have an off day, and for us, obviously it wasn't our best day,'' Manziel said of his disappointing debut. "It wasn't the way that I wanted to get my start off here in Cleveland. Obviously, I didn't want to come out and lay an egg like that my first start, especially at home.

"Nobody wants that, but at the same time, one game doesn't define you as a player. It doesn't define you. Really, what defines you is how you bounce back from that and what you do in the following weeks.''

But as Pettine noted, three games does not a franchise quarterback make, and the Browns will have to keep everything on the table in the offseason -- even a blockbuster trade for another Heisman Trophy winner.



(end)

I think after a year of non stop hard work did wear Hoyer down, the rehab followed by TC and then the season just left Hoyer with an empty tank, he will bounce back. You think about this the guy went thru ACL surgery then started his rehab and took less then a hand full of days off between then and now he simply has mentally and physically worked himself to the point of exhaustion.

I doubt Hoyer ever viewed JF as a problem for him in any way and after seeing JF play I agree he isn't Hoyer equal on any level that should be evident to all of us at this point. The looking over his shoulder thing is pure fantasy the thing Hoyer couldn't overcome was a coaching staff that doesn't know how to handle a QB in the NFL and ownership that loves the persona of a player that can't live up to, nor does he work hard enough to ever be a serious NFL QB. Sure it was factor in that sense, but a small one. To much work and to little play was the issue with Hoyer.

It takes time in the league as the actual starter to know how to prepare and handle all of the things you have to deal with to know success I'm shocked actually that no one has cut Hoyer a ounce of slack the guy had 4 bad games has a record of 10-6 as our starter and we ditch him for a lazy party animal who can't read defenses and is who Hodges said he is 6th round talent. What you all have bought is the hype the actual player is worse then Weedon and BQ, and throw in DA just for good measure. I don't wish for that to be so it just is.

But you go ahead Pit tell me what it is you have scene so far from JF that says to you Franchise QB. I get the part about a flash here abnd there tell me about the flashes you have scene.... Didn't think so................

Nothing can prepare a QB for a season of starting. Every QB has hit a wall at some point in their 1st season of starting it happens its ugly and it happens. But why the double standard Pit? Why prop up JF while putting Hoyer down, not to mention most of the JF rah rah club are now preaching patience, but Hoyer NEVER had as bad a game as JF and yet in his 1st season every throw every un perfect throw was used as proof that Hoyer wasn't the guy.

That being the case why is the standard different for JF?



After watching you all pile on Hoyer you have the guts to say that. Listen I will admit that you all never actually said it, but it was always there right bellow the surface. In other words you all stopped just short of saying it. It ticked me off then and you saying that now after the way you all worked Hoyer over and in light of the fabulous start JF produced what did you all expect???

The double standard sickens me, why not call for the benching of JF after all you advocated benching Hoyer for play that was worlds better then the crap we witnessed last week. Because he is a 1st round pick right??? 1st 2nd 3rd 4th don't care if you can play then you should play and if you can't and you don't. The 1st round excuse also sickens me, If they suck it doesn't matter what round they came from. If they don't put in the work and effort it doesn't matter what round they came from, and the flip side is the guy that does put in the work and effort and that is the guy you want.

Advocating for JF based on draft status is a weak argument and not worthy of taking serious IMO.

So after Hoyer sucked for 4-5 games.. and finally got benched for it..

Johnny should get benched after sucking for one game..

And everyone else is the one with a double standard..

Maybe in the future we as a team should just carry one QB on the roster at a time.. there would be 100% less drama...

I thought drafting a QB in the first round this year was a mistake. I wanted to see what Hoyer could do as the guy. Now that I've seen it, I still wouldn't mind keeping him, but am cautious as to what happened to him the last few games.

Fine but if you keep BH you have to trade JM IMO. Then maybe sign a guy like Mallet.

It has more to do with the degree of suckage JF sucked at a level you can't even say wow well he did this well or he even had a good series the Browns had a total of 5 1st downs and 2 of those 5 came via penalty its hard to imagine it could ever be any worse, so yeah in light of several facts JF needs to go back to his world (the bench)

He simply isn't anywhere close to being ready if he were then sure roll with him. If the Browns are intent on finding out what they have in him they are about to be sadly disappointed, because he obviously isn't ready. And the message Pet has lived by all season is that the player that gives the Browns the BEST chance to win plays. That is now meaningless. There is NO WAY you believe that JF gives us the best chance to win, do you???

This entire season has been a total mishandling of the QB position by Pet and his staff. Trotting out a player to see what you have is one thing, but when your asked what do you think you'll see saying I don't know is beyond stupid. It says it doesn't matter to me and really to the players who have put in the work to get better and contribute because we are intent on handing the ball to a guy that they and the entire team knows isn't ready, its a huge risk to the team, and the player himself.

Success at this level comes when a player is ready and JF isn't ready and playing him isn't going to get him ready. He needs to work like every other player and maybe more but at this point JF even after 1 game has sent a clear message and that is I'm not ready.

I will say this as well, I don't see anything that even looks remotely like the skill set of a winning NFL QB, if you have please point it out. Thanks in advance.

I hope this is something that Mary Kay is simply fabricating.

Mariotta is a very similar to Manziel. Neither are good at reading defenses and coverages.

Mariotta makes one read and then runs. He doesn't see more than half the field. Heck, he is looking at about a quarter of the field on the majority of his throws.

Again, I hope it is just a silly rumor, but after last year's first round fiasco, who knows what Farmer will do?

I agree with this %100, after watching some highlights of Mariotta he just looks like a bigger version of JM. I fear it would be a huge risk and a mistake to mortgage everything to try and get him. It has RG3 written all over it.

Well, for crying out loud, where does everyone else find these great QBs? The Bradys, the Mannings, the Lucks, the Favres, the Rodgers ... where is this secret city of franchise QB's and how do we get there? It defies reason that we would be 15 years in with this version of the Browns and STILL the QB position remains a mystery. Its absolutely maddening. In the last few years we've drafted two shrimps to play QB and one prototypically sized and skilled guy with a shrimpy brain. It has to be an organizational failure, but its been right down the line from Savage to Mangini to Holmgren to Lombardi (LOL) to Farmer. At some point this franchise has to look in the mirror and say "we don't know how to do this" (find a QB) so we're going to offer a large sum of money to Gil Brandt, Charlie Casserly, Ron Wolf ... somebody ... to come in here and consult on this next draft.

Hoyer is gone. He won't be back.

If Johnny looks really bad they will bring in a vet for him to compete against. If he shows some signs they will still bring in a vet but not one that threatens Johnny. They will use these three game to evaluate what peices we need around Johnny.

That will be the plan.

Like it or NOT I see no way the Browns pass up Hoyer. Everything I have scene or read and for that matter believe says there is a better option for the Browns going forward then Hoyer. It would plain be the stupidest possible move by this franchise.

If JF is who a good many of you think he is beating out Hoyer would be a formality. The biggest problem the Browns face is how to get Hoyer to sign up for another go. At the very least the Browns will tag Hoyer if they don't we have idiots on our hands and their fate will be decided by their stupidity....

Not getting a draft pick out of Hoyer would be epic stupid at the very least..............

I have serious doubts about Johnny Football, but I just don't see what you folks see in Hoyer. No team - no team - is going to hold a presser and announce with fanfare that this is their big free agent signing and presumptive starter. He throws as many picks and TDs, has a weak arm, can't run and is not accurate.
He's beloved in Cleveland (in some quarters) because he's from there and he led a couple of dramatic comebacks (usually after playing badly all game).
Name a team that would sign him and introduce him as their starter.

There is a lot of game film on Hoyer and defenses have figured him out. The guy played himself out of the starting role. Hoyer is not coming back. Better believe that.



I've never liked the JF draft pick and wanted Hoyer to get his shot. But the guy dropped off just like Derek Anderson did. It's time to see what JF can do and he will get two more games this year and all next year and if he is as bad as you believe he is then we will draft a new QB in two drafts and probably have a bunch of other issues as well like replacing Joe Thomas and so on. Even though I didn't want JF I'm rooting for him to succeed because the alternative is the browns going through another rebuild.

Not going to happen.

The tag will be used on Jordan Cameron. They won't use it on a career back up QB, if they did then that would be stupid.

There is not a single team out there that would give up a draft pick for Hoyer. This comment makes no sense.

Franchise tag Brian Hoyer? Yeah... I just cannot see that happening in any way, shape or form. You don't franchise someone you benched for a rookie cause they were playing crap football over a four game plus span. Especially at the QB.

The staff would be incredibly stupid to tag him and smart to let him walk if he wants anything more than a back-up contract dollar amounts.

He has a better chance to get tagged during deer season than during free agency lol

Dak Prescott, Bryce Petty, Bo Wallace. Then we can keep our draft picks and actually build the team. Trading up will keep us in this mediocre status 3 to 5 more years

j/c

I don't necessarily get why so many people talk as if it's one (Manziel) or the other (Hoyer). There is a very real chance it's neither. (ugh)

But I highly doubt Hoyer is back on this team next year unless it is for a backup QB contract.

I also don't understand how people think we can get a draft pick out of Hoyer....the trade deadline is over and Hoyer will be a FA.

The answer to my stupidity lies in the fact that there just isn't a QB coming into the off season FA period that is better then Hoyer.. Do the math tag him with a right to match just like Mack. If need be which looks more and more likely you do a match and trade or if as I suspect JF implodes you still have Hoyer. But letting him walk with only the JF option will get your ass fired.

Hoyer went thru a really bad stretch and as rare and as hard as it is to find a QB that can even play good football is a hard thing to do. Hoyer got us 7 wins this year and should in all reality have gotten us even more. But thinking that he will easily be replaced is stupid.

Here is what I think and I bet my last dollar you'll see franchises come after Hoyer hard. Hoyer has worked his tail off and established himself as a team leader, along with some solid play. But this is Hoyers 1st season as a full time starter I don't think a QB or anyone else understands the mental and physical toll a full season of starting at the NFL level exacts on you as a player until you have experienced it. Hoyer will bounce back, he has the skill set to be at the very least serviceable and that gets a middle of the road contract all day everyday in the NFL..

To hear you all talk you would think it was easy to find a guy that can play as well as Hoyer and its not and we all know it, if it were please explain the past 15 years to me........................

I stopped reading right there you have no idea what Hoyer is about saying that shows me all I need to know about your ability to evaluate a QB, nuff said.

Hint Hint, Hoyer stopped Hoyer not the defense................ But like I said he will bounce back of that I am absolutely positive, and will either benefit from it or someone else will...

Wouldn't the franchise tag mean they'd have to pay Hoyer top 5 QB money? Its not my money and yeah, I'd like him to stay, but that's a lot of cabbage for a guy you benched. Can't see it.

No. Absolutely not.

Hoyer doesn't warrant a contract to do that relative to his position. This process works best for teams with a bunch of cap space, like us, while trying to figure out the ceiling for a player that is perceived to be one of the best at their position and that has long-term starting ability.....a player like Cameron MIGHT fit this category.

Hoyer doesn't fit in this category. Sorry, but he just doesn't. Sadly, for Hoyer, he should have taken the contract given to him before the season started. He didn't and he will suffer for it, financially. I'm all for him sticking around w/ back up money but I don't think it will happen.

Well with your ability to read QB's why are you not working for some NFL front office some where. The fact you think Hoyer is going to bounce back and the fact that you don't believe defenses have taken away what Hoyer can do tells me all I need to know about your ability to understand basic football. Hint Hint: Hoyer couldn't get a first down against a terrible Indy defense and lost his job.

I believe you missed my point entirely. I didn't want JFF in the draft. All of my fears about him is exactly what I saw last week. But that had nothing to do with my post.

The fact is we did draft him. The fact is he is getting his shot. And the fact is, if he doesn't pan out it will put this team two years further removed from relevance.

I addressed someone who "wanted hi to fail" and said exactly that. So no matter how a fan feels about JFF and no matter what we have seen of him on the field, I want him to succeed.

It's really as simple as that.

Like I said, we are a QB away from competing. Heck, we competed with Brian Hoyer. You have a right to your opinion, and if you think not going forward with Johnny Football is setting us back a couple years; go on a think that way and put your eggs in his basket. I sure wouldn't and that's my opinion. I'd go all in with Hoyer than with Manziel next year. I honestly think we can get a veteran QB behind center in Hoyer or Sam Bradford and compete for a playoff push. If Manziel lasts 4-5 years as a backup QB (which I think he won't), he might be decent. But, to think that he will be the guy to usher our Browns into a new era is foolish IMO. I don't see any leadership characteristics or work ethic that makes me think otherwise. Before people go on and say that he's young and will make mistakes and will party up and act a fool, that's what kids do, I am a Marine that has been serving for 12+ years and I see what a motivated 18-22 year old with a purpose can do. Guys his age have the ability to mature and be leaders. Money Football doesn't have "it". I'm sure he will wow use from time to time with his physical talent, but these last few games will be telling. There is no reason for him to be lost in the playbook at this point. Hoyer was able to command it within a month or so after training camp. Manziel has had all preseason and 13 weeks. To display what he did last week was a disgrace to himself and the coaching staff.

My contingency plan is to resign Hoyer and move Mr. Football to a slot WR where he can run around and be athletic all day. I believe that is the only position he has a chance to thrive in the NFL.

Man, I like the Bradford idea a ton.

And I am not a fan of Bradford at all.

But he would be an upgrade over Hoyer, and if he stays healthy (big if), we are a playoff team, IMO.

I'm tired of watching the Bengals, Ravens, and Steelers make the playoffs. I'm tired of rooting for losers.

Actually, I almost don't even care anymore. I am getting really close to closing up shop on the Cleveland Browns. I have a feeling Pettine will be fired next year if we don't make the playoffs. If I last that long, I will never root for the Browns again if that happens.

There it is in a nutshell. That to me means someone will come for him.. maybe more than one team. He's going to go to the team that promises him the starters job or a shot at it. That means that unless there is a shift in thinking in Cleveland, we won't be in contention.

It's not your opinion of his skill set that I have a problem with. It's the fact you posted that you want him to fail. You should never want a Browns player to fail and root for him to fail. While that's just my opinion, I root for every player in a Browns uniform to succeed. No matter what I think of them.

I'm having a hard time believing that Pettine would accept anything less than a total commitment by those scheduled to play on Sunday.

I see no problem Browns going with both Hoyer and Manziel next season. Declare Hoyer the starter make Johnny go take it from him.

With the right surrounding, Hoyer played well to win games. Hoyer, as can Johnny, can improve next season. Remember Hoyer is a first year starter.

Its been said many times you are what your records states. Right now Browns are .500. Many here thought Browns would finish 8-8.

Yeah, I'm crossing my fingers with the Bradford idea if we cannot retain Hoyer. We are a QB away. There is enough talent on this team to do good things and truly compete; not like the Browns since the return. While 2007 may have been fool's gold, something just feels different this time around.

Firing Pettine would be a huge mistake. We need to retain this staff for at least 5 years to really see what they can field on Sundays. While I think that Farmer passing on Watkins at 4 and drafting JM at 22 was a huge mistake; he made some awesome moves in bringing in Williams, Gabriel, Crowell, Bitonio, and West. To me, that is success in a rookie class. Depending on what we do with Buffalo's pick and how Gilbert develops in the off season will determine if his 1st round is a complete failure.

The organization is in a weird situation.

It's unfortuante Hoyer's play fell off as bad as it did. We would be looking at the playoffs right now. But when you are 90% of the reason the team is losing, the coaches feel they have to do something. I doubt the coaches expected the team to quit like they did last week. I think, despite the warnings, it was a surprise to them. Now they would look like fools going back to Hoyer. They are in a tough spot.

And we the fans are in our usual spot watching our most hated teams and fanbases enjoy success and enjoyment.

Anyone tired of this chit yet?

So there was never a player on the roster that you despised and couldn't stand seeing suit up in Brown and Orange?

Well, this is a new feeling for me because I have never felt that until now. At the time, I hated the Weeden pick as well; but, I had hope that Weeden would develop because he has the skill set of an NFL QB. With that said, I never hoped he would fail. I was happy when he left knowing that Hoyer would have a shot and was excited about that spark he provided in 2013. With Manziel, I hated the pick, don't think he has any qualities of an NFL QB, and truly detest his off-field behavior and personality. If he acted like the spoiled man-child that he is, but had the make-up and work ethic of an NFL QB, I could tolerate him and happily root for his success on Sundays (think Josh Gordon as a receiver); but I have a hard time hoping for this guys success. I'd rather shuffle him to another position where he is most likely to help the team and move on.

Not really.

Once you put on that uniform, you're with us, even if only as a mercenary.

There have been plenty of guys that I wished weren't on my team because I thought they would play poorly.

But that's much harder than having a guy you don't like who can perform.

Once they perform, all is forgiven.

If they can't perform, I take no joy in watching my team suffer because of it.

Well, we have 2 more games to see what Manziel can do. And we can't judge him in a final sense on just a total of 3 games, plus around a 1/4 of another game.......but we can get a feel.

He's got to improve, and no, I won't take "oh, we had no running game", or "receivers are dropping the ball", or "o line conspired against him" excuses.

Stand in the pocket - make reads, throw to the open guy, whether that's the first read, second, or third.

While I'm hoping the team is playing to win - the backside of that is the Browns organization is hoping to see improvement from John. Correct reads, accurate passes - whether caught or not - that's what we're looking for at this point.

I have no idea how a Front Office works, so maybe you folks can help me out. What are the expectations (REAL Expectations) for a front office and when is a QB contingency plan executed?

I was thinking of Denver/Manning, Dallas/Romo, Chargers/Rivers etc., and if they don't win a Superbowl, how will they be viewed within their team's success criteria? If we go 9-7 or 10-6 for 2-3 years, is that good enough? Is 8-8 OK for a few years? If Manning does not win a SB in Denver, was his acquisition a failure - from a business point of view? Do Owners and GM's really consider a Superbowl as the only measure of success?

I guess the question I have is what measure does a FO use to determine success?

I don't think it matters, just like Bernie said.

Bernie is an idiot.

He offered no solutions. Just bitched and moaned. It was largely incoherent gibberish.

I am amazed at the number of people who think they actually made sense of what he said.

But Hoyer had displayed an ability to play well in fact very well and he NEVER had games as bad as JF. You don't have to even be able to see to know JF isn't deserving of starting for the Browns or any other team. he is a lazy party animal and nothing else..... But we are suppose to ditch Hoyer in favor of JF according to you when Hoyer as a 1st year starter is ding ding ding 10-6 this team couldn't win a game in a season with JF as the starter yet you want me to buy into your argument that Hoyer sucked for 4 games and therefore we should ditch Hoyer in favor of JF.................

And after the display we ahev seen from him it becomes more and more obvious how lost you are on this topic.

Game set match...........................