DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Dansby: Gilbert "Has To Look in the Mirror"

Here's what coach Mike Pettine is saying about the Browns today

On if RB Terrance West and DB Justin Gilbert have a clean slate going into this week: “It is, but it’s also a situation where they need to respond. This is something that we’re...it’s very serious to us on how we approach our work and how we handle our business week to week. It is a tough love circumstance for both of those guys. We expect them to uphold their end of the bargain. Nothing is given whether it’s playing-time or being active or inactive, and both of those guys are very well aware of their situations. We’re hopeful that they’ll both have a good week and they can be productive for us on Sunday.”

http://www.ohio.com/blogs/cleveland-brow...-today-1.552328

He's saying ..."You guys are playing for your jobs."

Justin has been virtually passed up by almost all our cornerbacks now. Cannot possibly be good news for him and now Karlos calling him out...

Hopefully that's a big kick in his ass to get himself into a working mode and perfect his craft. We drafted him too high to be relying on undrafted rookies and etc more so than a high round pick.

Sounds like it, doesn't it?

Frankly, I trust later round picks and UDFA more than I trust prima donnas in the 1st round and even the 2nd round.

Those guys are generally under the belief that they are replaceable easily. These prima donnas in the first two rounds, but especially the 1st round, believe that they have their jobs secured because of their draft position. Period.

We've seen examples written here and heard and read in the print media too why they are justified in this belief. Everyone seems to be saying that Manziel will have the starting QB job next season because he was drafted in the 1st round. The belief in that kind of thinking is what keeps the Browns searching for answers at all positions.

Nobody on the team should feel that their jobs are safe. Nobody. Not a single player should think they've are safe from being replaced.

This draft is looking pretty crappy overall.

Gilbert: Terrible pick thus far. Seems to have a tude. Doesn't tackle well. Poor technique.

Manziel: Looks totally lost out there.

Bitonio: Good solid pick. Played well for a rookie.

West: Strong, but has no explosion and apparently has some attitude issues.

DeSir: Terrible feet. Weak tackler. Looks lost.

Crowell: While not drafted, he was still an excellent acquisition.

Williams: Excellent signing. That kid competes on every down. He plays w/excellent balance and technique and is always on his guy.

Who am I missing?

Kirksey.

I've been somewhat pleased with his play thus far for a third round LB.

Yeah. I didn't like the pick when it happened, but he has played fairly well.

Browns' Whitner on Gilbert: 'Grow up'

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/120734...=espnapi_public

what is going on in this locker room?

That's exactly what he's saying to them. He has tried everything with them all year long....and they aren't getting the message. I gaurantee you the players,are telling these dudes "Bro man,you better step it up cat...or they're gonna cut you."

The 2 guys we brought in for leadership are demonstrating leadership. They are helping hold a talented but under preparing and under performing player responsible for his career, and are letting him know what he had better get going on if he wants to be a pro, and play to his potential.

When is the last time we had this kind of leadership on this team? I would say that it has been decades. Maybe they won't reach Gilbert, but they have to try. I am glad to see them taking the reins on defense, and showing the younger players what it takes to be a great player ... from practice and preparation, as much as game days themselves.

tough love, and a hint to the off season program.

I'm wrong? Well thank goodness for telling me.

You know what your problem is? You think that the draft round actually means something.

People THINK that is the top 32 players. You know what makes them the top 32 players?
What people THINK. It doesn't make it so. Because they are drafted in the first round they are sure things? That's ridiculous.

And you do realize that around 55% of first round players never meet expectations right? Least thats what an article stated a few years back when i read it. Thats an awful lot of GM's getting the axe each year by your standards. Especially since they only get most of a year before someone like you rushes to judgement.

They researched all these players from the first round down to the unrestricted rookie free agent that they brought in to evaluate. It doesn't matter what round they came from.

I could give a damn if every first round pick sucks, if we bring in 2-3 rookie free agents that turn into good players.

I'm pretty sure you are wrong, but whatever. Think what you want.

jc...

Gilbert is now a multi millionaire.

Maybe that's all he really cared about. He's set for life. Maybe he doesn't really like football. Maybe he doesn't enjoy competing.

His not playing shouldn't really be a shock to anyone. I was surprised it didn't get more traction, but he basically said mid season that he enjoyed sleeping while Williams was studying. I remember being a bit taken aback by that statement. A few others were as well but it hardly got any traction.

About the draft-

Also I wish we'd stop trying to be the damn Patriots every year with our trades. WE SUCK. A bottom 5 team picks in the bottom 5 for a reason. It means you need a difference maker. We get cute and try to win the draft instead of actually making our team better. We go by theories instead of results. It's the same deal with cap space. We want to save money because theoretically it might help us. So instead of acquiring talent we want to protect a future that may or may not be worth it. We can try the "Patriot Way" when we get a Brady & Belicheck.

I'm really starting to wonder,about how much time went into evaluating these guys in the 1st rd. It seems like the focus was on physical attributes,and not enough on who they were character wise. Something's not adding up in all this. Maybe this is what Kozar was alluding to about the structure of the organization,and why they can't push forward to more success? I don't know...maybe it's just me,but if I'm going to spend a #8 overall pick,I want to know what it is I'm buying.

I will tell you something...

I didn't see us taking a corner with #8 overall pick...however my friend is a huge Lions fan prior to the draft he asked me to look deeper into Gilbert...I hated that he gambled far too often...was wildy inconsistent in play and had sloppy technique and was a horrid collegiate tackler...if you can't tackle in college you wont be able to tackle in the NFL... I think his stock was heavily elevated because of his interception return skills and special teams returns...I saw a corner with ideal size superb return skills...good hands and would break up plays by shadowing a recievers eyes...however I saw all the bad I mentioned... I felt he was a 2-3rd round guy...with round 1 return skills...I also predicted years ago that Perrish Cox also from OSU would be a far better NFL player...(played fierce, intense, really good tackler, nice size and speed, stayed in stride to the wide out) but had some baggage and I believe something like 7 children in college or something..

Gilbert reminded me of Justin Miller...who I think was drafted in round 1 like in 05...was a horrible corner but did make a probowl as a returner..

This is actually the 1st I heard of this.

1 - What a ridiculous statement to make
2 - Kudos to Williams

Sure it is too early to give up on Gilbert and Manziel. And they were drafted where the draftniks said they should be. But neither gave us much of anything this season, and if you look at who we could've taken instead …
Both players appear (from my limited vantage point) to have attitude/work ethic problems. That's the kind of thing the front office has to spot in pre-draft interviews. If Williams and Desir are better than Gilbert now, that was a wasted pick. Sure, he might improve, but they will, too. We could've had Odell Beckham in that spot!
Now Bitonio looks like a home run, and Kirksey looks like a solid pick. And they seem to have a great eye for UDFAs. But if UDFAs (Shaw, Crowell, K. Williams) are as good or better than the high picks, we're doing something seriously wrong.
If you can't nail skill position picks or CBs in the first round, then I say go for safer bets like offensive linemen, DLs or linebackers. No one is a sure thing, but that seems easier to not screw up.

I never read that statement. If true, it's pretty damning.

Some people around here have what appears to be a personal vendetta against Manziel and trash him constantly, but Gilbert has been a bigger disappointment than JM has been. He is also getting more flak from his teammates than Manziel has.

At first glance it may not wow you, but it is way too early to call it crappy.

Gilbert - Needs to grow up, step up and play to his abilities. Has all the physical tools to play opposite Hayden. He's surrounded by underdog talents Skrine and K'Waun who have shown what hard work and dedication can accomplish, and has Hayden and Whitner as very capable veteran mentors. Also, it takes a CB 2-3 years to hit their stride so no need to write him off yet.

First Round pick from Buffalo - That is a FIRST ROUND PICK from Buffalo.

Manziel - I don't like what I've seen, but it is too early to call him a bust. He's saying the right things, we need to see drastic improvement here. My guess is, he won't pan out, but again, too early to tell.

Bitonio - Day one starter, played well 98% of the time. Excellent pick at a need spot.

Kirksey - Excellent pick, shows potential to be a starter, contributed from day one.

West - Showed improvement over the course of the year, becoming more decisive hitting the holes. Apparently took a step backward with his attitude issues this past week. Needs to see drastic improvement in that department if he wants to stay on the field. Works well in tandem with Crowell.

Desir - Showed flashes of excellence late in the season, had a particularly good game against the Colts. Overall decent year for a 4th rounder from a small school. Again, I'll withhold judgement here for another year or two.

Crowell - Excellent UDFA pick-up who worked his way into a starting roll and contributed from day one.

Williams - Another excellent UDFA pick-up who worked his way into a starting roll and contributed from the moment he was called on. Fantastic exception to the rule and could be a holy terror in a year or two.

So far from crappy IMO, but admittedly the failure of Gilbert to play to his potential and the failure of Manziel to play to his hype have skewed the overall perception. It's impossible to grade yet partly because it's too early and particularly because we haven't seen what that Buffalo pick will yield.

j/c

I don't know what it is about corner backs. Remember when the media/NFL analyst stated Browns needed to draft Claiborne and Milliner?

I rarely think drafting a CB early in the draft is good thing, but having two good corners does make a world of difference.

I think it is so difficult judging talent. In order to tell if any good, you have to look at the competition faced and supporting talent. Good luck finding out character value too.

In this last draft, I would have done the same as Farmer trading a receiver pick for a corner. Teams having two corners really do make a big difference. It is easy looking back now and say would-a-could-a-should-of. Farmer wasn't sugar coating. His objective is building a sound defense.

I get the two receivers argument helping the offense. Which is better clearly is a non-winnable debate. Anyone can make sound pros and cons defending either side of the ball.

Thank goodness Farmer didn't go all in on Gilbert. It would be very troublesome thinking Pettine had to rely on Gilbert. Let's hope Gilbert gets it and comes back next season ready.

just a general question to all of you?

How many players on average does an nfl team draft each year that turn into good players? I can't believe its all that many.

I say this because imo why does it matter who pans out?

I mean if Manziel and Gilbert were total busts, and Shaw and Desir turn into good players then whats the problem?

I guess we could have had 2 good qb's and 2 good corners, but i can't believe that any team hits that much.

We had a ton of players brought in this year that contributed some solid football. If this front office does that again next year we will be well on our way to a good solid deep team.

Do i want the first round freak? Yeah, but adding solid players helps alot too.

Add to the fact that its year one, then I don't know how we really judge them yet.

I hear what you are saying, but let's look at the situation w/a broader lens.

The failure of high draft picks has been a staple of this franchise since its rebirth.

Now look at the team's overall record and performance since its rebirth.

You think that there might be a correlation between the two?

I'm sure their is a correlation, but imo there are many other factors that go into it.

For example,

How many players have we drafted for 1 system, then fired the coach and front office, and tried to play that guy in a different system? I don't know all the technical stuff that i hear all you guys talk about, but certain guys are better in a certain system.

So we have the overall, i'm going to say 55% chance of a first rounder panning out, added to the fact they might be playing in the wrong system. What do you get from that? I think even a worse chance of success.

Then add in coaching and front office changes and its a recipe for disaster. And that is pretty much what we are seeing.

I want stability. These people will all get better with experience. Is Ozzy a better GM now compared to his first year? Fifteen years compared to less than 1 for Farmer.

How long did pitt stick with Cowher before they won a superbowl? I can't even remember. Did we stick with Marty? He was getting us to the playoffs. Nope next guy up. Belichick? Not good enough. And thats all before the debacle that we are now. Hell i bet shurmur could have won a superbowl with pitt.

we are a victim of our own creation. Develop our picks, learn from mistakes, and get some damn continuity.

Oh i don't disagree with you at all. I didn't mean that first rounders aren't better. I understand that percentages go way down as the draft goes by.

I will first say that with the exception of Gilbert and Manziel, this front office isn't responsible for the past. We need to get out of the mold of 'all our picks sucked'

I would say that Thomas, Mack, Haden, and Taylor were good picks, same with Cameron, and Skrine. 2012 was a train wreck, but we got one back by trading trent. Winn and Hughes are solid depth.

And imo the jury is out on Mingo, Gilbert, and Manziel.

I was wondering more about if there was a way to find out how many guys a team picks contribute. Like over that same span i just listed, how many solid players did belichick draft? Or Ozzy? IIrc most teams don't start rookies like we do either.

We hit on some guys that were VERY unlikely to pan out. They are playing well though, and in year one. Look how many of our picks are playing well. Bit, Kirksey, Desir, crow, williams, and gabriel.

When was the last time we had 6 players picked in a year that were playing well? With two more that still might?

Now obviously we can't get a 'Joe Thomas' from the rookie fa's. and yes when you are allowed to pick from the biggest pool, you should have the best chance of success.

If you really step back and think about it, its pretty much a coin toss for a good player in the first, and it gets worse from there. And by worse from there i mean less ready to possibly succeed in the NFL.

We got some solid contributions this year, and the jury is out on others. I just don't understand the 'he looked like crap' so therefore he's a bust' stuff. I sure would have like Gilbert and Manziel to play better, but I don't really think they are a closed book either.

I honestly think that this front office, this coaching staff, and these players did a lot of good things. In the end inexperience and injuries were too much to overcome, but we fielded a better team then we have seen in a long time around here. And its year 1.

I'm disappointed in what happened to us, but if they leave this alone, i think we finally see great things.

Tab, I hear what you are saying and makes for a interesting discussion.

Is it more the Browns never had a plan, or no one in charge long enough to execute a plan? Missing on a first and/or second pick a lack of preparation or a terrible mix of incompatible pieces?

From Palmer...Davis...Crennel...Mangini...Shurmur...Chudzinski...now Pettine...Browns have switched form one philosophy to another.

Bernie, in his rant, made a valid point. When are the Browns going to commit to winning? Instead of worrying about the perfect QB, DB, and/or OL. More attention should be building a winning concept/culture concern less with individuals. Winning systems produce winning individuals.

I won't state Farmer did or did not do a great job this last draft. What Farmer did different than GMs in the past was draft players from a list he felt fit a mold. Getting enough like players who fit the better the unit.

Don't really see how you can say this. A quick google search says their are approximately 3500 eligible players every year that could be drafted. The NFL drafted 256 of them. We then signed 11 rookie free agents. Even if each team did the same, then its not a large percentage of drafted players.

So yeah i would say some talent evaluation goes into it.

This cannot be overstated; it is essential to long term success. Nice way to phrase that thought, bone'...

We can even look at it from a different perspective.

Lets say we expect a first round pick to be a contributor in year one, and maybe give 2nd rounders the same label.

So this is potentially 2 starters from a draft. These are top 64 and are your best bets.

This would mean that chances are you get 2 players a year, and then maybe have a chance at developing someone from the latter rounds or rfa.

Thats only 2 probable good players. We did way better then that, but it just wasn't the guys we expected to be the contributors. I say thats a great job for year one. Next year we need some solid first rounders with those 2 picks. Here's hoping.

Maybe we botched our first round selections...time will tell. But we sure got a heck of a consolation prize in the later rounds.

anyway...Merry Christmas to all of you.

I will disagree on the FA's there is an impression that anyone that is breathing can get invited to be a FA.

Because there are only 7 rounds and 90 roster spots, marginal players have to be identified, and courted to sign with a team. A smart player would have the belief that he can catch on and contribute, and it would not be a wise decision to go to a team that is strong in your position, whatever that may be.

Yes we call them camp fodder, because the reality of the situation is that most won't make it. But spotting a player, and getting him into camp is the first step to making the roster.

The Browns started off with 10 or 11 picks last year and forwhatever reason wound up with 8 picks. Williams, Nelson, Gabriel had little fanfare about them. Crowell had a spotty past. Imagine trying to convince Shaw to come to camp with the drafting of Manziel, that had to have been a tough sell. But the Browns were successful.

But they all made it and some of them contributed significantly to the team.

You have to be willing to look at a player and figure out if he can develop into something given time and a program. Most of these players have been students as well, and never dedicated their life to being a professional athlete. Some come from a torturous path that may have limited their ability to get recognized.

You have to keep track of players on other teams rosters and practice squads that interest you and be prepared to pick them up if they become available. (See Solomon)

The only player that I felt made the team, but did not get the roster spot was Johnson, who caught on with the Vikings and has done well.