DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Secularists Erect ‘Holiday’ Exhibits in Florida, Michigan, Angering Believers

I laughed out loud a touch reading this. Giant waste of time on everyone's part, but the idea of some lady knocking it down and getting arrested got to me. The kicker was that "the angel no longer could be suspended over the flames so it now was sitting in them". Loved Festivus being included as well.

What a country.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/dueling-displays-in-capitals-1419381751

In celebration of the holidays a new display went up this week in the Florida Capitol building: a diorama depicting an angel falling into the flames of hell, courtesy of an organization called the Satanic Temple.

The Cambridge, Mass.-based secularist group had sought to place a similar installation in Florida last year, but state officials rejected it as “grossly offensive.” This year, after the advocacy group Americans United for Separation of Church and State threatened to sue on Satanic Temple’s behalf, the diorama was approved.

The display is one of several irreverent decorations aimed at countering a Nativity scene in the Capitol. Others include a pile of noodles from the Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster and a stack of beer cans by blogger Chaz Stevens honoring the parody holiday Festivus from the TV show “Seinfeld.”

Disputes over holiday displays in public spaces are common and have erupted this year in cities including Lansing, Mich.; Rusk, Texas; and Portsmouth, Va. Researchers say atheists and other groups that advocate separation of church and state are becoming more assertive, and provocative, in challenging religious displays.

The move is driven in part by the growing ranks of people who claim no religion and the outspokenness of prominent atheists such as author Richard Dawkins, said Mark Silk, a professor of religion in public life at Trinity College. “The inclination of some of these groups is to put their nonbeliefs in the public square,” he said.

Surveys by Trinity and the Public Religion Research Institute, a nonprofit, nonpartisan group, show that the proportion of Americans who say they have no religious affiliation rose to 21% in 2013 from 8% in 1990.

Under Supreme Court rulings, if a government opens up a public space for private groups to mount holiday displays, it “can’t choose which messages it likes and which ones it doesn’t,” said Gregory Lipper, senior litigation counsel at Americans United for Separation of Church and State. “We would prefer that there not be holiday displays. But if there are, then everyone needs to be welcomed,” he said.

For the Satanic Temple—the group says it has about 10,000 members across the country and describes its mission as encouraging “benevolence and empathy,” not worshiping Satan—“the primary message really is, ‘happy holidays,’ ” said spokesman Douglas Mesner, referring to the words inscribed on the display. He added, “I hope our display raises awareness of plurality in general.”

Critics like Pam Olsen, founder of the Florida Prayer Network, which put up one of the Nativity scenes in the Capitol, consider the tongue-in-cheek displays part of a broader assault on Christianity and religious freedom. “I refuse to allow a small group of people to say that our country and our government has to be completely cleansed of anything to do with faith,” she said.

On Tuesday, a woman knocked over and damaged the Satanic Temple’s diorama in the Florida Capitol and later was arrested, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. A member of the Satanic Temple later reassembled it, but the angel no longer could be suspended over the flames so it now was sitting in them, Mr. Mesner said.

Though Mr. Mesner said Satanic Temple wasn’t aiming to mount a national campaign, it triggered a spat at the Michigan Capitol in Lansing. After hearing about plans to install a Nativity scene, the group gained approval for a decoration that includes a black cross and a snake.

The person who applied to put up the Nativity scene was out of state and unable to comply with rules requiring the display to be taken down each night. The prospect that only the Satanic Temple adornment would be exhibited—its exhibitor agreed to remove it each night—caused an uproar. As a result, Republican state Sen. Rick Jones volunteered to take away the Nativity scene each night, as well. “There’s no way I’m going to let a Satanic group take over Christmas at my Capitol,” he said.

Another group, American Atheists, posted billboards this month in five cities, including Nashville, Memphis and St. Louis, featuring a young girl with a Santa hat writing a letter that reads, “Dear Santa, All I want for Christmas is to skip church! I’m too old for fairy tales.”

A group of Christians in Memphis countered with a billboard stating: “Dear Santa, All I want is to keep Christmas sacred and celebrate without being bullied.”

Groups upon groups of people who need more fulfilling ways to pass their time on this planet.

'Graven images' erected by all sides, fashioned by impassioned people, each with their own brand of tunnel vision... leading to arrests, posturing, accusations of religious assault and public verbal battles about conflicting ideology.

Yup.

'Tis the season, alright.




Peace on Earth,
Clem

As an Atheist, I've always celebrated Christmas as a time to be with family and enjoy good will. I don't see the need to belittle anyone due to their faith rather they try to push it on me or not; it's what they believe. Live and let live.

I don't care what you believe in, Merry Christmas! Happy Holidays! To one and all.

That's why I've always found this atheist movement so strange. It's almost if they are trying to establish a religion of not believing. I just don't see why they would care.

It does seem that those who don't believe in these cases sighted go out of there way to try to ruin something that is so meaningful to others. I guess I just don't get their motivation unless it's simply to be mean and try to demean the beliefs of others.

That sure seems to be the case.

I look at those who claim to worship Satan, and I see people similar to Atheists. I see people who desperately want to be different, and to make other people get all upset over what they do. They want to be the "cool kids". I find it senseless to give them what they want.

I also believe that Atheists are, in fact, a religion. They are, in a way, self worshipers. They believe that they are the ultimate authority in their own lives, and thus present themselves in the role of God. Many acknowledge that things God "would do" would be good, as long as it wasn't God doing them. They are a religion of "no God", and thus should receive the same Constitutional protections, but no more, than every other religion receives.

I'd say that any atheist should take a good, long look around them. With the way the greed of mankind is destroying the earth and the world we live in, even if they don't believe in God, they better hope there is a God, or mankind is doomed to extinction at some point in the future.

This made me laugh out loud.

Well you must admit, if you don't believe in a Supreme being, then you must believe that humans are the Supreme beings.

Absolutely not.

That's like saying 'well, if cereal isn't your favorite breakfast food, then it must be waffles.'

Your juxtaposing two things as if it must be one or the other.

Someone could believe that love is power higher than mankind itself. They could believe nature is its own entity. They could believe there's an unconscious human collective of sorts that is greater than any individual will or determination. They could believe we're a speck of dust in the universe. Any number of things.

It's not 'believe in one of these specific invisible wizard or you think you're #1'. To not "believe in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures" does not necessarily mean "I'm God".

As for these kids...what they're doing is a waste of time better spent on other things, but it's tongue-in-cheek. They're pointing out how utterly stupid all of this is, but don't quite get they're jumping into the fray rather than enlightening anyone.

Mot necessarily. Maybe he believes in .......

Ancient Alien Astronauts ......

(Tulsa will be so upset that I beat him to this one)

Nope, they're just the lucky ones in evolution, so far.

Not necessarily. I'm probably the best definition of an agnostic. I'm sure there is something to all the stories, but it does not mean there is an omnipotent being. When I consider the high probability that there is life throughout the universe, chances are low that we are the supreme beings of that universe.

Not at all sir. Go right ahead and use it, I had already used mine today anyway!

All lifeforms are doomed to extinction. 95% of all life that have existed on this planet have gone extinct, and not due to the human race. If nature gets too far out of balance, it will correct itself and start anew. This has happened throughout the existence of this planet.

But... but, the planet has only existed some 6000 years. How could we possibly have gone through multiple extinctions in such a short time span?

Oddly enough, god, by definition, is an extraterrestrial.

I'll never understand it for the life of me.

I mean, I get the joke, but wouldn't you have just a touch of sympathy? How is this Tsoukalos guy expressing his out there beliefs hilarious, but when you do it, it's a serious matter of faith?

How is this guy saying everything was aliens any less absurd or insane then 'now, see, God doesn't hold it against you when you're killing for your government'?

I get the funny hair and the suit and his expressions adding to the abusrdist humor, but otherwise it's not much different from when you go on insane tangents trying to make everything relative to God.

Seeing as I don't subscribe to the young earth theory, I would like to quote John Cleese's character 'Tim the Enchanter' from Monty Python and the Holy Grail.

"Look at the bones, man!!"

Also, when you check out certain texts from the Apocrypha and the Sumerian list of kings, you will see that people supposedly lived a lot longer than they do now. Before the supposed great flood, the Sumerian kings would rule for 10s of thousands of years. After the flood, decades. Noah, Lamech, Methuselah, and Enoch all lived 1000s of years. What's a day to god?

The funny thing is that, no matter what has ever happened, no matter what advance humanity has made, or what they have created, ancient aliens always had to have been involved when he is asked.

And yet if I replaced 'ancient aliens' with 'God'...

Then this would be considered a cross and not an ancient aircraft.

You know one thing I noticed in your explanation? You used the term "higher power". I used the term "Supreme being". There is a huge difference in those two you know.....

Not really.

One can be an entity or collective. One can be a singular wizard.

But if either is deemed to have more of an influence over events than a human, then a human would not see themselves as a God or the God.

Christians believe that God gave us free will, to do with as we please. If He had not, then you (particularly) would believe in God, because He would demand it. God created the universe, and the people in it. He influences situations from time to time, but largely allows us to do as we please. (Though I do believe that He does intervene in the lives of those who call on Him)

I think that God wants to love us, and for us to love Him. The rest is rather unimportant to Him, in the larger scope of things. God does not need the credit for splitting the atom, or inventing the toaster. He exists outside of time as we understand it, so he knows what has/is/and will happen ..... but He largely allows events to unfold as we, on this earth, decide. I do believe that God gives us signs, and puts people in our lives, to help us come to Him, but he does not force anyone to do so. I am certain that He knows the decisions each person will make, and it saddens Him when His children decide against loving Him, and unfortunately, that means that those children will not receive the inheritance He has prepared for us all.

Overall, my belief is that God gave us all of the world to do with as we please. He does not decide what we can and cannot discover.

Then let me pose a more direct question. What single life form do your propose as being more powerful than a human being? Smarter or having more ability than a human being?

While you may wish to dance around directly responding to this question, I believe most everyone, including yourself sees the dance that is going on here.

I believe there's a bunch of intelligent life forms in the universe, probably smarter than us.

I just told you it wouldn't have to be a singular entity. I'm not dancing, you're just trying to push the goal posts.

One could say Nature.

But me personally?

An infinite number of things. I have no idea. How the hell would I know? I barely understand humanity, let alone being able to determine whether it's a supreme life form, or what a life form even is. It's a huge universe, what do I know?

Well either you feel there is a superior life form to human beings or you don't. I didn't think it was all that difficult of a concept.

It could be any number of things ..... maybe numerous things ...... yet you are certain that it's not God, and certainly not the Jewish/Christian God.

Interesting.

Why is it interesting?

When you get into the text they are based on, it's clear pretty early that Judeo and Christian faiths are based on flawed texts that amount to parables written by men before the time of modernity.

It's completely contradictory and filled with fantastical fairy tales, and there's stuff in there about snakes telling people to do bad things.

It's very clear that none of this actually happened. They're parables, written in a time where people weren't enlightened enough to know better.

And I never said there's no 'God'...who knows, there may be some force of creation. It may not even be aware of what it's done. But all of the fairy tales of major religions that believe an invisible wizard is watching over them and judging them, making them feel special, omnipotent?

It's pretty easy to deduce that's man-made nonsense.

If you get down to, 'well...maybe magic?' then it's pretty easy to cross that one off the list.

Knowing human passions like we all do, tell me what human would come up with these 'requirements' and then live by them themselves?

Do not have sex until marriage.
Do not have sex with anyone other than the one you are married to.
Do not have sex with the same sex.
Husbands love your wives like Christ loved the church and gave himself for it (this happens to believers and non believers alike! Sorry, couldn't resist!)
Wives submit to your husbands.
Don't steal.
Don't lie.

Sorry, I don't think that mankind would've come up with any of these let alone the top 3, I really don't see why anyone would've cared enough about those to impose that kind of thing on anyone other than a Creator who designed things to be a certain way and expected them to be carried out that way.

I don't buy the argument that the 'more intelligent' of our ancestors created these stories to keep order in society.

I also don't buy that 'you don't need these teachings to be this way' argument. I say you've grown up in a society that was based on these teachings to begin with.

From my perspective, were the God of the Bible not the true God, morality never would've risen above what the ancient Greeks had, temple worship to their 'gods' with temple prostitutes whether they were married or not, was an accepted practice. Men had wives and concubines.

You ask why it is that we (having the passions we do) live by these requirements so willingly? Well, there is a passage in the Old Testament that teaches that God will write his laws on our hearts, we believe that this happens when we accept Christ and the Holy Spirit comes to live in our hearts and enables us to live holy in an unholy world, and by grace we learn that it is the more noble way to live.

Just to add. (a lot, evidently)

Not to mention that no religion before the Jewish religion had a concept of "One God", or that the supreme beings of other creation myths fought and battled which resulted in the Earth, whereas God merely spoke, and the universe was created. The rapidity of which the universe itself came into existence would tend to agree with that part of things. God spoke, and the universe was. Everything scrap of energy that was, or ever will be created in this universe was created in that single moment. The universe expanded from nothing to full expansion in less than a second. Incredible.

We move onto Jesus, and the story of His life, and we have 4 1st person accounts of the life of Jesus. Jesus' crucification is also mentioned in a couple of Roman historical accounts, including one by Josephus. Think about that. A carpenter's son, who became an "unofficial" Rabbi, is noted in no less than 6 historical texts. (including the 4 1st person Gospels, which test to the 1st century) There was no TV in those days. There were no internet reports. Cameras did not exist. There were no newspapers. How do we know who was alive, and how important they were? It's hard to know sometimes, because there is so little historical evidence of everyday life back then.

Jesus' life and death are recorded in multiple sources, including at least 4 1st person accounts. He was one of probably over 3000 people crucified by the Roman Empire, yet he is one of the only, if not the only one recorded by name. Name one of the men who were crucified with him. Name any other man who crucified by the Romans in that area of the empire. Name any of the Pharisees or Sadducees, the spiritual leaders of the day. Name any other Rabbi of the day. We can name a couple of spiritual leaders, John the Baptist, Jesus, and later Paul the Apostle, (a Pharisee himself, who persecuted and killed Christians before himself converting) The Gospel was not written by the religious leaders of the day. Matthew was a tax collector, an occupation that was even less popular then than the IRS is today. He was a wealthy and educated man, (tax collectors of that day collected taxes for Rome, and also added a fee, of their own measure, for themselves) who gave up his occupation to follow Jesus. He also knew how to write, a rarity in that time. Peter, Andrew, James and John were fishermen. Simon the Zealot was part of a group that wanted to overthrow Rome's rule of Judea by any means necessary, and yet gave up that desire to follow Jesus in a non-violent manner. Mark was a very young follower of Jesus, whose mother followed Jesus as well. He wrote down Peter's memories, as Peter could not write. Luke had been a physician. He became a follower of Jesus after His death. Luke interviewed many witnesses to Jesus to put together his account.

This is an unlikely group to start a new religion, In fact, they did not consider this a new religion, but rather bringing the Jewish religion to fruition. The Pharisees disagree, though, because Jesus was not a warrior king, who would come destroy Rome. Rather He was a peaceful man, who taught love, and peace.

These are the men who created the texts that became the Gospel. They are hardly a group of men one would choose. If a man wanted to create a new religion, he would go to the powerful religious leaders, and act through them. Instead fishermen and other "lowly" men stood up to the religious leaders of the day.

After the crucifixion of Jesus, the religion could have fallen apart. It had every reason to do so. Jesus was dead, in front of all kinds of witnesses. In fact, He died about the most humiliating of deaths. He was crucified, whipped and beaten, stripped naked, mocked, and abused on the cross. This was done on the path to Judea, so that all travelling in would see what it meant to revolt, in any way, against the rule of Rome. (and in this case, also the Pharisees, who controlled Judea for the Romans) There would have been thousands of witnesses to the crucifixion. The troops who carried out the Crucifixions were specially trained to not only inflict the maximum torment on the cross, but also to keep the prisoner alive so they would suffer as much as possible. It would have been about as horrifying death as any that could have taken place in that era. The nail in the foot was driven through the heel bone, where there is a massive junction of nerves.

Yet, despite this, Jesus, God on earth, went through this humiliating horror. Why would He do so? This is not a fate that a man would choose for himself for any casual cause. This was an awful way to die. Why would His followers include this in their eyewitness accounts? Better to say that he was attacked from behind, and taken unaware, or something like that. If His followers wanted an impressive story, there are any number of much better ways to structure it, to make Jesus as heroic as could be. Instead, they reported that Jesus died, a torturous and humiliating death on the cross, for all of us ... to become the perfect sacrifice, so that man could believe, and be forgiven. Animal sacrifice would no longer be necessary. Jesus sacrificed Himself for us. This was not as popular an idea as you might think. The powerful of that day had quite a business built on sacrifices at the Temple. As you might imagine, they wanted this stomped out as completely as possible.

Christianity should have been just another fringe religion that was never heard from again once the leader died. There were many who wanted the Messiah to come, and I would imagine that many tried to claim the title. Who are they? No idea. Why? They died, and faded into the lack of history in that time. Jesus, however, endures. We couldn't even tell for certain if Pontius Pilate existed, because of the lack of records in that time. However, archeology uncovered evidence that he was "prefect of Judea". This one inscription is the only evidence, outside of the Bible, that he ever even existed. This was the ruler of Judea, for the Roman empire. Yet he is barely a footnote outside of the Bible. Jesus, however, is mentioned in more official Roman accounts that the leader of the area was. This carpenter, who became a Rabbi, endures to this day. Despite persecution and outright murder of those who possessed, spread, or professed the Gospel of Jesus Christ, He endures.

There are manuscripts dating back to the era following the time of Christ, when His life was recorded to teach His new followers. It is not a case where there are no chain of events of the physical evidence of the time. There are also other Gospels that existed in many of the new churches that Paul began all around the Roman empire. (and when I say church, it wasn't a physical building, but merely a group of believers, and believers who were often persecuted by the legal authorities)

Despite this, there are Gospels from some of these churches that date back to that same time frame. There are others, like the Gnostic, that were written centuries later. (and we can know this by scientific testing in some of the cases. Thanks science!)

In short, there is no reason why we should even know the name of Jesus today. However, we have numerous 1st person accounts, and also an investigative account by Luke. There are minor differences, such as what people heard Jesus say prior to His death, but the message remains consistent. Some say that King James altered the Biblical texts in their translations. Well, we have many originals. Man, that is unheard of from that period of time. It would be almost like finding a library in the time of cavemen. (especially outside of the elite, or religious leaders)

Further, and most importantly, I know, in my heart, that what the Bible teaches is true. I know that Jesus lived, and died for my sins. I know that God loved us, loved me, enough that he sent Jesus to suffer and die for my sins. That tells what God thinks of me, and all who believe. That shows how much He loves us. I have heard Jesus in my heart, and in my spirit. It is not hate, or anger that I hear, but love ........ the love of a father for His child.

This went longer than I intended, and many probably did not make it to this point, but I felt that today, on Christmas, we should know what Jesus did for us, and the extraordinary evidence we have of His life on earth. Not using the Bible as a resource, I doubt that anyone could name 5 people from the 1st century in Judea. I doubt that anyone can name anyone, other than Jesus, who was crucified on the road to Judea. I doubt that any of those names are recorded in official Roman texts. The purpose of crucifixion was to erase a man. Instead, it fulfilled Jesus' purpose on earth, and His resurrected life, and His message of love, endures to this day.

Merry Christmas everyone. With all of the presents we receive or give on this day, God has already given us the greatest gift anyone could ever receive.

According to religious scholars, he wasn't even born today, or anywhere around December.

Man, the only dancing I see being done is by religious people.

How do you explain the passages in the Bible that clearly depict God determining the mental states and actions of human beings (e.g. Exod. 10)? Does this example of direct negation of personal free will constitute what you refer to as a "situation" in your original post? Your language is unclear to me.

That's because he flat out hates Christian plain and simple maybe, if he found Jesus and became a believer he could really see the hate of of progressive beliefs that are driving him and others on this board, anyway Merry Chistmas to all

This is well known. As the Romans were in the process of coopting the new religion of Christianity, there were discussions on when the birth of their savior took place. Many different people picked different times of the year, including March 21, May 28, January 2, etc. Many of these days coincided with pagan holidays. The eventual date of Dec 25th was picked around 275 AD, as it coincided with natalis solis invicti, the birthday of Mithras, and the winter solstice. As the Christians were attempting to roll the pagans into their religion, it was considered best to match up holidays.

I do not understand why Christians get angry when the World acts as it does.

We know they have been this way since the dawn of Man, we know they worship themselves, the trees or mountains. The World has slaughtered us by the thousands from the beginning to no avail. We know they will live and die in their own filth of sin.

We also know how lucky we are to have faith and believe in our God. We have always been just one twist in life away from being like the World.

Feel sorry for them, pray for them, and thank the Good Lord you have been saved from the World.

We Christians are so lucky, so blessed, so lucky. Raise your heads high and know that you have been bought and paid for at a very high price and every penny has been paid! Rejoice in the knowledge the World has the same opportunity as you if they ever choose to accept the gift.

I think this is a good time for a nice little secular song to brighten everyone spirits on this Christmas day.