DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Secularists Erect ‘Holiday’ Exhibits in Florida, Michigan, Angering Believers

The more I read the Bible, the less certain I am that human souls will burn forever in Hell. I do believe that Satan and the other fallen will burn in hell forever .... but I believe that those who have rejected God and Jesus will simply experience the death of their mortal soul. Those who believe, and have accepted Jesus will receive their immortal soul, and their heavenly body.

That is to the best of my knowledge. I am still going through the Bible though.

Keep on reading YTown, tell us how it ends!

What is more fantastic to believe? That inanimate materials and chemicals suddenly decided to make themselves alive and created all life on earth? Or that a force beyond our understanding named God created us?

If you ask me to believe that random chemicals with no life in them suddenly decided to be alive and then program itself to procreate and make more life then good sir I find you insane. This is why the origin of life makes the theory of evolution into nonsense. I am not saying things can't evolve over time because they do. I am not saying that things don't die out from circumstance and natural selection. I also recognize life can take on many strange and wonderful forms we probably don't know about yet.

Still, inanimate chemicals and objects do not bring themselves to life. If they did we would see it all over the place. It's simple FACT that they don't.

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So many of you think life is not unique to this world and yet the thought that aliens have visited this planet with a higher intelligence than ours makes you laugh? If the universe is full of intelligent life why would it seem weird for them to seek us out as proof they are not alone in the universe the same as we currently do. Nothing in the Bible says that God only created life on Earth. I think it's arrogant to think we are the only planet he created life on.

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It is fact that there have been industrial human civilizations on this planet for over 200,000 years that we know of. It is also fact that they have left artifacts behind that to this day we can't duplicate them. They have built things in ways we could not even hope to duplicate even with today's technology. I don't make any claim in knowing where they came from or how but the simple fact is the evidence is easily obtainable.

I think many of the mythology of our world is leftover remnants from ancient people. I mean you figure that in just 3,000 years alone the world has learned, then lost, and then relearned the industrial revolution several times then it is not so hard to believe that mankind over the course of a few hundred thousand years prior also went through similar processes of gaining and losing technology. Even now they are finding fantastic underwater cities from 8,000 to 10,000 years ago...you know back when they want to convince us we were still dwelling in caves ...

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I can't prove God exists anymore than someone can prove chemicals can bring themselves to life. I do know however that all things in this universe exist as a form of energy and that 90% of all objects in this world are empty space held impossibly together by fields connecting us atom by atom and particle by particle and sub particle by subparticle.

I believe God is that source of energy that holds the fabric of our universe together. I believe he knows everything because he is connected through that energy to everything. I believe without that energy our universe would not exist. I make no claims to understand why the universe works the way it does but for me its impossible to see all the details and not see something directing creation along a certain path.

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To each their own, but for me I will choose to have God and eternity rather than not have him and face oblivion. It's just not a logical decision to not prefer God and heaven over simple oblivion without him. There is not one of the 10 commandments that hurts you by following them. In fact, chances are you will have a happier life if you do follow them barring the oppression from mankind.

Bro you just tried to say that he Quran was a work of man, completely disrespecting that religion, while trying to justify yours.

Not only is that a contradiction, but a complete joke.

You make it easier and easier to disregard Christians and all other religions.

You. Single handily. YTown.

I always find it interesting how the belief of/in God turns into a more simplistic discussion of right/wrong approach to the path that we may follow. Even within a given religion there has been inhumanity against people of similar faith, because of the manner in which they practice their faith.

I have come to accept that there may be more than one path to God. I don't know if the path which I follow is correct or not, but I don't think it is right to tell others that theirs is wrong. No one knows that answer.

I am really glad that our forefathers were smart enough to keep religion out of the government and kept beliefs to that of God. There has been an effort to make that God of Christian faith, but I don't think that was true then or now.

I'm really needing a "like" button on this site, Prp....

[hint]

I pointed out a set of passages in the Koran that demonstrate a basic misunderstanding of the Christian religion. (which was well established at the time the Koran was created) Further, the Koran was never written down in Mohammed's lifetime. He had numerous associates who memorized certain chapters or verses, and they were responsible for keeping it "pure". When Mohammed died, there was an internal war among his followers, and they killed some of these men as a result. Many entire chapters were lost as a result. Once the Koran was to be written down, they basically did the best they could, but large chunks were lost. However, it is still said to be the perfect word of god, identical to one that exists in heaven.

People have a problem with Christianity and predestination, man, the Koran says that a man can basically be a scumbag his entire lifetime, and yet still make it to heaven if Allah decides to bring him in. There is a story about a man who killed 100 men. He wanted to be forgiven, so he went to (IIRC) a holy man of another religion. That man told him that he did not know if "Allah" would forgive him, so the man killed him. He went to another man, and that man told him that there was a man in a far away city who could answer the question for him, so he headed off on the 100 (again, IIRC) mile trip. Roughly half way to the city, the man died. The angels of heaven and hell went down, and got into an argument over who should get his soul, and so Allah told them to measure if the man was closer to the old city (his old life)or the new city. (and new life) Allah then shortened the distance between the man and the new city so he was a meter (or another measure, I cannot recall off the top of my head) so he was closer to the new city, and to salvation and heaven.

That is not my God.

Further, the Koran completely and absolutely disrespects the divinity and sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The Koran says that Jesus was the Messiah, but was just a man. Further, it says that Jesus did not die on the cross, but rather that God took Jesus into heaven prior to going to the cross, and made another person look like Jesus. That man died in Jesus' place.

That calls Christianity a lie, no ifs, ands, or buts.

The Koran also re-writes many stories from Jewish history and tradition, and recreates them as if those men were somehow Muslims. There is no mention of a Muslim prior to Mohammed, but Mohammed just changes history to suit his desires. He even tried to make Jesus Christ a follower of a god whose name was never recorded throughout history prior to Mohammed's Koran.

There are no 1st person accounts that support anything that Mohammed recounted. There is a collection of Christian and Jewish teachings of the time, however, more of a periphery type of reporting than a report of what was actually taught. the teachings of the Koran that says that Christians worship 3 "gods" ... God, Mary, and their Son Jesus, completely misstates Christianity. The Koran speaks out against the "three", saying "Say not 3", and in context, that there is only one God, and not 3. Well, that is not what Christians believe anyway. God is one being, with 3 aspects .... each still always and fully God. He is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Mary is no mart of that, other than having been chosen to be the mother of Jesus Christ.

These are not minor discrepancies. These are major, structural flaws, that erode completely the premise that the Koran is perfect, the same on earth ad it is in heaven.

I have studied the Koran to a degree. I am not just calling out a sura here or there and looking for a work that might have been mistranslated, or might have been used incorrectly because of punctuation.

Mohammed created the Koran, saying that God would allow a man only 4 wives, and no more. However, his step-son was married to a very beautiful woman, and so the Koran was changed to allow "the prophet"an extra wife. Further, it was accepted that a step son was a son, by all laws and traditions, so he changed that as well, so that he could, essentially, disown his son, and then marry his former son's wife. (after they divorced, of course)

There are so many things like this, where the Koran completely contradicts itself, or changes things halfway through because "the prophet" wants something for himself. My belief is that the Koran, and Islam. were an attempt for an Arab man to create a fully Arab religion, and he used as much of the religions he had been exposed to over his lifetime in order to create a new religion. However, his understanding of these other religions were incomplete, and so things that "Allah" accused these other religions of are simply not true or accurate.

I am not trying to disrespect anyone, just pointing out major, structural flaws in what the religion teaches.

You do know that the Jews don't believe Christ was the Son of God either right?

I fully believe that. In fact, I believe it was Carl Sagan who said that mathematically, there is a high probability of other intelligent life....somewhere out there.

That is quite a stereotype...

My aunt posted on Facebook when my grandma died that my grandma was going to Hell because she wasn't saved. That was awesome. I've had family members say I'm going to Hell for not going to church and worshipping. At my uncle's funeral in his church, the priest tried to convert family members in the audience instead of talking about my uncle and his life. I've had Christians approach me in stores and try to save me as I'm shopping. Minutes after I watched my grandpa pass away in the hospital, a different aunt started asking how much I loved God and telling me I'd better live a good life and thank Him every day I'm alive.

Can I be left alone? It's a simple request. I don't bug other people about their beliefs and tell them they're doomed for eternity for not believing what I do. How much of this crap does a person have to tolerate before telling someone to shut the hell up when approached about being "saved?" Leaving me and others alone would be much appreciated.

Just tell them you would rather burn in hell than go to heaven with them and to go care about someone else. I mean that's how you feel so just be honest and upfront about it.

If they are family that loves and cares about you and they believe with all their heart that your going to burn in hell if they don't lead you to salvation then there is no way they could ever leave you alone because IF they left you alone then it would be the same as saying they don't love you anymore. At least in their eyes anyways.

Does sound like they need to learn some tact though.

Our Forefathers were smart enough to keep Government out of Religion.
The First Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion or impeding the free exercise of religion.

It works both ways.

They are also striking down the ban on gay marriage left and right.

Yes, and it is my understanding that they are then subject to the Mosaic Law that they, as a people, agreed to follow until such time as they accept Christ as the Messiah. The Jewish people still wait for the Messiah. However, the Bible says that the Jewish people will recognize Jesus as the Messiah prior to His return, and at a time after the return of the Jewish people to Israel. The Bible says that the Jewish people will, and in fact must, accept Jesus as the Messiah, and will do so during the Great Tribulation that is to come.

Wrong. The Government has made Gay Marriage ok but can't force Churches to marry you. That would be unconstitutional.

Bro in another thread we had a discussion about how if someone was a douchebag his entire life, if he repented for his sins, YOU said he would be accepted by God.

It's the same damn concept. But yet it can't be so for the Quran?

You're constant back peddling and hypocrisy on this topic is mind boggling.

So far you condemn one religion for doing the same damn thing yours does, yet you think your religion is better than others.

Come on man.


You know what? I'm going to call you out. You, 40, and razor specifically.

if you was truly christian, you would act like pat Robertson, or even that mother from the movie "Carrie".

Or better yet, you would act like Jesus.

But YALL dont. So until yall start living yours lives specifically by what the bible says, I refuse to take you or anybody else seriously on this topic.

Wrong again. Nobody said anything about churches, but you religious nuts have been trying to keep gay marriages banned. That's a fact bro. But the government is allowing them to get married. And YALL don't like it.

Try to keep up now.
I said Our Forefathers were smart enough to keep Government out of Religion.
The First Amendment to the United States Constitution prohibits the making of any law respecting an establishment of religion or impeding the free exercise of religion.

They can ok Gay Marriage but can't force Religions to accept it as ok and can't make the Religions perform a ceremony marrying a Gay couple. Christian Religions see Homosexual acts as sin so they can not be forced to accept it. We are freely exercising our Religion and the Constitution protects us from that being impeded.
We have a Constitutionally protected Right to be Religious Nuts.

Once again you're not paying attention.

Nobody is trying to force churches to marry gays.

But RELIGIOUS people are trying to keep gay marriages banned PERIOD. As in NO marriage in the court house or anywhere.

Try to keep up.

I do wonder what the precedence would be to okay churches to not have to carry out same-sex marriage. Couldn't they then bar certain groups from the congregation based on "we will go to hell if they worship with us" type arguments?

Yes we are against Homosexual Acts and Adultery and Fornication so why wouldn't we fight to keep our Government from making sin the law of the land? It is our Constitutionally protected Right to do so.

Because it's none of your business.

Why are same-sex policies such an abhorrence? I grew up in the church and all "sins" were treated equal. How come there's no push against cleansing all the media airwaves (radio, TV, film, video games, internet), fights against policies which ignore domestic violence, and other such things? Or is this all part of the tree many Christians like to cherry pick from?

Who could ok Churches not to have to marry Gays? We don't need no stinking ok! We see it as sin and we don't have to accept it, period. The Constitution protects our beliefs from the Government. Churches can marry Gays if they want to but can't be forced to.

I'll take it a step further.

Why are people so against same sex marriages, but turn a blind eye on catholic priest touching little boys? That hasn't gotten nearly as much attention as it should, and most of these guys haven't even done jail time.

So it's bad for the government to force something on churches, but ok for the church to force their beliefs on the government?

Hyp-o-crite.

I said that if a man repents and accepts Christ as Savior, then he would be redeemed. It takes both parts. Man can do nothing to make himself justified to God, Man needs God's love and Grace to be saved. The only role man plays in his own salvation is accepting Jesus Christ, and asking for forgiveness for his sins/repenting those sins.



I did not write the Koran. The Koran says that our eternal fates are already decided, and that pious believers of Islam will remain in hell as their final fate, while some of those those who do evil on this earth will enter heaven. Islam says that Allah was responsible for sin on the earth, and it was loosed upon the earth by his will. It teaches that Allah has already decided who will go to heaven, and who will go to hell forever. There is no way for an adherent to Islam to know his eternal fate while on this earth. There is no way of knowing who will enter heaven and who will wind up in hell. Even Mohammed wasn't sure of his eternal fate, and he was supposed to be the prophet of Allah. Mohammed said, in Sura 46:9,

Say, "I am not something original among the messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I only follow that which is revealed to me, and I am not but a clear warner."

That is why Muslims say "Peace be upon him" when speaking of Mohammed, because capricious Allah could keep even his own prophet to hell.

This is completely different than what the Bible teaches. While man is redeemed by the Grace of God, a believer is not left in doubt of his final fate. In Islam, a believer has no idea where his soul will wind up in the afterlife, no matter what he does on this earth, or what he believes.

Please point these out, specifically, so I may address them.



I have not. I have stated where I see specific differences, and specific, significant, and structural problems with Islam. Why is it that you do not address what I wrote, and prove me wrong, instead of just saying that I have done something horrible. I am always willing to listen to the other side of an argument. Show me where something i wrote is wrong.



And how would that be? Please be specific, as it is difficult to answer such generalities.



I am curious as to how you know how I live my life. I freely admit that I have been, and continue to be a sinner. I try to do better, as is my understanding of what God wants from me, but I slip and make mistakes. My Bible teaches me that I am redeemed through Christ, His blood and His body, which was broken on the Cross. Mt Bible teaches me that I can do nothing to earn salvation. I am curious, again, specifically, as to what areas of my life you see as going against what the Bible says? Please be specific. If I am doing something the Bible tells me, as a Christian, who is saved by the spilled blood and the broken body of Christ, hung on the Cross in my place as the price of my salvation ... if you see me doing something wrong, please let me know. Please also let me know what Biblical verses support your accusations. If I am doing something that offends God, then I certainly want to change that. I can always learn. I do not know all there is to know about the Bible. I am studying it, and hope to learn God's Word better, but I am far from perfect. Please give me specifics about what you see as sinful in my life so that I may correct those specific things.

I don't care what you do in the privacy of your home, It is America after all, but when you try to make sin into an acceptable practice and law, well then you involve me cuz I live here too. I will vote NO. My Religion will not marry you because it votes NO also. You can't make us accept it because we will not and the Constitution protects our free speech and protects us from the Government.

I've pointed it out multiple times already your back peddling.

If you can't see how you condemn one while praising another, then we have nothing left to discuss.

All sins are equal but our Government is making same-sex marriage into law. We oppose that.
If they wanted to make Adultery into an acceptable law, we would oppose that too.

We can't clean up the airwaves because of the Constitutional Right to free speech. We don't have to listen to it.
We do have programs to combat domestic violence and we do feed the hungry. I don't see cherry picking, I see liberal media covering only what it wants to cover.

"My religion"

I'm done. Swish, RO, have fun.

I've pretty much stopped too bro.

Ha! Horse Hockey! If you were a real American you would act like John Wayne or Dirty Harry!
Ridiculous.

I am 40 and I am a Christian and I am an American and I will act like 40, the Christian American Browns Fan!
Act like Pat Robertson, geeez

What if your religion said slavery was essential to you being saved?

I suppose they could, but we want to redeem every sinner we can. I have said this before, and I will say it again, ALL sin offends God. If I lie about you, that offends God as much as a sexual act outside of marriage, or even stealing or murder. All sin offends God.

There is a danger for churches in accepting sinful behavior as OK with God. I would have a hard time, for example, if a church had a pastor who was living with his girlfriend, in a sexual relationship, outside of marriage. Likewise, I believe that a church has to stand up to all examples of sinful behavior, and push back against general acceptance of such acts. These include adultery, divorce, (and casual marriage) idolatry, taking God's name in vain, abortion. and yes, homosexual actions. If the Bible says something is sinful, then God's church, which certainly should accept the Bible as its very backbone, should stand for what it teaches.

You can say that you see no slippery slopes with regards to the church and public policy, but look at the recent actions of the administration in trying to force religious organizations to cover abortifacient drugs. Is it the biggest battle to be fought? Maybe not. However, it is a worthwhile battle to fight, so that we do not casually accept more and more things that go against the Bible? Absolutely. Churches would have been forced to do things that violate their beliefs if the administrations position on abortifacient drugs would have stood Constitutional muster. What would have been next? Covering abortions themselves? Every political action has its own inherent slippery slope, and I think that any clear thinking person has to see that. (even if many do not want to admit it) Societal acceptance of gay marriage could easily lead to attempts to create laws where churches are required to do gay marriages, as well as heterosexual marriages. You cannot tell me that no political group has that on their longer term political agenda. There has a concerted effort by many in the political arena to force the church into a secondary ... no, actually even much lower than that, position in society. The church has to stand for its beliefs. The church should have stood firmer against easy marriages and divorce. The church should have stood firmer against easy sexuality and having children out of wedlock. Now the church is being portrayed as "mean" and "intolerant", because they are standing up for a their beliefs ..... finally ..... as to a specific political and societal issue. It should have been done more consistently all along.

What if Pigs had wings?

Please, be specific. I cannot address generalities. I wish to be able to answer your concerns, so please point out specifics that I may address.

I do not condemn Islam. It condemns itself with its own words. I stated specifically why I feel this way, and backed it up with verses from their book, and from the history of the religion. I have studied the religion to a small extent, so if I said something that was wrong, please point it out specifically. If something I stated in my writings was in error, please show me proof that what I said was wrong. This is a much more difficult path than just saying that someone is "back-peddling" without any evidence, and accusing me of other such things ...... but the discussion can be much more rewarding if we stay on the debate at hand, rather than trying to make blind accusations.

Two reasons immediately come to mind:

1. Decriminalizing what you call "sin" is not the same as making homosexuality "law of the land." That distinction MUST be made when it concerns matters of law. In fact, it's not even advocating the practice. It's simply an exercise in civil rights... civil rights that get placed into the canon of law in a secular nation. America is not a theocracy... it's a representative republic.

2. Because this scenario allows your beliefs and biases to supersede the rights of others. It may be constitutionally allowable (...and I'm not even sure about that...) , but it runs counter the the founding proposition "that all men are created equal."

So long as some Americans enjoy rights that are denied other Americans, there is still work to do... in order 'to form a more perfect union.'

Until we're all free, none of us is free.

.02

I must be an odd Christian. But you'll have that when we read a book and interpret it of our own accord. I don't oppose gay marriage being legalized. It's up to each individual to have free will and not be persecuted.

What I'm supposed to do is live my life as I see fit and not judge others or force my belief system upon them. Maybe I'm reading the book wrong but I'm sure if that's so I'll be informed of that at a future time.