DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns parting ways with OC Kyle Shanahan and QB coach Dowell Loggains

I read it as 'these guy are OK, it wasn't that bad', which is what I'd expect a guy to say about an employer who just let him out of his contract.

I'm just wondering what circumstances he is talking about.

He said "in light of the circumstances", but didn't mention any circumstances other than the bad press.

Just more bizarre from the Land of Bizarre...errr, Cleveland.

I read that as the scapegoat.

i.e. 'It was great here, lots of bright minds, I'd love to stay, but all of these recent untrue allegations have made it hard to'.

It seems like straightforward 'say the right things, nobody looks bad' statement to me.

It probably went down like this:

"If you read this prepared statement on Friday, we'll let you out of your contract".

Most of the offensive staff was Pettine guys that he had worked with before he came here, two of those that were not his guys are now gone.

Yeah, no way Pettine of Shanny came up w/their own comments. Both were prepared by the team and an agent.

And the beat goes on...........

have heard McDaniel the WR coach and an assistant Hightower(both came with Shannahan) wont be back but the rest are likely to remain.

Prove it!

Those are the two guys that came from Washington with Shanahan.

I thought that the WR coach did a great job. I hate to see him go.

He is Shanahan's guy. Shanahan is gone, he goes with him.

I understand your disappointment at losing the OC, two years in the same offensive system would be a dream. And I don't excuse the action of the FO (whether it's Haslam or Farmer or both) for interfering in the play calling, but I do have to believe that getting rid of Shanny is probably the right call. I have the sense that he was not a good fit, and I don't believe he really wanted to be here anyway, neither of which is conducive to long term success.

This is what concerns me most:



Link

I believe where there is smoke there's fire, and that those types of personality issues don't simply go away. I also believe that Pettine and Farmer are attempting to build a culture of harmonious and complimentary leadership. Does that mean they're infallible? No. Have they made mistakes? Certainly. But if Shanny has these issues and doesn't want to be here, then I certainly don't want him here, irregardless of his perceived talent level.

JMHO

That does sound like it could be a fairly major concern.

j/c

Seems like some on here are just flabbergasted that the FO would have the audacity to recommend different play calls..... Heck, they should have been in the game day forum, a lot of people were complaining about how predictable first down was. Probably the same posters ripping the FO now, were ripping Shannahan then. Fo probably sent down a message to change it up a bit, and if that was the case - they were probably justified. This really did not create any sort of competitive advantage for the browns.

All things considered, I like Kyle. I thought he did a good job with what he had. The QB coach I would have fired- his job was to have the QB's ready, he failed miserably. Hoyer's mechanics went south, Manziel was ill prepared- that falls on the QB coach.

If Kyle didn't want to be here, then not going to make him stay. It would just create more dysfunction and next season would be a waste. Heck, look at San Fran this year, it was dysfunctional from the get go and it hung over their season- derailed it. I would not want that to happen here. Sad to see Kyle's system go, might not be sorry to actually see the guy go in the long run. I hope we can keep this zone scheme going, the running game could really click and that will help a young QB.

I wonder how harsh the fine will be for using electronic devices -- just hope it isn't draft picks.... Again, its not like the browns created some competitive edge by texting the sideline. Most of us were screaming it from our seats anyways. Its not like we were the patriots taping a practice of our opponent...

I thought that Shanahan's play calls were often sabotaged by the players on the field. That said, if he was dragging the team down behind the scenes, as implied, if not stated, then he has no place on a team coached by Mike Pettine. That should be obvious to even a casual observer. Pettine is all about team, and if any person on this team, player or coach, isn't behaving like part of a team, then I have a hard time seeing him tolerating that person.

They just spoke, on TV, about the Seahawks having a meeting where they talked about teams playing together, but not playing for one another. I think that is something that Pettine values. He has constantly talked about "complimentary football" ..... well, that's exactly what the Seahawks play.

I agree 100%
If Kyle didn't want to be a part of this, then its OK to move on.
I think this is going to hold over to some players as well. Gordon comes to mind. Its get with the program or bye bye....

How about this for a theory: maybe Manziel was never viewed by the FO as a serious consideration to be our 'franchise QB'? Let's not forget, there was a huge effort to re-energize the Cleveland Browns brand. Can you think of any other player, drafted or FA that would have generated the buzz, the interest, and the $$$ that drafting Manziel did? Weren't there two major thoughts on Manziel... either he would "wreck the league" OR he would be an immense flop? If he actually translates to the NFL, great! If he struggles, the company line is "He's a rookie adjusting". No real loss there. If he flops like he did? That's all on Johnny.

Let's face it, there's a real possibility Manziel's marketing value may have already peaked last season. Between his poor play, and mostly because of his poor attitude, realistically I don't see how anyone would think his value to the team is anything more than a "project guy" at this point. Of course that may be how he was viewed as by the FO all along. Now some would say its crazy to spend a #22 pick on a 'project'... but given his marketing value, it just might have been considered the price of doing business.


Well, there's my submission for Most Absurd Post for this thread!

That was an article, you know, written by a bozo. It was also from Washington.

So, we ignore all the articles that paint the FO in a bad light and believe the article that said Kyle complained about the food in the cafeteria?

People seem to believe what they want to believe, rather than using the evidence to formulate an logical interpretation.

And did someone say that posters were saying our playcalling was predictable? What? So, you guys were making predictions like this:

'flip right double-X jet 36 counter naked wagglet seven X quarter.' ????

Or, were you saying, yeah I knew we were going to run it up the middle on first down?

Oh, and whoever said that...........I will freak out about this move if I want to. You moving away from the topic and trying to mock me because I am not following the masses in supporting the FO no matter what they do means absolutely nothing to me.

I just can't help but think: Can you imagine the outrage if this would have happened last year? People were freaking out because the FO wanted the coaches to hold players like Greg Little accountable. This year's FO is telling the coaches who to play and trying to get involved w/playcalling........and it's okay.

It's possible and to a certain degree makes sense.

They certainly knew that marketing angle when they drafted him even if there were questions about his game or if he'd ever be worth a damn at all on the field.

My thoughts…

For what they are worth.

The JF thing was as poorly managed thing as I have EVER scene and after taking the time to think about all the things that transpired over the course of the season and with all the BS that is being kicked around I have reached a few conclusions all of them disappointing to me.


Farmer and Pet are a waste of time. Why you ask?


After clearly mismanaging the QB situation thru the course of the season, they continue to do so into the off season.


Take a look at how Bruce Arians handled the situation in Arizona this year, and compare it to how the QB situation was and is being handled here as we speak. It’s OK to make a mistake but to continue to mismanage the situation is beyond STUPID. It is a display of ignorance. Don’t get me wrong I get the part about learning as you go BUT just what did these folks learn.


Unlike most of the board there has been a consistency to what I am saying here folks. When you choose a QB coming out of camp it’s all hands on deck in TOTAL support of that QB, that’s how this works not this wishy washy to and fro we witnessed this year.


After a lot of thought I have reached the conclusion that the reason this team had at least some measure of success was due to Hoyer. He was the guy who led this team, he was the guy that the team rallied around and believed in. As for the coaches and particularly Pet followed closely by Farmer and ownership they never got on board with Hoyer and hoped almost openly that he would fail.


It was and continues to be the most grossly mishandling of the QB position I have witnessed in quite some time.

As we speak they appear ready to clear the deck for JF in spite of the fact as Vers said Hoyer being the MOST effective QB we have seen in many moons. It goes beyond being the most effective IMO he was a leader that every player on the team offense, defense, ST looked to and believed in.

If the Browns fail IMO to resign Hoyer we are in for more 4 and 5 win seasons, not that 7 was all that great of an improvement but having been where we started from it was much better. I know that most fans continue to blame Hoyer for the collapse at the end of the season, and I disagree. I think the collapse falls squarely on PET and Farmer.


When Hoyer had proven himself worthy of support the pat answer was we will continue to evaluate the position on a week to week bases. Not a big deal right, take a look at how Bruce Arians handled the situation and compare, and then step back and compare it against how things were handled here and then take a look at the results.


Sorry to say guys and girls but this team isn’t going anywhere unless management stops airing their dirty laundry in public, learns the difference between positional players and QB’s and the importance of supporting your QB publicly and to your team.


We all KNOW to a dead certainty that if you under perform on the field you will be gathering splitters, but publicly its full support to your players and especially your QB. Until Pet and Farmer learn this lesson we will fail as a team.


JMHO

I think there are many fans who are very wary of the FO right now...before the Shanny-thing and more so after. Sure those people are going to be more critical of Shanny because of his past and because he's now suddenly gone.

We are starved for some continuity...we can't undue the Shanny-thing...we have to roll with the guys who remain. We will work to polish that turd. Then...given time...the critical eye will look at those who are still around.

We are in the departed girlfriend syndrome. If WE decided she should go, all would be peaches and candy and ice cream and cake right now. But since she dumped us, we need to focus on any wart she may have had and that we used to dig. Eventually we will figure out that there is plenty of blame to go around and it's now time to move on.

The best way to re-energize the Browns brand is simple. Just start winning games. Put an above .500 team on the field and the fanbase will come out in droves.

Or keel over from heart attacks.

Vers, I've been trying to see it from both the FO and Shanahan.

Shanahan portrays he is the victim. To me, he committed career suicide. If you are that unhappy, fine you leave saying your goodbyes and move on. Knowing the Browns get a ton of flack for being dysfunctional and stating you want out at the same time burning a bridge. That cannot look good getting employment elsewhere in the good-ol-boy world.

As for the FO, why create an unhappy environment for your coaches. Who in the organization was making the demands? From what we are hearing, it sounds like the ivory tower method of management. All the decision making goes on upstairs. A little piece paper is sent down informing the masses what steps are needed.

In both cases, you have a very poor environment. It is obvious Haslam put together a successful business. Putting together a management team described above never works. You have to scratch your head wondering why this approach.

Stepping back looking at the whole thing. Are we fans being played again receiving partial facts? We certainly been played in the past with half truths. Even when proven later much of what was reported was wrong. The truth is dismissed and the lie continues.

To me, both stories seem so far out there I can't tell which side makes sense. We are getting so much conflicting stories too. It is like a feeding frenzy of gossip. No on can report anything about the Browns except what you find in tabloids. Sad.

Willie and bugs........and others: My apologies. My post made it sound like I believe all posters feel that way. That's wrong. Many of you are taking a logical stance on all of this.

I am still upset because the play design I saw this year was the best I have ever seen from the new Browns. I really liked Arians and I defended him up until the bitter end, but Shanny's system is even better. I really thought I saw some genius in how he gets guys open and his run blocking schemes are extremely solid.

I do wonder how many people have considered that we played w/out 3 Pro Bowl players on offense for most of the year and that our qb was a guy who had been cut by several teams? Add in two rookie RBs, implementing a completely brand new system, interference from the FO, a no-name WR group.....

...and I'm not sure what people expected?

But anyway.......I apologize to guys like you two for lumping everyone in the same group.

Sorry Bugs,

But all you have to do is look at one situation that occurred during the season and you will have your answer.

Who's idea was it to play JF?

It's hard if not impossible for me not to reach the conclusion that Haslam made the call. Unless of course you believe that the coaches didn't know he wasn't ready. In which case they are idiots and shouldn't be associated with a professional football team. That conclusion is easily made without so much as connecting one dot. The playing calling Haslam all the way, no doubt. Proving it may be another matter, of course one must put aside good reasoning in favor of what they want to believe -vs- the obvious.

Here is another thing, did anyone notice JF charting plays last year? It's wierd but I don't remember seeing a clip board anywhere near him....

Seems to me he had it just how he wanted it, party all night show up late and do NOTHING.. Accountability was the theme, how is it that JF gets handed the QB spot and does absolutely NOTHING to earn it? your answers are staring you straight in the face, of course 1st you have to set aside your hoped for answer and face the obvious......

When you finally face the obvious you realize we are headed for troubled waters. The reason Chud was let go becomes claerer and clearer and the reasons Pet is here becomes clearer as well.

We are screwed this time, permanently unless Haslam learns what he don't know in a hurry.

Are you sure BTTB?

The thing that puzzles me the most is early in the season JFF can come in for a series and be productive not once, not twice, but on several occasions.

THEN, he gets his first start and cannot do jack. On top of all that Shaw starts and makes plays. Everyone looks at JFF as the problem.

You don't think Shanahan got a little pissed when told JFF is starting when he wanted Hoyer. I wonder how the weekly game plan was put together. JFF struggled on every series. Wow, in a weeks time, Johnny can't learn one series of plays? No one questions that as odd.

I also question why the offense never improved when Hoyer struggled. My football knowledge isn't that sharp, but to me, it appeared there wasn't a lot of adjustments made once Mack went down. Time after time pressure came right up the middle. Browns had nothing to stop it.

Don't get me wrong I thought JFF wasn't ready. I also am a firm believer Pettine should have stuck with Hoyer.

I have serious questions how the Browns offense played the second half the season. Yes, schedule got tougher. They got Gordon back. Gordon played well his first game. His remaining games he fell silent.

All I am saying something isn't right here. Is it Shanahan or the front office. Arguments can be made for both sides.

I know what my answer is.

And we will be able to find out next year because we can compare what Shanny's offense does and what our offense does.

Then again, I have a hunch that most will not discuss what stance they took after this all plays out. LOL

I'm no X's-and-O's guru either, but I thought the OL played better with Greco at C and McQuistan at RG, rather than McDonald or Seymour at C and Greco at RG. I know conventional wisdom is that it is better to weaken only one position, not two, but in the Steelers game, Greco / McQuistan dominated the Steelers' DL after Mack left the game.

Vers, you make the same mistake we all do...we love the Browns. It really sucks when we all know how to fix it and wonder why these idiots can't read this forum for answers!

I believe the picture painted before us is made to look simple. It is easy to sell "dysfunctional." I really think Haslam is trying maybe to hard. No businessman wants to be where Haslam is today. I have to believe he is doing everything he can to get out of the hole he fell into. This is why I think we are not seeing everything here. Anything management says or do is going to look bad. Once again he is stuck in rock and hard place with no easy solution.

I hear you!

I believe we are close. JFF maybe not the right guy to take us to the promise land. My gosh he can't be the complete zero we saw starting. If Tim Tebow can win games, I have to believe JFF can do something.

On paper Shanahan looks the part. When he had the same troubling thing happen in two different environments you have to wonder. I think Kyle is a brilliant OC. I think he may lack people skills. Everyone has a good and bad side.

It sucks when other teams make it work. Browns, you can go back to the very beginning. Damm they attract trouble like flies.

spoiled Billionaire feeling the need to control everything and spoiled coaches son with entitlement issuesThrow in Kim Kardashian at QB and your best players wants to be Tommy Chong, yea go figure lol , what could possibly go wrong in that relationship lol

Pettine needs a raise lol

Dave, Steelers DL is not very good. Cincy, on the other hand, can destroy most OLs in the league. Buffalo too.

It didn't take a genius to figure out where the Browns were weak after watching film on those two games.

To me, it seemed like the only solution was putting another player at center. I thought with defenses concentrating that much on the middle there had to be weaknesses elsewhere.

Very good my friend , spot on !

that hits the nail on the head
except you forgot to add where the Browns need to ask some posters on this board how things should be run

That's almost sigworthy!

So, what was Pettine's role in this discussion on JM? Were Shany and Pettine butting heads as well? Could the spoiled billionaire be inserting himself to keep his coach out of the garbage and focused on the field?

Maybe it was discussed back in the pages, but what was Pettines stance on Hoyer? We all assume (well maybe just me) that Pettine was 100% against the JM starting, but maybe not...maybe (specualtion) Pettine wanted to try and go with JM as a last gasp but Shanny was like 'no way'... so you have Loggs wanting JM and Shanny not.. Pettine is now in the middle of a no win scenario. In steps the FO to to back Pettine?

Maybe far fetched, but I'll drink the spiked Kool-aid and hope the phoenix rises from the ashes

I have said all along that I liked Shanahan's play calling, and think that he did a nice job of getting guys wide open. I think that his offense was rolling until Mack got hurt.

That said, he could still have been a malcontent. Who knows?

Any opinion is speculation unless you were in the room, but every indication shows Pettine giving Hoyer every chance he could.

Among the fans (some who post on this very message board), the print media, the TV or radio media, or on the team? Whom are you asking about? I think that the team was pressured into playing Manziel due to bad play by Hoyer, calls from every media outlet and message boards such as this one.

Let's say that it was Haslam made it clear that he wanted Pettine to start Manziel. Do you think he didn't read newspapers and website articles about the Browns QB situation? Do you think he didn't hear anything on the radio or see TV shows calling for Manziel? Even if Haslam made such a decision, he was like Caesar giving the fans what they wanted.