DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns parting ways with OC Kyle Shanahan and QB coach Dowell Loggains

I respect that opinion, I just disagree with it completely.

Hoyer's main problem in 2013 was his mechanics. He made smart throws but didn't have the arm strength that got him into a little trouble (3 INTs v. Minn), but made enough plays to offset them because he was reading the defense well (3 TDs in that same game). On many of those throws that floated he had this propensity to have his body going backwards especially when he was rolling out.

2014 and the same problems persisted. Yes, he was coming back from an ACL tear, but he was also reportedly in Berea every day outside of maybe 7 from the end of season until training camp. He should have been watching tape and drilling what he could to always step into his throws. Instead, he was still making the same mistakes. He was still making some plays and getting away with some floaters early on though.

At some point, the defenses started shifting to attack the run game and play a deep zone on the pass game, which Hoyer never had an answer to (arm strength and poor mechanics). I had hopes for him to correct these things, but they actually got worse.

Now, perhaps a better QB coach could help him overcome the mechanics and he could play more consistently at the level he demonstrated early in the year. If so, then he'd be a middling but useable starting QB (note: that'd be better than any we've recently had). I just cannot see it happening here.

Honestly, I'd rather gamble on the upside of Locker or Bradford (through trade or if he's cut) even with their injury histories. I want his QB position solved and I don't think Hoyer is the solution.

on 2 of those INTs he had plenty of zip on the ball. just a bad read or didn't see the defender. the other. either was tip at the LOS or just threw while going down in the endzone for a safety.

Joe Thomas “disappointed” by lack of offensive continuity

Posted by Josh Alper on January 14, 2015, 7:08 AM EST

During his time as the Browns left tackle, Joe Thomas has gotten used to upheaval.

The team has had multiple owners, General Managers and head coaches since he was a 2007 first-round pick and the changes on offense have come even when things remain stable in those areas. Like this offseason, for example.

Kyle Shanahan is out as offensive coordinator, which means that Thomas will be playing for his sixth different offensive coordinator in the last six years and the seventh since he came to Cleveland. Thomas didn’t greet news of the change with a smile.

“I was disappointed that Kyle left because I thought he did a good job, and obviously I’d like to have continuity on the offensive side of the ball,” Thomas said, via the Akron Beacon Journal. “It’s not something we’ve had for a while.”

Thomas said Shanahan’s departure lessened his good feelings about the return of coach Mike Pettine “a small amount” while expressing confidence that Pettine would pick the right person to lead the offense in 2015. Thomas knows that whoever takes the job is only going to go as far as the team’s quarterback will take them, which is why he said he certainly wants “some clarity at that position” come next season.

link

Poor Joe. Not sure why they even bother making him go through the line of questioning about change anymore.

They could use his first one after changing offensive schemes and/or HCs and replay it yearly.

"Hate to see him go"
"Love to have continuity"
"I trust the FO make the right decisions"

That would be efficient. Just general reflection this morning: What benefits if any, and to what geree if so, have all these trumped up QB controversies produced? Going with Romeo's gut was one of the worst I remember.

As Pettine announces he wants to change some things for next season, I hope he puts the most effort into those things that matter most in terms of improving us. JT nailed this one IMO. Look at every team hasn't put itself through this sidecar distraction, has a clear starter out front and how differently the can approach training camp, and lesser amounts, The Draft.

I would have some requirements on the play selection and mix on the next OC. Blunt and simple.

Not sure where I read it or even if it's accurate, but it supposedly was a couple of underlings texting between each other and it somehow landed on Shannys messages.

Again, I may be wrong on this. I can't site an article but I know I read it about the time that Shanahans statement came out.

The only quote I remember in an attempt for media members to get specifics was "non-football personnel".

Wouldn't that leave out Farmer? But it doesn't eliminate Haslam.

Damn, I wish I could remember where I saw this..

That would' probably mean Haslam or Scheiner, right?

Yeah, but I still think I remember seeing that they were talking about underlings which puts Haslam and Scheiner out of contention.

Anyway, this is all speculation until I can find the article I read.. As of right now, I can't ever remember where it was.

I have not seen it reported as underlings. I've only seen the texts that were allegedly sent as coming from a 'high ranking official'. Maybe I missed something?


CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The NFL is investigating a report by cleveland.com that a high-ranking Browns personnel member texted from the press box to the sidelines about play calls during a game.

Article



The NFL opened an investigation into the allegations on Friday, ESPN reports, just days after Cleveland.com first reported about the text controversy on Tuesday in a single line in a larger article about the troubles between the Browns coaching staff and the team’s front office.

“One source said some coaches became upset when a high-ranking personnel member texted from the press box to the sidelines about play calls,” according to the Cleveland.com report.

Washington Post Article

Kyle Shanahan saw the Browns as a train wreck and he opted to leap off. That made him the No. 1 topic in this week’s Hey Tony.

Hey Tony: Your best guess? Who was the "high-ranking" member of the Browns’ front office to text down to the sidelines during games with opinions on play calling to OC Kyle Shanahan? Do you think that was the straw that broke the camel’s back?

-- Joe, Palm Desert, CA

Hey Joe: What I’ve seen of the reporting on this story has been incomplete. What I know is that there were non-football personnel texting disparaging remarks about coaching decisions, play-calls and use of players to each other during games. It was like two fans holding texting conversations during games. The problem was the “fans” were team employees who exercised bad judgment. When coaches became aware of what was going on, they were understandably put off and brought it to the attention of GM Ray Farmer. From what I know, it was not a case of texting play suggestions to coaches. But what was going on was inappropriate and symptomatic of the counter-productive culture within the organization that keeps it from winning. I don’t believe it was the main reason Shanahan asked out of his contract, but rather a justification for his desire to seek greener pastures.

http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&action=blog&r=18&post_id=41621



Original report was High ranking officials and everybody jumped on the it was Haslam / farmer bandwagon... then tbnis from Grossi.

Not sure what the real story is... it's all speculation.

I doubt the NFL will be able to find anything.

They have no arm of power with which to investigate.

Hell they cant even find a tape from an elevator... doubt they will find anything here either.

Agree. I wouldn't be surprised if the NFL obligatorily put out the statement they were investigating the texts to pacify the media that noted a potential violation of league rules.

We'll likely get a statement from the NFL six months from now that states that no league violations were discovered. The story has kind of died on the vine already.

Hey..........finally something I agree w/since the last time I read this thread. What a bunch of hog-wash before this. And gee........it came from a player.

Before reading that, the only thing I pretty much saw was that Banner, Lombardi, Shanny, and Loggaines were all devils and we are better off w/out Shanny and Loggains and that Haslam, Farmer, and Pettine were all angels.

What a load of crap.

Shanny is gone because he saw the Browns FO for what it is..........a group of arrogant, stumbling-bumbling idiots.

I don't know really what to say in counter to your views about Haslam and Farmer. It seems like whether anyone loves them or hates them, there really isn't much actually reported to definitively support either side.

Pettine... I just don't see him as the puppet some are trying to make him out to be. With the way Hoyer and the offense was playing, I don't doubt (or even blame) the FO was pushing to get Johnny on the field. Be ticked he eventually caved, but what else is the guy going to do? I really do think he's the type of guy to stand by someone like Hoyer through thick and thin, but what happens when Haslam fires him as fast as he did Chud?

My next question is who gave the impression to the FO that Johnny was ready? Throughout the year I know when asked, all the coaches were saying he COULD come in and play if he needed to, but I think we would all expect that to be said. Was it Loggains? The guy that no one seems to know just what he was doing all season.. Week 15 and Manziel is clearly not ready... late in the season Hoyer's technique is all fouled up... sounds like things a QB coach is hired for.

But I don't think anyone is in disagreement for firing him.

As to Shanny... if its true that he was secretly looking around behind Pettine's back while he was on vacation, why WOULD he want to keep him here? That shows no loyalty, no respect towards him OR the team. I don't think anyone would have held it against him to entertain offers from other teams, after all, he IS a good/great OC. That should be expected. But to be so behind the back about it? of course IF that's true. I'm willing to lend some credence to that because Shanny couldn't go anywhere unless the Browns released him from his contract, and they completely cut ties before he had an offer.

Also consider, its not enough to have a good/great OC. The OC has to have bought in to the same vision as everyone else on the team. It's possible that Shanny just wasn't the RIGHT good/great OC we need going forward.

Ok, just a couple of items.

First, it does not say if the texts were acknowledged or if Shanahan responded.

Second, everyone questions the calls of the OC. It is a God given right of any fan, player, coach, or owner of any NFL team. You can put that into the NFL Bylaws and our constitution. It comes with the territory.

Rish,

You're not alone in this. I like Hoyer and what he has done for the team this past season. Yes as an individual he struggled toward the end, but I seriously don't think that this team makes as much progress in terms of maturing and building that belief that they can be a winning team without him.

Having said that, even I'm not convinced that HOyer is a guy to build a franchise around... but he IS a guy you can build a team around. The way the team responds with him in the game vs. how they responded when Johnny was in I should think is obvious to anyone with eyes. My hopes is that we get an OC who runs a similar offense so that we aren't starting from scratch, Hoyer is signed to a 1 year "show me" contract, and he's named the starting QB for 2015 from the get go. Manziel has put himself in a position where IMO he needs to earn the right to create a open competition for the #1 spot.

That's a possibility. Maybe even a distinct possibility. However:

There are other explanations that make just as much sense, too.

IMHO, he took the job to HAVE a job... and never stopped looking for a greener pasture once he landed here. He knows he's a hot ticket in the NFL. He's smart enough to know his value, given his ability to run schemes, work with the personnel he has, etc.

I don't think he ever viewed the Browns as anything other than a stepping stone in his career.... because if a guy is good at his job, he knows it. If that guy is even the slightest bit ambitious, he'll always be looking to raise his profile/standard of employment. Believe me when I say this: I DON'T hold that against him. In fact, it's to be expected in the NFL. Hell, it's to be expected in ANY profession.

We MAY have Gumbys running the show in the FO. For me, it's still too early to tell. Heck, most of them have only been here 15 minutes longer than Pettine, and about 30 minutes longer than Shanny. For me, that's not long enough to take the measure of an entire staff of people, much less have a definitive opinion about their professional character or efficacy.

Shanny MAY have- as you say- "seen them for what they were." Let's face it- he had more intimate dealings with them than any fan on this message board. He MAY have had his own plans which didn't include a long-term tenure as Browns OC. He MAY have come here with a sense of commitment, but found himself at cross-purposes with the direction that others were planning... be that Pettine, the rest of the coaching crew, or the FO.

ANY OF THESE ARE EQUAL POSSIBILITIES.

At this point, we don't know. We most probably will NEVER know.

Although your theory holds as much water as any other, there are other theories that make just as much sense, considering the info we fans have..

I don't think any of us will ever know the real truth behind what went on. The ONE thing I keep wishing for is a FO/Coaching staff that can work together for 3-7 years. If we can get that, most of our perennial woes will be gone and forgotten... and the Browns will be perennial playoff contenders.

This internal dysfunction MUST be eradicated. If it isn't, the Browns' woes will continue in perpetuity... and I don't think either you or I could stand that.



.02
You pal,
Clemmy

Further, there are reports that the Browns had quietly been checking into the availability of other OC, who ran a scheme that Pettine was more comfortable with.

Perhaps Shanahan caught wind of this, and asked out because the Browns were going to dump him anyway.

I don't know for sure, but it does, at least, seem possible.

Or, maybe the Browns were dead set on firing Loggains, and Shanahan objected.

Possibly they were going to fire Loggains, and Pettine made it clear that he was going to be the main voice in who we hired, and Shanahan made noise about being unhappy about that.

Who knows? There are so many things that "could have" happened that it is hard to say what truly did happen.

Every incarnation of the Browns front office since 1999 has been a battlefield of contenting egos, from top to bottom.

That will fail every time.

Would you please explain what you mean by "contenting egos"? Do you mean that they are all egotists who are content with just getting to the position they gained? I suppose I could see that with Holmgren, for sure .... but not most of the others. Holmgren was at the end of his time as a relevant person within the NFL, and he acted as though he could do whatever he wanted, because he was getting paid. I don't think that most of the rest were that complacent though. I think that most of the rest still wanted to succeed, even if they were unable to do so.

I think he meant "contending egos" not "contenting egos."

Honestly that's how my brain read it..

That makes sense ... or maybe "contentious".

Thanks. That makes sense then.

This.

yep.

hey, we can hope that Shanny was the only one not one board right?.... Right?

And him leaving will put everyone on the same page, all puling in the samwe direction.

I know, I know... not likely.

Hope the opiate of the Browns fan.

j/c

Has Kyle Shanahan done any interviews HC or OC? I think there was one confirmed interview with Buffalo for HC. I hear a lot of speculations.

Other teams change coachs too and they seem to do ok. Why can't we?

We tend to either give them too much power, or pair them with executives that aren't a good fit.

We can change a coach, coordinator, or both almost every year. That is a problem.

Just wondering why no one but me is commenting on what Joe Thomas said?

May I take a guess?

Might it have anything to do w/it not fitting into your tight little argument that Shanny and Loggains were incompetent and devils and that Haslam, Farmer, and Pettine are angelic geniuses?


Pick and choose articles depending on if they fit your point of view. That's the ticket. Don't try to discern the real truth. Just roll w/your opinion on things, ignore contrary evidence, and tie a neat little bow over your very, very small box.

How's that, Clem?

nobody commented on what Joe T said because we all know what he said is correct. pretty much anything he comments on is accurate.

But why did so many comment on some non-factual crap about Shanny being a "me" person? Seriously.......he complained about the cafeteria food in Washington? LMAO

Swish........I'm not stupid. I know exactly what is going down here.