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I'm going to have to stop mocking Mitch Morse to us. I watched Missouri/South Carolina last night and theres no way he makes it to the third day.
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Probably sooner than we all think if that article is correct.!!
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You evaluate the player and the person not the school or the system because in a year the system will mean nothing. What will matter is how quickly the player and person adapts to the concepts of the NFL.First and foremost I look at the technique and play over the system. But lets face facts. A One read system is indicative of the transition needed to convert all those gifts to the NFL level. Weeden, Tannehill, others - its a tough transition. Why they are making a big thing over Winston playing in a Pro Style offense.
So system translates into who could start Game 1 and who could benefit in breaking old habits by sitting. Actually I was not a believer of that...but I listened to my learned dawgs here who would drill the point in and I find them to be correct and my perceptions of don't matter, Incorrect. Unfortunately College is going all out in this One Read systems cause frankly it works and they don't do anything for the NFL they do it for their programs.
Physical facts...and extra year playing all true but I fail to see that as a reason to separate the two. Bigger? yeah but I think to even consider to be a big time running threat you have to get around 240 big or get hurt.
Mariota's straight speed is there. I like his explosion and JM also. I think Mariota actually is more apt to put the head down and run out of the two.
Manziel added weight will slow him down...not in the science of 2015. Could JM ever be 240... Only if he wears a polyester Jump suit 
Mariota did what was asked of him to perfection.
Manziel's problem is nobody asked him to expand. His coaches were hey if it ain't broke don't fix it.
Manziel Jake Matthews was a constant for him...but you look at the two Mariota never had that over 3 seconds you were going to have to scramble environment. JM had that.
Mariota is a stand up guy. Unfortunately that doesn't mean much - Tebow was more Stand up than Mariota. I mean give me a Bobby Lane anyday over a choirboy.
I agree the biggest difference between the two is the effort and work ethic is on Mariota's side and the more I learn - big time.
I'm not saying Mariota will not succeed. I'm saying the reasons many say - I called it before we draft him - and then say silly stuff like arm strength footwork things they really have no knowledge about. Mariota n JM are close together in those areas.
I also agree a lot of these top 5 pick QBs get thrown to the wolves with a bad team and usually cause the team just doesn't have a QB. They will start. Why I thought Hoyer was so good for JM to have. But it appears he through an entire year of learning away and isn't too much more than a rookie again.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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Manziel is not overly fast, but has the ability to change direction quickly. It is one of his better abilities and why so many defenders miss him.
FWIW I am not on the Manziel bandwagon now because of all of the off field stuff. But you have to be fair in evaluations.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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All Pro
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The real difference between the two players starts with their approach to their job. And their ceiling if they reach their full potential which comes from their commitment. Mariota plain and simple has a lot more to work with. His ceiling is higher and his potential to get there is higher because of his work ethic.
This seems rather obvious but is well stated. It is the real problem with Johnny Football. We can argue all day about whether his type of QB can succeed. But if he doesn't prepare, shows up late to meetings and acts like a drunken, spoiled jackass, there is just no way he ever succeeds. And after what we saw, I just don't know that he can change.
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I'm a bit bummed, because we're sitting here with 12 and 19 and there are no wideouts I feel really good about using those picks on. After Cooper I do like Parker the best... but #12? I'm just not sure he's really that good. He's not a great route runner. (Of course, I said the same thing about Evans and Benjamin last year and they did just fine.)
Last edited by clevesteve; 01/25/15 07:20 PM. Reason: junk
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I am hoping we sign one the better free agent guys to make this a moot point.
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12th Amari Cooper WR
19th Cedric Ogbuehi OT
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Man I really wanted Matthews last year. I thought that kid would be a bargain where he fell. I just don't see that kind of second round talent at WR in this years draft.
In this draft, I have a feeling you would really have to overpay to get that talent level.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
#gmstrong
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Man I really wanted Matthews last year. I thought that kid would be a bargain where he fell. I just don't see that kind of second round talent at WR in this years draft.
In this draft, I have a feeling you would really have to overpay to get that talent level. I like Matthews (and Moncrief too), but the team went with Gilbert and Manziel. I didn't think that we necessarily had to go for both Matthews and Moncrief, but it would have been nice. Sadly, we gave up a third to get Manziel and Moncrief was available with that selection. Matthews was available with the selection we used on Bitonio, but I can't complain too much about that. It was a solid selection to make although Derek Carr was still available and we could have had Zack Martin instead of Gilbert. Looking bad makes me sad.
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I was really high on Moncrief last year too. I don't think this years crop of receivers is as deep as last year but I do think there could be good talent into the forth or fifth round.
I don't think Gordon will ever play here again. That was highly likely before this news broke.
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12: Danny Shelton, NT Washington
19: Vic Beasley, OLB Clemson
43: Maxx Williams, TE Minnesota
77: Jake Fisher, OL Oregon
108: Rashad Greene, WR Florida State
112: Tony Lippett, WR Michigan State
That, to me, would be a wonderful draft..
I doubt all those guys will be there for those picks.. But yeah..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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12: Danny Shelton, NT Washington
19: Vic Beasley, OLB Clemson
43: Maxx Williams, TE Minnesota
77: Jake Fisher, OL Oregon
108: Rashad Greene, WR Florida State
112: Tony Lippett, WR Michigan State
That, to me, would be a wonderful draft..
I doubt all those guys will be there for those picks.. But yeah.. It would certainly fill needs, and add depth on the OL.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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[1] 12) Ereck Flowers, OT Miami {24} [starter]
[1] 19) Malcom Brown, DL Texas {20}
[2] 43) Clive Walford, TE Miami {59} [starter]
[3] 79) Ladarius Gunter, CB Miami {131} [starter]
[4] 112ish) Justin Hardy, WR East Carolina {111} [starter]
[4] 116ish) Stephone Anthony, ILB Clemson {170}
[5] 151ish) Antwan Goodley, WR Baylor {178}
[6] 189ish) Max Garcia, C Florida {224}
[6] 202ish) Josh Robinson, RB Miss St {202}
[7] 227ish) Jemauria Rasco, OLB LSU {226}
Offense: 23
QB: Hoyer, Manziel, Shaw (PS)
RB: West, Crowell, Robinson
FB: Winston
X: Hardy, Goodley, Benjamin
Z: Hawkins, Gabriel
TE: Walford, Dray, Barnidge
LT: Thomas, Schwartz
LG: Bitonio
C: Mack, Garcia
RG: Greco, Painter
RT: Flowers, Bowie
Defense: 27
DE: D. Bryant, M. Brown
NT: P. Taylor, I. Kitchen
DE: B. Winn, J. Hughes
LOLB: P. Kruger, J. Rasco
ROLB: *A. Bryant, B. Mingo, S. Solomon
SILB: K. Dansby, S. Anthony, T. Carder
WILB: C. Robertson, C. Kirksey
CB: J. Haden, P. Desir
CB: L. Gunter, J. Gilbert
Nickel: K. Williams, R. Nelson
FS: T. Gipson, J. Poyer
SS: D. Whitner, J. Bademosi
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That's not a bad draft but I think we need to bring in a fa qb because even if we resign BH we don't know about JM. At this point we can't rely on JM even if he comes back 100%. Ryan Mallet may be a good choice.
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Yeah I'd take Mallett on a FA deal for sure.
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I don't see Mallett leaving Houston. And if he does I don't think he would sign with a team that already has a potential veteran starter on it.
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If the Browns were to land this draft I'd be ecstatic ...unfortunately they will reach on nearly all of them as always lol
1a. DT Shelton- nucleus for Dline
1b. OLB Fowler Jr- Pass rush specialist
2. WR Jaelen Strong- Big natural plucker lol
3. OT Jake Fisher- Originally liked OT Daryyl Williams...Fisher fits the scheme better as he's very nimble
4a. C Max Garcia- Tough scrappy to groom behind Mack
4b. DE Travis Raciti- DE for 3rd downs
5. S Isiah Johnson- backup safety with size to groom
6a. TE Jean Sifrin- next Ladarius Green
6b. OG Brandon Vitabile- Scheme approved backup
7. ILB Curtis Grant- depth for aging Dansby
In Free agency I'd target WR Crabtree, TE Gresham, FB Felton, OLB Akeem Ayers, DT/DE Cedric Thornton, trade Benji and a very late 2016 pick for Rams WR Chris Givens
Resign: Gibson, Robertson, Skrine, Hoyer
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J/C
I've been high on Shelton and I remain so. Still, if the team did take a top receiver at twelve I would not be upset with Malcom Brown or Jordan Phillips at 19. A lot will be cleared up by what happens in free agency. Based on remarks by Haslam I don't think they will be as involved as last year.
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J/C
I've been high on Shelton and I remain so. Still, if the team did take a top receiver at twelve I would not be upset with Malcom Brown or Jordan Phillips at 19. A lot will be cleared up by what happens in free agency. Based on remarks by Haslam I don't think they will be as involved as last year. I think Haslam is being coy. My guess is that they may be targeting some particular free agents and don't want to tip any notions. There are a few teams with lots of cap space and they could very well be taking looks at the same players that the Browns could be. I think that the Browns, while they have lots of cap space, would probably front load any free agent signings so that they aren't worrying about getting saddled down with unworkable contracts down the road.
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Passing on Shelton for a MLB? No.. I don't want them to draft for us..
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Passing on Shelton for a MLB? No.. I don't want them to draft for us..  I found the notion ludicrous without even looking at who they drafted and who was still "on the board" in their mock draft. When you wrote your response, I looked to see that Danny Shelton was selected #13, immediately after the Browns.
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Well they do have Brett Hundley going to the Jets in the 2nd round (pick 37).
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WalterFootball has us taking Eddie Goldman (DL, FSU) at #12 (They have Shelton going #7) and Vic Beasley (OLB, Clemson) at #19..
I'm fine with both of those..
They then have us going
Garret Grayson, QB, CSU (No late round QBs please, pointless)
Ty Montgomery, WR, Stanford (I'd rather go OL here)
Clive Walford, TE, Miami (Hope we can get Maxx Williams in the 2nd)
Tony Lippett, WR, MSU (Love this pick)
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Passing on Shelton for a MLB? No.. I don't want them to draft for us.. I found the notion ludicrous without even looking at who they drafted and who was still "on the board" in their mock draft. When you wrote your response, I looked to see that Danny Shelton was selected #13, immediately after the Browns. As far a Drafttek goes, when I've seen head scratching drafts in the past I sent an email to this guy, Michael Sudds <msudds1@gmail.com> to question their reasoning. He's a good guy and will respond pretty quickly.
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I've picked White myself for the #19 pick.
Didn't know much about the ILB they have us taking at #12.
Screw them for the Clown Car reference. Only Divisional Rival Fans uses that reference! 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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McKinney is a baller for sure and a first round talent, but I'm not sure taking him there improves our team the most with that selection. I also think La'el Collins in the second is a total pipe dream.
I think it's pretty clear from reading the comments on their picks that they don't watch a lot of college football. Adding the reasoning behind the picks is pretty disingenuous IMO because that website is designed to be the result of computer simulation... which has it's merits... but what is the point of tacking on some ad hoc reasoning to support your algorithm's selection?
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[color:#FFCC33]I've picked White myself for the #19 pick. Didn't know much about the ILB they have us taking at #12. Screw them for the Clown Car reference. Only Divisional Rival Fans uses that reference! White? As in the WR Kevin White? That's your preference at 19 or am I 'misremembering' what you wrote. (shout out to Brian Williams)
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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I've picked White myself for the #19 pick. I don't know whether he'll make it to #19. If he's still on the board there, I'd be very tempted to select him...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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I've picked White myself for the #19 pick.
Didn't know much about the ILB they have us taking at #12.
Screw them for the Clown Car reference. Only Divisional Rival Fans uses that reference! White? As in the WR Kevin White? That's your preference at 19 or am I 'misremembering' what you wrote. (shout out to Brian Williams)
Brian Williams I hope that is not the LYING ASS REPORTER and you are calling me a liar.
From the first thread on the draft I've stated the Williams from USC as 12 if gone then the RT Schreff from Iowa. At 19 my first choice was White the WR.
I have my views on WRs chosen high but I also have views of having two picks in the first round. That 2nd pick can be a pick of LUXURY or NEED.
Like many about the draft my views bounce all over the place which doesn't mean I've changed my mind on White becoming a Brown. I wouldn't mind. I have also stated that possibly due to the uncertainty of last years two draft picks in the first we might make more sure things which usually involve the Line Of Scrimmage. So I've noted OL DL with our first two picks.
I expect an apology if that is what you were referring to. And if that was I would hope next time you would an actual man up with balls and come right out and call me a liar.
If I'm totally wrong on your reference then NEVER MIND... [/color]
Last edited by eotab; 02/12/15 12:18 PM.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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You are totally wrong in my reply. Me typing 'misremembering'= my shout out to Brian Williams...Geez.  As he was quoted as saying he 'misremembered' getting shot at in a plane. I am just interested that you want to take a WR in the first round....that seems different than your approach on the position in past draft conversations, especially when we don't have a legit starting QB. No one here is calling to A LIAR....I simply switched one word to poke fun at Brian Williams. Nothing more....phew. I would have just used misunderstood if I knew that'd be your reaction.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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In my best Rosanne Annodanna Voice (from old time SNL) NEVER MIND...lol 
I didn't know how to react...literally I'm looking at mock drafts up to the 3rd round and saying to myself where is this Williams I referred to?
Then it hit me...the lying Brian Willliams...me a liar? Thats all hope you can see how I miss read that to be calling me a liar. No harm no foul and never any grudges...I hope.
my bad I think??? anyways glad it wasn't how I interpreted it. 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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A miscommunication.
I was trying to poke fun at Brian Williams, not you. It wasn't written correctly to unequivocally make that point.
Last edited by MemphisBrownie; 02/12/15 01:12 PM.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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This is where I'm at right now for the Browns in the draft. These are the guys I've watched that I'm significantly interested in adding to the team, how many players at each position I'm interested in acquiring, and what round I would consider them...
QB (0/1): 4 Garrett Grayson CSU, UDFA Cody Fajardo NEV, UDFA Gary Nova Rutgers
RB (1): 4th Duke Johnson MIA, 5th Javorius Allen USC, 5th Josh Robinson Miss St, UDFA John Crockett NDSU
WR (2): 1a Amari Cooper ALA, 1a DeVante Parker LOU, 2 Nelson Agholor USC, 2 Rashad Greene FSU, 3 Justin Hardy ECU, 3 Josh Harper Fres, 4 Antwan Goodley BAY, 5 Austin Hill AZ, 5 Cam Worthy ECU, 6 Devante Davis UNLV, 6 Levi Norwood BAY, 7 Andre Davis USF, UDFA Evan Spencer OSU, UDFA Bud Sasser MIZZ, UDFA Anthony Johnson WTAM
TE (1): 2 Clive Walford MIA, 7 CJ Uzomah AUB, UDFA Casey Pierce KSU
OT (1): 1a Ereck Flowers MIA, 1b La'el Collins LSU, 2 Cam Erving FSU, 4 Mitch Morse MIZZ, 5 Donovan Smith PSU, 5 Rob Havenstein WIS, 7 Darrian Miller KY
OG (0/1): 1b Josue Matias FSU, 4 John Miller LOU, 4 Shaq Mason GT, 5 Tre Jackson FSU
C (1): 4 Andy Gallik BC, 4 Max Garcia FLA, 5 Dillon Day Miss St
DE (1): 1a Malcom Brown TEX, 1a Leonard Williams USC, 2 Xavier Cooper WSU, 4 Grady Jarrett CLEM, 6 Leterrius Walton CMU, UDFA Derrick Lott CHAT, UDFA Chuka Ndulue OK
NT (1): 1a Danny Shelton WAS, 2 Jordan Phillips OK, 4 Terry Williams ECU, 4 Carl Davis IOWA, 4 Joey Mbu HOU
OLB (1): 1a Randy Gregory NEB, 1b Dante Fowler Jr. FLA, 1b Owamagbe Odighizuwa UCLA, 3 Nate Orchard UTAH, 3 Markus Golden MIZZ, 3 Hauoli Kikaha WAS, 6 Jemauria Rasco LSU, 6 Zach Wagenmann MON, 6 J.R. Tavai USC, UDFA Marcus Rush MSU, UDFA Kyle Emanuel NDSU, UDFA Sonny Puletasi WYO
ILB (0/1): 1b Bernardrick McKinney Miss St, 2 Paul Dawson TCU, 3 Stephone Anthony CLEM, 4 Eric Kendricks UCLA, UDFA Jake Ryan MICH, UDFA Curtis Grant OSU
CB (1): 3 Ladarius Gunter MIA, 4 Ifo Ekpre-Olomu ORE, 5 Josh Shaw USC, UDFA DJ Celiscar WMU, UDFA Bernard Blake CSU, UDFA Jimmy Jean UAB, UDFA DreQuan Hoskey UVA, UDFA Jamerson Love Miss St
S (0/1): 4 Anthony Harris UVA, 6 Adrian Amos PSU, UDFA Nick Perry ALA
Overall Big Board (I'm pretty solid on where I have these guys, but I have plenty who I still need to watch more on that could fall in this list somewhere)
1a WR Amari Cooper ALA
1a WR DeVante Parker LOU
1a NT Danny Shelton WAS
1a OLB Randy Gregory NEB
1a DE Malcom Brown TEX
1a DE Leonard Williams USC
1a OT Ereck Flowers MIA
1b OG Josue Matias FSU
1b OLB Dante Fowler Jr. FLA
1b OT La'el Collins LSU
1b OLB Owamagbe Odighizuwa UCLA
1b ILB Bernardrick McKinney Miss St
2 TE Clive Walford MIA
2 WR Nelson Agholor USC
2 DE Xavier Cooper WSU
2 ILB Paul Dawson TCU
2 OT Cam Erving FSU
2 WR Rashad Greene FSU
2 NT Jordan Phillips OK
3 CB Ladarius Gunter MIA
3 WR Justin Hardy ECU
3 WR Josh Harper Fres
3 OLB Nate Orchard UTAH
3 ILB Stephone Anthony CLEM
3 OLB Markus Golden MIZZ
3 OLB Hauoli Kikaha WAS
4 C Andy Gallik BC
4 RB Duke Johnson MIA
4 NT Terry Williams ECU
4 NT Carl Davis IOWA
4 C Max Garcia FLA
4 DE Grady Jarrett CLEM
4 WR Antwan Goodley BAY
4 OG John Miller LOU
4 CB Ifo Ekpre-Olomu ORE
4 OT Mitch Morse MIZZ
4 S Anthony Harris UVA
4 OG Shaq Mason GT
4 QB Garrett Grayson CSU
4 NT Joey Mbu HOU
4 ILB Eric Kendricks UCLA
5 OT Donovan Smith PSU
5 WR Austin Hill AZ
5 WR Cam Worthy ECU
5 OC Dillon Day Miss St
5 RB Javorius Allen USC
5 RB Josh Robinson Miss St
5 CB Josh Shaw USC
5 OT Rob Havenstein WIS
5 OG Tre Jackson FSU
6 OLB Jemauria Rasco LSU
6 OLB Zach Wagenmann MON
6 DE Leterrius Walton CMU
6 FS Adrian Amos PSU
6 WR Devante Davis UNLV
6 WR Levi Norwood BAY
6 OLB J.R. Tavai USC
7 WR Andre Davis USF
7 TE CJ Uzomah AUB
7 OT Darrian Miller KY
UDFA CB DJ Celiscar WMU
UDFA RB John Crockett NDSU
UDFA QB Cody Fajardo NEV
UDFA CB Bernard Blake CSU
UDFA S Nick Perry ALA
UDFA CB Jimmy Jean UAB
UDFA CB DreQuan Hoskey UVA
UDFA OLB Marcus Rush MSU
UDFA WR Evan Spencer OSU
UDFA ILB Jake Ryan MICH
UDFA WR Bud Sasser MIZZ
UDFA DE Derrick Lott CHAT
UDFA ILB Curtis Grant OSU
UDFA CB Jamerson Love Miss St
UDFA WR Anthony Johnson WTAM
UDFA QB Gary Nova Rutgers
UDFA OLB Kyle Emanuel NDSU
UDFA TE Casey Pierce KSU
UDFA DE Chuka Ndulue OK
UDFA OLB Sonny Puletasi WYO
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 9,826 |
cleve - I have a a guy who I think could be a late round (5th/6th) diamond in the rough at Wr. DeAndre Smelter GT.
Interested in your take, He is hard to evaluate because they throw infrequently and when they did their QB was just bad (great runner, terrible passer).
He is a physical receiver both in his run blocking and in using his body to shield the defender. Seems to have pretty good hands. Unsure how fast he is. GT webpage has him at 6'3 222#
Am I perfect? No
Am I trying to be a better person?
Also no
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,583
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,583 |
Let me continue...  Amari Cooper  Amari Cooper and  Amari Cooper.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,682
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,682 |
That is pretty much a dream.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 12,065 |
I see no way Cooper makes it to 12. Either the Jets or Raiders HAVE to take him.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,583
Hall of Famer
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Hall of Famer
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 5,583 |
Yea, I am dreaming. NY or Oakland sure to nab him.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2015 NFL Season The NFL Draft 2015 With the 12th and 19th pick in the
2015 draft CLEVELAND selects...
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