DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Texas rally by Muslims seeking tolerance disrupted by protesters

media, politics, experience.

The media. The media spends 90% of it's time focusing on the loudest, most obnoxious, and most dangerous segments of every group whether it's by race, religion, nationality, etc...

I agreed with most of what you wrote 40, but my question is why would a Muslim have to go on television to denounce the acts of someone they've never met? Is it the responsibility of Christians to go on TV to denounce the Westboro Babtist church? Do I have to go on TV every time a black person is convicted of a crime and denounce them? No of course not. Let's not have different standards for different groups of people. Better yet why not treat people as individuals?

And let's hope more Catholics get on the news and denounce molesting children.

Because it's the Muslim community that people want to hear from when those things happen.


Yes, it absolutely is. Why do so many have a negative impression of Christians in the country, because of folks like the Westboro Baptist Church. Christians should be on TV every chance they get showing the differences and putting distance between themselves and people like that.


Do you? No. But it would help if your self-appointment spokesmen like Jesse and Al didn't run into every situation assuming the black person was wronged and it's the white person's fault (especially if it's a cop). I know you didn't elect Al or Jesse to champion your black causes but like it or not, they speak for you. Especially if you don't stand up and speak for yourself.


If somebody yells "I'm John Smith" then runs into a building with a bomb strapped to his chest, then treat him like an individual. If somebody yells "Allahu Akbar" and runs in with a bomb, he is a Muslim. If somebody yells "Jesus Saves" and blows up an abortion clinic, he's a Christian and everybody associated with the group will feel the repercussions and have to deal with the stain his actions leave on that group. I didn't make the rules. So you can either actively renounce what is done in the name of the race, religion, etc you belong too or bury your head in the sand and pretend that everybody else isn't making the association.

i've already outlined exactly why constantly denouncing something doesn't work.

example:

if your son does something stupid, and you denounce his actions, and he does something stupid again, and you denounce his actions, then the third time he does it AGAIN,

well everybody already knows what you're going to say. it's nothing but lip service at this point. you opening your mouth doesn't further any cause. your son clearly doesn't give a crap about your opinion. and everybody else doesn't either, because clearly what you have to say has no baring on whats going to continuously happen.

At that point it's ego stroking. Muslims already denounce a lot. what more do you want? American style turbins? Hijabs with the american flag logo?

you think ISIS is gonna stop because of that?

This isn't about stopping ISIS.. see that's the difference in your analogy. I have some control over what my son does and I can discipline him one on one to try to make a difference. If he does something 2 or 3 times, it reflects on my ability as a parent regardless of what I say about it.

I don't expect Muslims (at least the ones in this country) to be able to do anything to stop it.

Look, we Christians have our own PR problems but they are mostly nonviolent.
Muslims need good PR in my thinking, because their problems are extremely violent and there could be a backlash against them if people get scared and angry. They don't look like everybody else either. They stand out.

Again, in WWII German Americans had good PR and looked like everyone else, while the Japanese didn't look like everybody else and didn't think they needed PR.

Get together, spend some money and hire a good PR firm!
When the radicals start hitting the homeland, I fear the gloves are gonna come off and then it will be too late.

So you just admitted there's nothing they can do to stop it.

So what's the point of denouncing it? I'm only going off by what you wrote in response to the other posters.

That makes saying anything about it a waste of time.

No matter what I say, I can't stop thugs in Chicago shooting up the place, so what's the point of me sayin anything about black violence?

It's the same thing. All you're wanting is basically some warm and fuzzies.

To establish, build, strengthen relations between non-violent Muslims and the rest of the world.

This is a little dated but I doubt it has changed much.. Muslims and Westerners around the world don't think too highly of each other... remaining silent because you can't actually stop the fanatics isn't going to help that.

Pew Research

You clearly didn't read much that I posted in this thread.

I already explained how Muslims in Middle East don't like each other. It's a circle of hate.

I don't need a link to support the obvious.

So once again, they don't even like each other. There's zero point to denounce anything because it doesn't strengthen relations, at all.

Being part of the same religion doesn't do anything. If that was the case, then wth happened here in the US?

Just because non violent Muslims or non violent anything are the majority means what? Bills still gotta get paid. They are still from different countries.

Remember, Iranians aren't arabs. They're persians. Turks aren't arabs. They're European.

Leave the state bro. Buy a plane ticket and go meet some people.

I don't really believe that's the point he's trying to make Swish.

I think we both would agree that many people don't have good understanding of the Muslim world. While I certainly don't understand it as well as you do, I have looked into the matter and understand you are quite right that Muslim nations and religious factions that exist within the religion causes great division among Muslim nations. I also firmly understand the difference in European, Persian and Arabic nations.

I believe that knowledge isn't prevalent in our nation however. Is that the fault of Muslims? Certainly not. I do however believe the quickest, at least partial solution, would be for Muslims to speak out against radical Islam. It would send a clear message to those who do not understand Muslims, that there is a clear and distinct difference between radical Islam and most Muslims.

The only thing it would really be possibly accomplishing is to help by the general Muslim population and the average American to get along better. For there to be a better understanding that the vast majority of Muslims are not radicals or violent.

Is it due to the fact that most people simply don't care enough to learn about Muslims and buy into the propaganda of fear? Most definitely. And while that isn't in any way the responsibility of Muslims, this would be a simple step to help.

Nn

Pit, I agree with your assessment. I would add that much of what is put out there by the media is all the negative. I know several Muslims who are great peace loving folks, neighbors, friends and positive contributors to the community.

I am not convinced, however, that most Americans are going to put a great effort in to studying Islam or trying to become educated.

once again, how many times must muslims speak out against radicalism before it just becomes lip service?

once again, perfect analogy: why must i have to speak out against violent blacks every single time somebody does something stupid?

you educated yourself enough to realize that not every muslim is a terrorist.

so why do we excuse the rest of the population from doing the same?

I have to understand christians in this country. because christians expect that. yet when muslims ask the same, it's like pulling teeth.

Muslims in this country, for the most part, have merged themselves into american culture. They go to school, work, pay their bills, go to parties just like the rest of us.

for the 3rd time, a lot of muslim leaders, since 9/11 have condemned the actions of terrorist.

By now, you guys should've gotten the message already. If they still don't understand, it's not muslim people's fault. Amercians CHOOSE not to see that leaders speak out.

thats why I wonder what it is you guys really want from them. American style Hijabs? want them to start eating bacon?

it's like you guys don't realize the hypocrisy of some of y'all statements.

When muslims try to educate americans about how not all of them are like that, and muslims are peaceful...

Islamophobia happens. lets not even talk about that phase we went through. The media spent every single thing muslims said into making it seem like there was some grand conspiracy to take over the US.

so again, what do you want them to do? Because denouncing stuff hasn't worked. educating hasn't worked.

DC and others truly have no idea what they actually want. because non-muslims have done exactly that and it STILL isn't enough.

On a personal level I don't want them to do anything. I fully understand what is going on and that much of what you say is true. It's not an issue with me.

I just feel speaking out may help the perception, that's all.

I don't feel Christians need to speak out either, yet we're not nearly all the same and people speak about Christians as a group and not individuals either.

I'm Christian yet I believe the gay community has a right to marry. I believe in social programs and helping those who are impoverished. I believe that the laws of our nation and my religious views are entirely two separate things. I don't try to preach to others or force my belief system down anyone's throat.

Now if Christians were killing in the name of God I would be screaming out that is wrong and not my beliefs. I would want people to understand they do not support my beliefs. But that's just me.

I have no problem with what Obama said about how Christianity did much the same thing during the Inquisition and The Crusades because it's true. Religion has been twisted to do horrible things.

I do believe some of the Christian outrage over his statements are foolish and nothing more than denial. I believe those who commit violent acts at abortion clinics do not share the vast majority of Christian values. They are criminals.

I just believe it may help hostility if Muslims spoke out against radical Islam. It's not a mandate nor a requirement to me. As you can see, I have no problem speaking out as what I believe to be extremist Christian views.

I get that man.

Thats why i stopped my crusade against christianity on this board. it's mainly the pin head politicians that ruin it for everybody.

actual citizens normally don't give a damn at the end of the day, cause bills gotta get paid regardless.

Most Americans consider themselves Christians, and yet I bet that most of those would be hard pressed to name 10 books of the Bible. Most don't study the Bible, so why would anyone expect them to study any other religious materials?

It is the same for Muslims. Heck, they took massive offense to the Satanic Verses ..... and do you know who gave the Satanic Verses that name? Muhammad. These were verses that did not agree with certain other verses, so he claimed that he, while communicating this perfect text, that is "identical on earth as it is in heaven", must have been under the influence of the devil with regards to those verses.

These verses allowed for the worship of other "gods" in Mecca, because it was profitable for the people in charge therem and because Muhammad would never have got his foot in the door without making this allowance. Once Muhammad gained power, and converted the people, he took back that policy, saying, basically, that the devil made him do it.

[url=The Satanic Verses and their implications]More information[/url]

However, many Muslims do not know that this is in their holy book. It is fact, yet they find it offensive to the point that Islamic Mullahs and Imams put a death sentence on the writer, Salman Rushdie.

Most Muslims know what they are taught in the Mosque. Like Christians, I would bet that most Muslims never read their holy book all the way through, or know much more than a few commonly used, favorite verses. Hopefully their Mosques teach them a peaceful path.

Well, Time to go let my back recover somewhet.

Bro i got this guy, we can find you a new back, bro. just say the word.

Well, the Crusades get a massively bad name, as if it was Christianity going in and seizing traditionally Muslim lands in war.

Long version made very short:

The Middle East was, from the time of Jesus forward to about the start of the 7th century was split between Christian/Byzantine Roman rule, and Persian rule. The Romans were Christian by the time of the Persian Byzantine war, and the Persians worshiped a fire god.

The 2 sides went to war against one another, and basically came close to bankrupting each other in the process.

Muhammad saw the disarray that was created, and the weakened state in the region, and took advantage, seizing Persian and Christian/Byzantine areas. This continued for centuries, until the Crusades almost 400 years later. Then the church decided to go take back the areas that the Muslims had taken from them those 4 centuries or so earlier.

The Roman church and the Islamic empires went to war, and fought a continuing series of wars, with one side making advances, then the other pushing back. The Roman Empire seized Jerusalem, but has trouble holding it, Eventually, IIRC, they arrived at a treaty with the Islamic empire, handing control of Jerusalem back over the the Muslims.

Anyway, it wasn't that the Roman Empire just decided to go seize land. They went to try to take back land that was once part of their empire. They did so believing that they were rescuing Christians in those areas, and also that they should try to convert people to/back to Christianity, by the means used at that time, the sword.

It was considerably more complicated than many today make it seem, which is that the Christians just decided to go take land that did not belong to them. Much of the land involved had been fought over for centuries, and this was just like the "World War" of the era, which had been building for a very long time.

Short version ended.

Exactly. Thank you.

I pray for the day when something like that truly becomes possible. Obviously, not from a living person, but a spinal transplant, or some form of therapy that can have a better chance of long term success than what we have available today. I spoke to the head of neurosurgery at the University Hospitals, and he said that he pushes surgery back as far as he possibly can, unless there is a clear and significant problem showing. He said that he can have 2 patients, with identical films, and he will do the same surgery to both, and 1 will get complete help, and the other will have no change. For all we know about the human body, we know so little about the spine.

There is nothing so debilitating as having your back not work right, It affects your entire life, and everything you do. (or can no longer do)

Anyway, time to go rest while I can still walk that far.

No worries mate most American's are too lazy to do much more than burp and fart anyways ...

Still I don't like it. Muslims have just as much right to form a peaceful rally as anyone else in this country. If the Christians wanted to counter protest they should have been forced to keep their hands to themselves.

I guess you never heard of the Christian act of "laying of the hands."

j/c/

Just now seen on my fb feed:

"Blaming all Muslims for the terrorists is like blaming all musicians for Ted Nugent."


Not sayin'- just sharin'.....

LOL

only upon request and only to heal ^^

I've got no problem with good muslim people. They are just like good Christians, Jews, Hindus, Rastas, Atheist and everybody else, just trying to live happy lives. BUT I got a huge problem with extremist regardless of race/religion/etc. I'm not a stranger to violence, seen my share and been guilty myself a time or two... But I never once had the urge to chop off some strangers head in the name of my god. Not once.

So I understand the backlash towards the muslim community. Small minded scared people will always fear and attack what the don't understand or find so different that they can't accept. That said, I would probably nuke ISIS.

Thats a good one. Ted rules.

The fallout from Nuking Iran will get ISIS.

Pro-Life!

Pro America and her allies

Speak out against it every time it happens.


Clearly the rest of the population does not believe that every Muslim is a terrorist, if they did, violence against Muslims would be significantly higher. There is a big gap between believing they are all terrorists and just generally distrusting them as a group. They can either continue to try to educate or blame other people for not understanding... which one do you think has the greater chance of advancing their cause?


And it is my sincere hope that someday you will.


Good. Mission Accomplished, from here on out, blame the people who don't understand. Good plan.


Do you know what would happen if there was a Westboro Baptist Church article posted on this board and not a single one of the more outspoken Christians showed up to comment on it and distance Christianity from those morons? Do you know how long it would take before the secular members of this board started to call out the Christians for not saying anything about it? It would take about 10 posts. I've seen it before brother, it doesn't take long before silence is viewed as indifference or even acceptance. It happens all the time, each time a democrat is caught with his hand in the cookie jar or a republican is caught with his pants around his ankles, those who belong to those groups are expected to say something about it... or they are viewed as accepting it, excusing it, denying it.

So you can live in your little fantasy world where you say something once and then you should never have to repeat it, but that's not the real world.


Continued reassurance of which side of the fight they are on. Every time somebody, in the name of their faith, burns a hostage in a cage, or beheads a hostage and puts out a video. Every time. Every time. I want their leadership out in front distancing themselves from that act, from those groups. Every time.


Nor do you. How many times must the cops explain that they have nothing against inner city black kids and just want to keep the peace before you believe them?


So does theophobia, homophobia, and policophobia.. maybe we should all just shut up though and blame the people with the phobia for being ignorant and not understanding.... because we know most religious people, gay people, and police officers aren't really that bad.


What is this based on? Are you saying this because it hasn't been 100% effective and there are still some with doubts and fears? Did the denouncing and educating not cause Pit to do his own research? How many more Pits are there out there who have reached a level of understanding due to the educating and the assurance that they do not condone terrorism?

Three Muslim students in Chapel Hill were shot, executed, in cold blood by an older white man. I do not know if they fully understand his motive yet but it's not hard to guess what they are speculating... The night before last, they held a vigil on campus, thousands of people showed up, the majority where white, many were Christian... they showed up to show solidarity with their fellow students, who by all accounts, were very fine young people. Tonight there is a similar vigil at NC State, where I'm sure the scene will be repeated. By your logic, these students didn't have to show up because most of them at one point or another said, "I don't have a problem with Muslims"... so there is no need to reinforce that by going to this vigil, but they went anyway. What do you think that meant to the parents of those kids who have every right to distrust and hate the likes of the man who shot their kids?

So Muslims can dig their heels in and take the "If you don't get it by now you never will" approach... but it would be a huge mistake. Because there are still Islamophobes out there who distrust them enough to want to kill them, even the innocent ones... and there are thousands more who want to embrace them and show compassion for them... and both sides need to hear constant denouncing and constant messages of education.


Fortunately me and others like me have you to tell us what's wrong with us and how misguided we are. As I said, as long as people somewhere in the world are burning hostages in cages and beheading innocent people and posting the video on the internet, Muslims better be equally aggressive in getting out a message of peace and denouncing those acts.. if they don't, they will lose the PR battle, and it won't be my fault, because I warned them once.

Welp, time to issue another challenge.

you just don't get it.

So guess what DC.

for 3 months straight, every time some white person does something stupid, you need to hold a press conference and denounce that person and say they do not represent us.

every.

single.

time.

I'll send my paypal information to you right now, and at the 3 month mark, i'll give you 500 dollars.

but remember. no matter what time of the day it is. no matter if you're at your job, or having a romantic dinner with your wife. you need to drop all of it, hold a press conference, i dunno YouTube it or something, and denounce the actions of whites doing something stupid.

I'll be posting to help you out too, so get ready for a string of PM's coming your way, if you accept.

Oh, okay, I think I understand your point. You're just suggesting they do something to improve their image. Ok got ya. Not a bad idea when you put it that way. Also I agree with you on WWII. It's easy to put people who look different in internment camps. That would have never happened to German Americans. Heck, German POW's were treated better than Black soldiers at the time. Unreal.

But I would say, Christians are out in the world committing atrocities, this is fact. I won't go as far as to say more or less, but it is happening. Just cause we don't see it on the news, doesn't mean it's not. But if you don't believe me. . . .

Perhaps I should have you repeat it 3 times before I finally listen.

I show you respect and this is how you respond? Same old 40. .

No, even older 40.

I'm confused.

What do want to help with?

understatement of the Year!

No, I get it just fine. Not sure if you are taking me out of context intentionally or just too literally. I do not have a pulpit from which to call a press conference that anybody would attend, not a lot of people care what I have to say. I have no authority to speak on behalf of the masses of white people. And I don't expect the Muslims that live across the street from me to run over and apologize or explain every time a Muslim does something stupid.

I'm also not talking about just "doing something stupid".. a Muslim could get drunk and drive into a crowded shopping mall tomorrow.. that's stupid, but it has nothing to do with them being Muslim. I'm talking about when they do something in the name of being a Muslim, that's when the Muslim community needs to respond.

What I do expect is for those who do have the authority and the pulpit, to use it. The directors of CAIR, the leaders of the larger mosques, the leaders of Muslim nations.. those are the people that the news media will listen to. Those are the people I expect to hear from when Muslims do globally stupid things in the name of THEIR religion.

As for me, I will denounce stupid white people in here, I will denounce stupid Christians, I will denounce old bald guys, I will denounce stupid Republicans...

I'm not asking anybody to go outside of their sphere of influence, but some people have a much bigger sphere of influence than others. We can't have 1.5 billion press conferences with each Muslim speaking out every time a Muslim does something stupid.. and you know I never meant anything like that.

Believe it or not, when race issues happen, I value your opinion and that of other black board participants... not because I think you speak for all black people or because you owe me some kind of explanation or apology, but because I view your opinion in higher regard than that of say.. Jesse or Al.. because you aren't profiting from your opinion, you aren't out grabbing spotlights and trying to stir crap up, you are just giving your man-on-the-street opinion of a race related issue.. so when blacks do something I view as stupid, like looting their own hometown stores and burning them to the ground, I wonder if the average black man thinks that's stupid too, or do they defend it, do they support it.

And I expect no more than that from the average Muslim...