DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Pediatrician refuses to treat baby with lesbian parents and there’s nothing illegal about it

You should always love your family no matter what. I still love my child when I don't accept her bad behavior and correct her to make her grow up a good citizen and disciple of God..

I am a man with a brain. My penis will never be in control of who I am or what I do. The truth is a person's genitals will respond to attention period. The most devastating part of being raped whether a woman or a man is having an orgasm from it. The guilt and shame is horrible.

I can promise you that gay, lesbian, or straight if friction is applied in the right spot your body takes over whether you want it to or not. that doesn't make you a bad person. It's when you choose an action that is sinful even when you know it is that you're destroying yourself. What you do with your genitals is 100% a choice unless you're being raped. It's also been proven that people have a natural tendency to be attracted to sinful acts. Knowing that you're doing something you shouldn't be doing adds to the thrill of it. It can be more of an attraction than the physical act for some. that doesn't make it who they are but what they have to struggle to fight against.

Everyone has a sin they are weak against. They are all sin. Which is why we should love our fellow man even if he has fallen because he can always find the strength through God to overcome his adversity if he makes a sincere effort. I have no pity for someone saying its too hard so I wont try anymore. For someone who is trying even if they fail 100 times I can have great respect for because they are trying even if they are failing.

This idea that you are what you are and there is nothing you can do about it is total BS. That's just a sinner making sorry excuses for themselves so they don't have to keep trying to live their life the way God told them too.

I am not better than anyone on this forum and I am not stuck up in that regard. I just take the Bible for what it says as the truth and TRY to live accordingly. I don't always succeed in living my life free from sin and I am FAR from perfect but ... I'm still trying.

I have only read a few posts on this thread because it sickens me, but is this the general idea................you guys think that religious people are despicable and homosexual couples are heroes?

Hi Vers

You apparently didn't read my post, because I didn't say anything of the sort. Not even close.

I think your general perception might be the result of an over-distillation of the subject at hand. There have been many subtleties and nuances in this discussion, and pretty much none of them were expressed in as heavy-handed a fashion as you've characterized.

So, I'll just ask you outright to please go back to my post, read it, and tell me what you think about what I wrote. I'd be interested to hear your take on it... or even your thoughts in general about the thread's topic- NOT the posters' opinions that sicken you. I think that contribution would be appreciated by all/most of us, whether we agree with your take or not.

Thanks in advance,
Clem

I will read your post later, Clem. I am sure that your take was a good one. You almost always have a good take.

I just skim read this thread because I knew what it would be about. Defend the gays, hate the religious, blah, blah, blah.

I am not religious at all. I have actually had a little bit of disdain for those who hid behind religion, but man, just as they were wrong.........so is the polar opinion.

Odd that you might leave out those that have a relationship with God, and are gay.

It's funny, I usually end up on the conservative side of some opinions and once in a while on the liberal side. I will never allow who I am to dictate who I vote for. I choose who is best for this country, not who is best for me personally. I didn't vote for Obama, and never voted for Bush. So, if anyone wants a candidate to win, just pay me to vote against your candidate.

A homosexual has no relationship with God except rebellion and sin if they are practicing homosexual acts. The Bible is rock solid and clear on homosexuality. God views it as an abomination on the same level as having sex with animals.

You can't say you have a relationship with God while committing acts God finds to be an abomination. Well you can say it, but it won't be true.

Correct. Your conversation with the invisible person is more valuable and has more authenticity than the other guys'/gals' conversation with the invisible person.

...according to YOUR version of Biblical teachings, as was handed down to you by other (self-professed) fallible chunks of 98.6.

Please trust me in this, Razorthorns... I don't pose this question to you as a political/philosophical adversary.

Since we've only just recently entered into communication together, I realize that you don't really know me... so you might not understand my motivations for challenging you in this thread.

I invite you: PM/Poll any long-time posters here, and ask them what they think of Clemdwg as an EE poster BEFORE you respond to this post. After you do, I'd ask that you'd seriously consider your response to me, poster-to-poster... straight-up, as I'm sure of the responses you'll get about my reputation here.

My own self-assessment: I don't lie in these threads. I don't spout a party line. I don't pull punches. Other opinions may vary, and I'll talk with honesty and openness about such important issues.. which is why I implore you to ask others, rather than take my own bona-fides as gospel. Ask them. They'll tell you- I drop the uncut 411 in any/every post I make.

____________



YOUR interpretation of this is rock solid. This forces me to ask you a question:

If God saw fit to allow the creation of examples of mankind who were 'born in His own image'... purely 15 % of His own population, both human and sub-human ... who were genetically predisposed to be attracted to members of their own gender, why would He then condemn those very same people to eternal damnation, by virtue of His all -encompassing edicts?

This makes no sense to me- as a born-again Child of Christ, or at least, a student of Biblical teaching.

My empirical mind simply cannot make sense of this.... and I was born into (and accepted) God's world when I was 12 years old.

____________

I truly believe that God has spoken upon my heart... and He has relieved me of all such Earth-bound encumbrances. He has told me that He still loves my cousins, and wants them to live as righteous examples of how His children should live, by their daily deeds.

Am I to believe that God spoke to you with more truth than he did to me?

Am I to believe that the revelations I've received are somehow less "authentic" than the ones that prompt you to say the things you share with this community?

Am I to trust what YOU say, above what God Himself has expressed to me, upon my heart?

Thank you very much, but I'll take Him at his word. He loves me and My Cousins in ways that are deeper and more profound than you will ever know from reading a book that was written by human beings more than 2,000 years ago.

My God is a Living God.

My God lives within me... and speaks to me on a daily basis. He directs my every move- and he He tells me to not listen to 'believers' such as you.

How might you respond to Him, in such a way that might resonate with Christians like me?


He has owned my life for over 40 years, and I've yet to understand how your way of thinking is any more God-like than mine.

The ball's in your court.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Clem I love many of your posts so of course I take no offense. Please go back and read over many of my posts.

I have never once advocated hating anyone. EVER. I simply quote what the scripture says. I always shoot straight with no intention to harm but also with the truth whether people like it or not. I don't care what churches say because most of them that I visit don't use the scripture as their standard. They use their feelings or what everyone else tells them should be right even when the Bible flat out says they are wrong.

I am the kind of person that if you tell me your sin I will tell you its wrong to your face. I will tell you all of one time. I tell you only so God won't judge me for leaving you in ignorance of the law. After that you're on your own unless you ask me again about it. I will say what the Bible says to the best of my ability. I won't say what everyone wants to hear which is that its OK because that would be a lie and a sin on me then. No one is ever going to use the excuse that Razorthorns lied to them as a justification for their actions. people may not like what I say or how I say it but they will never accuse me of lying because of the truth being unpleasant. I try to be tactful when I can but sometimes there is just no way around it. I do the best according to my limited ability.

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What does the Bible say about people who know something is a sin and is wicked in the eyes of the lord but keep doing it without remorse anyways.

"but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

Again, the Bible is VERY clear. If you purposely choose to live in sin even though you know God has said not to do it does not have a relationship with God. Period. That is ANY sin. Not just homosexuality.

Clem you worry about how we were created. God created mankind perfect but then we messed up and chose to be disobedient and it corrupted our earthly bodies forever. That's on us and not on him.

Because we are born into sin our bodies are corrupted from what he originally intended. To each of us we have our own sins that tempt us. Sin is sin. We might view one as greater than the other but he treats one sin the same as the other because all sin is a form of disobedience to God. We have to take up that cross and then give it to Jesus because we can't bear it up to calvary ourselves. We need Jesus to take the sin from us so we can change our behavior from disobedience to obedience.

Homosexuals have to deal with the sin of their lust. Another man might have to deal with the sin of gluttony. While someone else might have to fight off his urge to murder people. Some else might have to fight off the urges to lie. We all have our cross to bear. there are no excuses and we know what the Biblical law is.

God may love all of us and he has given us ALL a chance to be with him in heaven. A chance not a right. We didn't earn the right to go to heaven. We are not entitled to it. We have this very short life to obey his will, do what he has commanded, and accept salvation.

It's not God's fault if people don't accept him or obey him. He gave us a free will to choose how we behave and if we will obey. It's completely up to us. Some people will choose a life of sin. Some will choose a life of obeying God's laws and will.

Read over Matthew chapter 7 again. Jesus is talking very clearly about this same issue. I'll quote a little from it but feel free to go read the entire context.

“Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened."

--- God does not deny anyone who obeys him.

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."

--- The easy life bowing to what is convenient leads to hell. The hard life of following God's will is the only way to heaven.

“Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

--- Preachers who do not preach what the Bible says as truth are false prophets. Our soul is a tree. If it is with God it will bear good fruit. If it is not then it will be thrown into the fire. Jesus is VERY clear about this.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

--- Not everyone who believes in God will go to heaven. It is the people who OBEY him and submits freely their will to his. You can not earn your way into heaven. You have to OBEY HIS WILL and not your own. Too many people say they are a Christian but when it comes time to OBEY God they only follow what is convenient for them. Those that do so will not make it to heaven. Jesus is VERY clear on that matter.

"Then Jesus said, "Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear."

You are very close minded and I'm done discussing with you.

When did you decide you weren't going to be gay?

Why would someone decide to be gay when they know they'll face discrimination and worse?

Do you really think they do it for attention?

I kind of have already gotten that message from you, so lets talk about how much the Bible should be used to determine discrimination.

Razor, you are off base. When a five year old knows he is different, believe me, they are not making excuses. Your argument is absurd.

Yes. Teens do all kind of negative things to get attention. thats a proven fact. The point is their preference doesn't even matter. God said, don't do it and no means no. You don't listen to your parents you're gonna suffer the consequences. The bible is very clear. If you perform homosexual acts you're going to hell. End of discussion.

I have no problem with someone saying they don't care about God and would rather go to hell. I have a problem with someone calling themselves a christian when they live every day doing something God hates for them to do.

I decided not to be gay the same time I decided not to whore around with women. You're not any better being a slut whether its homo or hetero. I certainly faced enough temptation that I had to resist.

The Bible also gives strict directions that if a sinner won't repent and change their ways to cast them out before their sin corrupts the church. The more of sin you see the more normal it becomes until you start to doubt the scriptures. Then you start to want to sin more yourself because we are all weak against one temptation or another.

The bible says to love your neighbor as yourself. If you have a problem ask a friend in the church. If that doesn't resolve the issue then bring it before the pastor. If that still doesn't work then you bring it before all of the church. If they still don't repent and change their ways then you excommunicate them.

People are given a chance to resolve the issue. Its up to them to change their behavior. Sex is a behavior and something you do. It is NOT who you ARE. If you're not attracted to what you're supposed to then don't have sex. Love whoever you want to but keep your pants
ON. That is the Law that God demands.

If you're not a person who submits to the will of God then do whatever you want because you're not going to heaven anyways. Your sins will bring their own suffering to your life. God won't need to punish you on earth. If you have never felt God's presence in your life you're never going to have reason to want to obey him until he chooses to move in your life anyways.

Me personally? Outside of a church which is a temple of God and a Holy place to be kept sanctified and pure I don't think you should discriminate at all. A church is the one exception and that is because God doesn't want UNREPENTANT sinners in his place of worship.

Evangelizing should be done outside of the church by its members reaching out into the community. You go to church to have fellowship with other christians and to have rest away from temptation so that your soul can find peace. Keep things that cause disobedience to God outside of the church for it is a Holy place to be protected and kept pure.

Come to church, hear God's word, change your ways, or get out. It's not your public social club.

This statement got pretty close and I've had enough discussions with you to assume you aren't as prejudiced in actions as your religious beliefs and statements may indicate, but do you agree with the legal definition of discrimination when it comes to gays or should the legality be based on what the Bible tells you?

The reason I ask is because medical science HAS found enough genetic links to sexual orientation to account for homosexuality that goes beyond the temperamental teenage years through complete adulthood. Well into the years when adults have committed themselves to avoiding homosexual desires and engaging in non-homosexual behaviors.

Again many of these people are absolutely committed to the gospel and condemn themselves for their desires. Why would they CHOOSE to be gay?

From what I understand, you believe that homosexual behaviors should be avoided due to the loss of entry to heaven, but are you able to practice your beliefs yet accept the legality of the rights of gays?

Do you believe gay discrimination laws should be based on medical science or gospel?

Oh Razor, how naive you really are. There is no courage in this. Bruce Jenner deciding after 65 years that he wants to parade around in lipstick and skirts, now that takes REAL courage. (just read the cover of any tabloid) Making a decision that you believe is in keeping with any kind of religious belief isn't courage, it's bigotry.

As a Christian it is my duty to fight for laws that DON'T encourage sin. My priority is protecting a person's soul not their convenience. Not enabling them to have even more excuses to sin.

I don't think anyone should have rights based on their sexual behavior. I don't think being married should give you any special benefit other than a blessing from God. It should not be the governments job to determine what benefits you get based on your sex life. Period.

While I don't agree with the lady doctor turning away a patient I also believe she has every right to do so. Doctor's pick and choose who their patients are all the time.

Flat tax and universal health care and 90% of what people are upset about concerning gays is solved IMHO. That other 10% will never change anyways.

It also says to love your neighbor, and to not judge, lest you be judged also.

It is our job to love one another, and their transgressions are between them and God. I am far from perfect, and a sinner daily by the word of the bible, but that is between God and I, and I will face my judgement when I come before him.

Now, does that mean I never make preconceived judgments on people? Hold prejudices? Have hatred in my heart? No, but those are my sins to atone for and face when my time comes. But I try hard to hold to the ideal that it is my job, while on this earth, to spread the love and word of God, through my words and actions, whether it is with whites, blacks, asians, hispanics, illegal aliens, space aliens, heterosexuals, homosexuals, religious, athiests, agnostics, etc, etc.

I often fail to live up to that standard, and I am often asking for the Lord's forgiveness for doing so when I become aware of my failure. Then I try to learn from it, and with each failure, the learning helps make it easier for the right reaction to become the natural reaction.

But in the end, it is not my position to pass judgment and punishment, that is for the Lord my God to handle in the way he sees fit. I I believe God created everyone the way they are for a reason. Who am I to second guess his intentions?

Well Razor I disagree, but I appreciate the calm discussion we've had.

Now I Know Razor is Right!

Thank you! I am happy to have respectful disagreements because its not possible for everyone to agree on everything. I find that most on this forum treat each other in a respectful way and that is why I enjoy having intelligent conversation. =)

This doctor forgot the oath.

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures which are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

That kid's treatment has nothing to do with his parents or their 'sins'. If the doctor was so religiously conflicted, she should have directed the parents to a doctor that didn't have those conflicts. As a doctor, you're supposed to treat anyone, no matter their religion, creed, preference, color, etc.

Damn fine post.
Thank you.

That kid's treatment has nothing to do with his parents or their 'sins'. If the doctor was so religiously conflicted, she should have directed the parents to a doctor that didn't have those conflicts. As a doctor, you're supposed to treat anyone, no matter their religion, creed, preference, color, etc.

Funny because your suggestion is exactly what she did. She had another doctor take care of them. The child was not neglected.

Also, its a family practice not an emergency room. Thousands of doctors refuse patients all over the nation all the time.

She accepted the patient, then she redirected that patient somewhere else. That is what strikes me as odd. Is she so conflicted in her beliefs that she had to pray for a day to make a decision? She should have redirected that kid to another doctor immediately.

Is there a lawsuit involved in this issue? If so, I don't think there should be one. Yes, she redirected the kid to another doctor. The kid was treated. I still believe that anyone should be able to refuse service for any reason. I also think this woman should reconsider her oath, as that oath calls to treat anyone that needs her help. This is just a case of bad judgment of this doctor from the beginning.

I wonder how many people on this board would flip out if they had a life saving operation done, and found out it was a gay doctor that saved your life,

Or you got into a car wreck, and it was a gay couple or person that pulled you out car.

Or a gay person that helped you not get robbed at night.

Because that happens a lot.

Seems like sexual orientation is only a problem if you guys know about it. They shouldn't have to hide who they are. Yes, sometimes they get carried away with the whole gay and proud thing, but when you're the next group to get oppressed by some bible nuts, I see why they do it.

That's exactly what she did.


I agree with that, but especially in case of emergency. If there is no emergency and you have the ability to transfer the patient to somebody else, shouldn't you be allowed to do that?

What if you were a gynecologist and your kids 4th grade teacher came in? Or your female pastor? Or your wifes best friend? and you were just too uncomfortable to "go there" with that person... should you not have some discretion in transferring that patient to somebody else if it's not an emergency? I'm not saying those are exactly equal to what happened here but are you saying that under no circumstances should a doctor pass off a patient to another doctor because they just aren't comfortable with it?

I'm glad that there are not crazy Christians on this forum as well

I could see the patient having issues, but to a gynecologist, looking at a vagina is as ho-hum as looking at a throat.

As far as the doctor in question, I would say they should face some sort of disciplinary board, as this is absurd.

As always, you're free to believe insane nonsense, but you aren't free to force it onto others to their detriment.

And it's worth pointing out - there's one more example for kids to look at and say 'wow, what a terrible way to act'.

If Christians were smart, they'd abandon the gay fight, because its a losing one with awful PR.

And let's not pretend that one is compelled to. The entire faith is cherrypicked to begin with.

Proof? Link? Where you ever a Gynecologist? Perhaps you stayed at a Holiday Inn?

You would like me to link proof to an off-the-cuff opinion?

Agreed. That's true for any doctor - or any nurse - that's worth their salt. I have a few doctor friends, and many nurse friends. It's their job. 1 nurse in particular is the head nurse in the heart cath dept. She sees nude men every day. Shave them, stick the cath in, do your job, then turn around and do it again. (for the caths going in the groin).

Another friend is a nurse that does colonoscopies all day. One butt looks just like another.

I have no doubt, if or when I need either of these done - they would do their job. I (capitalized I), would be the one with the problem/issue.


[/quote]

And there's this that's been going around the nets.

"Religion is like a penis. It's fine to have one and it's fine to be proud of it, but please don't whip it out in public and start waving it around... and PLEASE don't try to shove it down my child's throat."

Only those so called christians who cherry pick would ever give up fighting a sinful lifestyle. I mean because it is sooo unamerican to stand up and fight for your beliefs ...

Wow your argument is to show off being a pedophile? How does one even think of such disgusting things ... please treat your liberal agenda to turn people into craven sex objects to yourself instead ...

I'm not siding with doctor who denied treatment to the child by any means, but on a related note, during my time in medical sales it was not uncommon for surgeons to refuse to perform elective surgery on a Jehovah's Witness. This was due to their belief that they will not accept blood transfusions. It was a liability and/or extra stress several surgeons did not want to contend with and would therefore refer the patient to another surgeon.

It is if your a Christian

Are you equating stating Christian beliefs with gays wanting rights? Almost everyday I see or hear Christian beliefs expressed without concern.

Just one good example was the prayer broadcast before the Daytona race. I sincerely doubt the network was bombarded with complaints.

Going to a baseball game involves singing "God bless America" during the 7th inning stretch and I have never heard, "BOO!!" during that.

The local and national news will often express certain stories as evidence of miracles.

There's a difference between arguing with people on a message board and actual fighting for civil rights and using these discussions as proof that Christians are repressed is another form of, "Their not victims!! I'm the victim!!!".