DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Gov. Mike Pence signs 'religious freedom' bill in private

No, we're talking about slavery.

No, we're talking about slavery.

No, I think slavery is wrong. Here, there, or anywhere. You don't? You think you need to live somewhere to have an opinion?

So, you forget that there wasn't "indentured servitude" in Africa? You forget that the 'haves' in Africa raided tribes, killing those that ran, capturing those they could, and selling them to the highest bidder? You don't realize it still goes on?
Interesting. But it's only the white Christians that were bad slave owners?

But the black slave owners were only doing justice to/for their slaves, right? Just teaching them a skill or trade, right? Basically, just looking out for them by enslaving them. Got it.

Interesting. But, why does islam get a pass for having slaves, then, and now? If slavery in the u.s. was a "Christian" thing, why not give credit to Christians for ending it?

Why is it just the u.s. Christians that get blamed?



Got it. Good point.

Can you change yesterday? I can't. Can you change 100 years ago? I can't. My understanding is Indiana is looking to change the law they just enacted......how so, I don't know.

Christianity is not a bad thing when looked at at it's core. Bad Christians are no different than bad "X" religion people.

You are no waste of time, you are always welcomed at the table.

because once again, we are NOT talking about slavery in other countries. we are talking about HERE. and there weren't any muslims during that time in america, so you bringing that up is irrelevant.

Slavery is bad. no matter what religion or race is doing it. however, in relevance to the topic, the state of Indiana isn't in the middle east, or Africa, or Asia.

it's in the US.

you're absolutely right. Christianity at it's base is perfect fine with me. as in all religions.

however, you and I both know we aren't dealing with it at its base; we are dealing with people, who over the course of generations has used the religion to justify and manipulate the bible to practice such timely traditions as, slavery, witch trials, taxing the population as they were also deemed the government( middle ages), segregation, women's rights, suppressing scientific progress, and now homosexuals.

So yes, Christianity by itself is fine. but the mofo's running the show combined with christianity isn't.

Thank you. We aren't talking about slavery in other countries, nor are we talking about slavery here in the u.s. We're talking about religious freedom here (or there, in Indiana - that passed and apparently is going to change the law they just passed)

Weird how slavery ever got involved in the discussion, isn't it?


Yup. And slavery isn't involved in the topic at hand. Is it. But it somehow became a topic because of ............?


Oh, don't even get me started on taxes. Got the news from the cpa yesterday. I owe, I owe.....

Hey, is the u.s. still active in slavery? Or witch trials? Where in the hell you get that Christians came up with taxes I don't know...

Segregation - was it Christians that championed that? Or maybe race issues?

Women's rights.....was it Christianity that opposed that? Or just a thing of the times back then?

Scientific progress - is it Christians that deny?

Now, take those questions I asked, and replace "Christian" with "muslim". Wow?

But, at least in this thread, we have politics, religion, and slavery involved.

Swish, I extend to you an invitation to spend a weekend with me. You have my number - I'd only ask you give me a few weeks notice as I do work many/most Saturdays. I/we have a spare bedroom for you. Or you and your wife. Your kids could sleep in my daughter's room and my daughter would sleep somewhere else.

I think, spending a weekend together would be a good thing.

Slavery was simply an example of what christians used to justify those events with there religion.

you asked why slavery? and i explained it to you how they justified it. nothing more.

it was an historic example, that absolutely applies now, because the same thing(not slavery, but the justification to discriminate and make laws against because "religion") is happening now to gays.

once again, we aren't a muslim nation. I don't know why you keep feeling the need to "insert muslim" into this as muslims aren't the ones who passed this law, or ANY law here in the US.

Right now you're trying more or less to use the "but everybody else does it" concept, and it's not working.

Just my opinion, but I don't see how it's such a horrible thing if a gay person pays for services in your establishment. How is that ruining YOUR religion? Is it that horrible if someone comes in, pays money for your services, and walks out? Is that really infringing on your religious freedom?

I've always said I don't care what your thoughts are on LGBT or any other minorities. You can be Chik Fil A and possibly have thoughts where you disagree with it. There's nothing wrong with it. But for me, when Chik Fil A or anyone else decides that they won't hire or serve someone in a minority, that's where they have crossed the line.

Whatever happened to all men being created equal?

For the record, if you want to have a church and deny gay people or any other minority, that's fine. Chances are, your church sucks, and at least everyone will know how horrible of people you are. For everyday services like cakes and flowers, that's just unacceptable. You really aren't any better than those idiots from Kansas who protest funerals.

I love that the commiesionner of the MAC said no big events are going to be held there in the future. I hope others jump on.

My beef is it's always gays. just one sin.

people don't follow the 10 commandments on a daily basis, and there are literally hundreds of other sins.

but you can come up in their business. no problem.

just can't be gay, though.

This sounds more like a misguided man who crafted a weak argument than it does me being unable to comprehend truth

+1

Even if you make a cake for a gay wedding, you aren't part of the wedding. Heck, have someone else deliver it if you don't want to even see it. I really don't see the problem.

As I said before, if a gay couple asks to create a penis shaped cake, a KKK member asks for a hood shaped cake with a hanged black man on it, or a "Jesus is stupid" cake....feel free to deny the service, but if it's a normal cake that your bakery would make for anyone else, how does that infringe on your religion? So you write "Blake and Ben" instead of "Blake and Wendy", it's just icing. And again, you aren't part of the ceremony. You can still condemn them internally as they hand you the money.

Plus, Indiana is adding a special rider to the bill so that gays are excluded from the bill anyway.

As to your last sentence: "Right now you're trying more or less to use the "but everybody else does it" concept, and it's not working."


No, I'm not. I'm simply pointing out your fallacy of "white Christians" invented slavery. Slavery was around long, long before Columbus discovered Cuba.

Slavery was around long before Plymouth Rock.

Slavery still exists in many countries - one being Africa.

Slavery was wrong, and is wrong. To blame white Christians for it is foolish - although it happened. The biggest issue is - white Christians ......hell no......PEOPLE have decided it was wrong. Don't blame me.

It's not efficient. It takes a long time for change to occur within the free market.

Wrong, as is typical.

Free market is already in the process of changing Indiana's law. Free market already ran a business out of business in Indiana - some pizza place. (although I will admit: how did a couple days of no or slow business close them?)

Wrong as usual. We've been more or less a "Free market" since the inception of this country yet it took us a few centuries to get rid of slavery. I think that's really the only case that needs to be made here. If you're still stubborn enough to argue this then we can go on to modern examples.

People pick and choose what parts of the bible they want to take literally.

[quote]Even Jesus is on record advocating slavery./quote]

I've been listening to the Gospels and the book of Acts repeatedly since just after Thanksgiving.

You're gonna have to post chapter and verse, cause I ain't heard anything like that at all.

First off, God doesn't play favorites and those people (I say that because I'm not going to feel guilty or pay a penalty for something someone did several decades ago) couldn't do what they did.

If there were prophets operating in America during the time of slavery (perhaps there were, but they were called ABOLITIONISTS!) they would've been denouncing slavery and warning of judgement to come (JUST LIKE THE ABOLITIONISTS DID!).

God doesn't move on our timeline, shoot he even left the Israelites in slavery for 400 years, but then judged the Egyptians when he set them free.

I would say God was being patient hoping that slave owners would've actually read his word and saw what he was really saying rather than twisting it to make excuse for what they were doing.

Obviously, slave owners didn't get with the program and our nation was judged by the Civil War.

But what about gays? The Bible says that homosexuality is an abomination. Sorry you don't like that. But that's what it says.

The things racists did to oppress are not supported by the Bible.

Not affirming what the Bible calls a sinful lifestyle is.

What about other sins? Trouble is, how would one know? Is the person entering a place of business asking for something specifically affirming their sin?

There are hundreds of bakers, photographers and other such people who would be happy to serve you regardless of whatever, I find it very disingenuous when a gay couple brings a lawsuit against a business owner just because they didn't want to work with them. People are losing everything they've ever worked for just because you got your feelings hurt? Unacceptable.

Also, after decades of 'you can't legislate morality' when it comes to ripping a baby's brain out the back of it's skull, you all want to get 'moral'?

Two faced.

Ted...

Life is two-faced. We are all hypocrites.

But if Jesus owned a burger stand, he would serve gays burgers.

I'm a Christian. And when I read your ramblings I'm often ashamed at how you twist Christianity. At least from my understanding.

Ephesians 6:5 says: "Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ." While this was not Jesus, it was the opinion given by Him and others. Jesus never spoke out against slavery during His earthly ministry.

More information here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/sla_bibl2.htm

Now, slavery was very often a very different thing in those days, with much being of an indentured nature. Further, indentured slaves would be set free every 7 years (IIRC) under Jewish law.

Jesus would serve them, and he would preach to them.

However, if He were asked to officiate their wedding, He would refuse. Jesus would not do anything that encouraged another to sin He said to the adulterous woman He saved from stoning, "Go, and sin no more." He did not say "Go, your life is saved, so you can go back to living out of wedlock with the man you were living with."

Jesus never, not once, excused sin. He forgave sin, and He took the sins of the world onto Himself when He died on the cross, but He never excused sin. or did anything that could be seen as approving of it.

so according to you, those people in Indiana and other places are above jesus.

got it.

Ah, the 'who's rights are more important' debate is still gong on.

Could someone in Indiana please go into a Jewish or Muslim food establishment and demand a cooked ham? I just love the hypocrites coming out saying that certain people don't have rights, but these people have rights.

I personally like what Tammy Bruce said on Fox this morning, and I'm not quoting but paraphrasing. Oh, and for those of you that don't know Tammy Bruce, she is a gay, gun owning, feminist, pro-choice, democrat, conservative radio host. She said today, referring to the gay community, 'For you to turn, after what we've been fighting for, for generations, that you have now turned into the bullied bigots, that is the antithesis of everything we were fighting for.'

Power corrupts.

All of this is a laughably terrible argument.

And I use the term laughably quite literally. I did laugh audibly.

"I hope these blacks are happy. They have 'equal rights' now. They can sit in the diner and eat. I don't want to serve them, but I'm forced to. I guess that's 'equality'".

Not in Indiana, but I just went into a Jewish food establishment (Dunkin Donuts) and got a ham and cheese bagel.

I didn't demand it so much as order it. The girl at the counter smiled and confirmed I want it toasted.

So you believe that if a woman has sex before marriage she should be stoned to death?

Also, the Lord, your God, said you can't mix meat and dairy. So if you believe him, eating a cheeseburger is a sin.

Gosh, maybe I should have said a Hassidic deli or fundamentalist muslim falafel shop. But thank you for not trying to get the point.

No, I got the point. It was a laughably stupid one. That's why I mocked it. (Although for the record, I had quite literally walked into a Jewish owned restaurant and 'demanded' cooked ham. They served it to me)

You somehow thought demanding something not on the menu in an establishment was akin to walking into a pizza place and ordering a slice of pizza, to the point where you used it as a comparable example.

I guess if a gay couple went into a pizza place and asked for a large pie with rainbow colored pepperoni that was arranged to depict two guys blowing each other, you might have a valid point.

Once again, who's rights are more important? Could a gay interior decorator refuse services to a bigot? Let's say that gay decorator is the best in the country, and the grand poobah of the kkk wants to force him to decorate his house to prove a point. The poobah's point he's trying to prove is that 'those people' are only good for certain jobs. If the gay decorator knows that, does he have a right to refuse his services?

And just to add to that, the kkk poobah wants to hire a black lawn service professional, as he likes to see black people working in his garden. Can that black lawn service professional refuse service?

Yes, they most certainly can.

They can say "I'm sorry, sir, but we're terribly overbooked right now and can't take the job."

Now, if they said ''Me don't like blacks' or 'me Bible say gay be bad', then there's going to most likely be punitive liability for violating someone's civil rights.

I guess you would be OK with the poobah suing those business into bankruptcy, then. The gay and black man have just refused service due to the poobah's beliefs, even if those beliefs are despicable. It shouldn't be too much of a problem for the poobah to show that neither business was overbooked, and they lied for the purpose of discrimination.

Would you be OK with the pizza place saying, "I'm sorry, we're overbooked right now"? Should not these rights be applied equally to assure equality?

If that business was stupid enough to say they were refusing service to someone due to race or sexual orientation, then, yeah, they deserve the lawsuit coming to them.

Oh, I see now. It's not discrimination if you lie. It's nice that you found a solution to those Christians that have lost businesses over this issue.

Again, if your bigotry leads you to violate someone's civil rights, don't expect me to cry when you lose your business.

It's called social Darwinism. If you're dumb enough to do something like that, you deserve what's coming your way.

I'm supposed to feel bad because a guy lost his business for reusing to serve blacks?

Every Christian is now laughing at this statement. You continue to show ignorance of the Christian Religions but you just can't help opening that alligator mouth of yours about things of which you have no clue. Try educating yourself before speaking and you won't look so foolish.

Once again, from what you said, it's ok to discriminate if you lie, but these Christians that were honest should be run out of business. This is a very strange world you live in. Are you not against discrimination based on religion too?

This is coming from the guy whose posts raise valid questions as to whether or not he can read at a middle school level?

Also, you're dodging again.

The Lord, your God, quite clearly says that a woman who has sex before marriage should be pulled from her house and stoned to death.

You stated you agreed and believed everything the Lord, your God, says.

Do you believe this?

You can toss out your childish insults but when you try to talk about a subject for which you have no clue, you show yourself to be a fool who just wants to run his mouth. Seriously, educate yourself about that previous statement on what Christians can eat and you will see your own stupidity. Seriously. You seem to be somewhat educated but you continue to act the fool.

I didn't say it was OK.

But it would be harder to prove, now wouldn't it?

If you're dumb enough to fly your bigot flag, guess what's coming?