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So which link was for that quote?

How did I lie requesting a link?

He already provided a link. That's pretty simple.

Where is it then, shouldn't be hard to supply if it's posted already. I take it you clicked the link and it worked perfect and was about the quote?

I think your a good dude and I think you want to believe as do we all that the Browns are finally on to something. And they are IF they learn to do just their job and nothing else.

Pblack posted something I neither know to be true, nor do I know to be a lie, I will repeat what I said when I started this thread I don't have the time to go and read much about the Browns lately I have had a bit more time but I can't say I ever read the piece but I have no reason to doubt what he said is anything but true. If the lines between Owner/GM/coach were well defined and everyone were focused on their job this doesn't happen to begin with so I would have to believe its 1000% true. At some point I will take the time to confirm it because I think its important to be as accurate as possible when saying something like this until then I won't repeat it thats for sure.

Do I believe it true absolutely it fits their MO to a tee.

I said to you in my prior post look how they have handled JF, I mean really look at it.

1- they insist he play when Hoyer stumbles, which on the surface makes sense but then again JF is ill equipped to play. How could they not know?

2- after watching him falter in the worst performance I think I have ever scene they trot him out the following week for an encore. why? did they learn anything from the 1st go round?

3- the off season comes and JF decides its time to clean up his act and the organization says all the right things. Wow they are getting it!

4- Reports have been coming out of Berea for weeks now that the organization has all but totally given up on JF.

But not a word comes out of Berea nothing. Look he is your guy you drafted him you put him in a situation where he wasn't prepared you leap frog your HC and insist he play when he wasn't ready which set the kid up to fail then when the kid is ready to come back from rehab and all sorts of reports surface saying your once again not supporting your guy you remain silent. You show no leadership in saying look we knew JF was a player we would have to develop and we are committed to doing that JF has our total support we made a mistake playing him but we believe in him and we are committed to getting him ready to play when he is ready he will play and we have his back 1000%.

Make no mistake JF will fail because they are leading him to the cliff as we speak. Its plain to me as day.

You speak to me about give it time and tell me about it taking time, yet these buffoons have tossed in the towel on their QB choice from a year ago after 7 quarters. A commitment to win takes a steady hand even in a crap storm. You have to take bullets for your guys its how you show support which allows them to be their best, which leads to winning.

No they haven't learned anything, there isn't a blessed thing they would have done different and that scares the b Jesus out of me. Well there is one thing they would have done different I suppose not sure on this though, they wouldn't have gotten caught texting I think? This year their bound to adopt hand signals of some sort, or perhaps set up some sort of messenger deal. [sigh]

Man, I disagree with a lot of this, if not all of it.

We went 7-9, and stopped being an "easy win" last year.

Winning is always the main goal, but to get to winning from losing, you have to change the way things have been done. Part of that is changing the mindset. I have used my own far less high profile experience at turning businesses around as an example, and the 1st thing I have always done in turning a business around is changing some very visible things. I want visible, mental reminders available every day to let people know that this is not the same business it used to be. This is the same thing that has to happen in the NFL. Bad teams start expecting to lose. They start expecting to make the big mistake at the wrong time. They start expecting the black cloud to follow them. Changing that mindset s vital, and this is done with the coach's emphasis on certain ideals, bringing in veteran leaders to help change the mindset, and so on.

We have a new OC, but he is a WCO coordinator, and will use a similar playbook to what Shanahan did. One other thing about Shanahan ..... I liked the guy as a coach last year, but let's face it, he never did anything to help the team overcome the loss of Alex Mack. We still ran the same plays as if the backup was going to block to the 2nd and 3rd levels. Hoyer looked worse and worse last year as the year went along,. I think that the coordinator bears some degree of responsibility. I do like his play design, but let's face it, we were 27th in scoring last year, scoring 18.1 PPG last year. We were also 27th the year before, and scored 19.3 PPG in 2013. Yes, we actually went down in scoring last year from the year before. I know I was shocked.

The defense, however, improved dramatically. We were 8th in scoring defense last year. In 2013 we were 25th in scoring defense, at 25.4 PPG. We made a massive improvement on defense. We intercepted the ball 21 times last year, and forced 15 fumbles, recovering 8. In 2013, we intercepted the ball 14 times, and forced 9 fumbles. recovering 7. We improved greatly on defense, and got better as the year went by, even with tons of injuries. The defense improved as players learned the defense. The offense did not.

Yes, I am concerned about Shanahan leaving, but let's not make him out to be the savior of Browns football or something.

As far as Pettine, the one thing that truly impressed me was that he already knows how to delegate, and can do so without having his ego trip him up. Yes he made mistakes last year. He screwed up timeouts on occasion, and made other "rookie" mistakes. However, I think that he will improve in that regard. He is a very smart man, and understands the game of football. I have every expectation that he will improve.

I think that he now has a coordinator he trusts on the offensive side of the ball. It is obvious that something went wrong among the coach groups last year, and I choose to believe that it was Shanahan who was the core of the problem. There were rumors that Pettine had a list of potential OCs before Shanahan made his presentation to beg to leave. I think that it was a mutual separation From what I have read, Fillipo runs a similar offense, and is looking at keeping many of the same calls as we used last year. I think that we will show improvement on that side of the ball. Even if we didn't, we are going to have new players at QB, TE, and WR anyway. They are going to have to learn the new offense regardless what offense we run. So will any rookies we draft. I am not as worried about this aspect of things as others are.

Anyway, I liked a lot of what Shanahan did last year, and had problems with others., He did a good job when he had all of his pieces, but struggled when he lost Mack. He was good, but the defensive coaches did a better job last year as far as scoring/stopping the other team from scoring is concerned. I think that we'll be god with the new, revised staff.

While W84N's post was logical and rationale, all you did was speculate to support a position that you are 100% committed to.

Why would the FO come out and say Manziel is our guy when everyone from Haslam to Farmer to Pettine has said the QB situation is muddy at best and they are not sure if the QB of the future is on the roster? Wouldn't that be contradicting themselves?

You are so upset that the team did not support Hoyer that you are now using that same reason ...them not proclaiming this is Manziel's team...to slam them when they have openly stated Manziel will have to earn it. That it may not be his team.

You also have to consider that depending on what happens on draft day, there may be a deal in place for Manziel. Why proclaim something that will make you look foolish three weeks from now? We have no idea what is going on behind the scenes. We have no idea of their true feelings on Manziel. We have no idea of Manziel's feelings on the Browns and if he actually wants to be here. Maybe he has asked to be moved if the situation presents itself. Maybe he'd like to be closer to home. Maybe he'll be on this team next year and that is what he wants. The bottom line is we don't know what's going on behind the scenes with this situation.

We need to let this season unfold to see if these guys have learned from their mistakes. You can't honestly point to anything at this point that shows it one way or another and you can't apply Hoyer's situation to the Manziel situation. They are their own entities complete with all kind of nuances that make them apples and oranges.

I am saying Pat is still bitter about getting the boot by the Browns, and it has jaded his writing ever since. He was a better writer before he ever worked for the Browns

What did the Rams do? Not that the Rams are a winning organization at this point, but how did they handle Bradford right up until he wasn't a Ram anymore?

Contrast that to how the Browns have handled JF.

Sure its logical and sensical if it matches what you believe. But why did the FO insist that JF start last year? How has that effected JF value not just to the Browns but the rest of the league, or was that just one of the mistakes they made last season and will just pretend it never happened, you know write it off as a rookie mistake?

That's all fine and good until the reality is they have continued to build off their mistakes right through the off season so for me all is NOT forgiven based on what I see them doing at this very moment. They don't know what they are doing and they aren't learning because they think their smarter then everybody else and I'm certainly not going to endorse what I view to be stupidity..

And I may point out that I asked W84 why he believed what he did? What signs he saw that they had learned from their past mistakes and he couldn't offer up an answer then he turned the question to me and I answered him so his logic as you say lacks reason, but I will toss it over to you. Whats signs or indicators have you seen that lead you to believe this crew has learned from their past mistakes?

For my part, I think I have explained myself clearly. I think we have also agreed to disagree. I'm on to other discussions.

1. They did know, but really I think it came down to knowing Hoyer would not keep this team in contention..he was falling apart at the seams. The only logical solution is the hope that you could jar Manziel into acting like a professional..IF that was their mindset, I say it was a win.

Manziel might have never entered rehab, had he not been SHOWN what it is like in an actual NFL game. I think those 6 quarters of play time jarred his head into sobriety for 90 minutes of football reality.

2. We don't know what followed the week after the Bengals game. Maybe he showed something in practice that he was going to dedicate himself more? We weren't there, so this is impossible to answer...maybe they DID screw up and the lesson would have been learned regardless of him returning to the starting lineup. This one we will all have to ponder in our own heads, there is no opinion that will make sense to 50% of the readers.

3. Another, who knows what they are thinking..more to come in the 4th point. As a Browns fan, I have HIGH hopes that the discussions with Johnny are genuinely positive and they feel he has taken a turn in his life that may save, not only his life, but his professional career. The attitude he left that hospital in will go a long way in what the Browns do in the next few weeks, imho. None of us are privy to that unfortunately, but my hope is that he dedicates himself to the game as much as he did the bottle previously.

4. You cannot believe ANYTHING that is being "heard" out of Berea right now. This is the time for some lucky SOB reporter to happen to write the correct thing in order to further their career. I would be willing to bet "most" of these sources don't exist. After all, when they are wrong it is chalked up to a "smoke screen" for draft purposes. They can write anything they want and get away with it. Unfortunately many believe EVERYTHING that is written. If everything were true, we would be living simultaneous dimension all at the same time, because reports contradict themselves weekly.

Jimmy Donovan is employed by WKYC Channel 3 as Sports Director and occasional news anchor. He calls Browns games for Radio and is paid by the radio station.

I'm not sure how you figure he's an employee of the Browns?

Vers, I simply think you convinced yourself things are so dark. I am not saying everything is perfect. I tried reeling you back a little showing other teams with similar issues.

I do agree losing Shanny was disappointing. His play calling was the best we've seen in a long time. Shanny isn't without baggage. He left two clubs with a drama scene. Don't you find odd Shanahan didn't recruit any former players, Washington or Cleveland?

As for Farmer and texting, I've read your view points. I see what you are driving. Could you argue Farmer and coaches discussed and agreed to an agenda. As the game played people deviated from the agenda? Not saying it is acceptable conveying to the coaches during a game. I am simply applying reasoning.

Lastly, drafting Manziel. I can buy it was all Haslam. I can buy mixed opinions by the three Haslam, Farmer, and Pettine with consensus leaning toward Manziel. Could Haslam pulled rank? Sure. What owner would not. Manziel is a huge marketing machine. From a financial point of view that is huge for the business side. Ownership is driven making a little coin with their investment.

All three of these guys are new and will make mistakes. You labeled dysfunctional. I labeled rookie mistakes. Who is right? I guess time will tell.

Good Debate.

I saw a rack full of the NEW Manziel jerseys. Surely that is a sign he is staying.

The people who have paid attention to the Josh Gordon saga would agree with you.

True, but we also have to give them a second chance to find out if they can back it up with their actions. In Gordon's case, we have found it is not true. Manziel still can prove it.

All our QB's mechanics tore down because the team behind our QB's just wasn't very good, especially the oline play.

Manziel accepted the fact that he has a problem and tried to deal with it. Gordon always has an excuse as to why it wasnt his fault.

As for this regime, This is the first year that Farmer has his own scouts. He has a better understanding of what Pettine wants. Personally, I like the fact that he is in those meetings with the coaches so he can get a better perspective as to what players are doing and who is developing.

Yea and your Farmer is also SUSPENDED for 4 games this year! He better get in all the meetings he can...Geeezzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..........
Keep pouring the old kool-aid........

If the issue is actually "Browns Image", other than those avid fans, it's pretty bad. And even those avid fans must use a little wishful thinikng and hope to come to their conclusions.

What most fans and outsiders see is what's on the surface. What the media covers and what gets printed. Fans saw a player like Odell Beckham Jr. drafted at #12 who had over 1300 yards in 12 games and 12 TD's and a guy like Bridgewater drafted at #32 while Manziel fell on his face and ended up in rehab.

They see us change OC's like a hooker changes underwear and the last one running to get out of town. They have seen a huge turnover here in both coaching and the FO since our return with little sign of improvement. How many starting QB's have we had since 99 again?

Now I'm not saying all of the perception of the Browns image is accurate. I'm not saying it's 100% true. But if one wants to be rational, outside of those who dig and hope for the positive, see this as our image.

Because all they do is read the press. All they do is look at the obvious. It's not in their DNA to search for the silver lining. They don't devote the time and resources that many on this board do.

So like it or not, by the average observer, that's the image of the Browns.

11 pages?
We all know what the Browns image is and it is definitely not good.

This has evolved into perhaps the dumbest, misleading, corrupt thread.........maybe ever.

The OL didn't regress during the course of the year? Really???????????

Shanny did NOT have support from any of the players in Washington? Really?????????? Wanna bet? I mean......actual money? PM me.....go ahead and tell me how much you wanna bet and I will steal your money. If you don't have enough balls to do that, take that statement back.

This thread is a perfect example of people deliberately misleading other readers. That disgusts me. Make your argument. Disagree w/the other side all you want. But, don't deliberately mislead the readership by posting things as fact when there is clear evidence to counter what you are saying.

Guys..........that is something we should all heed. Don't state things as fact when they really aren't facts.

Who said those things? Was it BTTB? I'm trying to follow, but I'm not seeing it.

Rish.........you intentionally try to get people to gang up on me on more than one thread and than have the nerve to ask me a question. Seriously?

Take a hike, Rish. I want nothing to do w/the likes of you.

Tab, say what you will. The QB and OC that got us those seven wins are gone. We now have a QB who won 1 game last year and a second year QB in Manziel that stunk the place up in what little time he saw the field.

Now if you have decided to make lemonade out of lemons, so be it. But at least be honest enough to admit we're starting out with lemons. You simply choose to believe every article that goes along with what you want them to say and everyone else is a Bozo. That's fine. But since 1999 those Bozos have been MUCH more accurate in their predictions than you have been. FACT!

BTW- I didn't know kool aid starting making a cognac flavor!

I'm not meaning to attack you even though you seem to see everyone who looks at a less than .500 record as of little to no value as being in attack mode. It's nice that you have a positive spin on things. But let's not pretend it's something more than that.

I don't post enough for that to be true.



I thought it was a good question. So many people misuse (or don't use at all - like in this case the Quote feature) the features of this website that it's sometimes hard to follow who someone is responding to. I didn't remember reading those comments in the thread and was genuinely curious who had said them.



I enjoy hikes, but it's hard with having two small children. We did get them a wagon to pull them around in, which they really enjoy by the way. I think a traditional hike might be a little bumpy though. Plus, they get heavy after awhile.

Rish, the last two times we have talked were two attempts by you to get others to gang up on me. You made that choice. My choice is to now ignore you.

I'm sorry you see it that way. I don't recall asking anyone their opinion of you, your opinion, or their opinion of my opinion.

99% of the posters.............

correct.

Correct? Seriously?

The point is that he might be biased because he is being PAID to announce Brown's games by his station, which has a contract w/the Browns to televise the games.

Are you guys serous?

So, he's not paid by the Browns, like you said he was?

Go away. You are so freaking clueless or either just going out of your way to degrade me. I'm betting on the latter. Tell me you really have no idea how TV/Radio contracts work w/NFL teams.

Go ahead and explain how independent they are. Pffttt......you are a joke. I am going to quit responding to your crap again.

So, he's not paid by the Browns? Like you said he was?

He's got a job to do. He does it.

Who's the joke?

Typical, if you don't agree and fall in line with his thinking, Vers tells you to go away. LOL

LEts see if he can prove that the Browns employ Donovan..

By the way Vers, Donovan has been in the Cleveland market since around 1985. HE's been employed by Channel three that entire time. He's taken on side jobs at Sportstime Ohio and on WTAM (I think that's the radio Station)

He's handled his reporting duties the exact same way since he got here.

If your asking me if he makes money because or off the Browns, the answer is yes. Virtually every reporter that covers the Browns makes money in part BECAUSE of the Browns.. For the record, he makes money off or or because of the Cavs and Indians as well.

If that were the criteria for determining who works for who, then they ALL work for the Browns.

I'm pretty sure he is employed by the team. He does radio play-by-play for games on the Cleveland Browns Radio Network and shows on ClevelandBrowns.com. Yes, he is on WTAM but also, 100.7WMMS, a station in Mansfield, Canton, Columbus, etc. Actually, I don't think games are on WTAM anymore, I think the flagships are 92.3FM, 850AM, and 97.5FM (Akron). Anyways, all those stations are not paying Donovan. They're paying the Cleveland Browns in order to be able to play the games on their frequency to increase demand (and ultimately price) for advertising spots (I think). Donovan gets paid (I'm pretty sure) by the Cleveland Browns to do those games. Thus, an employee.

It's like Tom Hamilton of the Indians. He is an employee of the Tribe, not the hundreds of radio stations he's on.

I'm pretty sure that how the whole system works but someone correct me if I'm wrong.

You are correct.^


Same with Dieken.