DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Deflategate- Wells report finds Pats employees probably deflated balls vs. Colts

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In this case, I believe the lack of Brady's willingness to cooperate with the investigation by handing over his phone may actually be a bigger offense than deflating footballs.

Sometimes the cover up is a bigger deal than the infraction. In this case I believe the NFL may see it this way.

Evidence will either exonerate or convict you. Refusing to turn it over should be viewed as an admission of guilt. This isn't the Supreme Court, it's the NFL supposedly trying to protect the integrity of the game. The people that prepared this report are pansies afraid to upset the mighty B&B. The Browns would have been nailed to the wall if they'd done this.

If he gets hammered it'll be because he didn't cooperate fully with the investigation... I mean really... it's deflated balls... it shouldn't be a major issue; but to not cooperate and possibly lie to the NFL investigators has to piss off Rodger.

thats not their job, to feel for differences. they rely on the checking the balls PSI right before the game.

also, say wilson preferred his to be at 14.5 PSI, and brady at 12.5 PSI. theres a 2 PSI difference, they may feel that slightly. but if they feel both sets, and wilsons is 12.5 and bradys is 10.5, they may feel a difference, but assume its within the limits due to an actual meter checking them.

so who knows if they felt the patriots footballs and they felt a bit soft, we cant know.



what we do know is that they deliberately deflated them after they were checked.

Donte Stalworth is on cnn discussing this issue.

Big news, Donte Stalworth is not invisible. After his non appearance in 2 full years in Brown's games. Never getting a catch or a drop it seemed, I wasn't sure Donte Stalworth was more than a figment of my imagination.

Seriously I'm dumbfounded that Donte Stalworth is on Cnn Right this minute talking about deflategate

My thing is if he does always sign stuff for people in the organization, how does he not know a guy who has worked for the team his entire career with them? If he's not hiding something, why would he lie about that?

I would have loved to have had the same results with Brady and BB here in Cleveland, but I doubt it would have worked out that way. We've needed more than those two in the past.

Brady's only punishment will be that he has to wear all season long, a shirt with a new number on it.....11.5.

So I was excited when the schedule came out that Pittsburgh was ganna start out 0-1...

The only thing that could be better is them losing the opening weekend to Jimmy Garappolo..

BS, this is all BS. I know it wasn't the NFL but I remember playing back in the day, we always let a little air out of the ball when it was that friggin cold. This is just squeaky wheels getting a little grease. Time to move on. I'm betting if Goodell comes down hard on the Pats and Tom Brady we'll be seeing his departure as Comish sooner rather then later.....Mmmmmm ok I guess I hope Goodell suspends Brady for a year and takes away next year's number 1 pick now.

So .. you think that a star player should be allowed to cheat .... no matter what level .... lie about it repeatedly, do his best to block an investigation, and get away with it unscathed?

Suddenly some of your comments on other threads make considerably more sense.

No I don't. But you must prove he did it.

Such as?

Actually they don't. The fact he refused to provide his cell phone for them to look for texts concerning the issue is enough for punishment from the league. You can't prove something when someone refuses to cooperate.

That's why I stated earlier that the cover up may be more serious than the initial infraction. This isn't a court of law where you have to prove something beyond a reasonable doubt.

Would you give up your cell phone to someone without a court order? I wouldn't even if I wasn't hiding anything. Too much personal stuff could get into the wrong hands. Sorry you are wrong.

Still looking? LOL

Oh, just comments you have made on other topics .... in EE usually .....

There are text messages on other peoples phones, from Brady, so not having his phone isn't as important, as it still shows the messages, just from the other side. That can be proved relatively easily by using phone records from the other side. These messages indicate that he did, indeed, cheat. Brady lied about this, repeatedly, and now just refuses to answer questions, probably to stop him from incriminating himself further. He also tried to block the investigation by refusing to turn over his phobe records. If he was all that concerned, he could have agreed only to turn over records to and from a certain number, which the phome company could have done relatively easily. However, he refused all cooperation.

I don't know if deflating or inflating a ball has all that much of an impact on the game overall. However, the rule states a certain level is to be observed. The Patriots attendants broke that rule, and from their text message to and from Brady, taken from their phones and records, it is obvious that they did so at the direction of Brady, or at least at his request. If Brady would have come out immediately and said "I mentioned it, but never expected that they would actually do anything like this, and then when it was discovered, they started to imply that they might reveal that it was all me, and I got scared" ...... then that would have been one thing. However, he fell back on the political play-book of "deny, deny; deny, and then deny some more".

Brady acted as though he did nothing, and had nothing at all to do with this, and that was a lie. It has been proved to be a lie by the texts of the attendants.

Richard Nixon was thrown out of office not specifically for anything he did that was illegal, except for covering up the illegal activities of others. This is Brady's Watergate.

I'm not wrong at all. You seem to think this is some kind of criminal case in a court of law, but it's not. It's an NFL investigation. As such, there are guidelines contractually in place that require players to submit such things when requested in an investigation.

Now if you were speaking about a criminal case outside of NFL league rules and bylaws you would be 100% correct. But that's not how this works.

________________________________________________________

In the two days since the Ted Wells report emerged, plenty has been said about the decision of the Patriots not to make Jim McNally available for a follow-up interview and Patriots quarterback Tom Brady not to provide his text messages and emails.

At pages 30 and 31 of the report, another player is identified as refusing to cooperate fully.

“Stephen Gostkowski declined a similar request for pertinent electronic communications, but, unlike Brady, we did not press our request to him because his communications were not viewed as central to our work,” Wells writes.

Regardless of whether or not Ted Wells pressed Gostkowski, the failure to cooperate with a league investigation automatically constitutes conduct detrimental to the league. Absent separate — and stern — discipline, that sets a precedent that could be used by other players, teams, coaches, etc.

Got incriminating info on your phone? Refuse to provide it. Know things that would tend to point toward guilt? Refuse to talk, or at least refuse to answer certain questions.

Some fans think that’s OK, spouting off principles that apply only in the context of criminal prosecutions. But the right to remain silent, the presumption of innocence, the requirement of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, and all other Constitutional protections only matter when the outcome is prison or death.

For workplace investigations, the employer makes the rules. And when the employer expects cooperation, anything other than significant sanctions for failure to cooperate will invite others to refuse to cooperate.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/08/gostkowski-refused-to-cooperate-too/

Such as?. Is lowering the bar on guilt served in your holy water on Sunday also? Making these kind of accusations only justifies to me how wrong you are on many things here.

Prove the guilt and we'll talk.

Pressure gauge discrepancies undermine Wells report

When the NFL dusted off the Ted Wells bat signal in January for an investigation regarding the question of whether the Patriots tampered with footballs used in the AFC championship game, it was believed that the raw measurements of air pressure inside the footballs taken at halftime would point clearly to tampering. Lost in the text messages between Larry and Curly and the question of whether Tom Brady was the Moe Howard periodically clunking their heads together to ensure that the footballs were suited to his preferences is the possibility that the raw measurements don’t point to tampering.

The erroneous report from ESPN that 10 of 12 balls were 2.0 PSI below the 12.5 PSI minimum cemented the early narrative that the amount of air missing from the footballs clearly suggests tampering. The actual numbers, standing alone, say otherwise.

It’s possible that the actual numbers suggest no tampering at all. Which could be the biggest problem with the 243-page report.

Here’s where we try (key word: try) to take something that’s pretty complicated and make it somewhat understandable.

First, the officials had two pressure gauges available — and those pressure gauges generated very different measurements.

One gauge had a Wilson logo on the back. The other didn’t. One had an obviously crooked needle. The other didn’t.

The gauge with the Wilson logo and the longer, crooked needle typically generated higher readings, in the range of 0.3 to 0.45 PSI.

The measurements taken at halftime of the AFC title game by the two available gauges demonstrated this reality. Here’s the gap in PSI for each of the 11 Patriots footballs, based on the two gauges: (1) 0.3 PSI; (2) 0.35 PSI; (3) 0.35 PSI; (4) 0.3 PSI; (5) 0.35 PSI; (6) 0.35 PSI; (7) 0.45 PSI; (8) 0.45 PSI; (9) 0.4 PSI; (10) 0.4 PSI; and (11) 0.45 PSI.

Second, referee Walt Anderson doesn’t recall which gauge he used to measure PSI at the start of the game.

The absence of a documentation regarding the air pressure in the Patriots footballs prior to kickoff can be justified by Anderson’s clear recollection that he ensured each ball was set to 12.5 PSI. However, Anderson doesn’t clearly recall whether he used the gauge that generates the higher measurement or the one that generates the lower measurement.

It’s an important point because the gauge used before kickoff determines the starting point for the halftime analysis. If the pressures were set by the gauge with the logo and the long, crooked needle, that’s the gauge that should have been used at halftime. If it was the other gauge that was used before the game, that’s the one that should have been used at halftime.

The Wells report concludes that Anderson used the gauge that generates the lower measurement before kickoff, despite Anderson’s lack of specific recollection as to which gauge he used. The reasoning for the decision to assume Anderson used the gauge without the Wilson logo appears in the paragraph contained at the bottom of page 116 of the report.

Frankly, the explanation doesn’t make much sense. If anyone understands it, please let us know.

Here’s the one thing that does make sense: Without knowing which gauge was used to set the pressures before the game, it’s impossible to know which set of readings taken at halftime is the accurate set of readings, and which set of readings should be thrown out.

Third, knowing the gauge that was used before kickoff is critical to proving tampering.

At page 113, the Wells report states: “[T]he Ideal Gas Law predicts that the Patriots balls should have measured between 11.52 and 11.32 psi at the end of the first half, just before they were brought back into the Officials Locker Room. Most of the individual Patriots measurements recorded at halftime, however, were lower than the range predicted by the Ideal Gas Law.”

As those of you who were visiting PFT frequently in the early days of #DeflateGate may recall, the Ideal Gas Law refers to the formula that determines the changes in gases based on various factors, including but not limited to volume, pressure, and temperature. And the Wells report concludes that all Patriots footballs should have measured between 11.52 and 11.32 PSI at halftime.

But that observation hinges on the question of which gauge was used to set the PSI prior to kickoff. If the gauge that generates the higher numbers was used, the measurements of the Patriots footballs taken by that gauge are mostly consistent with the 11.52-11.32 PSI range at halftime: (1) 11.8; (2) 11.2; (3) 11.5; (4) 11.0; (5) 11.45; (6) 11.95; (7) 12.3; (8) 11.55; (9) 11.35; (10) 10.9; and (11) 11.35.

Based on those readings, three of the footballs were above the predicted range, five were in the predicted range, and three were below the predicted range.

By assuming that the gauge that generates the lower readings was used before the game began, the readings taken by that same gauge at halftime show that one ball was above the predicted range, two were in the predicted range, and eight were below the predicted range. Which is more consistent with the conclusion that some degree of tampering occurred.

So, basically, the scientific proof of tampering hinges on a literal coin flip between the pressure gauge that generated a higher reading and the pressure gauge that generated a lower reading. Apart from the very real problems inherent to the NFL using pressure gauges that generate such dramatically different readings for a key postseason game, the justification used to assume that Walt Anderson used before kickoff the gauge that makes tampering more likely doesn’t feel like the outcome of a scientific experiment. It feels like an effort to work backward to justify a predetermined conclusion.

None of this changes the fact that Larry and Curly exchanged text messages that point to a pattern of tampering during and prior to the 2014 season. None of this changes the fact that Tom Brady a/k/a Moe Howard may have a smoking gun or two lurking somewhere on his cell phone.

Regardless, scientists don’t dabble in probability or inference; even with the 50.1-vs.-49.9 standard of proof that applies both to civil lawsuits and the NFL’s High Court of Cheating, expert witnesses typically must base their opinions on a reasonable degree of scientific certainty. The fact that two gauges were available to Walt Anderson, the fact that those gauges generated such dramatically different readings, and the fact that Anderson specifically doesn’t remember which of the gauges he used to set the pressure prior to kickoff makes it very difficult to conclude with any degree of certainty whether the accurate measurements taken at halftime are the ones that suggest tampering, or the ones that don’t.

While the full scope of the report suggests that something fishy happened, it was believed all along that a conclusion of tampering would be backed up by sound, scientific evidence that tampering occurred. Despite 243-pages of polish, the scientific evidence in this specific case is significantly undermined by the fact that the NFL was using a clearly defective pressure gauge prior to one of its most important football games of the year.

UPDATE 1:25 p.m. ET: As to Anderson’s recollection regarding the gauge used to set the PSI levels before kickoff, his “best recollection” is that he used the gauge with the logo, which generates higher numbers. But he conceded that it’s “certainly possible” he used the other gauge, and the Wells report concludes that he did.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/05/10/pressure-gauge-discrepancies-undermine-wells-report/

Done it before.. because somebody probably had inappropriate sexual contact or probably initiated violence on somebody or probably used PEDs because the sample was diluted... a lot of things are never confirmed but are still punished by the NFL..

Does this rise to the level of most of those? No, it does not.

But I don't get the "it's no big deal" group... if you aren't going to enforce the rules, then do away with the rules. If you keep the rules and somebody gets caught breaking them, especially intentionally, then there has to be a punishment. I do believe a lot of the vitriol is because it's Brady and the Patriots, if this was Blaine Gabbert and the Jags, nobody would care (though he should still be punished).. but this was Tom Brady, in the AFC championship game.. The fact that he knew the rule and apparently willfully decided to break that rule, kind of is a big deal.

Pats just got hammered. Brady out first four games, lose 1st round pick in 2016, and more. Ouch.

The Patriots will just recoup that first round pick after Garoppolo lights it up in the first four games and then is flipped for a first rounder.

Justice served, Brady four game suspension, team fined 1 million dollars and took away their first round picks and their 2017 fourth round pick.

I gotta say, I did not expect the hammer to come down like that.

Who do the Pats play in week 5?

The team that blew the whistle on Brady.

Of course, Brady will probably appeal and it'll get shortened.

Deflating balls > Filming opposing team's signals > Artificial crowd noise > GM texting

I think it's more the repeat offender issue than the severity of this "crime".

^^^ exactly.

I was talking about severity of punishment.

I guess it goes:

Deflating balls > Bounties on player > Filming opposing team's signals > Artificial crowd noise > GM texting > Coach obstructing player from scoring TD

J/C

Anyone else hear Austin Carr's "Throw the hammer down" line when this was announced?

Bold prediction:

One of Brady or Garoppolo will be the Browns QB in 2016. Also, Garoppolo will replace DeFillipo as the name I have to Google every time I type it.

I didn't know Belichick killed someone, but it doesn't surprise me.

Lowering the standards on sin ..... accepting behavior because "we accept other things" ..... and so on.

Anyway, back to Brady, he got hammered, along with his team. Ouch.

how many games did Brady get suspended for?



aight im done.

Also the number of Brady's Super Bowl victories and TDs Brady threw in the Super Bowl with non-deflated balls against the "Legion of Boom."

i know right? he was a beast in that SB

but he's still a:



lol aight seriously this time. i'm done.

Didn't Brady run a 40 over in over five seconds? I'm guessing he hasn't gotten faster since then. I don't think a cheetah is a good comparison.

The Steelers must love this Week one.

J/C


My favorite lines from the ruling. Not necessarily in regards to the ruling, but more in how they could be applied to a lot of the recent arguments on the boards. For example, my first thought upon reading this was to replace "one factor" with "Hoyer".

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