DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Satanists Seize On Hobby Lobby To Test The Limit Of Religious Freedom

Ok then, I can accept that but If you look over every thread you will see that things go pretty much as I describe.

I am not here to make myself look smart or good or above anyone. I think I have proven that by not being the best communicator or writer anyone has ever seen.

In this thread I made it clear why, as a Christian American, I find the thought of approving homosexual acts as being against my Religion. I ask everyone else to justify their acceptance of such acts, once they are done insulting me, we discuss. I have only gotten 1 answer to my question of why God destroyed Sodom and G. Christians all know the answer to this question or they can look it up in the Bible to see the Truth.
Many don't or won't like what they find but they will have the TRUTH.

Next I will ask if they think God was wrong. If they answer yes, it will be an indication that some soul searching is needed. I would have nothing further to say but it will be my hope they do question themselves and why they find themselves at odds with their God.

Do you believe living in a dedicated same-sex marriage is more sinful than living in a heterosexual marriage where both spouses cheat on each other?

The church still enables a married couple to be sinful and create a sinful act. What makes a same-sex marriage more sinful than a heterosexual marriage full of "sin"?

Sin is sin. God will judge us all, not man.

Both spouses cheating on each other is still illegal in 27 states. You want to legalize it Nationally? I will fight you!

We've legalized pornography, the death penalty, "profane" music, and countless other acts deemed as "sin". Why is same-sex marriage any different?

I fought them all and lost.

God destroyed Sodom & Gomorrah because some men came to lots house wanting to have sex with angels. Lot even offered his virgin daughters to the mob to be gang raped instead. If the men coming to Lots house were gay why would Lot send his daughters?

Also Lot is a total awesome man of God to offer his daughters for gang rape

Also, incest is okay if ordained by God and you date rape your own daughters...

Nope, no double standard or cherry picking there..

Do you feel that because we, as a society, have accepted many sins and sinful activities as acceptable behavior that we should just approve of all sins and sinful activities?

Where do you draw the line. How far is too far? What is completely and totally unacceptable? For how long?

No, which is why the bible calls for the death penalty for each of those sins equally. The bible is fair. It's us humans making excuses to allow living in sin that twists everything. Of course you're going to say that being put to death for breaking your wedding vows and destroying your family to have a little sex is crazy but I say those with honor have nothing to fear anyways so I could care less about honorless dogs staying alive.

I'm the son of a Marine who was in special forces so I am what my father made me =) We take our oaths and our honor seriously in my family.

The answers to those questions lie in the heart of each man who would speak out on such a subject... and there is a different line for every man who would lend his voice to this conversation.

I've drawn the line at where the law for our land says it should be drawn. And I'm OK with seeing the line continually re-drawn... because I believe that the system we've created for ourselves will 'self-correct' over the course of time.

40YEARS has his own line... and he's stated (quite eloquently and without ambiguity) where his line is drawn. You have done the same in many posts.

The fact that each of us draws his line at different points is the underlying source of the debates we have in this forum. EACH of us believes in his heart that he is right. NONE of us has The Full Truth to embolden us to make the assertions we make.

We only have what we BELIEVE to spur us onward.

It's the main reason why I've never told 40YEARS outright that I think he is wrong-headed about ANY conviction he's posted. I'm just humble (and self-aware) enough to realize [at the onset of any such discussion] that I DON'T have all the answers. There is something I can learn from anyone who wants to talk with me.

The 'free speech' provision in our Bill of Rights is perhaps the quirkiest and most compelling aspect of being a citizen of a country that allows ALL its citizens to freely speak their minds. The cacophony that results can make one's head ache at times... but it's necessary to the evolution of The Union.

I actually WANT Christians to lend their voices to the tumult. They have a voice that can lend strength to what we wish to become, as a nation.

At the same time, I'm also happy that we don't live in a theocracy, where national policy is based upon "the will of God"... as is interpreted by men here on Earth.

I don't trust other men to tell me what to think or what to feel/glean/intuit.

History is rife with the misadventures of people spurred onward by dogmatic adherence to words written by "fallible chunks of 98.6" written <2K years ago.

On the contrary, I'll continue to seek out God's voice in my own 'inner ear'... and order my steps accordingly. When He speaks upon my heart, I KNOW where my steps must fall... and sometimes, those next steps will run counter to the things other men have been told to believe.

THOSE will always be my lines. I'll draw them in accordance to His will, and I'll always speak them freely, with no regard to how they are received by the ears of other men.

Some of you won't like what you hear.
I don't care about that.
I CAN'T care about that.

I can only speak out about what He's placed upon my heart.

It's all I've ever done in these threads.
It's all I can ever do.

Joining the slow, but quickening clap.

I'm not religious, so this talk of "sins" doesn't affect me.

I'll make this simple. God didn't destroy S&G. He was neither right nor wrong in destroying the cities because it never occurred.

Correct, he didn't say "Go do whatever you want" he also did not say he would stop her if she chose too. She was told to sin no more, but then left that decision up to her.

Is It? For example, should children pay for the sins of the father? The KJV Bible doesn't seem so sure:

It would help your case if you posted in a way that shows your understanding of what your posting.

The first instance is a declaration of war against Babylon because of its nation's many atrocities against its own people and especially the Jews. He is declared to be as Lucifer(the devil) and it is HIS children who will not be spared. In other words, that verse is declaring that people who prefer to be children of Lucifer instead of God will be utterly destroyed.

The second instance is in fact a declaration of normal everyday law. It is just stating that when a family member breaks the law aka sins then it will be that person's sin only and the rest of their family will not be held accountable if they are innocent. BTW before this law was made your ENTIRE family would suffer for the crimes of your family member. Sometimes entire tribes of people would be punished for the mistake of one person. This was a law of mercy and its great!

The Bible is more than fair. Its when people wanting to twist it around to exclude their favorite sins so they don't have to feel bad about they way they are living that things become confusing. Sometimes its also just from lack of understanding. That's why it's a pastor's job to teach and correct ignorance.

It's unfortunate that too many pastors are more worried about the church's income instead of tending to his flock. If the church deacons and elders also did their jobs right the pastor would not be put in that position of weakness. When the flock leads the shepherd then everyone is set to suffer for it.

What does Jesus teach us about sin?

Well, he teaches us that not everyone who calls out to Him, saying "Lord! Lord!' will make it through the narrow gates. (to heaven)

Why is this? I believe that it is because people do not want to follow Him. Sure, they profess to. However, when it comes down to brass tacks, and they have to give up their favorite sins, they find excuses. Some do not even bother to read their Bibles, and they just make it up as they go along, based on "what feels good".

It always amazes me when I see polls where 60-70% of those polled say that they believe in the Bible, and that it is the Word of God ..... yet while they may know a few verses, they never bother to crack their Bibles outside of church. How should people know what God wants from them, and separate an earthly message from the true message of God?

I respect the fact that you want Christians involved in decision making for society, That in and of itself is more than many people want. I have heard people say that we need to somehow divorce ourselves from our Christian beliefs if we want to contribute "fairly" to governing. How? Why? Why should Christians have to divorce themselves from their beliefs in any aspect of life? However, many seem to think that Christians should just meekly and quietly hide in their homes, and hide in a dark, soundproofed room, and worship God silently, so that noe t one other person can ever hope to hear them. Some think that Christians should be so happy and joyous with the gift of Jesus Christ that we should hide it inside ourselves, and never let it be seen by anyone.

I disagree with this, and I believe that Jesus would disagree with this as well. In fact, I know He would based on what the Bible says.

Now, people all have lines in their lives, some that can be crossed easily, others that would take a great deal to force them to cross, and some that they would never cross. That is why I put the question forth. However, no one has really answered it. What is a step too far? How far is too far? Should we make murder legal, because we have too many people in prison? Should we legalize child molestation, because it may be an irresistible, internal set of urges, completely natural on an internal level? Should we legalize all drugs, because there is no real victim in drug use of any and all kinds? Should we allow an abortion all the way up to, and including the delivery of the fully developed child?

How far is too far? Where do we draw the line?

People want to use one of 2 tacts in trying to push their agendas. Either they want to try to make an issue a civil rights issue, which many that are veiled under this heading are absolutely not ....... or they want to use the sliding scale .... "well, this is OK, so why not this other thing ....." That latter one is how children wind up screwed up IMHO. The kid tries to get away with a violation of his parents rules. They allow it. So, he tries to get away with a bigger violation, and they say/do nothing. He then continues bigger and more blatant violations of his parents so-called rules. What does he learn? That rules don't count, and that they don't matter.

Now we seem willing to expand this to a societal level. "Don't do this ...", only it is done, and approved of. "Don't cheat on your spouse", but it's OK when it happens. "Don't cheat your business partners, customers, and/or investors" ...... but what happens when these occur? Many times, nothing. We just continue to the lowest acceptable level on human behavior, instead of holding people to standards.

The best part is that this is all too often done in the name of "tolerance". I believe that there has to be a limit as to what is tolerable, and what is not. However, today it seems like the most intolerable thing is those who have morals or values. If you don't agree with the world, and its corruption, then you are intolerant. If you don't believe that premarital sex and children being born into poverty, and out of wedlock is a god thing, then you are just intolerant. The list goes on and on. It is to our shame as a people, and to the church that all too often stood by silently, or in some denominations became involved in their own perverse scandals. At one time, the church, using the Bible, was the moral watchdog of American society. Unfortunately a great many things have eroded that moral authority. TV evangelists who care more about money than spreading the Word of God. Churches that focus too intently on one or 2 sins, giving them special status above all else, while ignoring the rest. There are many others, but it seems like these, along with the abandonment of their role as the moral guide for most people have been the biggest problems.

Further, I am just astonished when i see polls that say that 88% of American homes own at least 1 Bible. Really? This is astonishing. Then I look at whether or not our behavior matches what the Bible teaches, and I have to say that it does not. I have seen polls that say that 80% of people believe that the Bible is the Word of God, and sacred, yet they do not read it. Man, I am astonished by this, but really shouldn't be because I did this myself. I would love to know the percentage of Americans who say that they believe in the Bible, that it is sacred, and is The Word of God, yet do not regularly read it, and who decide for themselves what they want it to say, rather than what it actually says. The contradiction is rather amazing. Yet, I, myself, did this for most of my life. I rationalized that my behavior was OK because I "believed in God, and in Jesus, and that He is Lord", and all of that good stuff. I believed "in" it, without truly believing it to be vital to be life ans soul. I rationalized a great number of things, using verses out of context, and imagining that God was fine with me pretending to follow Him, while disobeying every rule he set, in one shape or another.

I was one of the lucky ones, who finally got the message. I finally let Jesus into my life, and agreed to follow Him. By this, I also agreed to do as He taught while he was on this earth. Being a Christian is not just giving lip service to the idea of Jesus .... it is following Jesus. It is doing as he would have us do. It is moving away from sin, with His help and guidance. It is not joyfully rebelling, reveling in sin because we like it, and feel that it is actually "right", despite what the Bible says. It is accepting that there is a difference between being a sinner, stuck in a sin filled and ruled world, and falling into sin too often, and gleefully sinning because "we are forgiven". I wonder what Jesus will say to so many people who revel in their sins, while saying that they believe in Him. Actually I don't wonder, because He Himself told us.

Anyway, back to the topic .... we want to make our own decisions as to what we think is "nice", or "tolerant", or "inclusive", or so on ..... and many think that this is what Jesus taught. It is not though, Jesus accepted "all", but only all of those who came to Him. Many people consider themselves Christians, yet they are not following what Jesus taught. The Bible tells us not to help someone to fall. We, as a society, are pushing a lot of people these days. Want to sin? Go ahead! It's fine! It'a a choice! No one should be able to tell you that you can't be what you are inside! The list goes on, and I think that many well meaning people get tied up in this cycle. However, I believe that we should not. I think that the Bible gives us the lines to be followed, and not to be crossed. However, as Christians, in order to know what these lines are, we must actually read the Bible.

This is where i set the line. While I accept everyone's right to condemn themselves, I do not support society assisting them in doing so, and encouraging them to do so. That is where we are at today. Instead of holding our urges inside, and growing stringer from doing so, we are supposed to just allow whatever urges we feel burst forth, because if you feel it, it must be right.

Sorry, but I disagree. There has to be a moral limit, and I fear that we have completely obliterated these limits as a society. I disagree with the thought that "we do this, so doing this is only fair". I do not believe in amoral sliding scale. I am not saying that this country has always been perfect, and I am not saying that the churches have always been perfect, but moving away from morality towards immorality is never a good thing. Eliminating things like slavery and other oppressive systems was good. Abortion will never be a good thing in my eyes. (and I believe it will not be a good thing in the eyes of Jesus either) I believe that abortion is one of the most immoral acts a person can commit. There are so many others that are almost on the same level. However, we continue to add to our immorality in the name of acceptance and choice. Fortunately, everyone on this earth also has the choice, and the acceptance that come with turning to Jesus Christ, and truly following Him.

We all have to make our own decisions as to what we see as moral. I believe that we may also have to answer to a much, much higher authority for the decisions we have made.

Why base laws off of morals which have no backing? Why not endorse Sharia Law instead? Basing a national secular state off of unproven (faith doesn't count in the realm of legalities) claims doesn't necessarily work.

I would not base laws on anything to do with muslims because they follow a false prophet who has led many people astray from God/Allah. They also use Taqiyya to justify being liars.

What does Jesus say about liars?

"You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it." - John 8:44

You will know a man by his works and not by his words. "Thou shalt not LIE." Because the Quran justifies lying to non muslims it is not a work of God but instead the Devil.

"The Apostle said...'Who will rid me of Ibnul Ashraf?' Muhammad bin Maslama, brother of the Bani Abdul-Ashaf, said, 'I will deal with him for you, O Apostle of Allah, I will kill him.' [Muhammad] said, 'Do so if you can... All that is incumbent upon you is that you should try.' [The Assassin] said, 'O Apostle of Allah, we shall have to tell lies.' He answered, 'Say what you like, for you are free in the matter.'" - Ibn Ishaq, The Life of Muhammad, page 307

His actions are not those of someone who follows God. Lies belong to the Devil.

I do not support any religion that makes it ok to lie.

What does anyone have outside of faith, proselytizing, personal anecdotes (weird stuff happens), and feel good stories that their religion is true? I'm not saying it isn't possible, but the evidence just isn't there to base laws off of any religion.

You can try and cite "Well, people have had near death experiences", but it turns out every single near death experience riffs off of that persons personal belief system. There are accounts from Hindus, Muslims, etc. all claiming to see their ideal afterlife.

Yes, weird stuff has even happened to me. I can't explain if these moments are coincidences, or just some part of a bigger plan. The key is that there is no concrete evidence staring at me in the face.

Therefore, we should not make civil laws based off of texts that require blind faith.

“Rob McKenna was a miserable bastard and he knew it because he’d had a lot of people point it out to him.”

Rob McKenna is an ordinary lorry driver who can never get away from rain and he has a log-book showing that it has rained on him every day, anywhere that he has ever been, to prove it. He was described by the scientific community as a “Quasi Supernormal Incremental Precipitation Inducer.”[1] Arthur suggests that he show the diary to someone, which Rob does, making the media deem him a “Rain God” (something which he actually is) for the clouds want “to be near him, to love him, to cherish him and to water him”. This windfall gives him a lucrative career, taking money from resorts and similar places in exchange for not going there. McKenna splashes Arthur Dent, who is hitchhiking in a normal environment, on the side of a desolate road in England.[2] Then Arthur meets him in a café, in “Thundercloud Corner,” Rob McKenna’s personal spot, which most people wouldn’t venture near.

McKenna is mentioned continually throughout the book, especially when he is hailed by the media as a “Rain God,” though not in those terms. He explains, as the narrator does in the book, that “Quasi Supernormal Incremental Precipitation Inducer” means, in layman’s terms, a Rain God, but the media couldn’t call him simply that, because it would suggest that the ordinary people knew something they didn’t.

McKenna hates the music of Barry Manilow.


Douglas Adams
"So Long And Thanks For All The Fish"

Which morals do have backing?

I'm glad you think the Bible is, for God sure isn't.

Thank you, I love this book.

Why?

In what way?

There are young children dying every day of cancer; yet people who commit the sins that God warns will bring your demise still live full and happy lives.

So you think it would be more "fair" if good people lived longer than bad people?

My feelings are irrelevant, unless you are suggesting God is unfair? What in the case of child crime?

You either have a God who sends child rapists to rape children or you have a God who simply watches and says "When the rapist is done, I will punish them." If I could stop a person from raping a child, I would. If I stood idly by, I would be rightfully prosecuted for not trying to save the child.

That is the view that many people hold. However, God created the world to be perfect. Satan sinned, and then Satan induced Eve, and then Adam to sin also. This brought sin not only into the world, but also into each and every one of us. See, God also gave Adam and Eve (and their children) free will as well. He allows them to decide for themselves what path to take, and what they feel is right for them.

God's plan was that man would live with Him, in harmony and love. Man screwed that up though. That ended God's perfect plan for the time being, and God could have ended man at that point as well, but He was (and is) merciful. God gave us a 2nd chance, and 3rd chance and 4th chance ...... and He continues to give us 2nd, 3rd, and 4th chances all the days of our lives.

God did not bring death into the world, sin did. A world without sin will never experience death. However, since Eve and Adam decided to sin, that introduced death. God even warned them that eating from the tree would bring death, yet they did so anyway.

Death is a reality of a fallen world. It was not God's choice, but rather, it is man's choice. Man loves sin more than he loves God. That is a shame. However, even in death, God gives us incredible opportunities for redemption. Jesus also assures us that those children who die without yet having reached the age of accountability will go to heaven despite their sins. (their own and their inherited sins) Jesus taught us that we should be like little children, and he made numerous references to children in the Bible:

Matthew 18:10: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven.

Matthew 19: 13-14 says: Then children were brought to him that he might lay his hands on them and pray. The disciples rebuked the people, but Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me and do not hinder them, for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven.”

1 Corinthians says that believers families are sanctified along with themselves.

1 Corinthians 7:14: "For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy."

There are many other verses in the Bible that indicate that a child who has not yet understood right from wrong, and/or a child who has not committed any works to be judged will not be judged as guilty.

The premise of the Bible, from the beginning, is that God is several things.

God is good.

God is just.

God is love.

God is jealous.

God wants us to love Him.

God is almighty.

God is all knowing.

If we believe these things, to any degree, then we cannot see God as some mean kid who does things to us just to torment us. Do I think that God does sometimes do things in order to satisfy His ends? Of course. I have a strong feeling that my back falls into this category. I have very specific reasons for this, that I don't feel like getting into publicly, but I do believe it.

Anyway, once sin was loosed upon the world by man, God had a couple of choices.

He could destroy man and start over.

He could change His own rules, but since God is just, that would go against His nature.

He could offer man a way out, that would be in accordance with His love, and His just nature. This was His solution, and He did so in the person of Jesus Christ, and His sacrifice on the cross for all who would believe in Him. Given that God is love, and that God is just, then I believe that children will have the opportunity to accept Jesus at judgment. I have every reason to believe that they will be given the capacity to understand that decision, and to make it for themselves.

So, in the end, the way I believe things is this:

God created the world as a paradise, for man to live in.

Man chose to sin, and this resulting in man being expelled from paradise into a fallen world.

God chose to sacrifice Himself to redeem us, if we will only believe in Him.

I know what I choose to believe. I pray that everyone would make the same decision.

If god was perfect, why did he create gay people and transgenders?

lol, according to christians, gays are an abomination.

which mean God made a mistake.

whoops.

Once again, God did not create sin.

I am not going to pretend to have all of the answers about where sin came from. However, I trust in the Bible as far as the things that I wrote above.

Satan fell. He sinned. He tempted Eve, and then Adam to also sin. That introduced sin into the world.

Maybe, one day, long after this world had faded to dust, i will ask God where sin came from. Then again, perhaps it simply will not be all that important to me at that point,

except gays are born gay. well, there goes that. how can god create somebody who will always live in permanent sin?

by your logic, that means no matter what gays do, they will always go to hell when they die.

so either your god made a mistake, or he did it intentionally.

either way, he's messed up in the head.

No, because we all have urges and inclinations that could cause us to sin.

Having a desire does not mean that we must act upon it. Do you believe that it does?

What? He certainly did. He created Lucifer, and he even put the tree in the garden. He created temptation itself. Also as the scripture says:



God is advertised as All Good, All Knowing, and All Powerful, but he can only be 2 of the three *at best* because of how it is laid out in the Bible. Even if he made Lucifer as "good" and Lucifer turned evil on his own, God would have known this and had the capability to prevent this, but he chooses not too. He's either not all good because he let it happen anyway, not all knowing because he DIDN'T know lucifer would become evil, or not all powerful because he wanted to ensure lucifer stayed good but didn't have the capability.

seeing as i'm not religious, this conversation probably isn't going to get anywhere.

see, i support the LBGT community. i'm not religious, and i don't use religion in order to oppress other tax paying citizens.

they don't infringe on my rights.

they don't infringe on yours.

you're punishing somebody for being born gay. thats not sin, thats bigotry and hatred.

oh...nevermind, thats call catholic priest.

I feel a strong urge to kill people at times. I was made that way so I am free to act that way. Right?

The bible is clear that if you're gay then don't have sex with people of the same sex. They can chose to carry their cross or to throw it down.

We all have our own cross to bear because we are all tempted by different things. We all have our favorite sins that we have to struggle against.

God chose to let men love or hate him because he wanted a creation that could freely choose to love him. He didn't want robots programed to only do as programmed. He is very honest in saying so. Those who love him will go to heaven and those who don't will be destroyed much like the potter who makes 100 jars of clay. Many will break and be useless but its worth making them so that you get those few jars of clay that are useful and very much worth having.

Many of you have this silly notion that God is like Santa Claus and only here to serve you and give you what you want. This is NOT the case. He is our GOD and we are here to serve HIM. Of course Americans find it hard to accept that role in this day and age but regardless its true. God is not some elected official who is there to do what we tell him. He is our ruler. He rewards those who serve him and punishes those who don't whether he does so in this short life we have or punishes them eternally by sending them to oblivion is completely up to him. He is also the only one qualified to make that judgement because he does see it all.

We are all just unbaked clay pots and life is the fire that gives us a chance to be useful and treasured or to become broken trash. It's our choice to succeed or not.

If you want to poke a hole in the story then just mention how we have free will, but God is all knowing. This is impossible. I do not have free will if God knows what I'll be doing.

Sure you do. It's just that he already knows what you will choose. He is not forcing you to choose that way he just knows that you will.

I do however think he does things at a grander scale to sometimes change our mind to change what he see will happen.

It's not free will if he knows what you're doing...

You can do whatever you want. It's just that He knows what you're going to choose.

While it's a complex issue to wrap your head around - at the same time, it's not that tough.