DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Deflategate- Wells report finds Pats employees probably deflated balls vs. Colts

What I'm lost on is how he can be suspended without any real physical proof that he was involved? I've even heard that there isn't even any circumstantial proof that he was involved.

He probably didn't want to hand over his phone cause he had sexy photos of his wife on it.

I think Brady wins his appeal, and if he doesn't, it'll probably end up in court.

Whether he cheated or not, it's silly to drag a guys name through the mud and label him a cheater without any hard evidence.

The Patriots have a history of misconduct, but Tom Brady himself actually doesn't.

Just my opinion.

I also don't really believe this will tarnish his long term legacy. Maybe the Patriots "dynasty" that's been built over the last 13 years (since 2001) but Tom Brady himself and all of his accomplishments will still be a sure fire hall of famer, and I think in 20 years people will remember him for his four rings, MVP awards, pro-bowls, ect. Would it also shock anyone if the Patriots repeated next season? Wouldn't shock me.

If it didn't enhance his performance, then why would he have them do it? To degrade his performance? Because it would have no effect whatsoever? Just to do it? For the thrill of it?

For what it's worth, I agree with you that the Falcons got off extraordinarily easy. I think that theirs was, by far, the biggest violation. However, they did not have th track record the Patriots do as far as thins kind of stuff is concerned.

Besides, with the way things go for the Patriots, Brady will sit out the 1st 4 games, and Jimmy G will go undefeated, completing 100% of his passes in Brady's absence, and the Pats will then trade him for 4 1st round picks, and he will never complete another pass in the NFL as long as his career lasts.

Worse yet, it will probably be us he gets traded to.

Prisons are full of people who were put there based on circumstantial evidence.

I know it's the hip thing to do to hate on Goodell.. but really, the guy is in an almost impossible position.

He is asked to basically be judge, jury, and executioner on one high profile case after another.. he has no subpoena power to require Brady to turn over his phone, he has no threat of perjury to put somebody in jail to compel them to tell the truth, he has no formal discovery motions to acquire information, he has virtually NONE of the resources at his disposal that the criminal justice system employs to get to the truth... yet he is expected to come up with a decision based on proof and hard evidence and is held to a standard similar to that of the criminal justice system. Not to mention, the criminal justice system takes months, sometimes years, and in the NFL, decisions are expected in a matter of days or at the most, a couple weeks...

Look, I got my degree from Law and Order University so I know exactly what I'm talking about...

I would say it is a standardization thing, to make sure that everyone plays with the same ball. If you play in a softball tournament.. every team buys a specific brand/make of ball, and every ball is the same size, weight and color, with the same core. Major league baseball has the same rule, except ( I believe ) the balls are supplied by the league, but all balls must be exactly the same.

In football, because of an inflatable ball, there is a standardized PSI. Remember all the draft comments about not liking a particular QB because of "Hand size" ? The reason for the hand size argument is grip.

If a QB has a smaller hand.. a less inflated ball will help his grip. The same is true for a receiver. I think that is why the standardization has a range, to give a little "preference" for a QB, then the balls are inspected by the refs. The problem was, after the balls were inspected, the Patriots equipment guys removed their balls from quarantine, and took more air out of them. They could have inflated them to the league minimum in the first place. They had all week to do so.

The fact that they removed the balls after inspection, made it a conscious effort to lower the PSI, and circumvent the rules, supposedly at Brady's request. Better grip, in theory, equals better performance. A lessor chance of a "slip." It was this conscious effort that the league is punishing.

Did you sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night ??

And I don't think there is a person on the planet that believes an equipment guy would take it upon himself to change the PSI in Tom Brady's footballs without his knowledge and permission... That would be like the equipment guy going in and replacing LeBrons shoes before the game without telling him because the equipment guy thinks they would be better for him.... Ain't going to happen.

I can do you one better, I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.*

Earlier today I was watching NFL Network talking about Deflategate. On the subject of "Probably likely", and similar wording, they said that that is the language in the CBA agreement that constitutes as good as "fact" as the means toward making the a decision.

That's probably likely for the reason you describe in your post, the NFL does not have the "resources at his disposal that the criminal justice system employs to get to the truth". So "probably likely" has to work for them.

In fact, the panel on the show said that is why that particular verbiage is used in the Well's Report. Because it is the same verbiage used by the NFL in the CBA.


* Halfback, I saw your post after I wrote mine. At least the two of us are on some sort of a same page.

ddubia and the other guys who pointed out the reasoning/definition behind the funny wording in the report,

Thank you. Your explanations make sense, and I didn't know the CBA defines words/phrases like that for these situations. You learn something every day.

  


NFL

Eli Manning tried out underinflated footballs after hearing about Deflategate

Posted: 05/12/2015, 07:04am | Kevin O'Brien, Digital Editor at Sun Times Network


Eli Manning has admitted he tested out throwing some underinflated footballs out of curiosity after hearing about Deflategate. And he said there is definitely an extra grip with the deflated balls.


“Yeah, there is a difference,” he said. “A noticeable difference.”

But is there a significant advantage in throwing a deflated football? Manning wouldn’t quite agree.


“Well, there’s a difference. Whether there’s an advantage or not that’s all dependent on what a quarterback likes or what it’s like in cold weather or when it’s wet. There’s other factors into it, so I’m not sure.”

Manning, who’s brother Peyton gave a cryptic response to questions about Tom Brady over the weekend, has beaten Brady in two Super Bowls — 2008 and 2012.

Manning says he takes no pleasure in seeing Brady being suspended, but admitted he saw it coming when he learned from the Deflategate report that Brady had broken league rules.

He told the New York Daily News:


“Tom has been a friend of mine. I don’t like to see anyone get suspended. In no way am I glad to see this happen.

“I don’t like to see anybody get suspended, I don’t like to see anybody get in trouble, so in no way am I glad to see this happen.

“I think it is about integrity and you have to follow the rules. So if someone’s breaking rules I understand they’re going to get punished.”

He called the NFL’s punishment, which included a four game ban on Brady, “a pretty big statement.”


“If someone’s breaking the rules I understand you’re gonna get punished for it.

“Obviously it didn’t look good. I figured something like this may happen.”

Manning was keen to stress that he doesn’t think this punishment will tarnish Brady’s reputation.

http://national.suntimes.com/nfl/7/72/1100327/eli-manning-tried-underinflated-footballs

Which is why I don't really understand why each team provides and uses different footballs when on offense...

Seems like to minimize this they should just agree on a standard, like baseball, and everybody uses the same balls from scrimmage, kicking, etc..

I don't follow the Pats on Twitter but I understand they have changed their profile picture to Tom Brady's jersey, literally the back of Tom Brady's jersey to imply, "We've got your back"...

Since I posted that I became unsure if it really is the CBA wherein the funny wording shows up. I could have misunderstood the document. But it is, in fact, in one of their documents pertaining to investigations and things like these according to NFL Network.

I'm just not positive now that it is the CBA.

And on Facebook and another social media site.

He's the face of the franchise there, they'd stand beside him even if he beat his wife.

I heard a snippet of a Ted Wells interview this afternoon, and according to him there IS direct evidence against McNally. I wish I could have caught the entire interview...

link



As if this whole Deflategate/Wells Report nonsense wasn’t already absurd enough, last night a New England Patriots fan set up a Patriots GoFundMe page seeking to raise $1 million in order to pay the team’s fine.

And yes, it’s totally serious.

“We obviously know we won’t reach One Million Dollars,” the campaign description says. “However we do believe the fine is bulls**t and want to help anyway we can. So whatever is donated will be donated to the New England Patriots in help with the fine! As we venture with this, we will do frequent updates to show progression of this! If enough is made to make the travel, we will fly down there (on our own expenses) and deliver a check in person!”

Wait, there’s more.

“Mr. Kraft, Coach Belichick, and Tommy Boy, you have our love and support,” says somebody named Ricky Barringer, who pledged $10. “The NFL is out of their mind with this punishment. I know it’s not much, but I hope it helps. Let’s go win another Super Bowl and show the rest of the league what happens when you put the Pats in the corner. GO PATS!”

Wow, right?

Look, internet, you can think whatever you want about the Tom Brady suspension and the penalties assessed to the Patriots organization by Roger Goodell and company. Call it an outrage, call it just deserts. Either way, we all need to acknowledge that fans donating money to pay the team’s fine is batsh*t insane. Team owner Robert Kraft is worth $4.3 billion, the team is worth $2.6 billion, and Tom Brady is worth $120 million. And they got all that money from fans, who buy jerseys and tickets and overpriced beers.

It's too bad I didn't start the fund, because I would have kept every cent (well, I'd probably give it to charity, but I'd WANT to keep it).

What I understand.. the money saved by not paying Brady for 4 games.. coupled with the fine.. The Patriots come out 1 million dollars ahead.

Some punishment ... a 1 million dollar savings

I hope Jimmy Garappolo goes 4-0, and Brady loses his first game back..

That'd be fun..

Brady's first game back is vs the Colts. I hope he kicks their asses into another dimension.

Well I hope they at least win their first game..

You must love cheaters then. You must also love the "texting" GM.

Yeah, I'm a real ass-hole. We'd probably make good friends.

Most NE, Boston fans I have met seem to be so inflated by their teams success the last 15 years they let it go to their heads.

I was discussing (he was arguing), with a guy about Aaron Hernandez. This guy was adamant that it was a setup to give NE a black eye. Never mind the guilty verdict rolling across the bottom of the screen.

I still have no idea where some of you think it was no big deal. Or think that this was a minor rule to break so no big deal. Or don't think there is proof.

- He cheated, so he gets a 4 game suspension. Not only that but he did not assist the investigation as he is required (as I understand it).
- The proof is the txt messaging way back before the season started and the guy calling himself the deflator and joking about going to ESPN - and from memory there was a txt about getting more freebies from Brady.
- It's real simple - after those txt messages the onus is on Brady 100% to prove his innocence. The investigator even said - tell us whats on your phone and we'll take your word for it .... and nada. If the phone could exonerate him then he would have done it.
- Finally to the point that its a minor rule and no big deal .... so anyone that thinks that is cool with any player deciding which rule is important and breaking the minor ones if thats how they feel.

It's a 4 game suspension. It's just about right as I am concerned. Question I asked Eo before and never got a response - is playing with deflated balls a bigger game day advantage or is having an idiot GM txt the coaches? Which is premeditated to try and manufacture a real competitive advantage.

Brady is still one of the best ever - but if the PSI made such little difference - why the fk do you go to these lengths that they did to deflate the balls. . . . That's a stack of horse sh*t. Even his friend Eli Manning tried out balls of deflated PSI and basically said "yes its very obvious" ... so the idea Brady knew nothing again is a stack of Horse sh*t.

AND finally - just like Sean Peyton got hammered and banned for a year because boutygate happened on his watch. . . . the Pats and the coach are on the line for exactly the same reason.

It's as black and white as could be.

I also think this is clearly an example of getting punished more harshly for the coverup than the original infraction..

And the fact that New England has had multiple related infractions of cheating.

I love the punishment handed down. I got my fingers crossed if any appeals are filed, they're rejected. As great as Brady is, he deserves his suspension.

I thought it deserved a year long suspension.

If the appeals are denied.. The lawsuits will likely follow..

This could be the thing that ends up pushing Goodell out as Commish..

Owners love him when he makes them money and leaves them be.. And he just went after his former best buddy..

Possibly the fact that they did it in the AFC Title Game had something to do with it..

I would liken it to the idea that they were going to possibly fine people for tampering at the start of this Free Agency period..

Multiple teams obviously did it.. But they would of most likely just picked the biggest infraction (Sup Miami) and made an example of them.. Is it fair? No. But that's usually the way those kinds of things work..

You add in NEs history of rule breaking, and their attitude towards getting caught, and I honestly think they got off kind of light..

[quote=ThatGuy][/quote]

All I know is that somehow deflating the footballs, that only Brady was using, had caused the Colts to be unable to score more than 7 points.

There you have it--Proof--deflating the ball gains an unfair advantage.

I could agree with the punishments of Brady and the Pats if they, somehow, tampered with the Colts gameballs causing their otherwise powerhouse offense to suck to the tune of 7 points. That would be cheating.

I think what happened is Belichick took a page from the Browns defensive playbook in how to attack the Colts and it worked for them as well.

If deflating the balls resulted in Brady being able to score an extra 3 TDs, 21 points, then take away those 21 points it was still a blow-out in a Championship Game. Hell, and I do mean hell, take away 37 of the Pats points and they still win.

Does deflating the football result in 37 points? Now, I don't care who you are, that there there is an advantage right there.

It's all a bunch of balogna to me.

There are rules, and the Pats/Brady purposely violated the rules, and Brady refused to cooperate with the investigators, and tried to block the investigation.

This is a matter of the cover-up being worse than the crime. Players cannot flaunt the rules, and they cannot just refuse to cooperate when caught. That is why Brady, and the Patriots, got hammered.

So.. cheating only matters if the game is close?

Boston fans are inflated!

ddub, the texts about deflating footballs go back a ways, do you think the Colt's game is the only game it occurred? Do you think this YEAR is the first time it occurred?

So this game wasn't that close, how many close games did they have this year that were close?

The Pats got home field throughout the playoffs by virtue of a tie-breaker with the Broncos and one game over the Steelers and Colts... any single game they won this year because they had 1 less fumble, 1 less errant pass, changes the whole complexion of the playoffs.

Whether you NEEDED to cheat to win is irrelevant... it's like if your kid cheats on a test and still gets a D... is it not cheating?

To me deflategate is a breaking of the rules like Slaughter did when he painted his shoes orange for the '89 game vs the Bears. He broke the rules? Yes. Did it give him an unfair advantage? I dunno, he did score a 97 yard TD in those shoes.

To me it's about the same.

No one will agree with me and I'm ok with that. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything. I just don't see it as that big of a deal.

Of course if you ask current or past players, coaches or FO personnel they're going to talk about the "integrity of the the game". But when they say that they already know that everyone cheats as much as they feel they can get away with.

Ever hear players talk about what goes on at the bottom of the pile? They laugh when they describe the gouging, twisting, pinching, eye poking, etc. We laugh right along with them. None of that is against the rules? Sure it is. But it's funny 'cause everybody does it. And nobody cries about it.

Sticky for WRs hands, vaseline on helmets, sewing jerseys to make them tighter thus harder to grab, etc, etc. I remember one old-time player talking about taking the screws out of his helmet, sharpening the ends and then putting them back on from the inside so when an opposing player slapped his helmet he was met with spikes cutting his hands--put a stop to that slapping crap.

The old days they did some really bad cheating to gain an advantage. These days it's much less severe, so far as we know, but still they do whatever they think they can get away with. We don't hear about it because the typical first stage is a warning. So they quit that and look for some other way.

It's a game of inches. And when inches matter you do what you can to gain an advantage. I belive that's the way it is and the way it plays out in reality.

I think Joe Namath said it best, "I don't see the big deal."

I also think some of the zeal in wanting Brady punished severely, I've heard at least one guy say a year long suspension, is because it is Brady and the Pats. Everybody love a winner. But once they've won "too much" then folks want to see them broken down. Sick of seeing the Pats in the Superbowl so often? Hope for them to get hammered.

Read DC's post above yours. I think that he puts it all into a really good perspective.