DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Hoyer/McCown Debate and Scheme Fit/Cohesion

You can't prove someone "wrong" with speculation based on opinions found from half of a story..

J/C

Why does every thread I open up have to turn into some sort of a urination contest?

As far as Hoyer/McCown go, I was probably one of Brian's biggest fan, not only because of the Browns, but because I had followed his game since high school.

The problem is, for a multitude of reasons (e.g. texts from our GM), the relationship between Brian and the FO probably became toxic and a contract extension just wasn't in the cards.

We now have McCown, which means that we're all really hoping that Johnny can turn it around since McCown's greater body of work shows that we probably won't go anywhere with him.

So here's hoping that Johnny somehow finds a way to turn it around, at least beat McCown out, and be the starter by September.

The reason they didn't want Hoyer back was because Manziel couldn't beat him out?

Do you understand how ridiculous that sounds?

Hoyer is a 30 year old backup with a below average NFL arm whose play did nothing but regress as the season wore on last year.

You also forget, Hoyer looked god awful last year in the preseason, that QB battle could have seriously gone either way because of how bad both QB's actually looked.

McCown was signed because he was the best looking option on the free agent market. He also agreed to be a mentor and backup to Manziel should he lose the training camp battle, something Hoyer was being a diva about. He wanted more money than he was worth and he wanted a guarantee he was going to get a fair chance at the starting QB job.

Why would you pay a 30 year old backup QB, with a below average NFL arm, who wasn't able to hold up over the course of the season regular starter money?

I'm not endorsing McCown, I liked Hoyer....

but again....

Why does half of this board act like Hoyer was an irreplaceable asset?

If this were true (which I don't believe it is) why would that be a bad thing?

J/C

I think I've figured out the method to the madness for all the people being harsh on McCown/Manziel. You're actually trying to give them "bulletin board" material and help motivate them to success, right?

I understand the doubts with our track record with QBs about all the candidates, but can we all try to support the guys who are here now?

I'm not saying to change your opinions, but I think this argument has been beaten into the ground. I admit I'm as guilty as anyone in keeping the argument going. But now, We have who we have, and we should try to support them.

If we had better options.. We wouldn't have to support them!

...wait..

I don't have a shovel big enough for all the crap speculation you spewed in that post..

So the way Hoyer played at the end of last season had zero to do with him not being here now?

It has nothing to do with the fact that he threw 8 INT's in 4 games, struggled with accuracy and mechanics down the stretch, lead 1 TD drive in 29 possessions, and was completely ineffective against any team resembling a quality defense. (Jacksonville, Houston, Buffalo and Indianapolis). Then to top it all off he didn't want to take any of the blame for his poor play, and was kind of a diva about being a backup/mentor to Manziel.

30 year old Hoyer with his below average arm was shipped out of town cause Farmer and Haslam didn't think Manziel could beat him out?

Interesting.

I understand the logic.

Brian Hoyer was gold compared to the turds we've been given since the 2007 version of Derek Anderson.

Keep in mind, our running game was one of the best in the NFL at one time, and our defense generated 21 interceptions and often kept the score manageable for the offense. We also beat the Saints, Titans, Bucs, Raiders and Falcons. Not exactly top notch competition. You'll notice in the games where our running game was shut down (Jacksonville, Houston, Buffalo and Indianapolis) Brian Hoyer was completely ineffective.

I'm not calling Hoyer a turd, but he's a 30 year old backup with an average arm.

He had some very nice moments last year, but was he worth paying starter money too and building around? Probably not. He proved he couldn't hold up over the course of an entire season. His accuracy and mechanics broke down as the season progressed.

If Hoyer were a little younger, and had a slightly stronger arm, then he may have been worth committing to.

Just my opinion.

My thing is..

I believe we can be successful, and win games this year with McCown as the starter..

He only has to do enough, and with the Veteran WRs we have, the stable of young RBs, and the defense were going to field, I think that is easily acceptable to predict..

However..

The idea of "sink or swim" with Manziel is not a terrible one..

While I'd love a true QB competition, I'd probably rather prefer they picked a guy, and gave him all the reps he needed..

I don't know how you know that for sure. I don't think I read anything that wasn't pure speculation that even says that.

I mean, I read also that they agreed to talk later, what you and I can't/don't know for sure (unless you got some insider info) is if that other conversation took place or not. Or was it that Hoyer said he wanted X dollars and the Browns said, we aren't in the same ballpark so the talk never happened.

To my knowledge, nobody knows what the numbers offered to Hoyer were or if any number was bantered about seriously.

Most of this stuff is speculation and when people state it as fact, they are fooling themselves... Just sayin!

In what way? How can you possibly say that what he said was a lie?

The way it appears to me is this:

Brian Hoyer and Josh McCown both had a couple of potential suitors. The Browns had an idea of what Hoyer would bring to the team, and they had an idea of what he would demand in salary. The Browns chose to go in a different direction, and signed McCown instead.

Hoyer then took his other offer, and signed with Houston.

Josh McCown signs with Browns: Feb 27, 2015 (Door closed)
Bills trade for Matt Cassell: March 4, 2015 (Door Closed)
Ryan Mallett signs with Houston: March 9, 2015 (Door only slightly ajar)
Brian Hoyer signs with Houston: March 11,2015
Jets trade for Ryan Fitzpatrick: March 12, 2015 (who knows how serious they were about Hoyer)

So, at best, if Hoyer wanted to have any chance at starting, he was down to the Texans .... and maybe the Jets once the doors closed in Cleveland and Buffalo.

As far as what the Browns offered Hoyer, I remember reading reports that they had not made an offer to Hoyer. It sure seems to me as if the Browns had decided, for whatever reason, that they were ready to move on from Hoyer. There were also reports that Hoyer wanted to be "paid as the starter", and the Dalton contract was used as a neighborhood he was looking to move into. However, all of that is just what was reported.

To say that any of us knows enough to do anything more than opine what happened between the Browns and Hoyer is kind of ridiculous. To say that someone else, who was putting the pieces together is lying is rather disingenuous. (and really uncalled for)

The manners on this board are definitely gong downhill.

I hate to say this but I just spent a hour of my time looking on the internet where everything is true? LOL But long story short I can't find anything that says the Browns ever made an offer to Hoyer after the season ended, maybe you can I couldn't.

Oh I do that but I wait for the season to get ready to start before I do, if thats OK?

Its like your brother you pick on beat on but let some one else do it and your all over them. Right now I'm picking on my brother because he is really kind of stupid..............

I don't recall anything solid, just remember Farmer saying "the ball is in his court" which to me boils down to "we made him a contract offer but Hoyer and his agent feel he's worth more" ordeal.

I respect the fact that you have a well thought out opinion.

I just disagree with some of it.

As far as Johnny Manziel being a Jimmy Haslam pick, that I fully agree with as multiple reports from last year (pre & post draft) "hint" at it being true. Ray Farmer wanted Derek Carr last year, not Johnny Manziel. The front office clearly didn't do enough homework on Manziel seeing as his off field issues were much worse than what everyone originally believed.

What I disagree with is that Hoyer was kicked to the curb because he's a "winner" and the front office wanted less competition for Manziel in camp/preseason.

Last year in the 2014 training camp and preseason, neither quarterback looked distinctively better than the other. The only reason Hoyer won the job is because Manziel dicked around and didn't put enough focus or preparation into it. Both QB's looked bad, and honestly the competition could have gone either way. Why not kick Hoyer to the curb then and just ride it out with Manziel? At this point Hoyer had not given the front office or coaching staff a reason to keep him (cause he looked like garbage in the preseason). So if their was this crazy dislike for him, why not just dump him then???

As previously mentioned.

Hoyer had some nice moments in 2014, I don't think anybody is going to argue with that, but the FACT is that he wore down and regressed as the season went on.

His mechanics suffered, his accuracy suffered and his numbers ultimately suffered. Was this all because the front office didn't support him? And because Manziel was waiting in the wings? Come on....

Brian Hoyer (along with a very strong running game and defense) helped us beat the Saints, Titans, Bucs, Raiders and Falcons (all bad teams). Wins over the Steelers and Bengals were fantastic, but go back and check out the stats, both wins were aided greatly by our strong running game and strong defense. Whenever the guy was faced with a tough defense (Jags, Texans, Bills, Colts and even the Panthers) he was virtually ineffective, proving he doesn't have the arm talent or moxie to carry a team. On top of it all, he was a diva to the media after his poor performances.

Why pay a 30 year old career backup (with a below average arm) starter money when he just PROVED that he cannot carry the torch for an entire season, nor can he be effective against strong defenses?

Answer me that.

I agree. I do know that Hoyer was quoted as saying that he and Farmer agreed to meet sometime in the next 2 weeks between that time and the time they agreed to speak the Browns signed McCown, unless someone made the story up including the quote from Hoyer.

But no nobody knows what the dollars were. My common sense tells me that what Hoyer wanted was south of what they actually shelled out for McCown because of the 2 QB's McCowns deal is the better deal, but still I can choose to put blinders on and pretend the story that was made up long ago is still true. That being that Hoyer was asking for a huge contract, which for obvious reason I don't believe is true nor was it ever true no matter the number of times it was repeated.

Tab likes to say the Browns made an offer, even if it is so who knows what the offer was and Hoyer made a pretty fair deal with Houston I see no reason why if both player and team under the parameters that I am aware of that a deal couldn't have been made with Hoyer for what probably would have included a hometown discount. But still the story persists that somehow Hoyer is the villan when all the evidence says that just isn't so, in fact the evidence says Farmer wanted Hoyer gone.

But to hear posters repeat a lie is just wrong, they don't know for dead certain yet in the next breath they tell you that Hoyer wanted to much. Which is it and how is it fair to blame Hoyer for contract talks, when in reality it looks like Farmer walked away not Hoyer. Somehow folks think by saying this or casting a bad light on Hoyer it makes what the FO did OK. And it wasn't.

Two things,

• 1) I could give a crap less to know the dates, times, exact locations or the weather on the day of the week regarding when and where things occurred.

And that is for two reasons. One is that I was alive and paying attention all through that time span and two, you've posted the order in which things happened so many times that by now I'm sure we've all got it memorized, (those of us who actually read your posts).

• 2) The biggest reason the QB situation is "exactly" where you said it would be months ago is because of the obvious lack of available QBs from which the FO had access. The minute the season was over we all knew, we all knew, we all knew, that there were no quality FA QBs availabe and we all knew, we all knew, we all knew, that there was only 2 or 3 decent QBs available in the draft.

So, we all knew, we all knew, we all knew, that acquiring a quality QB in the off-season was all but impossible without trading away this years draft and maybe part of next year's for one of the two QBs who were regarded as... maybe franchise QBs. So we all knew, we all knew, we all knew, that it wasn't likely to happen.

From that point of view it was pretty dang obvious to everyone, obvious to everyone, obvious to everyone, that we weren't going to be able to upgrade our QB situation by much if at all.

The FO did everything they could do other than re-signing Hoyer who saw himself as sitting in the catbird seat and to some extent I deem that as his downfall in regards to re-signing with the Browns. There are many versions however.

And 3rd, I know I said two things but people are allowed to change their minds on things, (consider that a revelation if you accept the possibility), so I will include a third thing here. Because I can.

• 3) Some of the things you come up with to defend your position seem to be a product of much internal dialog looking for obscure possibilities to explain your original curious viewpoints. Your latest creation is "fake panic", yeah, fake panic, that's the ticket.

More amazing yet, is that as new facts enter the fray you come up with even more incongruous ideas until you create a bizarre sandwich of such unbelievable ingredients that no one but yourself is able to tolerate even a little bite without it leaving a bad taste in the mouth.

Nevertheless, keep being you mac. Don't change too much. Some of us have been on this board going way back. I'd miss you if you changed or were gone. I've come to affectionately see you a little like Dr. Emmett Brown without the scientific accuracy. Maybe more like his obtuse brother if he has one.

Bla Bla Bla...Hoyer was never going to resign with the Brown's and he made that decision last year while he was still playing. Believe it or not he decided if Manziel was retained by the Brown's he'd be gone. IMO Hoyer wasn't a team player to expect his backup, a 1st rd draft pick to be released his first year.

And this was the issue facing the Browns. Starter money for eesentially a backup? I don't think that's wise. Having said that, I do not know (does anybody?) what the offer to Hoyer was in dollar terms...

There is no answer for that. If there is I'd sure like to hear it.

Nobody on here knows anything.

And yet countless arguments based on speculation continue..

The Brown's had no other viable option for QB. They had to get a vet QB in FA ...Hoyer wasn't going to resign no matter what the Brown's offered.

As long as you know you're right.

That's all that matters. Right?

LOL it was Hoyer decision not to resign with the Brown's. The FO didn't kick him to the curb he wanted out. Who wouldn't?

LOL Ain't that the truth

I'm still waiting to read one....




I feel like my arguments have been pretty logical....

Go back and read them.

Mac and the other Hoyer supporters seem to keep over looking them I guess?

Hoyer and his starting record look much better than Josh McCown.

You just have to be willing to weigh circumstance into the equation and I think Ray Farmer had to have done that when McCown was signed.

Hoyer played on a much stronger team (offensive line, run game and opportunistic defense) to go along with playing a fairly soft schedule (Saints, Titans, Bucs, Raiders and Falcons).

The Bucs were a bad team, with a bad offensive line and a bad defense. They also didn't have an offensive coordinator.

I'm not endorsing McCown (or Manziel), nor am I trying to bash Brian Hoyer.

I'm just trying to be logical.

When comparing the two, circumstance can't be ignored if you're merely looking at records.

If winning is everything to the story of QB's, the logical answer would have been to have signed Vince Young and Tim Tebow. Just sayin'

I like the idea of competition for all positions except the QB position. I think QB competitions are detrimental to the team. We've seen this movie play out before. It never ends well.

With a QB you need to pick a starter, let him get the reps, and support him. Would Hoyer beat out Manziel in a competition this year? Perhaps. Does that mean the team thinks he is a better long-term prospect than Manziel? Obviously not. If they want Manziel to be the guy, keeping Hoyer around would likely stunt his growth. There would be a divide in the locker room and Hoyer, who believes he should be the starter, likely would be reluctant to bring Manziel along. Perhaps the FO felt that with Hoyer the team is destined for 8-8 mediocrity at best. Perhaps they feel that Manziel has an upside that is better than that. Even if Hoyer were to beat out Manziel in camp, it would only delay the inevitable...Hoyer will eventually be replaced with someone else ... Manziel or another guy ... why continue to stunt the growth of Manziel and the team and keep Hoyer around.

For the record, I wanted to bring Hoyer back. But I can see the other side of it as well. If the team has stacked the deck so that Manziel will be the starter, then I don't see anything wrong with that. QB competitions are idiotic at best.

Just for the sale of debate ..... what was Hoyer's record as a starter before he came to the Browns?