DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Hoyer/McCown Debate and Scheme Fit/Cohesion

Maybe Hoyer wanted to be the starter and wanted that guaranteed?

Does anyone else actually believe that Haslam/Farmer disliked Hoyer so much that they purposely let him walk just so Johnny had an easier path to the starting quarterback job?

It had absolutely nothing to do with Hoyer wanting more money than he was worth, or the fact that his play broke down and was terrible at the end of the season? Or that he's 30 years old and has a below average arm and PROVED he couldn't carry the full load of an entire season?

They didn't re-sign him cause they wanted Manziel on the field. That's it?

I know Haslam has an ego, so I won't say it's not possible, but I watched Hoyer last season and I don't think he's more than average at best, so I don't understand the attachment to the guy.

Nothing wrong with believing something and having another thought simply state why. I so grow tired of folks just aping what they read and not checking their facts. Theory should be born from fact and the truth. I told Mac last week myself that his theory that Thomas would be asking to get out after this season was something he made up and he needed to take the high ground. Much of what he has said is however true. Posters often put just enough truth in to not be a total lie, but their post is peppered with them.

I try my best to speak the truth and to think for myself, I respect that in all posters but the ones that just run around saying lies really piss me off. This all started with me saying that the LIE that Hoyer was asking for to much money was just that a lie. I think all the FACTS point to that being a lie. Oh Pitt tried to slide an obvious piece in from the PD but it was clearly opinion.



Why did I have to be the bad guy then? Shouldn't people check the facts and speak the truth, and you know what this isn't the 1st time I did it on this very topic. I think its important because the conversation went off course at some point, but it started with me saying it was a lie that Hoyer was asking for to much money even now after the truth is revealed the story shifts but it still has the its all Hoyers fault tone, amazing comes to mind.....



I think you have to skip over some things to get to that conclusion. Hoyer wanted a chance to start and he wanted to be sure he could get along with the Browns new OC. There were no dollars on the table this winter, last summer the Browns did put an offer in front of Hoyer which he rejected. Where did you get the 5 million figure from?



No I think Hoyer really pissed Farmer off when he made the public comments he did about the texting, and I think it was clear as can be that the texts were about Hoyer and they weren't supportive of Hoyer, but thats my opinion born from what little is known. But everything that is available says that is so. again I have consistently said that Hoyer went unsupported by the organization I think the facts bear that out. I also think Hoyer was willing to look past the lack of support from the FO if he could count on the coaches to remain in his corner.

But I concur they didn't move on from Hoyer to lesson the competition for JF but that is the net result. They let Hoyer walk as I said because he pissed Farmer off going public with his concerns about why Shanny left and wanting to know the content of the text. I wonder if he asked Pet about it when they talked? I think the Browns feared Hoyer knew or would find out what the nature of the texts were and thought when he did find out he would walk away. The lack of support that I suspected going way back was real and it was the undoing of bringing Hoyer back. But Hoyer has no fault in this, this dilemma was caused by Farmer and his texting, that seems clear at this point.

Look at kelso's post that has been proven a lie yet there it is..

I will say this to you as well forge ahead I give. There was NO offer Tab other then last summer. Why is that so hard to get your arms around. It was clearly stated from multiple sources NO Dollars were laid on any table...

There was NO offer if there were anyone please show me.....

Hoyer had no fault in what exactly?

He contributed plenty to why he's not a Brown, which largely included his play on the field.

If you're saying he had no fault in the texting scandal, I agree. He was likely the subject of some unflattering texts.

There's no other situation I can see that he had no role in.

Absolute statements that Hoyer is not at fault are misleading. If you're not careful, others will ape that.

You are wasting your time on this. The group as usual is not going to change their minds on this. They probably read it on this forum, so it must be true.

To answer your first question, yes they did. He is not the first new gm to not keep someone because they were not "his guy". Some new gm's and coaches want their guys and get rid of the previous regimes players, good or bad. I never understood why they do this, it just makes building a team harder.

Well if your going to ape something at least ape the truth, you may want to try it.

how come the pro-hoyer crowd keeps ignoring the part where the browns reached out to re-sign him but the Hoyer camp delayed the process?

Didn't anyone who believes Hoyer was a great Qb who would've taken us the distance and etc, if you wasn't watching his bad play on Sundays, then surely you listened to his interviews.

He looked, and talked, like a man who was broken down and depressed. Too much load and pressure which given his play and etc, I think there's plenty of evidence to support it. Watch his post game presser after we played Atlanta, which was a game we ended up winning. That was a man with zero confidence in himself.

All JMO

Ok



They thought that the lines of communications where open Hoyer had his meeting with Pet and Flip, but broke off with Farmer.



Yeah like the wife does, was it because Hoyer asked to many questions about the nature of the texts?



Could be I suppose, but thats why Hoyer wanted a meeting.



We KNOW that money wasn't discussed according to everything we know, to state otherwise is to LIE.



Well if we can believe what Pet says them the competition thing is highly likely. NOT

I think Hoyer may have (rightly so) had some serious talk with Pet about the texting and from there the feeling was that Hoyer would rather move on. That is the the one that looks like a duck quacks like a duck is likely as all hell to be the duck. And the fault that lies with the texting goes to Hoyer he forced Farmer to text. So we have our answer.




I didn't claim anything I said that what was of importance to Hoyer was that he be afforded the opportunity to play. I might add he also said he was open to earning the position. But that is more like fact then I said it, I actually aped it...lol


I'm not sure what the question is here to be truthful.



Actually it was said to be both, but it has been narrowed down further to be about Hoyer and it was very unsupportive. But imagine this Farmer texts during a game about what a Bum Hoyer is. The Sunday night to Sunday mourning Farmer was all in with Hoyer showing his support, now how likely is that. And that Tab goes right to what I said from way back in training camp last year. Again I repeat myself the FO never supported Hoyer, why I don't know but it seems like Farmer did all he could to sabotage Hoyer.

I hate saying this I really do because it truly is weak but how can anyone think otherwise, everything that is publicly known says Farmer was the cause of the riff between Hoyer and the organization. We know Hoyer far better then we do Farmer do you really think he is this guy with this huge ego and contrast that against what you know about Farmer with an open mind. Then ask yourself honestly what caused this. Oh sure the we don't know answer is a good cover but Farmer is your man we both know it don't we?

Farmer doesn't text about Hoyer in game, Hoyer has no concerns about support within the organization he and the Browns live happily ever after. But when a new OC is introduced Hoyers camp says lets hold up and see if Hoyer and Flap can work together. Which is actually beneficial to all parties. But why wouldn't Hoyer ask to speak with the new OC after all the guy can't have success knowing the FO has already done what they could to sabotage him. No Tab this is the smoking gun there is no IMO way to see it.
I know you, you'll take these guys back thru thick and thin then when there gone you'll say you knew all along........

Interesting debate but there are two problems, inherent in it ( as it is with al human conclusions).

when making a decision or a in this case a determination:

1) we can never be sure we have all the facts... painfully obvious that is true here, as speculation and innuendo seems to rule.

2) We can never be sure we are interpreting the data correctly... here we see two sides reading the same reports and yet coming to two diametrically opposed positions.


Both sides have valid points, I wish I knew the absolute truth but I do not... One thing I do know however to call those that disagree with you a liar or an ape lessens your argument

I'll ask again ... Hoyer had no fault in what exactly? What were you referring to there?

And what have I said that was a lie?

I absolutely agree, I choose to believe that Hoyer having shown he could play could return to form. But something had him rattled.

Could have been from the return of Gordon and Cameron and their poor route running.

Could have been from the lack of support from the FO.

Could have been from working his tail off thru the off season rehabbing then sliding straight into the season with no rest.

Could have been from the riggers of the season itself.

It likely was all of the above and I think he simply burned out from all of it.

The real question is do you think he is the type of player that will fold or do you think he is the type of player that will re charge his battery learn from all the things that happen last year regroup and come back better having had the experience?

I think its important to remember that this was all new to Hoyer he had seen all these things but had never really experience them for himself. I think he has the make up of a guy that will bounce back and be better.

I live when I can, and sleep when I can.

The link from earlier on this thread says that the Browns reached out to Hoyer's agent with the idea of resigning him, a "month ago", (on March 20, which would have meant mid-February)but that Hoyer's camp wanted to wait.

It's pretty clear.

yeah ... I know.

I think you should go back and re read what I wrote, and instead of looking for what you want it to say read what its says in the context it is presented in.

Here is a hint for you Hoyer didn't force Farmer to text. He was the victim. Yet he is to blame for not getting a deal done. Its really simple.

Yeah they wanted to allow Hoyer the chance to meet with Pet and Flip and finally Farmer but the meeting with Farmer never happened.

I can actually understand why Hoyer wanted a meeting i think it was important that the air be cleared about the texts and where Hoyer stood with the FO and coaching staff. At the point when they said wait the Browns didn't even have an OC Hoyer wanted to be certain he could work with Flip, because he knew he wasn't going to get support from Farmer if the context of the texts were true. But that part is conveinently left out. I wonder why.

Did you see where it said that Hoyer's camp wanted to wait?

Hoyer's gone.

What exactly is the point of this discussion?

Correct it's really that simple. Hoyer didn't want a deal, he wanted out. Get over it. Geeez..

Who were the QBs being mentioned? Were they 3rd-4th-5th rounders that a desperate group of fans were hoping against hope could be "developed"?

Knowing all the QBs coming out do you really think there were any quality guys who came from a system that required them to read defenses/coverages? Or did you think most of them, if not all, were long-shot projects who wouldn't have made a bit of difference for the team.

Yes mac, everyone knew that other than the top 2 QBs and maybe one other project was all their was in the draft.



And just WHO did they "expect" the Browns to acquire that would upgrade our QB position? There was no one available in either the draft or FA who would have been any kind of upgrade. You know that, I know that and it was, or should have been, obvious to the talking heads who "expected" the Browns management to upgrade our QB position.

There simply was not any QBs available. To borrow a term from tabber, those QBs were Unicorns. No such animal existed.



Well then, isn't it obvious to everyone now? Maybe I'm the only genus to have seen it coming. Kinda sounds like one of your claims.




You say that out of one side of your mouth while out of the other you chronologically list the Browns attempts to get Bradford on the team. Does trying to get Bradford sound like avoiding competition for Johnny?

Or did I get you right when you described the possibility of a "fake panic" to throw people off regarding their "true" agenda that they had no intention of pursuing Bradford and that was just to throw us all off track? Like they have time and effort to spare for such a bizarre endeavour.

Had Bradford come here it would have blown apart your insistence that they wanted no competition for Johnny. But then to protect your own theory you came up with the "fake panic" angle. You'd have made a good lawyer but not a good BSer.





If you read my quote correctly I said they did everything they could other than resigning Hoyer. It's right there. You read it, you quoted it and then re-interpreted it so you could call it BS.

Suggestion, (you don't have to do this as you rarely have before), read what someone says before kicking your mind in gear to form a response.



Refused? Refused?! He REFUSED to meet? Hoyer and his agent tried to work a deal but Farmer REFUSED to meet with them? I don't read that anywhere is what BTTB posted.

Most of the questions I've asked here I've asked without really requiring an answer because it's pointless. But I would really like you to explain where you get the idea that Farmer "REFUSED" to meet with Hoyer and his agent. I would like you to explain this since I believe it gets to the crux of your reading between the lines as you develop your theories.



To answer your question, I don't know.

You see mac, I don't fear my manhood is in question simply because I don't have the answer for everything.

That, I think is a much healthier perspective than making things up in an panic attempt, (not a fake panic attempt), to cover a lack of knowing.

It's ok to not know. It's much better than thinking you know when you don't. Especially when someone is trying to force you to make comparisons of the known vs the unknown.

Regardless who starts at QB we will have a different QB this year. Let that sink in a moment because IT AIN'T GONNA BE HOYER. Once you realize THAT you can move onto developing new conspiracy theories on other, more pertinent subjects. Think how refreshing that will be. Out with the old, in with the new.

We will also have a different OS. By saying OS I mean Offensive Scheme. I like to call it OS because it's computer talk for Operating System. I like it because when talking about a new OS, (computer or football), there's a period of time before we catch on and become proficient at it.

Have you ever used a computer? lol Have you ever changed an OS like from any previous OS before XP to XP? That takes some getting used to the way things work. Have you changed from XP to Win7. Big difference.

That's what I'm saying. The offense will be a big difference. I know, I know, Flip says he's going to keep a lot of it the same as the last system to help make it easier to transition. But the very fact that he's doing that to help explains that it's not easy to change from one OS to another.

So how could I, or anyone, even you, yes, even you, how could even you predict how our new unknown OS with different QBs in charge is going to compare with what we already know about last seasons' offense? Really. No, I mean, really.

So now that you've come to me for an education and I graciously responded by giving you some, how will you now proceed in your future endeavors on the board? Could you possibly avoid all the Hoyer conspiracy theories and move on? Or will we be hearing this same skipping record throughout the season? Will you, going forward, rely on facts to form your opinions or will you continue to use your misreading-between-the-lines to develop crazy-assed dogmas?


We're all campers. There are three types of campers, (actually four but the fourth kind is a rare breed). Which camp are you in? Or do you have a camp of your own?

• Camp Optimistic. There's those who are in the camp of being optimistic that even with all the unknowns they believe the team will overcome the adversity of it, figure it all out and be fine. They love the FO and the coaches and see pretty much good things for the immediate future and going forward. This is a pretty good place to be if you're a follow-the-ball fan enjoying the Browns seasons as they come. Not to be confused with ignorant bliss but it's pretty close to that.

• Camp Watch & Learn. I'm usually in this camp. It makes for an enjoyable fan/team relationship. Instead of loving or hating everything the team does or doesn't do those of us who are in this camp try to non-judgmentally understand what the FO and coaches are trying to accomplish and try to understand the manner in which they are operating. Those of us in this camp are not public second-guessers. We'd rather try to understand the teams motives rather than totally buying into or finding fault with every action. Be it who we draft, who we don't, who we sign, who we play, who we sit, who we cut, who we let walk in FA or any of the general team activities we like to believe the FO and coaches are doing it for the good of the team and we like to try and understand the thinking and reasoning behind their actions. That doesn't mean we agree with everything they do, but we don't usually publicly "act out" our disagreements in a complaining, judgmental manner. Some of us in this camp understand that the way to get players to do their best is to buy-into what the team is selling and we position ourselves to buy-into that to the degree that being a fan is enjoyable ride through the season, learning along the way, rather than a miserable experience feeling like we're being dragged through a pit of despair from which viewpoint we can learn nothing.

• Camp Incompetent Non-Thinking Bastards. This doesn't mean those who are in the camp are incompetent non-thinking bastards, it means instead that those in this camp see the Owner, the FO, the coaching and those in the first two camps as such. Though rarely talking about actual football they instead talk almost exclusively about team actions and decisions. Every team action is viewed as most likely a bad one and these campers know better what they should have been done. These camp members believe in their heart of hearts that they know the most critical team needs and know how to approach and solve them. They read a couple of scouting reports on the draft and think they know who to draft and who to pass on. After the draft they are certain the team made major mistakes in the positions drafted and the specific players the team selected. They adamantly pound the desk explaining how the FO has no clue. The same applies to the FOs selection, or non-selections in FA. They are adamant in that they refuse to allow new, factual information to sway their opinions. Instead they stick to their original opinion due to a perceived fear of seeming that they may have been wrong in their first assessment which is, in their minds, a display of a lack of knowledge or a generally weak mind. They are miserable throughout the season and are the ones most likely to bitch and complain watching the game on TV bring the same misery to anyone viewing with them. These are the ones who boo the team on the field when at attendance defending that by claiming they paid for the right to boo. (And here I thought buying a ticket means one paid for the right to be in attendance at a game to enjoy the experience of seeing their team live. I thought too that it pays for the privilege to cheer and encourage their team's players toward a victory rather than trying to bring them down by a blatant show of disapproval. I guess I'm really stupid when it comes to why one would attend a game). The description of Camp Incompetent Bastards is longer than the others mainly because it has the most members and it's a complex camp made up of those who makes the loudest noise, having the most to say about every team action. In fact, this description could be twice or thrice as long but like most of the opinions of these camp members that would be pointless.

• I'll not get much into the fourth camp. There are so few who reside there. It doesn't really have a name to put on the entrance sign. It really doesn't need one since very few dare to go there. They spend their off-season watching film and reading scouting reports on college players entering the draft. The don't focus solely on players who are projected to go in the 1st or 2nd round. They study every draft eligible player in a serious attempt to gain useful knowledge about said players. They don't read only their favorite draft scouting websites but read all they can find on a player in order to gain a point of view from as many opinions as possible. They really want to gain a heads-up on the draft and FA to be prepared for his team's selections and signings in hopes of understanding how the team is attempting to build it's roster. These campers rarely get into debates but will enter discussions if the subject and general atmosphere of the thread is on target. They are the 1%.

Responding to your posts in general rather than a specific post-

My biggest issues with your posts isn't so much your arguments in themselves, but the way you present them. You present a fact, then run into your opinion/interpretation of the fact, then go on as if that interpretation was the fact.

If you presented the fact then stated your opinion and presented it as such and allowed the possibility of other interpretations, I think you would get better responses.

Other people do it, too. I'm not really trying to single you out, You've just been the most prolific recently.

For example you stated:



If you had stated, "maybe he thought he wasn't going to get support from Farmer...etc.", I think we'd be able to have more constructive discussion.

In this instance, I honestly don't think it's Farmer's job to support Hoyer. His teammates and the coaching staff, sure, but it's Farmer's job to make the most competitive roster. It's not to stroke egos.

I don't think anyone really knows what the context or wording of the texts were except Farmer and whoever they were sent to/through. I think if Farmer's texts stated that Hoyer was playing bad and maybe they should look at giving Johnny some time, he'd have just been doing his job. Hoyer wasn't doing well and we needed to find out if we had an answer on the roster. Obviously, if that were the case, it turned out poorly and he should have
done it within the rules.

"We never got to the numbers part," the agent, Joe Linta, said on Saturday. "They called and said they were interested in bringing him back."

I never heard a number until you threw up the 5 million number from where I know not?

So was there a money issue. Based on what is known no there was NOT. To state or say otherwise is a lie as I have said all along.

Therefore to say we do NOT know is false we may choose to ignore what has been said (which you have done BTW) but the facts that we have say otherwise. If you have proof of money being put on the table bring it out and I will except it. As I have done in refuting this false claim.



I have posted it but you refuse to look at it any other way then it wasn't our FO they are saints. But I will do it again it does require you to think just a tinny little bit but its as likely as all hell and a very reasonable conclusion.



Mac moment to the side my conclusions are gleaned from the available info thats out there. Your conclusions are based on 5 million dollar deals that don't exist so who is having a mac moment? LMAO




I will grant you this you have stuck to your support of this regime even in the face of facts. You allow that Farmer did indeed text and you agree it was on more then one occasion and lets be frank here do you think he was texting about Hoyer? Please don't leave out an answer to this question.

Then lets make a huge even you might say gigantic leap and suppose that sense Farmer was texting about Hoyer during games on Sunday afternoon that he was a bit less then supportive the rest of the week as well. That's why I keep saying it confirms what I always thought, and is consistent going all the way back to last pre season. I always had that feeling that something wasn't quite right with the FO and Hoyer. I know that is a weak case at least the last part but man for me I put it with what I felt I already knew and went there it is the smoking gun. Is it a Mac moment? na I don't think so to much circumstantial evidence for that to be so.



Ah man that is great I know you love your football, your as passionate about it as anyone I ever met, and I love and respect that in anyone. Few have true passion you do and thats great. I wish you all the luck my friend, I hope you know that. Let me know if you have any Jersey games it would be great to get together and have a fight I mean a debate. LMAO. Love you Tab kick some ass this year.

I see being retired has given you more time to type up gibberish.

The facts show how you arrived at your opinion, and its IMO an essential element to your position. It is ground zero so to speak and you expand out from there.

For me its a part of the process to reach my conclusion.

You went to great lengths to show how I got to the conclusion in regards to Farmer and texting, for me at least its a forgone conclusion that Farmer texted #1 and #2 that those texts were about Hoyer and finally #3 that those texts were not kind to Hoyer.

You mistakenly believe that its Farmer job to express his opinion and you are correct but not during a game. And I have said many of the things here on this board in the past. It's absolutely essential that the players believe that the coaching staff and the FO have their back at all times, because it builds confidence for the player and allows him to hopefully not just be successful but hopefully over achieve. There isn't a thing wrong with Farmers opinion but the venue he choose to express that opinion was and is all wrong.

If it doesn't lead to winning it takes away from it. Imagine for a moment that Hoyer caught wind that Farmer was texting during the game (which it appears he did) then imagine that Hoyer finds out Farmer was calling for his removal from the game. Which it also appears he did. How do you think Hoyer would feel about Farmer moving forward? How does that benefit the team?

These types of conversations take place all the time in the NFL but its done in private with a select audience, for a very good reason I might add.

But for me going back to camp last year and then in season as well the support Hoyer should have gotten was absent even when Hoyer had great performances the support just wasn't there, I could sense it and I think Hoyer sensed it too.

In conclusion I think you would be fine with how I got to my opinion if it matched your own.

Beats the hell out of me. I'm only reading this page because it's either that or watch paint dry.

This thread will self destruct in 10 years...

Yes, I believe that is exactly what happened. How could you not?

And if that's the case, is that a bad thing?

only when they brought mccown in to replace him.

And no one else on the other side is doing the same? Why not chastise them? There are several of them and in fact, you are one of them.

That is a good question.

I would say it has two answers at this point.

1. If JM is indeed a superstar in waiting, it was an excellent decision.

2. If JM sucks like he did last year, than it is a terrible decision.

Perhaps not quite that simple, but I really don't believe you want an honest discussion, so why waste my time thinking deeply on someone who really doesn't want to hear it?

I read the board every day, and my takeaways from the new guys is that W84N and Grimm are pretty level headed guys who enjoy doing the very thing you preach ... talk football. I don't see them coming at anyone, stating opinion as fact, or any of the other shenanigans that go on here. They don't get into it with others and genuinely try and stay out of that. So why the hostility toward those guys? In the Duke thread, you just tried to crap all over Grimm for asking a genuine question.

Maybe you and ddub and BTTB should go start your own board. You guys can tell each other "you're the greatest" ... "no, you're the greatest" ... "no way man, you are definitely the greatest" ... LOL ... this board is pure comedic gold.

It was a legit question.

People are up in arms that we are not creating competition at the QB position because we didn't re-sign Hoyer.

When is the last time a QB competition ever worked out for this team?

Why wouldn't the team clear the deck in favor of the guy they picked to be the franchise QB?