DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Hoyer/McCown Debate and Scheme Fit/Cohesion

dont worry. mccown will shatter that record.

Man you are getting old...We had QB's here that were so bad the coach didn't even like them taking the snap, BQ, CM, come to mind right off the top of my head. But you have chosen I think to ignore many things, or most likely forgot.........

JMHO

We could say the same thing about you and ignoring/forgetting things. [shrug]

Look at the numbers from weeks 12 to 14 last year for Hoyer. We've definitely had worse QBs overall, but that was a pretty nasty funk- Especially the Colts game.

No dude I remember very well all of those games. I remember that on at least 3 occasions over that span Gordon ran the wrong route or failed to fight for the ball that led to ints. I remember in the Colts game with the game on the line Hoyer tossing the ball to Cameron who oddly enough also ran the wrong route which led to an int. Still Hoyer played poorly but he sure as hell had plenty of help, and that gets skipped right over and of course now I have to hear the hecklers tell me about excuses even if it is true.

Then the run game went in the crapper but its fine doesn't matter if its 3rd and 8 over and over its the QBs job to overcome and deliver, and it is. But realistically and statistically QBs who operate in third and long don't have a high rate of success. Again nothing but an excuse, again though he had plenty of help.

The easy thing the convenient thing is to blame Hoyer, and hope when he goes away your problem go with him, want a bet they don't?

I'm not trying to attack you, just making observations.

Our previous QBs had plenty of help looking awful, too.

Yes they did, the difference with Hoyer was he was able to pull everyone together and LED them to be better then they really were. In the end there were things that happened that some of us skip over. Did Hoyer trust Gordon and did he trust Cameron? And we know about some of the times when Gordon/Cameron ran the wrong route but do we know about all the other times as well? And did that lead to Hoyer being hesitant with the ball?

Of course thats all is a huge leap right? Never mind its just BTTB having a mac moment. Just excuses couldn't possibly be true.......Since all 3 of those guys are all gone now everything will be just fine right?

What makes me wonder is.. When Cameron and Gordon were so hot.. who was the QB ?? hmm.. I think it was Weeden ?

Breakdown: The Browns gave Hoyer another chance this week instead of going with rookie Johnny Manziel and the move did not pay off. He didn’t play as poorly as recent weeks because he was able to hit on a few more deep passes, but Hoyer’s accuracy was still erratic at times. He missed open receivers on several occasions and a major reason for his inaccuracy was that he failed to set his feet or step into throws. Hoyer has now earned a -21.5 overall grade over the last four weeks, one of the worst stretches for a quarterback in PFF history.

link

I was gonna post that whole article but it has some graphs in it that wouldn't have shown up.



Hoyer’s decline over the last three weeks has been dramatic. In fact, going back as far as the PFF database will allow (2007), no Cleveland quarterback has graded worse over a three-week span than the -17.7 that Hoyer just accumulated. His QB Accuracy dropped to a league-low 60.2% during that stretch and he lobbed six interceptions to only one touchdown.

link

Stats are for losers. They almost never tell the whole story and you know that as well as I do.

The pieces that dub posted while interesting proves that you can use just stats and make your case, I watched the games and later was told that so and so ran the wrong route and I already knew that the run game was putting Hoyer in a bad spot in terms of down and distance. I said that Hoyer should have overcome some of those thing the run game mainly but like I also said Hoyer had help, and he did where is the stat for that?

Hey, why are you insulting kids in middle school? My kids don't act like that.

Stats are for losers unless you're trying to use certain stats to bolster your position? Like a QB's record?

one of the stats every team looks at with a QB is win/loss. true or false?

False, the Browns are clearly looking at a different stat.

well if they are talking about mCcown as a starter i guess so.

Apparently we are all losers on here then, I don't think anyone hasn't mentioned a stat.

Who is this mystery person telling you about wrong routes? They may have made different reads based on the coverage, but I never heard about anyone flat out running the wrong route. Hoyer is at least partially responsible for being on the same page with his receivers.

There you go with that "knew" word again as well. You may have thought the run game put Hoyer in bad spots, but I don't see any concrete evidence of it. Was Hoyer not able to audible out of bad run plays?

Didn't you just say stats were for losers?

Josh Gordon admits running wrong routes, as he learns on fly

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...-learns-on-fly/

Cleveland Browns notes: Jordan Cameron takes blame for interception

Jordan Cameron says he was guilty of running the wrong route on a critical play in the first quarter Dec. 7 that resulted in Colts safety Mike Adams intercepting a pass in the end zone.

http://www.news-herald.com/sports/201412...or-interception

people can say what they want about the last 4 games. but the fact is hoyer had 8 ok. slightly above average games 2 really bad games. when we started grecko as center and when jj watt was in the backfeild more than our RBs.

then gordon came back. hawkens was playing on a bum leg. and austen got hurt. i am not going to say hoyer was all that but........ to say there was no excuse is absurd.

i will say again what i said before. hoyer was making players around him play better than they are. look at austin for a example. 66% catch rate. was never that close before. because he ran good routs and knew how to place his body in front of the defender. wasnt like he was running wide open all the time.

all i read was how our oline quit... what happen to our oline... when every QB not named hoyer was in. pffft well he made the oline look better. i dont think he is a franchise QB but..... i think he earned more time at it. jmo.

wouldnt have been mad if they brought someone in that had up side. but josh freakin mCcown. pffft. a joke.

I hate how articles have direct quotations except where it talks about the wrong routes.

The Gordon article has Hoyer say they need to get more in sync which to me means a read issue rather than a route issue.

The Cameron article has Cameron saying he went over a defender when he should have gone under which is a read issue to me. Hoyer even went on to say that he just shouldn't have thrown the ball and they need to get on the same page.

I hate how the media often write something that "sounds good", but isn't factually accurate.

I know how you feel. I don't think I would have been happy with any of our realistic options at QB. I don't think Andrew Luck was available at any price. We were pretty much stuck with Manziel (or some equally unready QB who would cost more) being mentored until he was ready. If Manziel flops, we're drafting another QB high again in '16/17. I'm trying to make the best of a bad situation with McCown. He seems to be a good fit for that mentor role, and is willing to assume it. He should know all about hard times as an NFL QB.

pffft

"I was definitely running the wrong routes,'

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._social_feature

pffft its the media fault.

“I needed to go underneath the (defender) and I went above him,” Cameron said. “It was my fault. It’s on me.”

yea ok. pfft. its the media fult again.

j/c:

So we are going to use only 4 games of Hoyer's time w/the Browns AND post his QB rating during that time period, while ignoring the rest of the games he played in.......AND ignore his won lost record and how it compares to the QBs who played w/the Browns during the same time period.

Gee, that's scientific.

Okay, the cleveland.com article actually has a direct attribution. I'll give you that one.

I kind of wish I knew what went on in the huddle.

"I was definitely running the wrong routes,'' he said. "Now I know all the routes, but now it's just when some of the plays we have that aren't tagged for you, you've got to know what to do.''

Can anyone explain the end of that quote and the whole "tagged" concept? I always played in systems where all the receivers routes were in the playcall.

It would have been nice if Gordon/Hoyer could have communicated better.

It would have been nice if Gordon cared about his team and being a professional.

The guy's body language SCREAMED "I quit" last year.

I wouldn't say scientific, but they were used only for the purpose of illustrating that comment calling Hoyer the worst QB for the browns being "the dumbest ever" was a little over the top.

For those games his QB play was amongst the worst I've ever seen, thus I've seen way "dumber" comments.

For example, "What's a (insert name here)?" is a lot dumber to me [shrug]

Was it "I quit" or "What the hell am I supposed to be doing"?

I don't think he didn't care. I think he just learns best on the field, and he didn't really have the opportunity to do that last year with the suspension. I think he got a raw deal especially looking back now after Brady only gets 4 games for something that supposedly actually affected something on the field.

J/C ..... I noticed this when Weeden was in the game a couple of years ago .....

After the game, receivers would take the blame, "Ooops, I ran a wrong route", or my timing was off ..... and after watching Weeden play QB at a continually lower and lower level, I came to understand that the receivers do this so that he will continue to throw them the ball. Not one player said "That stupid SOB under Center couldn't read a defense if it was in 12 foot type, because that's not how players are built. They may compliment one player, like they did when Hoyer came into the starting role in 2013, but they try to never bury another player.

Now I do think that Hoyer was more well liked, and that also plays into things, but I don't think that all of our receivers just suddenly forgot how to run routes as the year progressed. Gordon probably did have issues, and he definitely screwed up, but if a guy isn't where he is supposed to be, when he is supposed to be there, don't thrown the darn ball.

Of course they take the blame, you'll never see a receiver throw his QB under the bus. One can make all the excuses for Hoyer they want, and maybe a few routes were run the wrong way. But too many times he threw the ball into traffic double sometimes triple coverage, take the receiver out of the equation and from a passer perspective those were some pretty poor decisions. And his accuracy, sometimes he threw good passes but when he missed man it was some of the worst throws I've ever seen. His completion percentage was beyond bad and you can't blame it all on the receivers.

I'm not going to dismiss your ideas out of hand but it sure would be great to know who Hoyer was throwing to when the picks were made? I'm too lazy to go and look but just a guess most of them were throws to Gordon.

But the whole point I was trying to make was this all fell on Hoyer (no doubting that) but he had help, and he did according to everything I know. (which is very little according to the masses) pfffffffffffffffffttttttttttttttt

I completely disagree w/your thinking here. His body language spoke volumes about how his attitude. I even started a thread about it because it was apparent that he was just going through the motions.

His partying lifestyle meant way more to him than learning the plays.

I also don't think he got a raw deal. Instead, he got so many more chances than most people get. His sense of entitlement grew and his lack of responsibility increased because his supporters excused away one violation after another.

Oh, and I still think the comment about Hoyer being the worst qb in the history of the Browns was ignorant. Focusing ONLY on a small stretch of games and ignoring a 10 and 6 record as a starter while all the other QBs in the same period had a record of 1 and 15 is illogical and reeks of bias.

Edit: I had to go back and find cfrs's comment about Hoyer just to make sure. He did not say a 4 game stretch. This is what he said:



Was he worse than Manziel late in the season? Was he worse than Shaw was late in the season? Was he worse than BQ was his entire time excluding one game? Was he worse than when DA only completed 3 passes in an entire game? Was he worse than Timid when he checked down because he was scared? Was he worse than Nat Dorsey at any point?

The comment was ignorant. Period.

Body language only tells you so much, you can't say you know what was going on his head. All the reports were that he was working hard in practice. He wasn't fully up to speed. It's hard to go all out when you're not confident in what you are supposed to be doing.

His partying lifestyle? Are you sure you're not getting him confused with Manziel? Were any of Gordon's infractions in season in the pros? The last one was definitely 4 drinks in a plane after the Browns' season was over. You think that a little alcohol deserves a 16 game suspension? That's a raw deal to me. No one got hurt, it didn't effect any games. Brady gets 4 for actually trying to gain a competitive advantage smh.

Oh, and I'm done arguing about Hoyer...it's the DUMBEST ARGUMENT EVER [shrug]

Thanks made me laugh too.......................

Like I said earlier, we completely disagree about this topic. Completely!

j/c

Maybe I'm totally missing something here. Now stick with me for a few minutes......

How many who were for keeping Hoyer believe he was a QB who could potentially take us to a SB?

How many of those people believe Manziel is a QB who can take us to a SB?

Now from what I've been reading, most if not all posters don't have the faith or belief that either of these QB's are/were the real answer in accomplishing that goal.

So what is the best odds of finding a franchise QB? Would it be to be steeped in mediocrity finishing somewhere in the middle of the pack for a couple of more seasons drafting in the middle of the draft?

Unless Manziel turns from an ugly duckling into a swan, we will need at least a top 5 draft pick to have a shot at a franchise QB. As much as it may pain many of you, the only way to have a good shot at drafting a franchise QB is to equal or nearly equal the sucktitude of Tampa Bay last season.

If what some of you seem to believe is true, then we have the perfect QB to get us there in Josh McCown. I believe what many of you are so vehemently arguing against, if you believe what you are saying, may be the best true path at getting our franchise QB.

Does that mean I advocate tanking the season or that I believe that is the goal of this FO? No, not really. But from reading the popular opinions, it seems that those in the "should have kept Hoyer camp" don't believe he was the answer either. So how else would you go about finding our franchise QB other than the route it seems so many of you fear will be the outcome?

jmho

I was simply posing questions to those who don't believe either Hoyer or Manziel are the answer but wanted Hoyer to remain here. Yet at the same time, they didn't believe that Hoyer was a long term answer.

While I don't consider Manziel a bust based on 6 quarters of football, at this stage, he's certainly what I consider an ugly duckling. But hey, even ugly ducklings have turned out to be swans. lol

your pretty much asking win games or tank the season. i always fall on the win games side of things.