DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel...continued again!...

No harm whatsoever.

Where you and I see it differently is this:

You seem to be gagging at quoted statements that are "stock remarks for offseason pressers"...

...while I'm thinking: "Wow- I bet if I go to 31 other NFL sites, I'll read the exact same things."

If it's 'fluff,' (as most understand the term)... why are any of us fighting about it? Should be worth no more than a shrug from any of us, imo.

So what? What's wrong with fluff articles? Look, NOBODY is pretending that the QB position is all "Rosey"! NOT ONE PERSON!

This is NOT written to make anyone feel good. It's a piece that talks about what some players are saying. That's really all it is. Nothing more than that.

I think that this was a Pettine draft, through and through.

Shelton is exactly what the defense needed. We v added depth to the OL, which had to drive Pettine crazy last year when injuries struck. We took a pass rushing OLB, and a DE who is also a very good pass rusher. We took a RB who is a weapon, and a FB who can play a triple role. 2 CB are definitely Pettine, as is the Safety we drafted.

These are all Pettine kind of players. This draft is very much as I see Pettine. Get the basics right and the rest will follow. Be strong in the trenches and you can win games. This is definitely a draft in which Pettine had a huge influence.

I admit that I was taken aback at Farmer's comments about Manziel, and almost wondered if he had been misquoted, because it was so far off of Pettine's position.

As far as basketball, a lot of these guys are just plain athletes, and many who grew up in urban environments did so playing a lot of basketball. In fact, for many such pro athletes, probably much of their socialization probably took place either on the football field, or the basketball court. It doesn't surprise me at all that many of these guys still play basketball in the off-season.

It's all about the F and p quotient:

Positive article = Fluff and Pr

Negative article = Fact and Problems

Where you stand on that continuum is how you interpret these articles.

Every year we get the same fluff and every year its just talk, and yeah sooner or later it will be true but so far we are 1-15 just like all the bitching that goes on every year about the Bozo's saying we will win 4-5-6 games consistently. The truth is they are closer to right then we are EVERY year. Nothing wrong with putting pieces out that pump up the fan base, but so long as we all realize these pieces are nearly always misleading.

I hate to say this but at this point I'm more likely to side with the Vegas boys then the fluffy stuff, with cause I might add.

Be happy, be positive, don't allow it to disappoint you when the season starts...

2-14 baby can't be disappointed when thats all you expect.

Now I would like to see a QB called "Rosey" !

If Johnny Manziel shows anything in camp, Browns should start him


Pat McManamon, ESPN Staff Writer

The Cleveland Browns are handling Johnny Manziel with the tenderest of kid gloves.

While being quirky in gushing over three weeks of Manziel's offseason work, they are not inflating expectations, not overselling. They say publicly they'll take “baby steps” with him, which may be appropriate for a guy not far removed from a 10-week stay in rehab.

Privately, the Browns have to hope Manziel has a transformation that brings him far closer to the hyped guy they drafted than the guy who left so many questions after his rookie season.

And they have to hope Manziel shows something during training camp, because if Manziel merely leaves camp comparable with Josh McCown, it makes more sense to play Manziel than McCown.

McCown is a 35-year-old veteran who brings experience and leadership, and the right to be the No. 1 heading into camp. He brings nothing to make any team (other than the Browns) sit up and take notice that he should be a starter.

Offensive coordinator John DeFilippo admitted this past Saturday that he was very involved in McCown’s signing and said McCown had never been comfortable with a team or system that relieved pressure from him by running the ball.

Maybe that will help.

Problem is, the track record indicates otherwise.

At his age and with 12 years of experience -- he was a free agent and turns 36 on July 4 -- McCown is, as they often say in the NFL, what he is. That is, a perfect backup who can step in and hold the fort for a few games if need be.

Manziel, though, is a former first-round draft pick with the college achievements and skills that bring excitement.

If his personal situation is strong and he dedicates himself to being a professional, he brings possibility to a Browns season woefully short of it. His road will be difficult. There will be challenges and at the most basic level he has to prove he can play in the NFL -- a great uncertainty given the way the Cincinnati Bengals treated him last season.

But the possibility exists.

The praise for Manziel for simply doing what he’s supposed to be doing in the offseason program seems a bit over the top. Except Manziel is just one year removed from floating swans and Vegas bathrooms. So every step is a step. And with Manziel, every step matters more than it might with a Joe Thomas or Joe Haden. But as Thomas has pointed out, the offseason steps matter far less than the in-season ones.

Through 11 games last season, the Browns did not have a reason to play Manziel outside of impatience. After 13, they went with the decision to play a guy who was clearly not ready. A team that started 7-4 and was competing for the playoffs submarined its season with its own impatience and second-guessing.

But that’s last year.

This season, they have a quarterback heading down the back nine and another on the second hole who yanked his drive in the woods and plopped his approach in the water on the first.

The Browns can say that McCown will be the starter in OTAs and entering training camp, because he has to be. Quarterback competitions, as Bengals coach Marvin Lewis has said and the Browns have proven, never work.

But the Browns have never said Manziel can’t win the job. That door is always open.

This is not a novel concept. The best guy plays. If McCown is the best guy or if Manziel still looks unprepared, then play McCown.

But if Manziel takes care of himself personally and professionally, and if he does anything at all in training camp, he should start. And the Browns should stick with him.

Another year of uncertainty is another year of delay in finding the quarterback. The Browns need to find out about Mr. Football so they can make plans for the future.

Where the Browns go with McCown is fairly certain.

Where they might go with Manziel isn’t.
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i think they should start him no matter what. if not him than shaw.

Thank you, I also wondered the same thing, and this is definitely the second time this has happened. The first time was understandable, especially considering the context. Pett can sometimes be loose with his word choice, and he says what he thinks, and skips the regurgitated talking points. We love that, but there are downsides to doing that. As long as Pett will talk to the media like this, then Farmer will be equally blunt when he feels the coach has talked too far beyond the safe topics. I won't worry about there being an issue until there's an issue.

About this time in particular, I'd prefer Farmer to butt out of how the coach handles his players on the field, and that's despite my agreeing with Farmer's not wanting to baby Manziel.

+1

I get the frustration with "Fluff" pieces but I don't think anyone inside the building, or even in the media has expressed any "Excitement" towards the Browns current QB situation. What kind of articles are supposed to be written? "Oh crap, this team is screwed" type of articles? We'll get those eventually in due time, but right now this team has a very refreshing amount of talent and even depth in certain positions. Our list of needs is as short as it's ever been (sadly the primary need STILL being quarterback). I can understand SOME reason for optimism in Cleveland, but I've yet to read anything DENYING that the Browns have a bad quarterback situation.



Mike Pettine would be contradicting himself if he just handed Manziel the job. He's been preaching competition since the day he stepped in the door and you can't be any different at the QB position. I think Manziel has to decisively beat out McCown to earn the starting job. You have a locker room to worry about in regards to a QB competition. If McCown clearly gives the team a better chance at winning, but Manziel gets handed the job anyway, veteran players pick up on that and probably won't like it. You have to go with the guy who gives the team a better shot at winning.

I don't think Shaw has the arm strength to actually win the starting job, but I would love nothing more if the kid stepped up and took it from McCown/Manziel. It would be great finding that next "hidden gem" at quarterback.

Excellent point of view.

I endorse this post and particularly the above statement...

I think they can be on the same level, just a different look.

1.) Pettine feels it's "muddy at best" because we don't know what we have in JM and McCown has not played for us yet.
2.) Farmer feels like it's not "muddy at best" because he drafted JM and expects him to compete and be the guy they drafted. Also McCown is a vet. and leader and Ray expects him to lead until JM is ready.

So as you can see, One HC who needs TO SEE the work to justify the starter and Two, the GM who believes in his draft and has the upmost confidence in his QB. Not really all that different.

Yes, it's a fluff piece, however, Manziel is fighting 2 battles. One with himself, and one with learning to be an NFL QB on the fly.

He can't fight the second battle without winning the first one, and by all accounts, he has done just that.

I'm pulling for him. I've never jumped off his bandwagon, but if I'm a betting, man, I think he is your opening day starter, and I don't think he will be ready to start winning. McCown will take over soon after, and we will be picking in the top 3 next year.

Part of that is his own fault, but part of that is some of the media and fans who have had it out for him since the moment they drafted him.

I just hope the next guy gets shown patience, so that we can actually develop him.

You take me too seriously mac...

So "TEXT" just sat around and watched Pet take the picks?
I only wish.

I just want to see Johnny throwing the ball. I dont care if it against a defense or air but I am just very curious to see if he is getting his mechanics back in order or still looking like the tin man out there. He is putting in the work in the class room, lets see how he is throwing the ball.

I don't think that will ever happen in Cleveland. The fans and media are too starving for a winner that they demand instant results. And when instant results aren't delivered, they demand change. Little do they realize that the best teams resist the urge to give up on guys right away and develop their players. Hell, I think it was Hooley sitting in for Rizzo this morning, and he couldn't stop talking about how he couldn't wait to move on from Manziel. After 7 quarters.

j/c


Sooner or later, a CLE front office (even moreso, the owner) needs to stop listening to the tantrums of short attention-span fans, and cram a product down their throats that actually gets a chance to become something.

Just ignore'em. Why? Because fans bitch even when we win games.

If that's the case, they're never going to be satisfied until there is a Paul Brown (screw Lombardi) Trophy in CLE, so they might as well ignore the rabble, and build this damned thing right... for the first time since Art "Burninhell' Modell bought the team.

Of course there are no guarantees for success with this crew under Jimmy, any more than there was with any other regime under either Al or Randy.

BUT: at some point we simply MUST get away from the "Perpetual 3-Year Reboot Plan"... because it's yielded the only consistent results we've ever seen... failure.

I'd like these guys to get AT LEAST 5 YEARS. Time enough to work it out. Time enough to make mistakes and correct those mistakes. Time enough to build in an identity for each squad of the team with their own players... not some weak, hybrid hodge-podge of mis-used players from 2 previous regimes. And finally: time enough to turn that identity into a culture for the team that lasts for decades. The kind of culture that puts a completely different spin on the motto: "Play like a Brown." The kind of culture that allows that motto to actually MEAN something.

Some Browns fans think these guys might have some promise.
Some Browns fans don't like'em at all.

Pardon my bluntness, but I'm at the point where I say, "screw'em if they don't like the coaches and FO." If the Browns start winning (which has a better chance of happening with some consistency), they'll like'em soon enough. And those who will continue to hate on them even during a playoff run... well, maybe they're just folks who are addicted to misery. Fun party mates, huh?

Look, some of this is tongue-in-cheek. A little bit of it is rant. But my main message is this:

3 owners
7* GM's (*Butch Davis)
7 HC's
21 QB's


Continual change clearly hasn't worked...especially in a division with 3 of the most stable FO's in the NFL. Maybe we should be sticking with something, even if a few years have some pain attached?

It's so crazy, it just might work.

.02

I don't think any front office worth anything would let the fans influence what they do. I think the previous front offices and owners have been pretty incompetent.

Wow, let it all out, Clem. I'm in complete agreement...

Whats the old saying if you listen to the fans you will soon be sitting with them.

Na dude while I feel certain the fans have at least some sway this all falls on management we can't make them do squat no matter how much we bitch.

If we did hold sway then who fired Chud?

Instability comes from management not from the fans....

JMHO

Boy you guys still wanting to just throw him out day one one, regardless, is scary. This kid has massive amounts of weight on his shoulders.

He's technically fighting two battles. One to stay clean and focused, and the other to become a NFL Qb and improve on the several things that he needs.

Just one of those battles is asking, expecting and even hoping for alot. He's going to have to overcome both. I don't think he'll be able to, just too much.

If he's starter day one, I hope it's because he's displayed concrete reasoning to the staff and earned it. If he can't beat out what we have, throwing him into the game is asking for even more trouble when we will already have our answer regarding him. Can't beat out an old veteran who's coming off a very poor season in camp, then it's absurd to think he'll beat out another NFL defense on game day.

LB those are all great reasons to cut the football player and wish him well with his personal problems, I feel certain that the money he has gotten from the Browns will make his landing a soft one.

At this point he has to prove his worth and if he can't bye bye.

This sounds like PF with this is our 2nd 1st year...LOL

JMHO

I agree with that mac.

I think Pettine is handling this completely wrong, and I'm glad that Farmer said what he said.

But it also makes me wonder if Pettine has already closed the book on Manziel and that he feels he just isn't an NFL QB so why waste the time. That could be why he's saying what he's saying in the media as well.

Which is a whole other problem.

I agree Mac, Manzeil did show he was serious by going to rehab and spending time with the coaches at the facility, so it's time for the Browns to give him the full load and see if he is our future or not ...

Honestly, I don't think anything will be handed or given to that kid. I don't think there is any babying either. Farmer in one of his recent presser when asked about JF pretty much laid any we are babying him to rest.

My personal opinion regarding JF, he was told either shape up or get ready to ship out this year. I'd even venture to say that Haslam, Ray and Pettine have all had that "type" of talk to him.

We'll see, so far so good it seems on the JF front. Much, much distance to go.

The message from the Browns I took from last year is its OK if your a 1st round pick to not work hard and dedicate yourself to your job. Think about that for a moment?

That IMO is unfair to the team and players who work hard, and its unfair to us the fans. The message should have been work hard and dedicate yourself or find out what NFL means.

So few guys are ever afforded the chance to play and earn the money these guys make, if they choose to squander that opportunity then they have no one to blame but themselves.

For me as a long suffering fan who quite frankly is running short on years I absolutely have no patients for guys that want to be lazy and party away their opportunities. Johnny is very lucky that he is being afforded a second chance, and I'm all for it but a repeat of last season on his part and he is gone if I had say. I never would have coddled him to begin with.

If the reports coming from Berea are to be believed it sounds like he has rededicated himself, he had better because there will be no 3rd chance. If it were me I would make that crystal clear to him. The reason I say if reports are true is because they said he was doing what he was asked last year and after seeing the product on the field I believe that was ALL a big lie.

Going forward Johnny has to win the starters job, if he doesn't I would cut him. Beating out McCown should be the easiest thing he has to do all season. If he can't accomplish that then we need to move on.

JMHO

If you ignore the fact that they benched Gilbert, and only played Johnny when Hoyer was playing like crap..

They gave nothing to no one last year..

They gave Tate a bunch of money, and when he got outperformed and wasn't happy about it, he was cut..

When West messed up, they punished him..

There is no way to deny this post, and I freaking love it. Finally we have a coach that lives, and doesn't just "say" it, by the motto "we will put the best players on the field" and regardless.

It's too early for Pettine to know anything about Manziel the player unless he is completely basing it on last year.

Farmer is 100% right here. Babying Johnny does no one any good...the Browns, the players, the fans, and Manziel himself.

If he isn't ready to be the starting QB of the Browns, then we have to move on. The human side says he just got out of rehab and he should focus on that. But that's a Manziel problem, not a Browns or Browns fan problem. If he needs more time to focus on himself, maybe he should step away from football.

No, Pettine is writing him off for some reason. Or he's trying to take the pressure off of him. In which case, I believe that is the wrong thing to do.

Sorry but what a load of crap.

It was widely reported that Gordon was regularly late for team meetings. No consequences. Until that is he didn't bother to show up at all.

JF sitting on his ass sipping a cocktail all season no consequences until he didn't bother showing up.

There were times when they did enforce team rules but it wasn't across the board thats for damned sure. In the end I think they did realize the errors of their ways but to say now that they finally someone did it, no sir they did NOT.

In fact of all the things that has repeatedly dragged this team down more so then anything its been this sense of entitlement that has been bestowed on certain players, and last year was no different. But like I said I think they KNOW they messed that up last year, my bet is it doesn't ever happen again with Pet.

I pray they learned and I think they did, but last season it was hit and miss.

Factoring suspending Gordon week 17, and the consequences that entails for that kid (no accrued season), I'd say that was a legit punishment. It puts him in a bad situation and effects him negatively in alot of ways, especially in terms of his contract and money situation.

JF sipping cocktails comment, he was still riding the bench. He was still taking bulk load of the practice team reps. I don't think he was being a douchebag and having stuff given to him. He got the call after consistent showings of poor performance by Hoyer and that ended almost as quick as it begun.

Why wasn't he benched or fined for coming to team meetings late, ya missed that one. He was suspended for not showing up.



Dude got in a fight at 2am in the mourning, what happened? He didn't work hard, show up for your job and lay on your ass, I bet there are consequences, ah




What?