DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel...continued again!...

I remember the Atlanta Falcons taking a kid high in the second round a couple of decades ago. Nobody but nobody thought he'd ever be anything in the NFL and the pick was horrid. Atlanta gave up on him early and let him go. He had some off the field issues and took care of it. He then went on to be a HOF quality QB and arguably one of the best QB's to play in the NFL.

Hmm, maybe you're missing something. Pettine fined Gordon, he publicly said that leading up to the suspension. But I doubt the fine was anything Gordon felt impacted by, it was being suspended that has the most associated consequences for him. Google it up if you don't believe me, I would but I'm at work and on the mobile.

Again, JF was sidelined the bulk load of the entire previous season and was known for getting limited reps with first team. He also got fined and suspended. What exactly is the punishment you're expecting here?

To your what comment, thought my statement was pretty clearcut. JF only saw the field because the veteran Hoyer, had fallen off the deep end. Had Hoyer played "somewhat" decent, I mean even just SOMEWHAT, do you really and honestly think JF would've sniffed the grid iron? No, he wouldn't have.

I'm not sure what the protocol is for being late to meetings in the NFL. Fining a guy for being late is moving towards being Mangini-esque. There were plenty of people that were not a fan of that. I guess you're soft until you're a ruthless dictator.

To say Gordon got soft treatment is being ridiculous. The guy lost an entire season of a huge contract (in addition to the lost season from suspension). I don't feel sorry for him, but I think he got punished plenty.
With Manziel, I think you could make an argument that he got off easy, but I also believe that Pettine is trying to challenge him now. It might not be punishment, but I bet being in equal competition with Shaw and McCown is really chapping JM's butt right now. I see what Pettine is doing as throwing down a challenge.

Yes Eo, indeed JF wasn't technically suspended. Thanks for the correction

Yes they did (Fine Gordon for being late)I stand corrected and Gordon earned his suspension for the last game. I thought wrongly that Gordon had gotten away with being late.


They did better then I thought they did. Got to do away with player entitlement I view this as step in the right direction. The Mangini comment is well earned Mangini was about accountability and without it you have the Browns of the past (I hope). Its one of the things you need to turn it around, to bad nobody saw it for what it was back when Mangini was the coach. Pet and Mangini are much alike, only Pet isn't as smart as Mangini, and Mangini is no where near as likeable but the roots are quite a bit alike.

The jury is also still out on this front office too.

Best post in this 90000 page thread.

Spergon Wynn?

I've never bought into the theory that we've "ruined" QB's. I don't think Tim Couch was ruined. I think Tim Couch struggled to be consistent and by the time he left Cleveland, he just wasn't that good. I have a buddy up in Milwaukee who is a huge Packer fan, and if you remember, that's where Couch went after he was released. He sent me a message during a preseason game and said this guy's arm is DEAD. There's no doubt that our lack of a good OL beat him up quite a bit, I don't think we "ruined" him.

I think it's a mix of us not bringing in very good QB's, and us just giving up on them too early. Sounds like a damned if you do/damned if you don't situation, but it just kills us even more when you see these QB's for other teams come right out of the draft and give their fan something to be excited about.

Johnny may just not be good enough, but I'm ok with what we did this year. We used picks for other needs, we appear to be drafting BPA (which thank GOD) and I think this is Johnny's golden opprtunity to win everything. The fans, the teams, himself. The team around him is going to be pretty good. We're not loaded at WR, but they have capable guys. The defense with Shelton in the middle should be much better. The running game is going to be something to lean on. It's set up for him.

I fully expect him to win the job out of training camp. If I could bet on that, I would.

I'm thinking you might want to check some facts on Couch

He sent me a message during a preseason game and said this guy's arm is DEAD.

There was always a question about TC's arm. there were reports about him having to rest it during spring training because of tennis elbow, thats the reason Dwight Clark went back down to see if he could throw the ball with zip. It was reported that he put a purple knot in DC's chest with a throw and the rest is history. So I would say you were right about a dead arm.

1.) Since EC is no longer a HC I would say Pettine has a leg up.
2.) There is no way you can know that. EM wasn't excactly known for his smarts. He tried to be like BB and failed, when he should have just been himself

Bill Parcells was cranky, old and wise..mangini was cranky

Mangini and all of his old veteran players.

I didn't dislike Mangini, but man the offensive "talent" we had during his two seasons here was ATROCIOUS....

You didn't like Mike Furrey, Massaquoi, and a washed up Jamal Lewis?

He did have the Peyton Hillis season and the Jerome Harrison stretch of ridiculousness.

Like what?

The reason he was released here was for whatever reason, the reason he never made it back in the league was his rotator never healed up. You left that part out.

More importantly, he was beat up like crazy in 1999 and 2000. I don't remember the exact number but he was sacked like 80+ times in those two years.

I think that comes under the heading of "ruining a QB" don't you?

Anyone that thinks that doesn't take it's toll is just being silly.

Whoops,, forgot the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Couch

A good sign..."First one to arrive last one to leave"

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...icipant-in-otas

Johnny Manziel will enter Browns offseason training activities (OTAs) without any limitations and will be a full participant.

The development, per ESPN.com, is not really a surprise given the rave reviews Manziel has received this offseason so far. The general football cliche -- the first one to arrive and the last one to leave -- has been applied to him by teammates for the first time in his short career.


Now we'll get to see if this is all hype, or if an offseason of introspection and recovery was enough.

The most interesting part of this upcoming week will be if Browns coach Mike Pettine changes his tune about Manziel. He's been adamant that Josh McCown is his likely Week 1 starter, but could his opinion change after seeing Manziel throw at a consistent level?

I doubt that you will see that change before mid-Training Camp at the earliest.

I sincerely do not see Pettine rewarding Manziel with the starter's job merely for doing what he should have all along, much less doing it for just a couple of weeks.

There needs to be sustained proof of a turnaround in dedication, and an demonstrated improvement in playing ability.

Every single fan should be hoping and wishing that Manziel gets it. This team is ready to win now with a QB. We are off to the races if Manziel can be that guy.

It's cool he won his last 4 but he lost 11 before that.

Mangini had a 10-22 record as the head coach of the Browns.

Rather have Mike Pettine.


Early Predictions for Cleveland Browns' 2015 Training Camp Battles
By Andrea Hangst , Featured Columnist May 21, 2015



The Cleveland Browns' training camp will not commence until well into the summer. However, the team has already met for OTA practices and rookie minicamp and have more offseason workouts scheduled through the middle of June.

These offseason workouts and drills are as much about getting each player comfortable with their respective positions and assignments as it is to determine the depth chart. Positional battles are common among NFL teams this time of year, and for the Browns, it is no different.

Here are five of the Browns' biggest positional battles for 2015 and early predictions on how they may play out.

Browns head coach Mike Pettine has made it clear that veteran Josh McCown will be considered the starter through offseason activities and into training camp. It's not necessarily that McCown is the better quarterback, though, according to Pettine:

To me it's what I've said on Johnny so far that to me we want him essentially with horseblinders on. Focus on his job, getting up every day, perfecting his craft, whatever it is, homework that the quarterbacks have or come out and working on his footwork, his releases, that he's much more concerned about himself than really anything else.

So far, all reports are that Manziel is morphing into the focused player Pettine had hoped for. Cornerback Joe Haden, speaking with Mary Kay Cabot of the Plain Dealer last week, shared his thoughts on Manziel:

I can see just him trying to be involved a little bit more in the offense, him studying a lot more, him being in the facility a lot more. Him being involved with his coaches, just staying after and getting that one-on-one and being able to understand what he has to do. Just a different mentality. I'm really excited about it.

Cabot also noted that general manager Ray Farmer has not ruled out Manziel as their starter: "If he is prepared and he demonstrates the things that he needs to demonstrate, then yeah he should get every opportunity to be the guy. I think that's what it comes down to," said Farmer.

Though Manziel will get his chances, it looks as though the Browns are leaning toward starting McCown in Week 1. If that is the case, that does not mean that McCown will be the starter for all 16 games. But for now, before Manziel plays a single practice snap with the first team, it's hard to have him beating out McCown for Week 1 starting duties.

Link

Absolutely not reward him with the starting job.. but I think the comment was intended to mean that maybe Pettine pushes the "competition door" open just a crack to let Manziel know he still has a chance to win the job.... Because up until now, he has been fairly adament that he expects McCown to start.

Even that, I would wait a while...

Pettine wants a QB competition but it is up to Johnny to make it a competition. First one in, last one out is a good thing. When i hear they have to chase him out of the facility, thats a good thing. Young players do not understand what it takes to succeed at the NFL level.

I am super excited to see how this plays out. I had a top 15 grade on a QB under 6 ft. doesnt happen, especially in one of the best classes I have ever seen. I liked Wilson and had an incredibly high 2nd round grade on him but due to height, he was a 2nd rounder for me.

I am excited to see his growth but with that said, Pettine and Farmer have gone out of their way to build the Ravens of the last decade. Does Pet believe that McCown can be his Dilfer?

The new and improved Johnny Manziel will be unveiled Tuesday at Browns OTAs

By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group
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on May 21, 2015 at 6:43 PM, updated May 21, 2015 at 6:45 PM


CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The new and improved version of Johnny Manziel will be on display for the first time at organized team activities on Tuesday.

It marks the beginning of Phase III of the offseason program, which consists of 10 practices over the next three weeks. For the first time this offseason, reporters will be permitted to watch Manziel and the other veterans practice. So far, only rookie camp has been open to the media.

Also for the first time, the offense and defense will be permitted to work against each other in non-contact drills, including 7-on-7s and 11-on-11s. Previously, in three weeks of Phase II, the offensive and defensive units worked separately.

Therefore, it will be the first glimpse of Manziel throwing the ball and improvising since being discharged April 11th from the Caron Addiction Treatment Center in Pennsylvania, where he spent 10 weeks. One full OTA practice will be open to the media each of the next three weeks, but it's not yet known when Manziel will address the media for the first time since the end of last season.

When OTAs are over, the Browns will conduct their mandatory minicamp June 16-18. After that, veterans will mostly disperse until the end of training camp in July, and rookies will remain in town for the NFL rookie symposium June 23-27th.

By all accounts, Manziel -- who will take backup reps behind likely 2015 starter Josh McCown -- has been working hard and making great progress.

"Johnny's been great,'' offensive coordinator John DeFilippo said during rookie camp. "He's been fantastic. All I know is Johnny the football player, and he's been awesome. He's been working hard, very hard with myself and (quarterbacks coach Kevin O'Connell), and doing what we want him to do on the field."

DeFilippo has been impressed with Manziel's work ethic -- but former Browns offensive coordinator Kyle Shanahan was pleased with his effort too. It was the off-field issues that were the problem his rookie year.

"He's been nothing but a consummate professional,'' DeFilippo said. "He's spent every hour that he's been allowed to spend in this building. We give them worksheets every Tuesday and every Friday, and they're done to the unbelievable detail that we need an NFL quarterback to do. From that standpoint, like I said I can't predict the future, but all I can do is tell you right now Johnny Manziel is putting himself in a position to be a quarterback in the NFL."

Manziel moved from downtown hotspot The 9 to a quiet west side golf community, where Browns linebacker Paul Kruger is his neighbor. But he hasn't holed up in his house since leaving rehab. Manziel participated in the Browns Foundation golf outing last Friday, and he's attended Cavs playoffs games. He's played pickup basketball with Joe Haden and is schedule to play in the Joe Haden and Friends Celebrity softball game June 6th at Classic Park in Eastlake, Ohio. Manziel has also been seen out socially.

But cornerback Joe Haden, a close friend of Manziel's, has had heart to heart talks with the second-year pro and is convinced his head's in the right place.

"I can see just him trying to be involved a little bit more in the offense,'' Haden said. "(I see) him studying a lot more, him being in the facility a lot more. Him being involved with his coaches, just staying after and getting that one-on-one and being able to understand what he has to do. Just a different mentality. I'm really excited about it.''

Despite the fact Mike Pettine has sworn off a quarterback competition in training camp and has declared McCown the favorite to start the season, Haden believes Manziel will try to win the starting job.

"Oh for sure,'' Haden said at the golf outing. He's a competitor. I think it's all about competition. We have Josh McCown. We have Johnny. We have (Connor) Shaw. All those guys. Just all of them feel like they can win the starting job.

"Competition brings out the best in you and I think that's good for Johnny and all the other quarterbacks who are going to compete against each other.''

Haden says Manziel realizes now what he almost threw away.

"He said he took a lot of things for granted,'' said Haden. "Just being able to go back there and realize that he is in the NFL. He's living his dream. He's a quarterback in the National Football League and what that entitles him. I think he understands that and I'm very happy for him.''

Browns general manager, who drives competition at every position, also wouldn't count anyone out at this point in the offseason.

"That's Pett's call,'' he said at the Golf outing of Manziel's shot to start the opener. "But again, I watch the film, I evaluate guys and at the end of the day, the best man always wins in my mind. Whoever plays the best is who should play.''

He's also emphasized to Manziel that he has to come in and compete.

"This is still the National Football League,'' said Farmer. "There's no rest for the weary. We get it. We're supportive of him and his personal endeavors and he's got to come out and perform and demonstrate that he's worthy of being on the 53-man roster.''

But he's been encouraged by what he's seen from the post-rehab Manziel, who struggled mightily in his two rookie starts.

"When you see the guy throw the ball, he can throw it,'' said Farmer. "It looks good right now, so we'll see.''

Manziel will undoubtedly be given a chance to freelance in practice, the way he did when he was running the scout team last season.

"I'm the last guy - the last guy -- that's going to take Johnny Manziel's athleticism away from him,'' DeFilippo said. "I will not do that. I refuse to do that. ... Okay? And I told (former Raider) Terrelle Pryor the same thing. 'That's part of your game.' Now, we need to refine the other part to make you the complete quarterback.''' link

Is this Mel Kiper?

I am trying to talk football and this is your response? Was this your best effort at being insulting or is that my new name with you like Johnny rehab and Text that is just o so clever. this is the kind of crap that always ticks vers off so bad and I can understand why. Look we can talk football all you want but the other stuff isn't good for the board and I just dont want to waste my time responding to anymore of this type of stuff.

don't feed the troll

This isn't directed specifically at you Charger, you just happen to be the end of the thread....

But to the group at large:

Did it ever occur to anyone else that maybe, just maybe, Pettine might not think it's a good idea to tie Johhny's football success to Johhny's recovery and a key part of his coping/sobriety?

I mean think about it for a second. I can see how on the surface it would make sense to think that keeping himself tightly focused on football will keep him from thinking about that next drink.

But what happens if Johnny goes out and has a downright miserable game? Either cuz he craps the bed, or maybe the opposing defense just dominates?

What happens when fickle fans start to boo him?

If he starts feeling like a failure as a football player, logically he's going to start feeling like a failure in other aspects of his life.

Or on the flip side, what if he's out there having tremendous success? Doesn't he run the risk of feeling more in control of himself and his life, and there for the temptation to prove to himself he can control his drinking increases?

IMO football should NOT be intertwined with his sobriety. Its absolutely a great motivator, but he has to learn the discipline to maintain an entirely new lifestyle, being sober, before he can learn about the lifestyle of being a NFL professional.

Very good point Charger. The first year of sobriety is a critical time. Newly sober people (at least in the AA program) are counseled not to enter into strongly emotional relationships (no new girl/boy-friends) for the first year because the potential emotional highs and lows can both be triggers to return to past behaviors.

You point out the fan/crowd reactions could be a similar pitfall for Johnny and are suggesting that Pettine recognizes that.

I agree with what you said, but doesn't the discipline that he learns/needs in football also cascade into his personal life? Is it not a two-way street?

The problem I had with Mangini the RAT was just that... he was a RAT.

Notice he didn't rat on NE when he was with them. Rather he enjoyed the success that SpyGate helped them have. But as an opposing coach he took information that NE allowed him to be privy to and used it against them. In other words, he was fine with it when he was benefiting from it, but when the tables turned he suddenly becaame holier than thou. I felt that made him a rat and thus someone who is untrustworthy lacking integrity.

I actually hated him as a coach when he was here. But over the years since he's been gone I've come to understand his reasoning behind a lot of the things I didn't like about him.

He was a good coach who demanded accountability from his players and didn't waver from that. That was a good thing. On the other hand, in his pressers I never felt he held himself to the same accountability. He too often referred to the "process" to cover his own mistakes. On the sidelines his demeanor was one of not taking any responsibility for the bad things on the field, instead he acted like a woman scorned when things went wrong. I'd have rather he held those emotions in check and resolve himself to coach better.

But then there's another hand, he did win out the last 4 games in a season in which they'd not won a game previously. And he did it in a most unconventional manner. IIRC he won one game in which the QB had only 3 passing attempts. (if not that few it sure seemed so).

As I was expecting the next season to be a continuation of that, it didn't happen. Maybe it was the QBs he was saddled with. I'm sure he didn't choose them. But still, I did expect a better start.

I've always been a big Mangini fan. He started building a power/punch in the month team. He wanted a culture of arrogance.

His second year was derailed by Holmgren. Holmgren wasted a year trying to keep him. I never understood.

I understand fans who do not like Mangini. People didn't like it when Belichick tried establishing the same attitude. People hate it when team isn't winning. Once built and winning becomes a norm, fans change their opinion. I never understand why majority of fans have this allegiance to media personal. Media states whatever they want and fans follow like sheep. How many times did the NFL investigate reports and found nothing? Even today media still reports it as truth. When there is no accountability, you pretty much do whatever you want.

I personally think Pettine is building a similar culture. Mike's approach is more politically correct, and his GM is helping. It really boils down to do you like Baltimore or New England type organization.

I find it interesting fans who want a Green Bay or New Orleans organization. I have nothing against. I simply think it is so hard to build and sustain.

Agree! Much of it is opinion anyway it is obvious she pieced several stories to make this one. This story is almost as bad as her pre-draft commentaries!

Here we go again!!!!!

If you go strictly by record and do NOT look at talent you prove conclusively you ignorant. The good news for you Mac is your not alone.