DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Hoyer/McCown Debate and Scheme Fit/Cohesion

No, what I'm asking is if Hoyer and Manziel aren't answers you believe would take us to the promised land, what better solution do you have than having an awful season to have the best chance to land a franchise QB in the draft?

I'm not asking anyone to like a terrible season or advocate having one. I'm simply asking for a solution to the QB position that seems more likely than a very high draft pick.

We, the fans, will probably never know for certain who is at fault when there is an INT, unless the throw is clearly so poor that there is n doubt, or it the receiver falls down. The coaches do know, though. Given how hard it is to find a quality QB, if they decided to let Hoyer go without a struggle, that tells me that more were probably on him than anyone else.

All I can do is look at the equations logically and try to determine what adds up, and what doesn't.

Gordon was a problem, and he got benched.

Hoyer got benched after struggling.

That tells me that both guys had a hand in the passing game's struggles.

I also look at how many times Hoyer had receivers running ridiculously wide open, so wide open that I might have been able to hit them if I had anything approaching at NFL arm ......yet he either ignored them, or made such bad throws that he allowed the defense to close on the play, or allowed the defense to prevent what should have been a huge play.

Again, in the end, the coaches know what players were supposed to do on every play, and they chose not to fight to keep Hoyer, which tells me that he probably did not do what he was supposed to do on each play, as often as he should have.

Quite a few of us have been saying this is the plan for quite some time Pitt, where you been.

For me I want to just win perhaps the plan is to lose to win later????

This is the year baring injury JF will be the starter and we will either sink or swim with him, and if McCown should have to start we will have all but guaranteed we continue to lose, its sort of obvious. And makes to much sense not to be true....

Hoyer isn't coming back

Can we this topic die along with Mangini, Heckert, Big show, Shurmur, and Chud, please?

my bad bro

I believe the plan must be to go with JFF be it sink or swim. That looks like the only viable plan there could be.

I'm just not so sure this FO feels that's a losing proposition. From what I've seen there hasn't been any evidence shown to believe in JFF to this point. But I will say if it were me that had chose to draft him (and believe me it wouldn't have been), I would have to have enough confidence in my decision to see it through.

thus i say setting pettin up to fail.

Invent a time machine and go back to last year's draft and pick Teddy instead of Johnny, just like I told the idiot to do.

Pit, I believe the reason Hoyer is gone is because the players knew he was better than Johnny. Farmer got rid of him because he did not want any true competition for JM.

They signed McCown to lick Johnny's cleats and be there in case Johnny has a relapse.

This strategy might work out and it has an equal--or greater--chance of being an epic fail.

I believe the reason Hoyer is gone is because the players knew he fell apart the second half of the season when they needed him to step up the most and when he failed to do so he let the receivers take the blame for his poor play, so the players lost trust in him.

Provide one shred of evidence for that.

Before you ask me to do the opposite, I will provide the fact that Joe Thomas supported Hoyer:



You're up.

One player is all you have?

So you believe Joe Thomas he said...

In an exclusive interview with NFL Media's Andrea Kremer, Cleveland's Pro Bowl left tackle heaped praise on Johnny after saying earlier this month that the Browns passer "lost probably a lot of trust" among teammates with the way he handled himself as a rookie.

"The way he is now is night and day from last year," Thomas said Tuesday."He has a bright future ahead of him."

Said Thomas: "As one of the leaders, it'll be my job to talk to him sometimes, (but) he's already impressed a lot of people here now in the last couple of weeks."

Pro Bowl cornerback Joe Haden told Kremer that Manziel has been a workhorse around the facility, staying later to study the new offense.

"He has the it-factor. He has what you can't teach," said Haden, adding: "Actions speak louder than words. He's putting forth those actions. That's all he can do."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000...-from-last-year

...you think Hoyer will have a bright future in the NFL because Joe Thomas said so?

He even has Haden saying he has the "it factor" so it must be true!

You didn't supply evidebce for this statemant...

Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog

" I believe the reason Hoyer is gone is because the players knew he was better than Johnny. Farmer got rid of him because he did not want any true competition for JM.

They signed McCown to lick Johnny's cleats and be there in case Johnny has a relapse."


You're up!

Teddy was 6-6 so maybe the Vikes should have tried to sign Hoyer 7-6 the guy with the better record last season...as you keep saying it's all about the WINS! What idiots the Vikes staff must be.

Honestly Pit, No, I don't think Hoyer could have taken us to the SB much less win it. I feel the same about McCown. As for Manziel, I'm not feeling good at all, but the jury is out.

McCown could very well be the guy that could tank so we could get a high pick, but frankly, he won't get the chance. Before it goes that far, Pettine will bench him and insert someone else.

The best possible answer for us is that Manziel gets "it" and becomes a good QB. That would be Ideal.

Pit we need to find our Tom Brady, or our Russell Wilson, colin Kaepernick, Drew Brees, Tony Romo or one of these guys who was taken outside the top ten Joe Flacco 18, Jay Cutler 11, Andy Dalton 35, Aaron Rodgers 24, Big Ben 11, or hell even Derek Carr 36 or Teddy Bridgewater at 32

It doesn't matter who the QB is this year..

The overall level of talent around him is going to push this team at least out of the Top 10 of next years draft..

I can't see a scenario where we win less than 6 games.. I could see us winning more than that.. Hell we could potentially start 3-0 with the way the schedule is set up..

Am I predicting playoffs this year? No, I think we can compete with almost everyone on our schedule.. it's far from a doom and gloom 2 win season most people seem to expect.. And some people seem to prefer..

Hoyer couldn't carry the load for an entire season. He proved that last year as his play did nothing but regress at the end of the season. His completion percentage was among the worst in the league even when we were winning games, and his accuracy and mechanics down right stunk to end the year. He was completely ineffective in games where our running offense didn't work and anytime he faced a physical defense he was completely exposed and shut down (Jaguars, Texans, Bills, Colts and even the Panthers to a degree). Hoyer had some nice moments, but he's a 30 year old backup with a below average arm. To top this all off he was a diva last year with the media about his poor play, never really owning up to any of the blame directly.

Those are the reasons why the front office didn't feel the need to pay him the amount of money he wanted.

Those are the reasons Hoyer isn't here.

The idea that Pettine/Farmer/Haslam gave Hoyer the boot cause he's better than Johnny Manziel and would give him too much competition is a load of crap.

I'm not endorsing McCown or Manziel, but Hoyer has been placed on a ridiculous pedestal by some of the fans on this board.

I agree but did you look at it from every angle?

For instance 9 of his Ints came over 5 games all with Gordon in..

Here is a real kicker most people will tell you that the Cincy game was his best of the year do you know he had zero TD's in that game? Just shows you that stats aren't always leading more like misleading at times. In that game and really many of our games he got us to or near the goal line and watched the RB punch it in, but one might be misled by purely looking at the stat line.

I TRY to guard against just looking at stats and try not to just look for what I want to find.

Was Hoyers footwork so bad because his primary (Gordon) should have come open but ran the wrong route and then in desperation he thru the ball poorly elsewhere because the heat was coming. I changed my family room DVR and only have games from 2010 to 2013 but if I had those game tapes I would be looking. I think someone on here had the coaches tape feature they have on NFL.com it would be great to have excess to that tape and have a good look. I don't know and freely admit it, but the guy was chugging along with 3 ints thru 9 games and in the last 5 he throws 9???

The easy thing and the thing many did was just blame it all on Hoyer. Many because they wanted to see Johnny play so it was fun for them to watch what they thought was Hoyer's collapse. I just have a hard time believing that a guy can go 9 games with 3 then get 9 in the following 5. Could have been totally on him could of been he was given some help and when Gordon admitted he didn't know the playbook it sort of shed a light on where he was at. Some of the pick throws were to Gordon and it was pretty damned obvious he ran the wrong route.

But in order to make an honest assessment you need more info then we have and my bet is its a lot more complicated then its ALL Hoyers fault... Like I said he had help would be my bet and I'm 99% on that.

God dude do you just copy and paste this same crap everyday?? Don't you have an original thought outside of this crap..

Really dude Hoyer had the either the highest or near the highest per completion yardage too, which if you truly annualized it that means he wasn't dumping the ball off to his backs and that means your completion percentage goes down usually but you just quote pure stats well here is one for ya.

10-6 with Hoyer
1-15 without

Guess which one I want???

I'll take a QB with a low completion percentage that wins games all day and twice on Sunday its meaningless yet you can't figure it out.... I guess you better stick with copy and paste.

Same crap?

or same truth?

Should I just moan and complain that he's gone? Or chew out posters who disagree with me?

He beat a handful of below average/bad teams last year and was absolutely ineffective against teams with good defenses. Veteran QB's that have been in the league shouldn't break down and REGRESS during the course of a season. That's what rookies and young players do.

Had our front office thought he was worth building around he would still be here, but he's not.

That's it.

I guess one would have to then ask...... If a WR continues to run the wrong routes over and over, why would you keep throwing the ball to him?

out of recievers. remember austin got hurt.

Neither you wanted Sam Bradford.

Then it would've been Bradford 0-1, as all it will take is a single game before he blows his knee out again.

Yep, Gordon was the only WR we had on the field!

who else? really? two that would not even be on another nfl roster? a slot reciever playing out of position?

They seemed to play fine earlier in the season. Did they suddenly forget how to catch the ball when Gordon came back?

Taylor Gabriel, Andrew Hawkins and Travis Benjamin weren't problems last season. In fact, Hawkins and Gabriel I think would be effective WR's on A LOT of NFL rosters. They're undersized and played out of position last season (as both are slot guys), but they weren't necessarily problems. I agree completely that none of them are legit #1 or #2 receivers that should play on the outside, but I'd call Hawkins & Gabriel a pleasant surprise.

Gordon & company running the wrong routes doesn't fully explain why Hoyer struggled with his mechanics, footwork and accuracy. It also doesn't excuse the FACT that he struggled against all of the tougher defenses he faced.

Not bashing him. Just giving my input.

Everyone is quoting that Hoyer won the 2013 Buffalo game. I'm sorry.. I was a baseball coach. I do not see how ANYONE can say Hoyer won the game. The Browns were losing 10 - 0 when Hoyer left the game and did not return. Hoyer was 2/4 passing for 25 yards with 0 TDs... repeat.. the Browns had not scored when Hoyer left the game and were losing 10 - 0. Weeden came in to play and the Browns ended up winning 37 - 24.

I'm not saying Weeden played great.. he was 13/24 with 1 TD, but the Browns scored 37 points during the time Weeden was the QB. In baseball terms.. this was not a save opportunity, Weeden gets the win. Talk all you want about the Browns being 9 - 6 under Hoyer.. and I will agree whole heartedly, but saying he WON 10 out of 16 games a ridiculous attempt to blow up stats to back an agenda. Say he was 9 - 6 with a no decision and I will agree.

jmho

That's how I see it too.

Again, am I the only one who see's some of this stuff?

There is a saying: It's not how you START....It's how you FINISH.


You can bicker back and forth all you want. Talk about all the wins BH got us. Never played in a meaningful game in Dec. since '07...Blah Blah Blah. The FACT is he stunk up the joint when it counted the most. Where are all the posts that say we are 9-6 with BH, BUT we could have been or SHOULD have been 12-6 and in the PO hunt. He is as much the REASON we are NOT as he is the REASON we WERE winning.

Why is everybody talking about Gordon like Hoyer wasn't regressing even before gordon came back from suspension?

because he only had 2 bad games before gordon came back.

And your point is?

No its the same crap every day, day in day out. Copy and paste, copy and paste..... New day same post.