DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel...continued again!...

Still wish we would have kept DQ over Dansby, and Ward over Whitner?

I'm happy with Donte Whitner. He's been a fantastic leader for this team and a real breath of fresh air. Slightly better in pass coverage than Ward was too.

However, I wish we could have kept Jackson AND signed Dansby. Jackson clearly lost a step in pass coverage, but he could have helped us defend the run last season. Say what you will about him, but he always played the run exceptionally well.

I have to disagree. He got manhandled by OL, and struggled to disengage from blocks in the run game. He was OK in the 4-3, but has struggled in the 3-4. He racks up tackle numbers, but most of his tackles are well down the field. Dansby is far, far superior in this regard, and is a better pass defender as well. I think that Kirksey is proving to be a better overall 3-4 ILB than DQ, and Robertson made huge steps forward last year.

I have long wanted us to get Dansby as a free agent. Every year he went elsewhere, though. Usually it was because "we had DQ". I was extremely happy when we made that particular swap.

Also, DQ wasn't going to stay here if he had to cut his salary, and he was being paid like a top ILB ..... but was not performing to that level. His cap number was slated to be $8.1 million, with $4.1 million of that due in bonuses. Does anyone think that DQ is worth that?

Dansby came in and signed a 4 year deal worth $24 million. His cap number will never hit what DQ's was. His production is far superior to DQ's as well. (especially impact plays) I was quite pleased with that "trade" of DQ for Dansby, as I have never liked DQ as a 3-4 ILB, and have long liked Dansby as a player.

That is a lie. DQ said he would redo his deal so to say otherwise is a lie. I agree with much of what you said but I won't ignore the lie.

DQ was horrible against the run. If a linemen was able to lock up hands on him, DQ was outta the picture or making tackles down field and passed the line of scrimmage. His instinct now had him in the right places, but his size/strength didn't allow him to fully take advantage of his keen instincts.

Karlos, now watch him play the run. Very effective IMO. Karlos is also, without doubt, more physical than DQ was. And to even keep continuing to yab on here, I think Karlos is superior in pass coverage too.
All JMO

What DQ said was he would stay had they paid him the roster bonus, which I think was $4 million, but maybe it was $3 million.

He refused to take a pay cut, citing stability, and said that if he was going to take a pay cut, he might as well play in a more stable environment. (which definitely had some merit at the time)

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Mary Kay Cabot
‏@MaryKayCabot
D'Q Jackson said #Browns tried to restructure his contract, but the number wasn't right for him and "I want to go somewhere with stability''

There areother reports you can find if you look.

Mary Kay Cabot is lying!

Fair enough about the points made regarding D'Qwell Jackson. I looked up some numbers, and yes he did rank high in tackles and assists but as an ILB he never received very many high rankings for his actual performances and impact plays. Having watched a highlight video of Dansby on my lunch break I would say that yes, he certainly does a lot of things better than Jackson.

I was still disappointed to see him go, maybe cause he was a long time Brown and was such a good guy in the community and off the field.

Oh I agree, DQ was a great community guy, (other than beating up a pizza guy, or whatever that was that happened) and was always a stand up guy in the locker room. I don't think that anyone debates that. Unfortunately his ability on the field, in the 3-4 defense, just wasn't good enough to continue to pay him huge money.

DQ actually was a decent 4-3 MLB. When he had the extra DL to keep the OL off of him, he could make plays. He has always struggled in the 3-4 though.

The reason we got rid of DQ and Ward was because Banner did not like the way they were appearing to accept defeat. To often seen chucking it up after giving up big plays. I was upset when we let them go but Banner was correct and as much as I still dont like the guy, those moves are proving to be excellent moves.

Not a fan of Banner but he wasn't the reason DQ and Ward weren't kept. Banner had already been given his walking papers well before FA started. Farmer was responsible for letting them both walk. Personally, I think he got it 50/50.

Who cares...He didn't want to be a Brown. That's all we really need to know.

I believe DQ was released not because he didn't produce tackles, but WHERE he produced the tackles. He simply didn't attack the runner. The runner had to come to him. A lot of his tackles were 5 to 7 yards beyond the LOS.

Which was a long standing tradition for most of our ILB from 1999 until last year finally broke the trend.

DQ, Andra Davis, The kid who busted his head on his helmet to get ready for the season, and whose name escapes me .... they were all held up as some great example of what an ILB should be, because they could tackle 5-10 yards downfield.. It wasn't until last year, with Dansby, that many people seemed to come to understand that just tackling isn't enough, but making an impact on the field is what makes a great ILB.

Can someone please tell me that dude's name? For whatever reason I can see his face in my head but can't pull the name and now it's driving me nuts.

Earl Holmes ?? Andra Davis ?

YT, are you talking about Speegle? He was one of the great overhyped scrubs in the new era.

Dwayne Rudd?

Wali Rainer, wasn't it?

Early signs point to Josh McCown being unchallenged as Browns starting quarterback

Moving the chains: The first week of Browns OTAs was a revelation of where the team is going offensively and who is going to lead them.

Their aim is to control the ball on the ground, have the quarterback manage the game and keep the defense in favorable situations.

The job description for quarterback is a modest one and must be embraced, not challenged. He must be willing to play within the structure of a conservative game plan. He must be content to “live for another down” and not try something daring to make a play by himself.

This is why the Browns signed Josh McCown, a 13-year NFL veteran who has played for six teams, and why McCown has been virtually anointed the starting quarterback without even the hint of a “competition” in training camp.

It is why Johnny Manziel – tortured enough by his own personal recovery from an unspecified substance abuse problem – is a fish out of water in his second season with the Browns.

Manziel didn’t become Johnny Football by handing off or flipping the ball 5 yards to a back in the flat.

The Browns aren’t trying to reinvent Manziel. They are, by all appearances, moving on.

It’s Josh: It all makes sense already, the Browns’ aggressive pursuit of easy-mannered McCown. Brian Hoyer was in a different stage of his career, still determined to prove he could carry a team, too edgy to go with the flow.

McCown, soon to be 36, knows his place and his limitations.

“My focus is just how good can I be at decision-making,” McCown said before the Browns completed their first week of OTA practices. “Just holding myself to a high standard, where it never puts us in a bad situation and the defense is always playing with favorable fields. That’s what I hope people see as we move into the season.”

In 12 NFL seasons, McCown has never thrown for more than 2,511 yards and more than 13 touchdowns. When he found himself in surprising demand after a disastrous season with Tampa Bay, he was more attracted to the team with the strong offensive line than one with flashy receivers.

“After being with them, 5-6 weeks, it’s like, had I known it was this good I wouldn’t even needed to take a (free agent) visit (to Buffalo and Chicago),” McCown said of the Browns’ offensive line.

While many quarterbacks chafe at the job description of “game manager,” McCown embraces it.

“Yeah, man, look, that stuff doesn’t bother me,” he said. “I’m trying to win … we’re trying to win a championship. Call it what you want to call it. I just want to win football games.

“That’s my main focus, and it’s to protect the football, keep our team in manageable situations. I know the perception of it, but I think every quarterback to a degree has to be a game manager. He has to manage the football game and some guys have different skill sets that dictate the way they do that. I understand who I am and how I want to go about winning football games, and that’s the key for us.”

What about Johnny?: The only day media were allowed in to view one of the three OTA practices, Manziel looked unchanged from his rookie year. He was not assertive with knowing where to go with the ball and ran too much for an OTA practice.

A person who witnessed a practice after the open media session said that Manziel was worse the second day.

It’s probably understandable, considering what he’s been through in the offseason, a battle with something that defeated him.

Manziel has received numerous voices of support from teammates and coaches, who say he is doing all the right things, putting in long hours, asking the right questions in meetings. First guy in, last guy out.

But there also have been cautionary remarks about Manziel “taking one day at a time” and reminders that his “actions speak louder than his words.”

Off the field, Manziel has received passing marks. On the field, handcuffed from doing what McCown called “the ESPN stuff,” Manziel’s skills don’t coincide with what the Browns are asking of their quarterback.

That has got to be eating him up.


http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&post_id=45541

That was the type of article I was afraid of reading. Was really hoping to get the "Manziel is lighting it up in practice article".

Then again it is Grossi who's article yesterday had this gem of a negative slant "Mack returns as his replacement is being groomed". Is there a bigger hack than that guy? Wow.

He might not have a job if the Browns ever become good. Where would he come up with material?

I don't think so but still don't know. There's nothing on Google regarding the hitting himself but I remember it. Rainer was Man of the Year and I don't think missed any regular season games.

This is an instance where both my memory and Google has failed haha.

And, just like Keyser Soze....*POOF*, Upbeat is gone from the thread.

It was somewhere in the middle... he was willing to negotiate the salary as long as he could keep the bonus. Makes complete sense to me. It was just time to move on for both parties and he got a nice deal from Indy he wouldn't have gotten had he restructured his contract losing the bonus and got cut end of camp.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/02/former_cleveland_brown_lb_dqwe.html

Former Cleveland Browns LB D'Qwell Jackson: "I was more than willing to restructure''

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Browns linebacker D'Qwell Jackson, the undisputed leader of the Browns and most beloved player on the team, said Wednesday that he was "more than willing to restructure'' his contract to remain with the Browns, but that the two sides couldn't agree on the number.

"My agent Brian Mackler and I made the decision that if I was going to take that offer I'd go somewhere else where there's a little bit more stability and a situation that's a little bit better for me,'' Jackson said in an exclusive interview with Northeast Ohio Media Group. "I told (GM) Ray Farmer I think I've been a strong soldier for eight years and I just felt like -- we both did -- we couldn't come up with a number and we both felt like it was better for both sides just to move on.''

Jackson stressed that it's bittersweet, "but at this point in my career, I gave Cleveland everything I had. This time around I have a chance to choose where I want to go. I've saved my money and it's time for me to experience something different. I hate to say it, but I think it was necessary.''

He added, "there was a time when I thought I was out of the league three years ago. The good thing about this situation is I had a good year, I'm healthy and that's all I can ask for. I know I have job.''

Jackson, 30, was released on Wednesday instead of the Browns paying him the $4.0 million roster bonus due March 16 and a $100,000 workout bonus. Jackson, who signed a five-year contract extension two years ago through 2016 worth $42.5 million -- including $19 million in guarantees and bonuses, was due to make $3.93 million this season.

His salaries for 2015 and 2016 were $7.73 million and $7 million, respectively. The Browns will have $4.2 million in dead money on the books for him this year. If he had stayed, his cap number would've been $9.43 million.

"I definitely would've stayed if they would've payed the $4 million bonus,'' Jackson said. "I want to be around when Cleveland turns the corner. My feeling was always that 'this year is going to be the year.' There wouldn't have been any doubt in my mind that I wanted to be in Cleveland.''

The longest tenured member of the Browns at eight seasons, Jackson is currently a free agent and can sign with any team. His agent was already fielding calls from numerous teams within minutes after Jackson's release and he's expected to begin making visits on Friday.

"I'm willing to go to 31 other teams at this point,'' Jackson said. "Obviously I'm looking for a place that has some type of stability, someplace that a guy that's been around and you know he's not going to be out in two years. I don't have a crystal ball or anything but ideally that's going to probably have a lot of weight in determining my decision in where I go.''

Mackler said the issue with Jackson was that "we needed a commitment from the Browns that D'Qwell was going to be with the Browns for the next two to three years. They couldn't provide that, so we decided to have a mutual split.''

Mackler said he's never seen anything like the outpouring of support for Jackson from all over the league.

"In 24 years of doing this, D'Qwell has been one of the most respected people in the business that I've ever come across, whether you're talking about players, coaches or front office people,'' said Mackler. "The people that have left this organization value what he brings on and off the field. D'Qwell won't have a lack of suitors, and he'll have a choice of where he wants to go.''

Jackson, the Browns second-round pick in 2006 out of Maryland, admitted it would be tough to make the playoffs next year with another team.

"It'll be exciting for the simple fact that I'm in the playoffs, but then I'll feel like I'm cheating on Cleveland the first year I'm gone, because I wanted to do it in Cleveland,'' he said. "It will be exciting, but at the same time, I wish my brothers in Cleveland could experience it if they don't make the playoffs this year.''

Jackson's leadership ability was unparalleled in the Browns locker room. He held the team together through the trade of Trent Richardson last season and through subsequent rumors that Josh Gordon was on the trading block. He also guided the locker room through the suspension of Joe Haden for Adderall use in 2013 and through the firings of numerous coaches.

Jackson, who missed all but six games in 2009-10 with torn pectoral muscles, played for four different head coaches in his eight years here. He was miffed this year after the Browns fired Rob Chudzinski, and began growing weary of the upheaval.

"Every time a move happens like that, you think about it,'' said Jackson. "It's just a natural reaction. I didn't see it coming. I remember being asked about it in Pittsburgh and it was bizarre. I was angry. I couldn't believe people would start a rumor like that.''

Jackson felt like he was in good standing with the team until CEO Joe Banner and GM Mike Lombardi were let go Feb. 11.

"After that, I didn't know what to expect,'' he said. "I thought I was going to be here when they were still here, but there's no definite truth to that. That's just my natural feel. The decision was made quickly and they have some guys they have to take care of, Jordan Cameron, Josh Gordon. I'm not upset, because I know it's going to leave them room to take care of those guys when those guys are up.''

Jackson acknowledged that going 41-87 in his eight years took its toll. He never made the playoffs and experience only one winning season, the 10-6 campaign of 2007.

"Losing year after year, it sucks,'' said Jackson. "What I learned early on probably four years ago, you dig deep to find your strength during all that losing. find..and I was so optimistic when I was there in Cleveland -- I felt like we could win every game. I felt every year like we would go to the playoffs and win the Super Bowl. But my fear of losing that desire to play the game is what drove me to prepare and play hard.''

Jackson said he consulted with former teammates such as Scott Fujita, Mike Adams (Pops) and Eric Barton to make his decision. He watched Adams go to the Super Bowl this year with Denver after years of losing in Cleveland.

"All the guys that have left and have gone on to win -- Phil (Dawson) made a big kick and I was texting him and Pops is one of my good friends, so we keep in touch and he would tell me he loved Cleveland,'' said Jackson. "There's something about being in Cleveland. The guys are close. The guys go through tough times together, and at the same time he's experiencing a different locker room, he's experiencing something totally different and it re-energizes you. That's what I'm excited for. But it's tough. It really is.''

Jackson said he made a pros and con sheet and it opened his eyes to what he needed to do.

"What really made my decision easier was that the same cons that I had now were the cons I had five years ago,'' he said. "So something had to change.''

He said it will be interesting to watch from afar and see who fills the leadership void. He trained the young players such as Joe Haden, T.J. Ward and Tashaun Gipson well.

"I hope they take care of T.J.,'' he said. "The leaders will come from guys like T.J and Joe Haden and Paul Kruger and Quentin Groves. Whoever separates himself as the leader, that's going to be interesting to watch.''

He said the toughest part for him is leaving all the guys he's become so close to.

"That's the part that's tough is leaving the guys,'' said Jackson. "I thought we had a good group last year. We finally have the guys in the locker room to take that next step. It's just when are we going to stick behind a coaching staff that can develop these guys? I've met with the new coaches, I've met with coach Pettine, and they seem like great people and they're on the right mission, so I wish them all the luck.''

Jackson, who played every snap but one last year, said it wasn't a matter of fitting into Pettine's new defense, a hybrid multi-front scheme.

"In eight years I've had five or six defensive coordinators and the benefit I've had is I've played in the majority of defenses teams are playing,'' he said. "And I've thrived in most of them so I don't think that's the case. I also have to take into account am I going to play a certain amount of snaps? Can I for the next three to five years with this amount of snaps on my body. You really have to take that into account.''

Jackson said he takes consolation in the fact the Browns can use some of his money to re-do the contracts of Haden, possibly Ward and others.

"That's the way I'm dealing with it,'' he said. "That those guys that worked extremely hard, now it's their turn to be able to stay around as long as I did and be around the community.''

Jackson also expressed his gratitude to Browns fans every where in a statement released by the team: "Eight years ago I began a journey that blessed me with the opportunity to be a part of a wonderful organization and community. I want to take this time to thank each and every one of you for opening your arms and hearts to my family and me, and for making Cleveland an easy place to love and call home. It’s been an honor playing in front of you.

“I also would like to thank the Browns players, coaches and staff for their tireless work and commitment. From the bottom of my heart, I thank you all and will always carry you with me."

Farmer also said in a statement, "We had positive discussion with D’Qwell and his agent over the last several days, and we came to the mutual agreement to go in different directions. D’Qwell is the epitome of class, leadership and professionalism. Every day of his NFL career, D’Qwell has been a solid representative of the Browns and the City of Cleveland, both between the lines on Sundays and off the field in our area community. We want to thank him for his eight years of service and wish him nothing but the best in his future endeavors.”

Jackson, who's expected to hear from plenty of his former Browns coordinators, said he's eager to test the waters.

"It's going to be exciting to see who wants me and I've never been a free agent before,'' he said. "This is all new territory.''

And a new venture for the Browns without their trusted leader.

I don't think that he missed any time because of it, but it was like a badge of honor when he busted the bridge of his nose on his helmet.

Grossi has pretty much been blackballed from the Browns. He isnt going to say anything positive about them. NFL network was there and basically said day 1 johnny showed some things, hit a few good deep balls but he was picked on one and had a few to many hit the ground. Okay day but nothing more for a first day.

Johnny may never develop beyond what we have seen but its the first week of OTAs

Thanks Cleve for posting the piece I was too busy to go look myself but I remember distinctly seeing a video of Jackson saying he would have redone his deal.

The End

Except it's not.

I posted one article where he said, basically, that if the money was going to be cut, then he was moving to a team with a better chance of carrying him ...err. I mean, winning. There are many others, and if you want to leave your comfort zone, you can easily fine them.

DQ also said this:

"I definitely would've stayed if they would've payed the $4 million bonus..."

Which would have quickly added to the many dumb things done in Cleveland for a while now

So there's that.

What's so dumb about them not wanting to pay $8.1 million to a very average ILB, who did not fit the defense we were going to play?

I don't understand how so many people were all upset about him leaving. If we had been going to the 4-3, then maybe I could see keeping DQ. In the 3-4, though, he simply cannot get off of blocks to make plays at or near the LOS.

I'll take Dansby in the 3-4 10 days out of 10 over DQ, and it isn't even close. When you also add in the leadership aspect, and it's an even huger (is that a word?) slam dunk.

Well they payed the same money and a bit more to Dansby and I don't see a huge difference in production and without looking I would say statistically they're just not that far apart although you seem to think they are. In a foot race Dansby loses to DQ every time which may not seem important until you have to cover someone or yes catchup and tackle them from behind.

I think your mistaken about Dansby being better he simply isn't. The Browns sucked when DQ was here against the run and they sucked last year without him and with Dansby. You say he couldn't shed blockers well neither could Dansby, and you know what both players performances are tied more then you would ever want to believe to the guys in front of them. LBers for the most part see a huge drop in production when the fatties get in their way, but somehow you seem unable to make the connection.

I liked DQ and I like Dansby their both fine players but on the field there isn't a difference that is noticeable. I think the Browns wanted Dansby for his locker room team building ability more so then there was this huge upgrade your failing to demonstrate, because it simply doesn't exist.

BTW Willie was agreeing with you.............I think???

having gone to Maryland, I was as big of a DQ homer as anybody but...


That was the problem, DQ made too may tackles by catching people from behind.. Dansby makes more plays downhill toward the LOS. If DQ and Dansby both had 10 tackles in a game, Dansby's would be for about 35 yards gained and DQs would be for 55 or 60... but on paper they both had 10 tackles.

YTown...you misread me or I mis-typed.

'Dumb' would have been giving him the 4.1 mil...or 8.2 mil...or $100 even.

Good guy...exceptionaly below average MLB in a 3-4.

Opps. Mibad.

Sorry about that.

DQ was going to make $8.1 Million. Dansby averages $6 million. I am not sure how you get that this is "quite a bit more", unless you take into account the total deal, which he may, or may not play all the way out.

As for you saying that DQ is a better player than Dansby, especially in the 3-4, I don't now how you could have watched Browns football for the past 2 years and arrive at that conclusion.

Dansby plays the game attacking, and moving forward. DQ plays the game cautiously, and falling back. DQ makes a lot of tackles, but very few of impact. He'll stop a guy 10 yards down the field, but he'll also get caught up in the wash if he has to attack the LOS. I will say that DQ did better in that regard on occasion last year, but he absolutely sucked in that regard in 2013.

As to demonstrate this:

In 2013, we had a LB who had 9 tackles for loss.

Name him.

We had 2 LB who had 5 tackles for loss each.

Who were they?

We had another LB who had 4 tackles for loss.

Who was he?

We had yet another who had 3 tackles for loss.

Then we had one LB, a full time starter and player, who managed only 1 tackle for loss the entire year.

Name him.

Be specific and give example of how Dansby impacted the run game/ passing game that was better then DQ. You can't.

You can't connect the dots that explain why a good player like Dansby had a minimal effect and one can easily say there was no benefit to stopping the run from having Dansby here over DQ. Those are simple truth.

With DQ we sucked against the run.

With Dansby we sucked against the run.

What is the difference?

I didn't think that much of Karlos Dansby until he was injured last year against the Texans. He didn't necessarily stick out to me while he was playing, but I noticed a HUGE difference (not for the better) in the running defense with him off the field. While I don't think he was a monster run stuffer, our run defense went from below average with him on the field, to TERRIBLE with him off the field.

BTTB makes a good point. Our run defense has been consistently bad regardless of whose been at ILB for us.

I did notice Dansby was faster, and a lot more competent as far as his pass coverage goes.