DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns mini camp...Phase 3: May 26-29, June 1-4, June 8-12

I'm still not convinced we didn't try to sign him, but it was stalled when $ came in to play. We could have paid him a bunch of money, but given the way he ended the season (not all his fault)I don't think the Browns thought he'd be worth it.



I was and remain totally opposed to the Bradford deal. You can't count on him. He defines injury prone.

No doubt he could have been one of the great ones... but



I don't believe that ANYONE thinks that this FO and Staff are perfect. Not even Eo.

Who's PF?

I hope we win 10 games this year but even if we lose 10 games it is imperative we stay the course with what we have and continue to build on it. We all know our qb situation at this time and our tough schedule so it is possible to lose that many games. If the games are close and we are competitive that would be a plus for the team.

Pig Face for Mike Holmgren. It's his nickname for FO people he doesn't like and thinks, for whatever reason, that it's clever. He now has one for Farmer..."Text". Again, very cute.

What were Mangini's and Banner's nicknames?

"Paul Brown 2.0" and "The Savior" I think that's what he called them.

LOL.

Will good Josh McCown be better than bad Brian Hoyer?

I can't imagine him being any worse...

Even with Hoyer the 2014 Browns relied on the running game to win. When we couldn't run, we didn't win. That's it.

If we can't run the ball in 2015 we won't win, no matter whose under center.

Hoyer proved he can't carry the team when everything around him isn't going perfect.

I'd rather have him over McCown, but I cannot see how Hoyer was irreplaceable.

He's gone though, so the back and fourth debating over his Jekyll and Hyde play last year is just a waste of our energy!

it was another poster who didn't like Gabriel - I liked him.

However - when you are evaluating the talent level of the team vs the rest of the NFL - when evaluating the talent level of your team .... where players were selected in the draft, has no bearing or relevance.

That was one great post Rish.

The problem is this everyone wants continuity but they have different versions of who the players should be.

I know a lot of posters on this board think I want Text gone and I don't I want him to do better and I think he can. Oft times people focus on the 1st part with me and leave the last part out, the "I think he can part". I want stability within the organization itself and I want Text to stick to his job and only his job, thats important because if your focused on someone else s job your not doing yours. And then everything sort of falls apart because we all hate micromanaging and second guessing. From there folks develop a dislike for one another and then it just goes to dysfunctional.

I as do we all tend to focus on what we disagree with, or don't like, we all do it. Don't take that as a desire to watch it implode again cause I don't want that.

I hated that they let Hoyer walk, we won games with Hoyer and all's we have done with anyone else is lose. I saw Bradford as a chance to change all that, but it didn't work out. I think Flip had a huge roll in McCown coming here and its fair for him to have his guy I think when all is said and done Flip will lose his job because of it. You and I know fans aren't looking for us to go backwards even if they preach patience.

I also think Text has done real well at finding roll players but has come up short on impact players, but you can get there by just being a very solid team that makes few mistakes. Its worked for years for BB and it certainly can work here.

Probably my biggest gripe at the moment is that organizationally most driven by our lack of talent at the position we have adopted the theory that we can somehow manage or minimize the QB position and that is totally out of step with conventional thinking which I strongly agree with. You simply IMO can't minimize the QB spot I don't give a rats ass how much you run the ball or for that matter how great your O line is. You can minimize it only to a degree but we have nearly reached the point that one could easily make a case for ignoring it completely.

I think fans are going to be hugely disappointed in the end, and it will be interesting to see how well they hold up come the end of the season.

I think we have some of the pieces to be good but we are missing the most important piece. I think fans will switch over to the dark side, but it won't be me. I'm for staying with what we got provided Text stays off the phone with the sidelines that is. But we have what we need from an organizational HC position. We need to do better and I think we will if we can stop trying to minimize the QB position but instead actually address it.

But nice post Rish well said.

BTW Rish your buddy is a manure spreader a bald faced one at that....................

Nice. Btw---------BTB didn't care for Banner.


Anyway..........other than Rish, no one is addressing some of the points I tried to bring up. Let me try again:


--Most of you are saying that we need continuity and need to give Farmer time. That one year is not enough to evaluate him. I agree w/that stance. I do think his mistakes need to be identified so he can improve in those areas, but I am all for keeping him.

--What troubles me is that the very same people did not say the same thing about Banner. They called him one of The Three Stooges and complained about him daily. Why wasn't continuity an issue then.

--Even more troubling is those same poster's opinions on Hoyer. He won more games than he lost, yet they only point to a FOUR GAME STRETCH as PROOF that he sucked. What happened to giving a guy a chance to prove himself over time? What happened to continuity? What happened to not running guys off at the first hint of trouble?

--One more thing that I find disturbing. How can people not admit that losing three Pro Bowl offensive players was perhaps a big part of the reason why our scoring went down? How was it all on Hoyer? Are you saying Weeden played better than Hoyer? Seriously?


It's situations like the above that makes me doubt the sincerity and trustworthiness of so many of you. Many of these arguments are not fueled by logic and reason or approached w/fairness. They seem to always resort to "Regime Wars" and people choose a side and stick to it no matter what truths are available.

Have a nice day.

I didn't really have an opinion one way or the other on Banner if the truth be told, I was willing to let it play out although I confess to being overjoyed at the dismissal of PF.

I actually liked some of his moves because they made sense to me the biggy was getting rid of Richardson and getting a 1st was nothing short of brilliant but thats also the move that set the fan base on fire for the guy. But me I didn't like Richardson because he sucked, so as I did then and I still do oddly enough to this day give the guy huge Kudos for that move.

But the Banner thing is a total fabrication just so you all know the truth... The guy who is making this stuff up is a fabricator... Not worth my time....

Banner showed no respect for the Browns nor their fans when he brought in Lombardi. They even tried to sneak him in the back door and hid him from pressers. I said it the day they hired Lombardi that he would be the reason of Banner's demise and it was.

No one had any issues with Banner from day 1,other than I think it was Mac for how Banner had treated his veteran players. After Banner let the conflict between Lombardi and Chud result in another overhaul with chud being fired,what support Banner had was gone at that point and then with the reports of how disrepectful Lombardi and Banner were to coaches being interviewed that they didnt want. That was it.

Banner had fired the coaching staff he hired, fired the GM he hired so I dont really feel people thought keeping Banner was good for continuity at that point lol

Now as for Hoyer, again, I thought he was playing like crap all year and just getting away with really horrible decisions and throws while being propped up by the run game and a defense that was creating turnovers. Law of average finally caught up to him and those same throws that were bouncing off the defenders hands and chest were being caught. he threw into triple coverage probably more than any QB in the league last year. He was the leagues worst QB last year.

I thought Cameron was statistically inflated due to Norv and Chud. I felt he was soft and did not like contact and everything he brought to the passing attack, he stole from the run game.

The loss of Mack should never have produced the results that it did. That loss was all on Farmer. We had the worst group of backup OL in the entire league and he did nothing to address that issue last year.

You can't have continuity simply for the sake of continuity. It has to be someone or a group you believe can or will end up being successful. Banner had a resume' I never liked to begin with. I believed time spent with Banner in charge would end up being time wasted in the end.

With Farmer and Pettine, they have an opportunity to grow into the roles. They have no history in their respective positions. So I at least have hope in them I didn't have in Banner. And in the end, he was his own worse enemy.

Now I know we butted heads on Banner and my reasoning may not make sense to you. But if I believe someone may have the ability to do well, I'll support that. If I don't believe that, I won't.



My opinion of Hoyer was neither great nor poor. Our running game was strong, Hoyer was good. Our running game drops off? So did Hoyer. Still, Hoyer was never going to be the answer at QB and I think most everyone knew it. If you simply wish to base W's and L's only on the QB, then I believe that's a bit short sighted. Had Hoyer actually been a "good QB" I believe you would see a lot more people upset that's he's gone. I just keep remembering WR's waiting on those long balls like they were fielding punts and smile.





Well when the bulk of your scoring inside the 20 was mostly rushing TD's, I believe that enters into it as well. MOST of our scoring were rushing TD's, not a QB throwing for scores.




It may seem like that to you and in some cases I don't doubt your accuracy there. I simply back those I believe have a chance at success with our team and don't back those I don't believe will have success.

I mean if you look at the history of people who have been in charge here since 1999, other than Bruce Ariens, none have gone on to do great things at the respective jobs.

If Farmer were an experienced NFL GM, I would probably feel differently about him remaining here. And according to some, I've been pretty hard on him here. But I think I've been fair. But I do believe he has a chance to grow into the job. But I reserve the right to change my mind at any time.

Speaking only for myself, I actually gave Banner the benefit of the doubt coming in, even when he brought in Lombardi, who most hated, and about whom I had concerns.

I gave Banner credit for the draft trades, and the trade of Richardson, especially getting a 1st for him given the way he had turned out to that point.

I thought that Banner did a nice job of going ahead and hiring Chud, though Arians was my main choice for the entirety of the hiring process to that point, and I was disappointed that he didn't even get an interview here.

I started to sour on Banner when he threw Chud under the bus. Banner did very little to improve the team from 2012 to 2013. He (and mainly Lombardi) did add Hoyer, and that was a good move at the time. However, we were abysmal at positions like ILB, RB, WR, and others. We traded draft picks for future picks, which I didn't have a problem with. We traded our starting RB for a future pick, which I also did not have a problem with. However, these things all adversely affected the 2013 team. It was reported that Banner was behind forcing Chud out. and told Haslam that he could deliver a big name coach. (Kelly was the name most often thrown around) It was also reported that the reason that Banner and Lombardi were fired is because they argued constantly during the whole coaching search process.

Face it, Banner hired Chud, and after one year where the team wasn't exactly flooded with talent, he fired him in a rather unceremonious manner. The Browns came off looking like Bozos to all but those who liked the front office the most deeply.

I picked up the 3 Stooges label because it fit the way they ended the season. They were a joke. 2 of the 3 were then fired. At that point, I was pleased with this.

The reports that have come out since Banner was fired just add to the concerns many had. Reports that he wanted to have coordinators report directly to him as opposed to the head coach are scary, at best. There were other similar reports that amplify the Stooge image for me, and for many others as well.

I thought that Banner did some good things, but some others that made it impossible for him to continue to be taken seriously. That is my view. Others who disagree are welcome to theirs as well.

My thoughts on Banner were hot and cold. I hated him being involved in team personnel decisions, but I thought the way he structured and negotiated contracts was excellent. I also liked the people he acquired on the business side of things.

I think many posters did as well. His business acumen was duly noted-- as he re-configured never before seen media contracts, a stadium renovation (in Philly as well) ,and hired some young talent (at least perceived) in the world of the NFL. I think the perceived part as come to fruition for the most part.

But what people originally feared was his desire to run the football side of things and that was viewed as a issue in Philly. It was a failed endeavor here as well. And it all began when he hired the "yes man" in Lombardi as VP of Player Personnel.

Concerns? An understatement indeed...

I said, at the time that I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, and I did. I didn't like the hire, but I tried not to judge him on his past.

Unlike Banner, Lombardi "presented" well on TV. He would have served better, not in Personnel, but in PR as a team spokesperson for example. I actually found ML very likeable and was really turned off by the way Banner (mis)treated him...

j/c:

At least some of you tried explaining your reasoning and a couple of explanations made sense.

But, a few of you are using RUMORS of Banner being meddlesome, yet you are ignoring FACTS that Farmer is indeed meddlesome.

And I still don't get how you make a final determination on a QB who had a bad 4 game stretch. That is beyond odd. You completely ignore his good games and record and focus only on a terrible 4 game stretch.

Yet, we are supposed to ignore Manziel's two game stretch and McCown's entire career except for about 5 games? The guy was out of football for a reason. The guy was let go by the WORST football team in the NFL for a reason.

Back to Banner for just a moment. YTown mentioned the trading for picks. Many must see that as a bad thing, however, that particular draft was by far the worst in a long, long time. He got higher draft picks in a quality draft for lesser drafts picks in a crappy draft. He got a first for TRich. I think what a lot of you are missing is that this is the guy who had the long range plan. We always seem to be one regime too late when deciding to give a guy time or pull the plug.

Yet you loved and adored The Big Show, even when he talked about playoff tickets and fans needing a life.

I don't believe that anyone will dispute that statement...

"loved" and "adored" may not be the appropriate words, but yes, I was/am an H&H fan. I do not pretend to know what went on behind the scenes but I liked him as the face of the franchise...

Why would you like a guy who wasn't even here for a good part of the season? Seriously?

I don't know what is true and what is not...

Yeah, okay......

I can't wait for real football to start. Then maybe we can talk about things that are going to happen rather than things from the past. Wait, no, we will still keep on rehashing the same arguments over and over again.

One who doesn't learn from the past is doomed to repeat it.

Obviously, that is the Browns--and most of their fans--mantra.

Did I miss read the thread title or what ?

I agree with the continuity take and have said much the same myself.

Its important to remember that it isn't decided on these boards organizational stability comes from within the organization, we truly have no voice in that part. I will concede that public opinion has in the past (Lerner) had a huge seat at the table but I haven't seen concrete evidence that is still the case. Which is the best news possible..


JMHO

I don't know what to tell people that actually believe public opinion plays no role in this. It is huge. Owners take a ton of stock in perception. And it's not just the fans, it's also the media. The Cleveland media is the biggest collection of no talent hack crybabies I've ever seen. Haslam calling Grossi Mr. Positive is an instant classic, btw.

Haslam's biggest test is going to come this year. When the avalanche of outpouring for Farmers's and/or Pett's head starts forming, he has to have the stones to stay the course. If he thought this offseason was challenging, he hasn't seen anything yet.

Stay the course.

I don't think you can have one without the other though Mac?

Rish Love, Love, Love the disclaimer....

I like that you're a good sport about that. Goes a long way in my book.

Josh McCown, Johnny Manziel appear to dig in as one, two on Browns QB depth chart

Jun 11, 2015 -- 4:07pm
By Tony Grossi | ESPNCleveland.com


Extra Points …


Notes, quotes and observations from Browns OTA practice …


* The quarterback depth chart throughout OTAs has been: 1. Josh McCown, 2. Johnny Manziel, 3. Connor Shaw, 4. Thad Lewis. As OTAs wound down leading into next week’s minicamp, the reps for Shaw and Lewis dropped off severely. “That’s just the nature of the reps based on where we are on the depth chart,” coach Mike Pettine said. “When we wrap up next week, we’ll evaluate where we are at every position and it will be up on the coordinator to get with each position coach to kind of set the plan for training camp. You’ll see some training camp mixing and matching lineups.” So if Manziel is going to make a run at McCown, or if Shaw is going to make a run at Manziel, it will happen then.


* Manziel continued to express some frustration on the field. There was one play where he expected something different on a route by running back Terrance West and another time where he was touch-sacked when protection broke down. “I’ve said this before, he’s been very hard on himself this spring. Even when he’s made a good play, he’s like talking under his breath. He wants it to be perfect,” Pettine said. There was a classic no, no, no/yes, yes, yes Manziel moment when he was chased to the right sideline and then threw back to his left, and 6-5 receiver Rodney Smith elevated above a defender to make the catch in the end zone. “Any play that we’re kicking an extra point afterwards, I’m good with,” Pettine said. There was also a play in which Manziel escaped some pressure with his back to the defense, swung around and flung the ball deep for rookie Vincent Mayle, which would be nice except that Mayle is still wearing a red jersey to protect his broken thumb and is not supposed to be thrown to even though he is running routes. On the play, tight end Gary Barnidge, all alone off to the right, was waving his hands to get Manziel’s attention.


* New quarterbacks coach Kevin O’Connell, who tutored Manziel prior to the 2014 draft, said of Manziel: “My thoughts on Johnny have not changed. I thought very highly of him when I had the chance to work with him before the draft. We spent a lot of time in the classroom talking about the NFL game from a defensive perspective and getting ready to play the hardest positon there is. I can tell you from first time I met Johnny, I still see the same competitive guy that comes into work every day to get better, and that’s all we can ask of him right now.” When asked if he believed Manziel could compete for the starting job, O’Connell answered: “Yeah. I think right now Coach Pettine’s been very clear that Josh is here for a reason but we build everything around competition. That’s how everybody gets better. That’s why it’s important that this spring we’ve been able to install our offense and give these guys the tools that they need come the fall that we can have a competitive environment. I think when you have a competitive environment, the best comes out of all the guys, not only at quarterback.”


* Justin Gilbert looks, and sounds, like a new man after his bust-out rookie season.The 2014 first-round pick added 10 pounds (mostly in his upper body) and seemed more at ease with media, and more comfortable with his teammates. “I think last year pretty much humbled me, a lot, and I learned from my mistakes,” Gilbert said. “Just looking forward from here on out, coming to work every day with the same attitude, love being around my teammates and communicating with them, more than last year. It’s been pretty good so far.” At the end of last year, notable teammates Donte Whitner and Karlos Dansby called out Gilbert and said he needed to mature. He admitted the harsh words bothered him, but, “We fixed everything. Everybody’s on the same page now. There’s no hard feelings toward anyone.”


* New punter Andy Lee, obtained in a trade with the 49ers last weekend, chose to switch to jersey No. 8 (he wore No. 4 in San Francisco) for a very personal reason. Lee and his wife lost their daughter, Madelyn, in January only eight days after her birth. “She had some complications, got an infection and she passed away,” Lee said. “She was with me and my wife for eight days. It’s my way to honor her and glorify her name. It’s been life-changing, some good ways, some bad ways. It’s made me appreciate the two boys that I do have, my wife, my family. It shows how fragile life is. It’s also changed the way I feel about dying. I don’t want to die, I don’t want to leave my wife and kids. But also, I get to see my little girl some day.”


* Lee’s booming leg was evident as some of his punts with the wind forced returners out of the end zone, causing some displeasure on their part. “He’s more of a boomer than a directional kicker,” Pettine said. “It’s a bad combination if your coverage teams aren’t good; you worry about outkicking your coverage. But we feel real good about where we are from a gunner situation. We feel his skill set is a good match for what we’ll have out there.” Pettine acknowledged the parting with Spencer Lanning, who was not seen as a team weakness, was bittersweet. “It was a tough choice because anyone who’s spent time with Spencer just knows what a solid player he is and even more so a quality person,” the coach said. “It was difficult. But that’s life in the NFL. We felt we had an opportunity to make our team better. There was a Pro Bowl punter out there and the cost associated was very manageable. It was a decision we made.”


* Monday is the deadline for the Browns to reduce their second-round tender to unsigned restricted free agent safety Tashuan Gipson, who continues to be absent. Pettine wouldn’t touch a question about the Browns’ next move regarding Gipson. “In all my time in the NFL with contract issues, things are very quickly forgotten when you show up,” he said … Receivers Dwayne Bowe and Brian Hartline were back on the field after nursing injuries last week.


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Josh McCown, Johnny Manziel appear to dig in as one, two on Browns QB depth chart
Jun 11, 2015 -- 4:07pm
By Tony Grossi | ESPNCleveland.com

Notes, quotes and observations from Browns OTA practice …

* The quarterback depth chart throughout OTAs has been: 1. Josh McCown, 2. Johnny Manziel, 3. Connor Shaw, 4. Thad Lewis. As OTAs wound down leading into next week’s minicamp, the reps for Shaw and Lewis dropped off severely. “That’s just the nature of the reps based on where we are on the depth chart,” coach Mike Pettine said. “When we wrap up next week, we’ll evaluate where we are at every position and it will be up on the coordinator to get with each position coach to kind of set the plan for training camp. You’ll see some training camp mixing and matching lineups.” So if Manziel is going to make a run at McCown, or if Shaw is going to make a run at Manziel, it will happen then.

* Manziel continued to express some frustration on the field. There was one play where he expected something different on a route by running back Terrance West and another time where he was touch-sacked when protection broke down. “I’ve said this before, he’s been very hard on himself this spring. Even when he’s made a good play, he’s like talking under his breath. He wants it to be perfect,” Pettine said. There was a classic no, no, no/yes, yes, yes Manziel moment when he was chased to the right sideline and then threw back to his left, and 6-5 receiver Rodney Smith elevated above a defender to make the catch in the end zone. “Any play that we’re kicking an extra point afterwards, I’m good with,” Pettine said. There was also a play in which Manziel escaped some pressure with his back to the defense, swung around and flung the ball deep for rookie Vincent Mayle, which would be nice except that Mayle is still wearing a red jersey to protect his broken thumb and is not supposed to be thrown to even though he is running routes. On the play, tight end Gary Barnidge, all alone off to the right, was waving his hands to get Manziel’s attention.

* New quarterbacks coach Kevin O’Connell, who tutored Manziel prior to the 2014 draft, said of Manziel: “My thoughts on Johnny have not changed. I thought very highly of him when I had the chance to work with him before the draft. We spent a lot of time in the classroom talking about the NFL game from a defensive perspective and getting ready to play the hardest positon there is. I can tell you from first time I met Johnny, I still see the same competitive guy that comes into work every day to get better, and that’s all we can ask of him right now.” When asked if he believed Manziel could compete for the starting job, O’Connell answered: “Yeah. I think right now Coach Pettine’s been very clear that Josh is here for a reason but we build everything around competition. That’s how everybody gets better. That’s why it’s important that this spring we’ve been able to install our offense and give these guys the tools that they need come the fall that we can have a competitive environment. I think when you have a competitive environment, the best comes out of all the guys, not only at quarterback.”

* Justin Gilbert looks, and sounds, like a new man after his bust-out rookie season. The 2014 first-round pick added 10 pounds (mostly in his upper body) and seemed more at ease with media, and more comfortable with his teammates. “I think last year pretty much humbled me, a lot, and I learned from my mistakes,” Gilbert said. “Just looking forward from here on out, coming to work every day with the same attitude, love being around my teammates and communicating with them, more than last year. It’s been pretty good so far.” At the end of last year, notable teammates Donte Whitner and Karlos Dansby called out Gilbert and said he needed to mature. He admitted the harsh words bothered him, but, “We fixed everything. Everybody’s on the same page now. There’s no hard feelings toward anyone.”

* New punter Andy Lee, obtained in a trade with the 49ers last weekend, chose to switch to jersey No. 8 (he wore No. 4 in San Francisco) for a very personal reason. Lee and his wife lost their daughter, Madelyn, in January only eight days after her birth. “She had some complications, got an infection and she passed away,” Lee said. “She was with me and my wife for eight days. It’s my way to honor her and glorify her name. It’s been life-changing, some good ways, some bad ways. It’s made me appreciate the two boys that I do have, my wife, my family. It shows how fragile life is. It’s also changed the way I feel about dying. I don’t want to die, I don’t want to leave my wife and kids. But also, I get to see my little girl some day.”

* Lee’s booming leg was evident as some of his punts with the wind forced returners out of the end zone, causing some displeasure on their part. “He’s more of a boomer than a directional kicker,” Pettine said. “It’s a bad combination if your coverage teams aren’t good; you worry about outkicking your coverage. But we feel real good about where we are from a gunner situation. We feel his skill set is a good match for what we’ll have out there.” Pettine acknowledged the parting with Spencer Lanning, who was not seen as a team weakness, was bittersweet. “It was a tough choice because anyone who’s spent time with Spencer just knows what a solid player he is and even more so a quality person,” the coach said. “It was difficult. But that’s life in the NFL. We felt we had an opportunity to make our team better. There was a Pro Bowl punter out there and the cost associated was very manageable. It was a decision we made.”

* Monday is the deadline for the Browns to reduce their second-round tender to unsigned restricted free agent safety Tashuan Gipson, who continues to be absent. Pettine wouldn’t touch a question about the Browns’ next move regarding Gipson. “In all my time in the NFL with contract issues, things are very quickly forgotten when you show up,” he said … Receivers Dwayne Bowe and Brian Hartline were back on the field after nursing injuries last week.

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