DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel...continued again!...

Tab - can't get into specifics - because that would undermine the ability to moan and hate. . . . hang and there will be a reference to Teddy. The same broke record keeps trolling along.

I think the real question Mac is how do you know he's(Manziel) not improving at the OTA's. Fans aren't allowed into those practices, The press hasn't given much that you can hang your hat on. In house team reports aren't totally reliable for obvious reasons. And comments from teammates are nice.. So how do you know how he's doing right now?

Regarding Those texts from Farmer,, Do we know what they said? I haven't seen them released.

Clearly the league said it's wrong to do that (and I don't disagree), and they punished Farmer for it, but the content of those texts haven't been revealed to my knowledge.

For all I know, he may have texted things that we as a group might agree with. Doesn't make it right that he did that, but we might have agreed with him.

So all those that think those texts were scathing commentary on our former OC thus causing him to want out, Show me what was said so that we all can have the benefit of that wisdom.

mac, I did do the search. For a minute. I figured that since you posted me an exact search phrase that maybe it would reveal something to back up your ever changing position. I was worth a stab, so I stabbed it.

But all I found was what all of us already knew, that there is no QB competition. Pettine said weeks ago that he wanted Johnny to take "baby steps" and didn't want him being concerned with a competition.

Ok, so now, what does that waste of my time prove to you in your world? Is it no competition so JF can be named the starter without working for it, (as you've said before), or is there some other significance attached to this common knowledge that I am missing?

Mac - I think you're mixing up your arguments. And I think you're falling into a victim mentality.

In answer to your post - what each previous GM did or did not do (and I agree there are a remarkable lot of blunders since 1999) has zero bearing on how Ray Farmer should be judged. How fans felt about Banner, or Heckert or Lombardi or whichever FO you care to mention - and how quick they may have been to call for them to go ... should have zero bearing on how Farmer should be judged and how much time he should be given.

Farmer may have whiffed on Manziel. So what? Did you expect a new GM in his first draft to not make any errors? Are you expecting perfection? . . . . If you are expecting perfection - then we can stop the conversation coz I have nothing to say to you because you won't hear me on that far away planet you live on !! .... If you are not expecting perfection, then you have to accept in ANY round a mistake is likely. Look back on any first round in the history of the draft - - they are littered with busts or marginal players.

Here's a link http://datascopeanalytics.com/what-we-think/2012/05/01/the-chance-of-a-bust-in-the-nfl-draft second graph seems to show about a 20-22% chance of drafting an outright bust in round 1 from picks 20 or so on.

If you accept that errors are going to be made - you can't then come back with your next statement as "We just can't afford to miss on first round picks" or some such ....

We took Manziel - get over it. I didn't want him. I didn't want Teddy. I would have taken Carr. Who knows how any of them will turn out - its still WAYYYY early to say how good any of them are ... While we can ALL agree JM is looking like the worst of them so far - that doesn't mean our QB would have been solved with Teddy or Carr or Garoppolo ... we'd still be in wait and hope mode.

What I can say is that I am totally convinced that if the team had been built since 1999 the way Farmer has handled the last 2 offseasons, I think we'd be light years ahead of where we have been. Based on Farmers overall performance including txt gate and JM and Gilbert - I think he's done a pretty darn good job improving this team. I'll wait before I anoint him the second coming of Ozzie, and I'll definitely give him another season or two to let things play out in full before I crucify him.

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Now as to my comment in response to Eo - which was in response to the usual agenda driven propaganda from Vers - There was a direct comparison between the Cavs moves this year versus the Browns this year. . . . Eo pointed out that while it's school boy funny to laugh at the Browns getting McCown and thinking that somehow that's a 'football comment' - the reality is, in that direct comparison, who could the Browns have gotten instead of McCown THIS YEAR ??? Easy to hate on what the Browns did ... more challenging to come up with a better solution, and any 'better solution' is purely opinion, and at this point I'll take Farmer over any poster on these forums. The basic choices were :

- to resign Hoyer. Not staggeringly better than McCown in my book. Tons of question marks over the way Hoyer melted down half way through the season. Obviously in addition to the regression, Hoyer didn't endear himself to Pettine and this is Pettine's team.
- Trade for Mariota - and give up 3 number 1 picks, maybe more. No thanks. Actually Hell No!
- Trade for Sam Bradford - would have been the most talented QB to play for the Browns since before 1999 if it had happened. But he's a walking injury and the price was more than a 1st round pick by all accounts. No thanks.
- Any one of a number of 2nd and 3rd tier guys. Most popular of which seemed to be Mallet. Why? Not because he is a proven winner with a track record of success ... because he's a big armed gun slinger who might have potential and might well be a bust who doesn't have it between the ears.
- There was some talk of Cutler - huge contract and everything I have seen indicates he is not what you want from the leader of your team ....

And that's about it. As another poster wrote the other day - anyone talking about Teddy or Carr etc - may as well be talking about why the Browns didn't draft Brady. There's zero point.

Double that and then I agree.

You left out the loss of key players that won't stay because of the hopelessness surrounding the QB spot and the losing that comes about as its result.

There were serious missteps that were made in how we have handled the QB spot from the FO and from the coaching staff. Its pretty clear to this poster that the powers that be have all but admitted their mistakes in how they handled the position last year. It may not be stated but they are handling the spot entirely different then they did a year ago.

That's not a bad thing either. It means they learned from their mistakes. Last year it was all about competition this year its about supporting the starter fully and preparing him to play. Last season they were trying to desperately unseat the starter all season long and it reached its climax with texting.

But they set the team back last season by their lack of support, this year that has changed for the better I believe although their bridge to nowhere QB makes us the laughing stock of the league. Still I applaud the change in approach.

It's important to state that it doesn't mean Johnny has no shot to start, what it means is he has to show he is better, and he will get that chance in preseason and through practice. Its a far better approach then the one taken a year ago. Earn it is always better.

But the team will continue to suffer well into the future because of the missteps they have been made. It will hurt us in ways we may not immediately recognize as hurting us. For instance trying to attracted a top FA prospect for the TE or WR position is a tough sell in Cleveland and will be for some time to come. Parker one of the top WR prospects let it be known before the draft he didn't want anything to do with Cleveland, and it has nothing to do with the team and everything to do with the QB position. There will be many more stories to go with this one before we hopefully find the answer.

I think we are 3 years away if we can find our guy in next years draft. Meanwhile the assembled talent will watse away.