DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Johnny Manziel...continued x2

He had to first get his mind right.. If he accomplished that or at least got on the way to that, then he can work on his game.

I sure hope he gets it all done right. It sure would simplify the Browns life.

As I read it, the comparison was strictly limited to these 3 guys' competitive spirit.

If read in this narrow context, I think the observation- NOT COMPARISON- makes sense.


.02

I found this story, that touches on the QB situation as well as db and rb. I'm only posting the portion that talks about the QB, in an attempt to stay on the subject of this thread.

Anyone wanting to read the rest of the article can click on the link.



Cleveland Browns have Terry Talkin' about Josh McCown, Justin Gilbert and running backs -- Terry Pluto (photos, video)


By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
link

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- You will occasionally hear some nice things about Johnny Manziel coming out of the Cleveland Browns' OTAs. That just makes sense. The Browns want to encourage their young quarterback after a miserable rookie season and a stint in a rehabilitation center.

New quarterbacks coach Kevin O'Connell began talking about "competition" at the position and how he still likes Manziel. O'Connell was hired by Manziel to prepare him for the 2014 draft.

But Josh McCown is the starter. More importantly, those who have been watching the OTAs will tell you that it's not even close -- McCown is way ahead of not only Manziel, but Connor Shaw and Thad Lewis.

This is McCown's 13th season. He will be 36 on July 4. The Browns are his sixth team and he's made 49 NFL starts. The offense being installed by new coordinator John DeFilippo isn't hard for McCown to understand. He was with DeFilippo in Oakland in 2007.

McCown has played in so many offenses with various teams, he's grasped the basic principles. But like Manziel, Shaw is in his second pro season. Lewis was on the practice squads with the Rams (2010) and the Browns (2011-12). He did start the final game of the 2012 season before joining Buffalo in 2013.

McCown has impressed with his pocket presence. He's 6-foot-4 and can see over the linemen. He doesn't have a super arm, but it's above average. Most of all, he has displayed poise. He has his players organized. He usually knows where the pass is supposed to go. He rarely appears confused.

He's the veteran the Browns wanted as they continue to try and win games until they find a younger quarterback.

As for Manziel, he has some OK days and some rough ones. He continues to have issues seeing downfield while in the pocket and reading the defense quickly. It makes no sense to rush to any judgments at this point.

That's why McCown was signed, so the Browns would not have to turn to Manziel before he appears ready.


Before signing McCown, the Browns studied every snap he took in the last two years. In 2013, he threw 13 touchdown passes compared to one interception while starting five games in Chicago. Last season, he had 14 interceptions against 11 TDs in 11 games.
What was the difference? The Bears had a very good running attack. They used play-action fakes to running backs on 21 percent of McCown's passes. At Tampa Bay, it was only 9 percent. The Bucs often had him throwing out of an empty backfield.

Last season, the Browns used play-action fakes on 29 percent of their plays for Brian Hoyer. They are committed to the running game in 2015, and play-action will be a big part of the offense.

Will it work for McCown? No one is sure, but the Browns do believe this offense is more like the successful 2013 model in Chicago than 2014 in Tampa Bay.

I don't necessarily agree with the points made in this story, but the story touches on the Browns QB dilemma "long term".

After the season and leading up to the 2016 draft, what do the Browns do if Manziel is still struggling on the field?


4 Reasons The Browns Should Dump Johnny Manziel


By Clark Mitchell | Jun 13, 2015
link

While we Johnny Manziel nothing but the best after his stint in rehab, there’s still plenty of warning signs overall that lead us to believe that the Cleveland Browns would be better off cutting ties with him ASAP. Here’s our list of 4 Reasons The Browns Should Dump Johnny Manziel.

4) Off-field headache

All of Manziel’s drinking and partying that plagued him during his last season at Texas A&M and first year with the Browns appear to have been dealt with his stint in rehab, but his seeming inability to control his emotions when pestered by fans is more alarming. Is this latest incident with throwing a water bottle at a fan the start of a new trend?

3) Cleveland’s quarterback problems
The Browns have had more starting quarterbacks than anyone else since they re-entered the league in 1999, and they’re desperately looking for a guy who can stick in that role for years to come. If they even have a sliver of a doubt that Manziel is not the answer, it may be better just to trade him now and not risk his value dropping any further on the market.

2) Other options
With guys like Michigan State’s Connor Cook and Ohio State’s Cardale Jones on the 2016 NFL Draft horizon, there’s an incentive for Cleveland to cut ties with Manziel early, give Josh McCown the year to prove himself, and look to the draft for a marquee collegiate name with far less baggage.

1) On-field production
Even with all of his off-field concerns, the true measuring stick is Manziel’s lack of performance so far on Sundays. In three appearances and two other starts, Johnny Football completed just 51.4 percent of his passes for 175 yards, no touchdowns, and two interceptions. It’s a small sample size, yes, but there was very little from that sample size to even suggest that he’s ready to put things together under the bright lights.

mac, I agree. First, it is easy to state "dump the guy." Yet, he gives nothing what to do to replace Johnny. Second, in every day life, how many times do young adults make big mistakes and learn from it? You look back and say you're glad you cut the guy a break. Lastly, Johnny is cheap. It is not a huge investment taking a chance.

I get the Manziel vs. Bridgewater argument. Time will tell what option is/was better. Right now Bridgwater has the upper hand.

even if JM had not imploded... IMO Bridgewater still would have had the better first season, if for nothing more than the fact that he was by all accounts the most NFL ready QB in the draft... it stands to reason he would have the better stats.

Now what happens this year and next and so on... that will in the end determine who was the better pick... that said it's hard to place a bet on JM, at this time

Off Field Headaches? Ok, he's had them, and maybe they aren't over yet. I don't know. But the past is the past. The kid just spent time in Rehab.. Perhaps seeing if he's changed is a good option.

Clevelands QB problems?

Cutting Manziel won't fix that. Trading Manziel won't fix that. Keeping Manziel may or may not fix that. They talk of trading him, too whom and for what in return? IT's easy to say trade him, probably not as easy to do.

Other Options?

There are a ton of options. But which ones can we honestly have a chance for. Cardale Jones, if he turns in a stellar performance next season, he'll be gone before we have a chance to get him. Unless we bust the year and have the first pick in the draft.. How does Cutting ties with Manziel provide any kind of incentive? What's the got to do with it unless you can get a high pick and I just don't see that happening.

On Field Production? No question, he was awful last season. No question about it. Lots of rookies fail and then find their way. I can't figure if he's one of those or one that will be lost forever. I just don't know.

I have little belief that Manziel is the answer. So I guess from that perspective I'd have no objection to him being gone, but geesh, can we at least find out if we have something worth salvaging or something that might have some trade value later.

I see no upside to Trading him now unless we can convince a team to give us something worthwhile. Cutting him has no value at all.

Dump Johnny?

That was one of the dumbest articles I have ever read. It sounded like one of those Hollywood Insider Gossip columns that are sensational, false, and beyond stupid.

Look, I will get on the FO when I think they deserve it. I'll get on Johnny, too..........but, let's be reasonable here. There is absolutely no reason to dump Johnny at this time.

One other thing----------some of you can keep your blinders on when it comes to the differences between Johnny and Teddy, but not all of us are that misinformed. The QB comparison ain't even close.

Come on verse the kid who wrote the article has two whole followers on twitter

Meet Clark

Hometown

Hayward, CA

Current city

Oakland, CA

College attended

Cal State Fullerton

Favorite Teams

Raiders, A's, Cal Golden Bears, Warriors, Sharks

Twitter:

@clarkmitchell12

Google Plus:

Clark Mitchell Google Plus Profile
Interview with Clark
Clark Mitchell - Contributing Writer 2 Followers

Still not sure why people are still discussing Teddy Bridgewater. He's a Viking, not a Brown.

No real reason to dump Manziel, yet.

There is absolutely zero harm in having him compete with McCown in training camp for the starting job.

I am completely on board though with drafting a QB next year barring some kind of miracle turn around by Manziel.

Because not only could we have had Teddy, which our QB situation here in Cleveland would be x100 better than it is now, but we could have had Teddy without trading up and wasting other picks and more importantly, wasting the full year with JF who was just a flat out joke both on and off the field.

Yeah, maybe we shouldn't "dump" JF, but we are basically starting all over with him with basically all the same questions (and then some with the rehab stint) which for a franchise that's been IN NEED of a QB for years, years and more years - yeah. Nothing but a waste. If he can turn things around, then great as he owes that to so many people and entities. If not, it'll basically be two years he's set us back. IMO, Teddy would have set us forward in year one. Or Carr even. Virtually anyone else but the dummy we ended up drafting.

It doesn't do any good to dwell on the past and what could have been but I do it too and I agree with your post Dawg. As a Browns fan you can't help but think we would be better off right now wiyh TB or DC. I personally wanted Carr. It is what it is so let's hope that JM develops and at least becomes a capable qb.

Yeah, but hardly anything else to talk about this point in the season lol... mini-camp starts tomorrow though!

General reply so mac dont panic that someone used instant reply lol

Should have drafted Tannehill, should have drafted wilson, should have drafted who freaking cares? Cant change what we should have done. sitting around crying about it doesnt make it any better either. hell I havent seen enough of Teddy to know if he is gonna be worth a damn or not. We havent seen enough of Manziel to know what we have in him either. Teddy was from a prosystem and was more day 1 ready he isnt on a very good offense and he looked decent but so did colt mccoy early on.

We have Manziel he is a Brown and to hell with Teddy and his barney costume.

Brandon Weeden is the Cowboys’ most improved player

The Cowboys hope backup quarterback Brandon Weeden will spend this season holding a clipboard while Tony Romo plays. But if Romo gets hurt, the Cowboys feel good about what Weeden can do.

In fact, quarterbacks coach Wade Wilson says that no one on the team has improved more this offseason than Weeden.

“I think he’s probably the most improved player,” Wilson said, via ESPN. “He just has a great understanding of the concepts, of the protections, calling the plays, all those things. He’s made a big jump this year.”

Told what Wilson said about him, Weeden said he attributes it to hard work this offseason.

“That’s a good comment because I busted my ass,” Weeden said. “I’ve worked so hard this offseason, training wise, throwing wise to put myself in position.”

Weeden was a disappointment as a first-round draft pick of the Browns, and the Cowboys lost the only game he started last year. But Dallas seems pleased with the way he’s busting his backside, which may pay off if Romo busts his back.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/06/15/brandon-weeden-is-the-cowboys-most-improved-player/

cant believe im saying this. weeden would improve our QB roster.

Yet another insult.

We got four posters on here almost in a row admonishing anyone who wants to talk about the logic of drafting Johnny over Teddy.

It's relevant because our current FO drafted JM. The other guys are long gone. If you don't learn your mistakes, you are doomed to repeat them. Additionally, you look for patterns when evaluating people.

You know guys, this is a message board and we are supposed to discuss football topics. I absolutely despise when people come on here and tell us that we can't talk about certain subjects.

Look.......I know what the bottom line is w/you guys. You love either JM or Farmer or maybe both and you just despise any talk that might paint them in a negative light, thus you come on here and try to tell us NOT to talk about it.

Put it this way.........I don't like soccer. I don't respond to people who are talking about soccer. I sure as heck don't tell them they can't talk about it. If you don't like what is being discussed, shut your mouths and move on to something you want to discuss, but please, stop telling us what we can and can not talk about.

Thanks.

Isn't this the same thing we read about Weeden every preseason?

Oh wait.........he no longer plays for the Browns. Don't you dare discuss him.

Aren't the Browns moving away from Johnny Manziel?...

Oh who the hell knows LOL

He's a QB on the roster.. if he is able to perform, GREAT. if not, then we gotta go get another guy.

NOBODY wants that. I would guess that any TRUE Browns fan wants who ever is starting to end up the League MVP and we win the superbowl.

I honestly don't see Johnny doing that, but that's JMO. I still hope he proves me wrong. I can't think of many things NFL Football related that would make me happier.

I'm most positive that TRUE Browns fans feel the same way.

I agree w/your post, but man, it's kinda hard to say that people who have been following the Browns for decades and have not ever seen:

--one Super Bowl win
--one Super Bowl appearance
--a playoff victory since the rebirth
--more than one playoff appearance since the rebirth
--more than two winning records since the rebirth
--a commitment to continuity since the rebirth
--a plethora of great first round draft choices,
--Etc, etc

...are not true Brown's fans. I think the Browns are pretty darn lucky to have such a loyal fan base despite their pathetic history.

It sure as hell is hard to accept But cryin the blues isn't going to fix it. In fact, I can't think of one thing you or I can do that will fix it.

We can complain about it all we want. (and we do that VERY WELL) But it won't change a damn thing.

This front office, the one before it, the one before that and so on didn't give a damn what you or I thought about any decision.

So what are we left with?

We have three choices as I see it!

1. Accept it and hope for the best
2. Complain about it and develop an ulcer
3. Fergetaboutit. We can't control it, we can't change it so why get sick over it. Makes little to no sense to let it consume you.

FYI: I can only think of one time that public opinion had any kind of effect on things with the Browns (outside of the outrage over the move in 1995)

That's when it seemed to be a choice between Phil Savage and whoever was the President at the time (can't remember his name)

The fans went nuts wanting that guy out... (I was among those that felt we were better keeping Savage and Crennal)

As it turns out, keeping Savage wasn't a great idea..

I'm not sure keeping the President over Savage would have worked out any better..

If you read my post, I wasn't calling out anyone. Just saying, if you are a True Browns Fan, then you want any decision the front office or coaching staff makes to be Brilliant. You want it to work out!

Even if you don't agree with it at that moment, you still want it to work. We all do.

it's like drafting Manziel.. I didn't want him. I wanted TB. (time will tell if that would have been better or not) But as in example 1, I didn't like it, but I accept it and hope it works out.

I'd still take JF lol!

???

I wasn't calling you out at all.

I was simply stating that I think that all of us are "true Brown's fans."

We've endured a lot of ineptness and have not been rewarded w/much success, yet we are still here.

I was just trying to give the long-suffering fans some props.

I get that

Actually Tab there is a lesson here. What is that lesson?

Pro Days shouldn't be the driving force in setting your draft board. Its more akin to a dog and pony show then actual football anyway.

Teams swear they evaluate based on game film then let a poor pro day dictate who they draft?

Teddy has flashed as being the player he was on game day as opposed to Pro Day Teddy.

But it was indeed a failure on all the QB needy teams to pass him up based on a poor pro day. In that respect we failed along with all the other teams that needed a QB.

Its easy to have 20-20 vision in hindsight and thats a fair statement. In an instance where Text had the chance to distinguish himself he fell flat on his face with the JF pick, that is pretty obvious. Oh sure there is a the slimmest (MO) chance that JF will amount to something but I doubt it.

I will agree though it has a bunch more playing out to do before that assessment can be set in stone.

Taught me something though. That is don't move a player up or down on your draft board based on a pro day, good or bad.

Oh and didn't Teddy have a hand problem? Or was it the glove thing? Man I am shot.

I think I said all QB needy teams whiffed on Teddy, all but the Vikings that is.

None the less Text works for my team and we needed to land the best QB available and he whiffed and he had a chance to set himself apart from the rest of the league and fell flat on his face especially when you factor in the JF pick.

You can't sugar coat it by saying everyone else did it so its OK that Text did it too. We need a QB, we need someone that can pick a QB and be right, and you know what its damned tough to do, many before him have failed but what sets the great ones apart from the crowd?

Makes me think Text is just average, so what? Not that average isn't better then some who came before him, he still is just average nothing much more then that at this point.

The thing that blows me away though is that the powers that be think they can minimize the QB position, and we are about to reap that reward.

For me I don't care how well you run the ball nor do I care how great your O Line is without a QB and a viable air attack your screwed. Put all the lip stick and makeup you want on that pig, you are screwed. That is probably my biggest heart ache with these guys. I wonder what year they are functioning in when they say that!

The Vikings drafted a linebacker who can't tackle ahead of Bridgewater and waited until 32 to take him. Not exactly a ringing endorsement.

Yes they did, but in the end they appear to have made up for it. I didn't mean it to sound like a ringing endorsement of the Vikings but when given a second chance they did the deal. Which oddly enough came long after our second 1st round pick. In other words we had 2 shots and missed with them both....errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I think that drafting Manziel was far more egregious than passing on Teddy. I wanted us to take Bridgewater, but as years go by I try to play "What if?" less and less, as it will drive you mad. But drafting Manziel wasn't a "what if?", it was and is a reality, and I have serious concerns with anyone who looked at Manziel and his tape and said "this guy is a first rounder". Had we passed on Teddy in favor of a guy who will actually contribute down the line, then it's easier to swallow. But we burned it on Johnny, and we're still paying on that, in the form of our next first round pick investment at the QB position. That pick was the one gift that Banner's short tenure bestowed upon the organization, and we squandered it. It's hard not to dwell on wasted first round draft picks.

Point is that apparently nobody thought of him as a good bet to be a franchise QB.. if they did, somebody would have taken him and the Vikings wouldn't have passed on him at 9..

We have much more egregious QB misses in our past than Teddy.. Big Ben and Aaron Rodgers both come to mind. I don't think most people expect Teddy to rise to that level.

Factor in who they did take and get back to me. The fact we have missed in the past doesn't cover up for the miss we made with JF, nor does it justify the miss.

But hey thats just ME.. Right?

I agree. Not now. For a crap shoot next year? Dumb idea. Tuck him in the practice squad a bit instead. Not much sense in "cut him now" article. JMHO

I would have more doubts about farmer if he had drafted Teddy to be honest. The fact that the Vikings got lucky on a guy that was throwing the ball worse than Tebow and admitted to having trouble gripping is great for the Vikings but I would never have drafted a QB that looked that bad throwing the football in the first round. Its that simple. He looked horrible there was rumors swirling that he had a hand injury possibly nerve related that was causing his issues with controlling the football. Whether or not he should have drafted Johnny is a fair target but debating on whether we should have drafted Teddy? I dont get it.

Farmer made a good decision in passing on Bridgewater in the first based on what we saw and heard from Teddy sincehis proday leading up to the draft. Did he make a good decision on Johnny? not looking good but the story isnt fully written just yet and it hasnt been written on Teddy either. People were complaining we didnt offer more for RG3 and now 3 years later we could probably get him for a mid rounder.

I think the point is, it's been discussed. It's been hit, kicked, knocked down, dragged through the dirt, washed and dragged through the dirt again... discussed.

There is no new information. At this point, it just seems like piling on.


Apparently we spent $100K last year to commission a study and then didn't follow it. I'm fairly sure that if Farmer thinks he needs something to help make a better decision, he will get it.

Bridgewater had a decent rookie season, Manziel had his struggles on and off the field..... so in the end, Bridgewater won round 1 of an 8 round fight..