DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns Over/Under

Despite what the AFCN looked like on paper last year, there was a LOT more on-field parity than one would have thought at the start of the season.

j/c:

The extremes are amazing.

It's like almost everyone chooses a side and then argues only that side, meanwhile refusing to acknowledge even the most obvious facts of the other side.

Clearly our plan was to improve our pass rush, so we can injure good opposing QBs, so those teams that rely on above average QB play end up drafting before us, and a top QB prospect falls in our laps. I expect RoethlissdaltaccoGate to take place this coming season (BountyGate part II just doesn't pop the same way as the AFCN QB mash up).

I'm guessing 7 wins, but who knows how it'll play out.

Do we do QB evaluations here? I thought buying hype was our philosophy at QB. Although we did sign McCown...I'm not sure if that's a step in the right direction or not.

Actually can I coin Cough for Goff?

re: Cough for Goff

Someone on the boards recently questioned my imagination. Unfortunately in this case, it works all too well. I can clearly imagine Kitchen getting his annual physical and doing the turn your head and cough bit. The prostate check is the part I really regret. You're welcome for that image.

His 35 to 7 TD to INT numbers caught my attention. His athleticism also seems to mirror our current top two, but he actually functions as a pocket passer. Taking his targets and opponents into account was what really started to sell me. I'll be trying to watch out for tape on Goff this coming season.

So tell me what kind of guy am I ?
I never said your prediction was wrong did I ?
I never said you were not entitled to that opinion did I ? yet you say I was making it personal.
Really ? And you say it with a "guys like you " statement ? Why is it when anyone posts a disagreeing opinion to yours, they are making it personal ?
If anyone is optimistic, they need to wake up and agree with you when reality slaps them




Poster; I think the brown and orange unis look best.
Vers; I think the white and brown look best.
Poster ;Well that's why they make vanilla and strawberry.
Vers; did you just compare me to ice cream, why do you have to make it personal ?

LOL we are entitled to make our disagreeing post and sadly I have to tell you , You are not always going to be right.

I really haven't started studying the qbs yet, but it certainly looks like I will have to do just that.

From what little I know of Goff........I like him. Good arm. Good size. Good feet. I think he is known to make some stupid plays when pressured. Not sure how well he can read coverages.

The one guy I think is overrated is Conner Cook. He has some really mad skills, but man, this guys accuracy is unbelievably inconsistent. His issues w/accuracy almost remind me of Locker's when he was coming out. I will tell you one thing.........you can't miss high in the NFL.

Unfortunately, I think part of my fascination with Goff may be having seen more of the other "1st Round" candidates.

I want to like Cardale (as a pro prospect, I already do as a Buckeye) but he's seen about as much game action in college as Manziel saw in the pros. The quality of his supporting cast also makes it hard to decide who should get the credit on any given play (to an extent). I need to see more consistency from him as you mentioned with Cook, Vers.

I'm not sure what to think about next year's crop yet. Matt Barkley was a "consensus" top pick the year before he came out. The more tape evaluators got the following season, the more they started to pick his game apart. He looks like a career back up now.

The top QBs in college are so hard to project anymore. Not many are Andrew Luck, once every decade talents. The NFL is just a completely different animal. It's a 24/7 job rather than (just) a fun game to play. They posted LeBron's daily body maintenance regimen the other day, and it is insane. I don't think he could squeeze enough time together to fit in a single college class in an in-season week. I'm sure NFL players that have any longevity do similar.

We've just gotta hope for the right fit to fall to us wherever we end up in the draft. I think that is an important aspect that is often overlooked. And it's not just fit, you need continuity in that system with the other players.

Do we really believe this team is going to be any better? With the exception of losing a few players, this is the exact same team. A journeyman QB will be leading our team(we all know how that has worked in the past), I do think our Defense will be good, but as in the past, they will be on the field too much and eventually tire. The powers that be really did nothing to improve our offense. Stacking it with WR veterans that are past their prime or were nothing but 3rd or 4th options on their former team isn't going to cut it. Hopefully our young RB's will show promise and can carry the offense. I just don't see journeyman QB and the WR's we have doing much for our offense. I hate being a Debbie Downer, but I can see why we are picked last and to be one of the worst teams in football year after year.

Really?

We added:

McCown
Lewis
Johnson
Lundy
Johnson
Bowe
Hartline
Mayle
Housler
Telfer
Coons or Spear
Erving
Lee
Campbell
Ekpre Olomu
Gaines
T Williams
Cooper
Starks
Shelton
Orchard
Pullard


Plus a plethora of other UDFA and young veteran types.

Yep, exactly the same team.


As far as the WRs being "past their prime", well, people said that about Austin last year ... that he was a hamstring ready to tear. Sometimes a change of scenery is a big positive for a player. I like the mix of experience and youth we have at WR. I really think that Mayle is going to be a special player for us ..... maybe not this year, but he could be a starter in year 2.

At TE we lost Cameron who only played a limited schedule last year due to injury, and added a similar type player in Housler, who is not as heavy an injury risk. We also added Telfer, but he may not be able to help this year.

We are going to be a run heavy team, and are going to involve the RB and TE units even more in the passing game than we did last year.

I do share concerns people have about McCown, but Pettine really likes him, so I am willing to give him a chance.

I still think that we will win 9 games(or more) this season. I think that this defense will more from top 10 (scoring) into elite status this season. The offense will not have to out up 30 points per game in order to win games.

I can't wait for the season to start!

Not sure why you are rolling your eyes, acting like he is crazy, and saying "Really?"

I know exactly what he is saying. He is talking about the overall talent and where we are still weak. How did you miss that?

We brought a bunch of guys in, but how much will they help?

You also failed to mention losing Skrine, Hoyer, Sheard, and Reubin.

Let me guess.......all those guys suck and the guys we kept--and brought in---are much better?

Now, it's my turn.

every one of those players should have stayed for the contracts they got. its the reason Gipson is so pissed. play like a brown my butt.

Skrine got paid big time for what he is. He's put together some solid seasons, but the Jets can have him at 25 mil with 13 of it guaranteed. And I was/am a huge Buster fan. We have a hopeful in Gilbert, and a solid veteran in Williams to handle what Joe Haden does not. He did play like a Brown though.

Hoyer, been well documented, discussed and witnessed. Didn't play like a Brown when we needed him most to.

Sheard, and I really hate to say it, but a big disappointment in this scheme at OLB. He seemed very ineffective..

Rubin was injured a lot. He's toward the end of his career and was replaced by Shelton. Rubin did play like a Brown when healthy IMO, but the circumstances caused for the need to move on. Factoring our biggest weakness is being able to suffocate the run.

Cameron, he was offered a nice contract and took a better one, good for him factoring he's a single concussion away from a season ender, or possibly a career ender. I'll take a less talent/ability out of Housler (sp?) and balance it out with reliability.


... I could go on, but c'mon guys. It's a little early to say that Bowe will be better/worse than Austin. Hartline will be... and so on. As of now, I feel the roster has improved and areas we let a guy walk, we filled and with not a huge concern in "drop off". And then the rookies, but in some instances it's safe to make assumptions, such as the Rubin/Shelton in/out replacement ordeal.

You make valid points, but bro, it really is pretty much the same team as last year.

Goose was not "crazy" to make that claim. Yeah, we got rid of some guys and brought in some guys, but we have the same area of concerns as we did last year.......and maybe even one or two more.

13 guaranteed. its a two year deal. he is still learning and getting better. replaced by a 32 year old comming off his worse year. for 10 mil guaranteed and more than likely pay 14 mil. more than skrine 13 mil.

"The Browns hope the nine-year veteran will be re-energized coming off a season in which he allowed 10 touchdown passes, according to ProFootballFocus.com, and saw opposing quarterbacks record a 106.5 passer rating against him."



played injured most the year. i thought his best year was in 3/4 under horten. someone that pettine said.

""Jabaal Sheard is a guy that’s kind of under the NFL radar,'' said Pettine. "We use the phrase ‘play like a Brown’ – guys that are relentless and passionate, productive – I think he really epitomizes that."

went to another team that playes 3/4.



another that pettine bragged about. replaced not by the draft pick. but by Randy Starks. a guy that never played in this defense. on top of that not one person that was on the roster last year could beat out a hurt rubin for the starting job. ofcourse starks is older than rubin so we are building for the future. pffft

Starks is a situational player, Rubin was the full-time nose. Starks was not Rubin's replacement.

I didn't know honestly Jabaal was injured last year. He did play well in Horton, this I cannot deny.

As for the Williams/Buster, I still think Justin Gilbert played a role in that. Freakish talent, just has to hone his craft and put the effort in required todo so.

We'll see. A lot of people thought replacing DQ with Dansby was a no-no, but those who like the inside lb position, could see Dansby is just overall the better player at that position. As a huge fan of all linebacker spots, 3-4, 4-3, nickel, whatever... I enjoy watching that man play.

Like I said, we'll see. Still early IMO to have those convos. That's best for after the season.

Because he said that this was exactly the same team, with the exception of a few players.

I think that this will be a vastly different team from a personnel standpoint.

I think that we will see new starters at QB, RB, FB, WR, TE, probably one OL position, NT, DE, and CB.

That is 9 positions out of 22. (not to mention the backup spots) To say that this team will be the same team is simply not true in any way, shape, or form. It will be vastly different.

j/c

I think it's gonna come down to health. Hopefully Mack is back ready to go. I do think we can better handle injuries at almost every position this year, and hopefully we won't have the run on one position group like we did with the D-Line last year.

What with the differing schemes and rotation of players, it may be difficult to identify who is a "starter" and who is not. Likely have to look at the final roster and see how many changes have been made...

Where were the upgrades? We swapped out one player for another but where was the upgrade, thats whats being said. Your ASSuming that at every turn we are better, but when you dig into what was done we replaced players that left in some cases with better players and sometimes we just filled a hole (worst player). Overall I would say the team is about the same which got us 7 wins last year.

Hell most of you are all high on Duke but the truth is most of you have never even watched the kid play outside of a few youtube highlight video's that is. How that translates to the NFL? TRich comes to mind and should remind us of how wrong it can go.

In some areas I feel certain will be better in others I m pretty sure will be worse when you do the math its about the same. SAD

I guess we are agreeing/disagreeing on "potential". We won't know for sure until the lights are turned on...

Yeah, keeping Rubin would have made a lot of sense. The guy played horribly in the 34. Horribly at NT in 2014 and horribly at DE in 2013. Even back in Crennel's D he was simply the shiniest turd in the group. It wasn't until the 43 shift we saw some real production, IMO. Good for him he went to a 43, he'll do much better there and will have a chance to win a championship. Rubin was a awesome player regarding hard work and leading by example but he didn't work out in this scheme, injuries or not.

Sheard: Did you even watch him in our defense the last couple of years? He also was not a fit in a 34 and progressively got worse. And everything I've seen has NE in a 43 defense this year (online depth charts)Still, I don't follow NE but I know Belichek switches it up quite a bit from year to year. It's a good move for his career if he plays 43DE.

Hoyer: This has been discussed way too much. To me, Hoyer and McCown is basically a wash. Wouldn't be excited with either starting.

Skrine: The Browns wanted him back at nickel corner money. He got #2CB money and will be playing nickel. He was poorly rated last year (PFF). Skrine gets $13M guaranteed; Williams $10M. Cutting Williams, if Gilbert gets his act together, costs Cleveland $3.5M or something in 2016. K'Wuan Williams is also a factor in Skrine not being here. Skrine playing outside was tough to watch more often than not. Again, I bet you see Skine playing inside with both Cromartie and Revis now in NY.

The University of Pittsburgh product has graded well with ProFootballFocus.com each of the past two seasons, finishing among the top-16 outside linebackers in the 3-4 alignment. He received the second-highest, run-defense mark for a 3-4 outside linebacker last season on a team that finished dead last against the rush.

Yes, I think most would agree if he did one thing better than anything else, it would be the stopping the run which he got better at each year in the league. However, his pass rush ability in the 3-4 was bad. As a rookie he has a pass rush grade (in the 43) of +14. It's gone downhill since being in the 34.

This defense will rely heavily on OLBs to get after the passer. Again, a reason why Sheard didn't fit.

and i repeat. skrine is young and still learnig replaced by

""The Browns hope the nine-year veteran will be re-energized coming off a season in which he allowed 10 touchdown passes, according to ProFootballFocus.com, and saw opposing quarterbacks record a 106.5 passer rating against him.""

as for K'Wuan Williams the guy had 2 concussions last year. the second one it took him like 5 minute to get up and off the field. not sure how much you can count on him.

7.5 sacks under horton 3/4. and again i say he was playing injured most of this year.

The Skrine is "young and still learning" doesn't carry much water with me. The guy is going into his fifth year. He's a seasoned veteran at this point. His biggest issue is his size, and unless "young and still learning" equates to a growing spurt, I think he is what he is, which is a very good nickel CB.

If "young and still learning" best equates to anyone in this back-n-forth, it's K'wuan Williams. He still has much to learn but showed up rather nicely in his rookie year.

He had 5.5 w/ Horton.

Once more, as I said, his pass rush went down each year....And clearly he showed more production in the 43 than the 34 getting after the passer. If we still ran the 43 I'd be all about keeping Sheard; Rubin too.

2011-8.5 sacks
2012-7
2013-5.5
2014-2

http://espn.go.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/14036/jabaal-sheard

I think the "upgrading" concern is a valid question. I mean, all teams can run a list of new players (simply on draft selections alone) to say where a different team but what real impact will they have replacing the snaps of the people who have gone.

I do think we've upgrading more than we haven't but the QB spot has essentially stayed the same from last year. Until that position shows improvement from 2014, it tends to make many position upgrades not as noticeable maybe?

We could improve on our record this year. However that equation will mean a heavy dose of running the ball to help PA, and relying heavily on our defense. Same equation as last year really, but do we have more/ better parts in place than in 2014? We'll see.

I don't know if I'll go that far that quickly, but K'Wuan did show some very promising things last year.... moreso than I think Skrine did in his first season in Cleveland.

His ceiling could get pretty high.

Edit: I read your post wrong. I thought you compared them both as far as last season was concern--MY BAD!

Clear as day downgrade.



Bowie isn't an addition he has been here, but if he is all that and a bag a chips then why draft Ewing? Who I view as being Macks replacement come next season. SAD



yeah its in keeping the we are the same theme where we swapped out one OK player for another OK player. I really like Hartline (always have).

Losing Cameron is a huge lose. Yes he had a ruff go last year but there is a very good reason Text tried to get Cameron re-signed. Huge downgrade here. Even if you refuse to admit it.



Tate was gone before the season was even close to being over. We added Duke, but who knows? Makes me wonder about Winston who the powers that be spent a great deal of time telling us how great he was. I guess they like selling cars, used cars?

Where is the improvement?



There is a very good reason GB let him walk. 105QB rating when throwing in his direction along with 10TD's given up. Huge downgrade, the one glimmer of hope here is Gilbert.


Should help.



Struggled all season with injuries, not a huge loss.



Not an upgrade but I didn't love Sheard either. A wash though at best.



I like SAT players and Sheldon fits that mold if he can collapse the pocket from the nose he could be huge. I do NOT view Sheldon as a huge upgrade to our run defense like most do because we were gashed on the edges far more then the middle.



I thought we were talking about additions and subtractions? Did I miss something???? It's queer how topics get side tracked. With the players we had it would have been their 2nd year as well so how does that make the additions or subtractions better. Following that theory it stands to reason the guys that were here would also be better and they actually had a year under their belts their replacements don't. Down grade here plain and simple, if I follow your formula.



Lanning had similar numbers and our special teams were horrible last year hard to believe they could be worse, but that had far more to do with the returns and coverages. I think with Benji getting thru the year after ACL he could return to form. ?????? remain I would have canned Taber and went after Sealy......



The QB spot was a huge downgrade, you just don't want to believe it, but you will. But we did nothing to address the spot our response to the obvious void has been to put on our used car salesmens suit and tell all who are gullible enough to believe it that McCown is Hoyers equal and that we will minimize the QB spot. I don't care for the lack of substance in what was done and what is being said. It has all the ear markings of a used car salesmen trying to sell you a POS that you know is a POS, but refuse to allow yourself to believe because you happen to like the sales pitch and the guy giving you the pitch. Imagine if Cincy made this move how hard would we laugh..............



Yup just different POV. With a long history of watching and the lessons that come with it...



We are getting side tracked again, Skrine was a big loss for us, Williams is either done or close to it.



Like I said better in some areas worse in others when you total it up it equals the same.

BTTB, just as everything Farmer attempted to improve will turn into success, I have equally hard time believing everything he did becomes a complete failure.

If everything is still equal as you stated in your response to Tab, are you saying, if Browns kept Hoyer and Shanahan, it is difference between Browns being a playoff team vs another losing season?

I'm pretty neutral. I can agree with either side of this debate. I see where additions really don't work and everything just turns into a POS. I can equally see a few of these new guys perform as expected, and presto, everything falls into place. It is really hard to predict. Do the Browns repeat what they done these past several years or things change like other NFL teams?

The one thing that gives me hope is the pieces added appear to match. Offensive coaching staff is not a complete scheme change. Defense scheme stayed the same. Players added fit the schemes. To me, that seems like a huge step toward progress than what they've done in the past.

Alex Mack is the key to me. When he was playing, the ground game was rolling, and Hoyer was getting wide open receivers on play action. The offense was clicking. When he went down, the offensive production and simple ability to stay on the field fell off a cliff. If the offense can stay on the field and get the D more rest, that should help our Run D ranking at least as much as the new personnel.

Me too, and I didn't say that your exaggerating what I did say.



No



That's the point nothing has changed I thought I covered that. Yes we added(got better) and yes we subtracted(got worse) when I add and subtract I come out with the same team. SAD



Funny how at about this time every year that thought creeps into our heads then by October its all whipped out. All but last year that is.



Wishful hopeful thinking the numbers just don't add up. Your not neutral either you bought the car. SAD