DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Cavs/Finals/NBA thread continued...

that's interesting... I would have thought it was a gradual growth thing too.

But i don't watch much NBA, even the playoffs

It was gradual, but we also had a lot of things fall into place at the right time and hit the ground running.

In December Andy got hurt, Lebron was banged up and took 2 weeks off, Dion was sulking, Love and Irving were having trouble finding their place. We lost a bunch of games in a row and that's when we got to that 19-20 record.

But then we traded a sulking Dion for Shump and JR and parleyed that into Mosgov. Three games later Lebron came back, the coach canceled practice so everyone could take a bowling trip together, and we started rolling after that. We were still growing as a team, trying to figure out which parts went where, but we could at least beat teams on talent alone at that point. Having Moz to protect the middle and Lebron back from injury were probably the two biggest reasons.

I had this very conversation with someone this morning. I hear you on versatility etc but I have to agree with original post. In some ways losing Love and eventually KI forced us into into playing a desperate, swarming D which I don't think we would have gone to otherwise. We might have been a little better against GS on the offensive side but I still think GS wins any fast break, track meet series against any team in the league. If we went toe to toe on offensive talent and speed I think that would have played right into their hands from the get go. As it was we gave them fits but they figured us out eventually. I look at it like we got 40% worse on offense by losing Love and KI but we got 30% better on defense and in the case of GS that actually means much more.

No year is a given and placing odds of who's gonna take it next year at this point, before trades, free agency and draft is silliness. We have A LOT of bench work to shore up. If we can learn anything from GS (and the Spurs) it's that having a full and complete roster is uber important. We can't afford to have wasted space on the bench. You need to have a lot of depth.

I agree on your take with the bench, I said it all year that our bench would cost us ultimately. But I don't agree with your Kyrie and Love statement, we def. didn't get better on defense when they went down. They both improved drastically on defense this year, and we played great defense all year for the most part after the trades. I have no doubt if we had those 2 we win that series, They would Have had no answer to stop either one of those two plus lebron. Lebron could have picked his spots to be dominant and Kyrie can shoot the 3 just about as good as Curry. I would have loved to have Kyrie in the 4th quarters. And who do they have that could guard Love. This is a completely different series with those two. Because mainly we can play big and slow the game down. Then you surround lebron with actual NBA caliber players who can shoot the ball and the whole dynamic changes and lebron doesn't get worn down.

First, of course it would have been awesome... would have been the best case scenario had we won the title this year. It would have been unbelievable and I probably would have cried like a baby with low blood sugar, but even if the peripheral players drift off somewhere else, I think we will be a better playoff team next year because of the injuries to Irving and Love this year. It showed those guys how good you can be as a team when you give great effort on defense. I think it already had a little impact on Irving that we got to see in Game 1. If Love and Irving would have been healthy, and were playing their normal level of defense, we might have gotten bounced from the playoffs (likely in the finals) anyways. To see that we almost won the title with what we put on the floor, largely predicated on active defense, has to motivate them to play at that level next year, at least in the postseason when it matters.

No ... he hasn't. He said Kyrie wasn't going to re-sign. He re-signed almost immediately. He said there was no way Lebron was coming back. He came back. Pretty much every article about Love wanting to leave, the players hating Blatt, or any sort of discord in the locker-room originates from Windhorst, and it's usually refuted immediately by players. Almost everything he put out there is from some "anonymous source" and I don't think any one of his rumors has proven to be true yet.

I seriously don't know how the guy still has a job. Either he's completely making things up to try and pretend he's still connected or people are deliberately feeding him bad info so they can laugh at him when he puts out another "turmoil" story.

Of course ESPN doesn't care if he's right or not. They just want tabloid click-bait. The annoying part is that other "journalists" keep using him as a source to spin their own stories.

The Jay Moore show pointed this out yesterday ... here's Warrior fans booing their owner three years ago and Chris Mullin and Rick Barry calling them out for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbij4VY6UiE
(Not sure why it won't embed)

Some salary info for those looking to next year:

This year's and next year's salaries:



A few things to note:

- Kyrie's deal goes: $14,746,000, $15,851,950, $16,957,900, $18,063,850, $19,169,800 for the next 5 years as an Early Bird extension. Considering the cap will go way up next year, it's actually a pretty good deal.

- TT apparently wants more than $13 million a year. Is he looking for a Kyrie Irving-like Early Bird max deal? Do we really want to pay him the same salary as Kyrie?? 2 million less a year seems more than fair enough. What I'm guessing happens is we make a qualifying offer for $7 mil, I think it is. He hits the market and we match anything that he gets offered. I really doubt he gets a max deal from anyway. If he doesn't get any offers, which I think is most likely. We keep him for the year and then attempt to re-sign him again when the cap goes up and he's proven his worth one way or another.

- As much as everyone's complained about signing "Lebron's buddies", who did we really waste money on? Other than Mike Miller ... Perk, Marion and Jones were all for league minimum salaries. Jones was probably a good deal for what we got out of him.

- On that note, how exactly do we improve our bench? We can only sign guys for league minimum contracts right now. I *think* but I'm not positive, that we are over the cap apron as well, which means we can't even sign guys with mid-level exceptions and such. For those who think we should be fielding a team with 10 All-star level bench players, who exactly are we getting?

- I think Haywood could get flipped for a decent piece. That 10 mil non-guaranteed salary could be very valuable in a trade.

- Even if we let guys like Smith and Shumpert to walk. Who are we getting to replace them and how? We're well over the cap, so it's not like we can sign an equal level replacement. My guess is that we sign most of these guys back on one year deals at around the same cost.

Ironically it was over trading Monta freaking Ellis,


If I'm the Cavs I'd let TT walk. I appreciate his rebounding, but not much else outside of that. A healthy Andy can negate *some* of that if he's just a bench player from now on.

I'd at least sign him to a qualifying offer. He's worth at least that and we'd get another year out of him. If he gets a crazy contract somewhere else, you can at least see if he's worth it or not.

There's been a lot of talk about Wade opting out of Miami. I know I'm one of the first guys to say he's done with that knee, but if we could manage his minutes, he could be very useful in the playoffs. Of course, he's going to want to get PAID crazy high because he's been taking a discount in recent years.

Also, what happened to the sign-and-trade talk with Aldridge? Send them Kevin and we get back him. I don't know how that would fit, but whatever.

Are we allowed to pair his deal with anyone else's?

Are there any teams looking to dump solid players for cap reasons?

Find a team with two solid guys who's contracts total 10? Or one guy for 10?

As much as people love Andy.. If we could pair his 9 mil with Haywood's 10? We could do some work..

I love Andy for what he brought this team over the last several years but I think we are actually good on frontcourt depth (when healthy) with Mozzy/TT/Love.

So could the incredible Hulk, or Samson.

One issue with that, Andy is never healthy. If it were at all possible, I'd keep TT and label Andy as expendable.

LeBron's handling of Blatt unbecoming

I have a question for LeBron James that I really hope he'll field someday.

A question that can be asked a variety of ways.

What kind of coach do you want?

Who out there is a coach you'd actually like to play for?

Who could ‎the Cleveland Cavaliers hire that you'd give some meaningful backing?

I don't have the answers to any of those queries. Cavs assistant coach Ty Lue is my best guess.

I know this much, though: LeBron James is too brilliant as a basketball player, too truly great, to behave the way he did toward David Blatt during the NBA Finals.

We literally saw peak LeBron and the corresponding LeBron nadir over those six gripping games with Golden State. He ‎had staffers from the 67-win Warriors almost quaking at night in fear of the havoc he was wreaking, such was his genius in controlling tempo and carrying a skeleton of a roster to a 2-1 lead that actually made you think the Cavs could win it all with Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love and his beloved Anderson Varejao all sidelined.

And we likewise saw LeBron emasculate Blatt in ways that are simply unbecoming of a player of James' legend-in-the-making stature.

I saw it from close range in my role as sideline reporter through the Finals for ESPN Radio. LeBron essentially calling timeouts and making substitutions. LeBron openly barking at Blatt after decisions he didn't like. LeBron huddling frequently with Lue and so often looking at anyone other than Blatt.

There was LeBron, in one instance I witnessed from right behind the bench, shaking his head vociferously in protest after one play Blatt drew up in the third quarter of Game 5, amounting to the loudest nonverbal scolding you could imagine.

Which forced Blatt, in front of his whole team, to wipe the board clean and draw up something else.

I understand LeBron had no input into Blatt’s hiring and had to roll with him in less-than-ideal circumstances. But it struck me as a rather unflattering look for an all-time great.

No matter how inept he might think the coach is.

How is any fellow Cavalier going to treat Blatt with something resembling reverence when LeBron treats him like a bench ornament in plain view?

How can LeBron publicly laud his own leadership, as he so often does, when setting that sort of tone?

My ESPN.com colleague Brian Windhorst, who ranks as the most credentialed LeBron-ologist there is after shadowing James since his teens, went on SVP & Russillo on Wednesday and posited that No. 23 actually wouldn't mind if the Euroleague import keeps coaching the Cavs because he "likes having Blatt to kick around."

I wouldn’t expect to hear anyone in Cleveland dispute it, either.

Because they can't.

Blatt, for the record, is by no means faultless here. It's up to the coach, in the Big Boy NBA, to earn buy-in from the players. For all the legitimate arguments that the job he wound up with is not the one he signed up for, given that LeBron came home to Ohio after Dan Gilbert handpicked the 55-year-old Boston native over Alvin Gentry, Blatt has to absorb a slice of the responsibility if that hasn't happened. It's on him to convince his players he's up to the task.

It was on Blatt, furthermore, to make better use of Timofey Mozgov -- offensively and defensively -- after his bust-outs in Games 2 and 4. It was likewise on Blatt to find better schemes to disrupt Andre Iguodala in the series of his life as opposed to leaving him open game after game and asking Mozgov to chase after him. You also expected him to coax more out of J.R. Smith after Blatt proved more than once while coaching abroad that he had a knack for reaching enigmatic players.

The disconnect with LeBron is no alibi for any of that.

But I repeat:

LeBron's otherworldly performance in this series, on top of everything he's done for Northeast Ohio just by returning to the area and revitalizing it beyond words, doesn't make any of this stuff palatable.

The charade can't continue. This isn’t about whether Blatt deserves to be brought back for a second season, but he obviously does after going so far in the playoffs -- and with Cleveland improving its defense so drastically along the way in the postseason -- in spite of all the injuries.

This is purely and simply about LeBron, if he can't bring himself to back Blatt with more gusto going forward, going right to Gilbert and telling him to hire Jeff Van Gundy, Tom Thibodeau or the most likely suspect, Lue.

Someone he's prepared to support.

Support like Tim Duncan was providing Gregg Popovich long before he was POP!

Or the kind of support that Iguodala, your newly minted Finals MVP, reluctantly but ultimately submitted when a rookie coach named Steve Kerr, with far less of a coaching resume than Blatt, showed up in Oakland and told Iggy he needed him to come off the bench for the first time in his life to make Harrison Barnes -- and, by extension, Golden State as a whole -- function more effectively.





The otherworldly way LeBron played in these Finals, shouldering a bigger load than any superstar we've seen on the championship stage and slowing the mighty Dubs like no one else could with his brain as much as his brawn, left little doubt that he's one of the three-to-five greatest individual forces this game has ever witnessed.

Yet when folks question why I would dare suggest that Duncan deserves consideration in the same conversation, here's my answer: Timmy ticks every single box when it comes to serving as the ultimate tentpole upon which to hoist a franchise.

Eight years removed from the Finals in which Duncan's Spurs swept aside young James and a different set of overmatched Cavs -- eight years after Duncan told the then-22-year-old James that he would soon own this league -- I found myself coming back to the same thought.

He's too damn good to behave this way.

http://espn.go.com/blog/marc-stein/post/_/id/3896/lebrons-handling-of-blatt-unbecoming

i agree somewhat with the article. I think us losing in the finals has much to do with lebron as us being competitive in the finals as well.. I know that don't make much sense.. But let's look at this way. we played 5 games of basically hero ball. That only works so far.. you can't jack up 40 shots a game and get mad at your teammates when you throw them a bone a couple times and expect them to make them. It's all about rhythm, Lebron didn't really facilitate that and he was horribly inefficient. Now alot of that has to do with not trusting his teammates to hit a shot. Thats why you need to turn towards coaches and trust they will put you in the best scenario. You can bet they watch alot more tape than you and if they are worth their salt, they'll know what they can and can't do with the personnel they have. Lebron is a great player, but he's a horrible team player sometimes. He sulks and gets upset and doesn't buy in. It's all about trust, if he doesn't trust Blatt, I have no doubt he won't be coaching next yet. And lets be honest, if we knew lebron was coming back before the Blatt hire, I have a feeling Blatts not the coach. I think Blatt deserves another year, but I wouldn't be the least surprised if he's replaced.

That was the stupidest article I've ever read...

Just.. Wow..

The Heat are really worried about Wade leaving now too. I've heard stories a few days ago about this and apparently it's only really big news in Miami.

I really don't think it happens though and I'm not sure how Cleveland could even afford it ... let alone have room in the training room for Wade, Irving, Love and Varejao.

http://www.hothothoops.com/2015/6/18/877...eland-cavaliers

David Griffin: "Lebron, who do you want more? Wade or Tristan Thompson?"

Listened to the first ten or so minutes with Blatt and the GM - looking like Blatt will indeed be coaching here next year.

But Brian Windhorst ...

I obvioudly don't know James' answer to that question, but I'd definitely say TT.

I just really wonder what kind of money Wade will command, and if he's willing to take less to make another run at it.

I don't like the guy, but if he wants to come along, I'm all for it, depending on price. Plus it'd be great to stick it to Riles.

Griffin flat out said they are qualifying Shump and Delly. You know Thompson is coming back. I think there is optimism that Love comes back for 1 year. What does that really leave us?

Why? Because it calls out LeBron for undermining his coach (something he's been doing the entire season)?

He is just trying to stir the pot. He's not a reliable narrator and easily lost in hyperbole. He contradicts himself in the article. He says that Mozzy should play more and be more involved on O and D, but doesn't want him guarding Iggy. Not to mention that might not be strategically as good as we think. He's just trying to point out that things are wrong; even when nothing if there.

I think the overall message is correct. LeBron does not respect Blatt.

LeBron indeed choked but at least won the Cavs respect back.

I didn't think it was stupid at all.

In fact, I think that it was pretty obvious all year how LeBron disrespected Blatt and wanted things his own way.

I think LeBron is wrong for not buying into Blatt's system. I think we would be a much better team if we ran Blatt's offense rather than LeBron's. I think LeBron should be a player and use his credentials to help other players buy into the coaches system.

I never bad-mouthed LBJ for leaving. He had the right to do so. However, I have read and witnessed too many things that are souring me on LeBron.

If I was Blatt, I would resign. No way in the world would I put up w/that crap.

I know that w/out LeBron, we don't sniff the finals, but I am already getting tired of his superior act and lack of understanding of what it really takes to win.

It still irritates me that he just got beat two years in a row by teams that utilize floor spacing and ball movement, yet he has the freaking nerve to call out his teammates for their lack of assists while he pounds nails for the majority of the shot clock and then throws the ball away or forces up a desperation shot.

I know it sounds like I am negating the good he has done. I am not talking about those things here, but I fully recognize and appreciate his awesome skills and strengths. I just don't think he has the right mind-set to understand what winning teams do.

The killer is that Blatt's offense is so similar to San Antonio's. And Golden State also utilized spacing and ball movement. They get all these open looks. How the hell does he not see how that style of offense is so much better than him pounding freaking nails while other guys are FORCED to stand around watching and then jack up a shot while not being in rhythm?

I remember when I got to high school. I had a really good handle. I showed off all the time in middle school. First day of summer workouts, I am playing w/an older defender. I am feinting, going between my legs, using the inside handshake, crossing him over, rocking him, etc. Some of the guys were hooting and hollering and I was so full of myself for my great ball handling abilities and using an older guy. Well, my coach blows the whistle and gives me a huge verbal beat down. The bottom line of the message...........if you are going to put the ball on the floor, go somewhere. Don't pound nails!

You see, the last thing you want as a distributor is for you guys to be standing around watching you. You move w/out the ball, spot up, and trust him to get you the ball in rhythm.

LeBron said in the press conference that he hates waiting on his teammates to look to him for a play.

I know. That's part of my point. He is the one that perpetuates them standing around. You absolutely cannot pound nails on the perimeter and expect your teammates to move, cut, and be in rhythm.

It doesn't work. The key is to get great floor spacing and move the ball.

And think about this. LeBron--and the team--was way more successful when he posted deep in the paint as opposed to him catching the ball out by the three point line and trying to back guys down from there.

Look, I am still holding out hope he "gets it," but that style of play is not conducive to "team ball."

And again..........the team beat the most talented player in the world........again.

i said that alot this year. as good as lebron is, and as much as he preaches team, he's a horrible team player..maybe one of the worst when the pressure is on..He's a average shooter and an exceptional driver/finisher, but he will pound the air out of the ball then either shoot or pass to someone with 2 seconds left on clock. Thats not setting your guys up to succeed, and I promise you thats not what blatt has been preaching.

I hate Marc Stein. I've always thought he's had an agenda when it comes to Cleveland and LeBron, and it's not a good one.

I love Lebron, but you're right.

I think there are times in a game where him holding the ball like he does is good. I think in the GS series it was needed more than any of us would have liked, but it is really hard to argue that doing that makes it incredibly difficult for guys like JR and Shump to do anything offensively. Funny thing is they took more blame in the end.

I don't want to be that negative about it, because before Kevin Love got hurt this team was cooking. They were regularly dropping 120 on teams. I mean really, how many games, especially after the trades came down to the last couple possessions? The only one I really remember was the loss in Houston. Otherwise it was the starters yacking it up on the bench in the 4th.

I can't wait to see this team start making their moves for next season.

I think the one thing I keep going back to when I think about how it all ended was that Miami ended up with a similar result in their first year. Up 2-1 on Dallas, lost in six. They got cocky though. The Cavs literally fought until the end. Guys got valuable experience going forward. Kyrie, Tristan, they learned about the pace of a playoff game, the physical toll it will take, and the pressure of each possession, and how easy baskets, and transition ball are at a premium.

I think as long as the core sticks around, we just need to find a real starting two guard. Shump/JR weren't it. They are good role players, and the Big 3 masked us a bit of this liability, but I think we need to find some way to get a legit starting one.

I think that Shumpert and JR are both fine SG, as long as they are not the 2nd offensive option on the team. As 3rd offensive option, either is very good. However, neither fits as the 2nd option.

A healthy Andy ... where do we find one of those?

Yeah I agree with all that, I've said with a healthy team I think we would have beaten these guys in 5. I also think Blatt if he comes back (he should) has some great teaching points to build off of if we keep the team in tact. Noone really expected finals this year for us, we knew we'd be playoff bound. Next year will be our year. We fix the bench and find a legit 2 we are set. And we do have some resources to make that happen. I hope Love sees theres something special here that will be hard pressed to find somewhere else. Unless all he cares about is being the man. We can give him winning and most money. Makes no sense to go elsewhere.