DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Shooting suspect in custody after Charleston church massacre

Good points. But if someone thinks bringing a gun into a Church is the way to combat this then they should probably bring a bible instead.

There is no evidence whatsoever that a bad person with a gun, in my home, is going to be stopped from doing bad things, by the cops. They show up to take reports.


We're being attacked by bad people - that have guns.

Hey, check out how many people die in car accidents. Do we ban cars? Do we blame cars?

once again, this is a straw man argument that got blasted last time we debated on this board about guns.

you was ok with me until that part.

guns, the ones we're talking about, sole purpose is to neutralize and/or kill an intended target, no matter the reasoning.

A car was NOT design to do that. a car was design to get a driver and it's passengers from point a to point b.

cut it out.

But, we blame the gun, not the person that used it in a wrongful manner?

And in car accidents, we blame the driver, not the car?

a gun's sole purpose is to kill/neutralize, is it not? no matter defending, going on the offensive. it's a tool used by somebody who wants to kill.

a car has multiple purposes, but it's sole purpose is to transport point A to B.

that straw man argument simply doesn't work. this is how much nonsense it sounds like:

i can kill you with a baseball if i throw it hard enough. should we ban baseballs?

you're trying to take something whose main purpose is not related to intentional deaths whatsoever and trying to make a parallel to your argument.

that's called a logical fallacy. Eng 101

I shoot to stop an attack, not to kill.

Ah - good counter.

My point still stands though. MY guns have killed nothing other than deer and rabbit.

Why don't we try enforcing the laws that are already on the books? Murder is illegal. Using a gun to facilitate a crime is, in Ohio - a mandatory 7 years in prison.

I get the whole "if we didn't have guns" argument. But, here it is: We do have guns. 99% of people (that's just my assumption) use guns for legal purposes. That includes self defense.

i was never arguing against your point when you was talking to CHS.

i simply felt i needed to interject with the "ban cars" stuff. like i said, you was ok with me until i saw that.

that's kind of what defense means.

But you said... " it's a tool used by somebody who wants to kill."

I shoot to stop an attack, not to kill.

So you shoot to neutralize... Like Swish said was the primary objective.

No, he said a gun is a tool used by somebody who wants to kill.
He's Wrong!
I shoot to stop an attack, not to kill.

The gun was designed by man to kill man.

What people do with it is merely a variable.

There is always going to be hate and violence, that's just the nasty sick world we live in today. Some 21 year old kid whose messed up in the head can walk into a church of all places and end the lives of nine innocent people. Gun control laws aren't going to stop that kind of evil. The back and forth debate our Government parties are having is never going to end in a successful resolution.

There are 323 million Americans.

That's a lot of free will right there.

There are always going to be evil people, and a "No guns allowed" sign isn't going to stop it.

Making them harder to obtain in stores is a start, but it won't solve the problem. People not wanting to kill other people will solve the problem, and that's never going to happen.

sigh....CHS i'm glad your vision isn't fading.

the problem is we've gone beyond a point of no return.

the majority of Americans aren't going to give up there guns, no matter if they try to amend the constitution or not.

What this debate always ends up being is "law abiding vs criminal". simply symptoms of the problem

when the debate SHOULD be able is the ROOT of the problem, such as social and economic issues.

there will always be a criminal element that will be just that; criminals. however, getting to the roots of the problem will cause criminal activity to go down significantly.

So let's take this shooting as a good example. the symptom is he used a gun to kill 9 people in the church.

well whats the root? racism. specifically he felt (wrongly) that blacks we're taking over and raping their women.

side note: sounds like a guy that lost his girlfriend to a black dude, and got pissed off.

anyway, the core issue is that we still are battling a very much active issue of racism.

just like a symptom of gang violence is guns.

the root of the problem is economics.

Rocket technology, the V2 specifically, was designed to kill people. So we should not be exploring space since the first rocket was designed to kill people?

what argument are you even attempting to make with that?

i never mentioned anything about banning or not using anything.

You said a guns sole purpose was to kill/neutralize, like the rocket it was it's first use was as a weapon but it has other purposes as well. Target shooting is neither to kill or neutralize but a legitimate use for a firearm.

so you're arguing my point.

it's original purpose was to kill/neutralize.

so they found another use for it, awesome.

and target shooting?

we all know why we practice shooting our weapons, right?

you're finding alternate uses for firearms, but that does NOT take away it's original purpose.

you're trying to argue a point that nobody is really arguing against.

A car original purpose is to go point A to point B, if i use it to kill somebody, it doesn't take away from what it was originally designed to do.

or better yet, if i take the engine out and use it as a BBQ grille, awesome, i found another use for the car, but it's original purpose is still cemented in it's design.

I was avoiding the obvious hunting reference since it can be argued it's killing although for need and not hate or vengeance.

i've been hunting before. pretty boring.

i don't have an issue with guns. i own guns. i have an issue with so many being on the streets with people having no business with them.

my idea of gun control has always been gun safety.

like i feel people should be required to take a course for anything that's a shotgun or rifle.

i also feel like these guns should be registered. as mine are. also, should be mandatory that weapons not in use should be kept in a safe. that way when weapons are hitting the streets, the person who didn't secure their weapons like they should will be held accountable just as the criminal will be for the crime they commited.

What laws were not being enforced that would have prevented these sprees.

Most of the gunmen use legally purchased weapons.

I don't disagree with that at all but in the case of "Fast and Furious" it was the government that wasn't securing their weapons as they should, who's holding them accountable?

Golly - murder would be he first law broken. Using a weapon in the act of a felony is right up there. Carrying a weapon where it is not allowed. Brandishing a weapon when not warranted. Firing a weapon in public. He probably didn't have a license to carry (I'm only assuming here).

i agree, and they should've been slammed for that by whoever has the power to do so.

that was simply embarrassing.

I do not believe any such thing.

I believe that such assertions are "Dark Ages"- type explanations/excuses that allow the uninformed and gullible to give reason to Acts of Man that stretch the bounds of accepted credulity.

Trust me: Human Beings are totally capable of these acts without benefit of 'supernatural influence.'
We're just that damned bad, when we want to be.

IMHO, to attribute such an act to 'demonic possession' is a cop-out even worse than absolving him of personal responsibility "by reason of mental disease or defect," because it takes ALL responsibility away from the killer.... and places it upon some supernatural being whose existence cannot be confirmed by reasonable means/methods.

It's too easy.

Maybe you can rationalize this act by invoking 'possession' as a possible motivator, but I cannot.

He did this horrible thing because he chose to. He conceived it, he planned it, he executed it. He's an evil man, but to suggest that he was "taken over by a malevolent spirit" gives him latitude that I'm not willing to extend to him.

Dude had countless opportunities to re-think his stance on 'Race in America' before that fateful day. He had an hour's worth of moments in that church to re-think/rescind his plan. He had The Perfect Opportunity to hear and see God At Work in the hour+ that he sat there... before he pumped a barrage of bullets into the bodies of nine God-loving people.


This had far less to do with 'demonic possession' than it did with the evils of bigotry and ignorance. Those are man-made manifestations.... and I have no problem with seeing him tried, convicted, and sentenced to the same fate that he chose for innocent people that he didn't even know.

Those 9 people were just mere "things" to him.

He's a "thing" to me, as well.

To describe this man as "a victim of demonic possession" gives him the same human status as the Church-going, God-loving people he slaughtered. I'm not willing to do that.

He doesn't deserve that status.

Let The State execute him, tried by the Court of Man... and may God deal with whatever 'soul' is released by the chemicals in his bloodstream.

The sooner Mankind is rid of him, the better. I call it: "addition by subtraction."



And YES... if I were the judge presiding over a 'guilty' death penalty verdict, I'd have no trouble whatsoever decreeing that he be lynched at the end of a rope, as his manner of execution. Let the punishment mirror past practice.

Why not?

Hundreds, if not thousands of his victims' ancestors found their lives ended in just the same fashion... most, without benefit of a real trial. Many others were victim of the same fate after 'kangaroo trials' that were performed merely for the purpose of spectacle. Eye for an eye, yo.

It was good enough for The Old Testament. It's good enough for me today.

If Black Americans want true "restitution," this might be the only way to ensure that it ever really happens: kill virulent racists in the same barbaric fashion that they killed US.

I'd happily take seeing thugs like this swinging from a tree over my "40 acres and a mule."....


...for the next 150-300 years.

Maybe then, the books will actually START to get balanced.



"Eye for an eye," indeed.

What is the axiom .... and eye for an eye leaves everyone blind?

I am not saying that he did not do this on his own ..... but man, sometimes people do things that truly make me wonder if they aren't possessed by something more evil than anyone on this earth could conceive of.

Like draft Brandon Weeden in the first round?

To even suggest that demonic possession could be the cause of something this butthole had stated he was going to do for months (as accounted by his roommate) and had made several preceding gestures towards (the racist imagery photos, the menacing gun pictures, RSA & Rhodesia patches, the online diatribe) is downright minimizing, hurtful, and dehumanizing to the individuals who were victims here. Of course that is not your intention, but it is the effect. Suggesting anything other than planning, choice, and execution... Cold, hard, deliberate ruthlessness... to snuff out these individuals flames minimizes the cruelty of their loss and the symbolism, message, and intention behind it. Even the suggestion of possession introduces an aspect of "oh, he had no choice in the manner," which is about as disrespectful to the memories of these people as you can get IMO.

I understeand your thoughts, YTown- I truly do.

BUT:

The rest of us must live in this world we have created... and sometimes, it falls upon us to rectify the evils that we do to one another. It's why we live in a nation that is built upon The Rule of Law.

What this piece of human detritus did is an affront to everything that our nation is supposed to stand for... and explaining it away with euphemisms such as "mental illness" or "demonic possession" only serves to minimize the REAL reason why he did it.

He hated Black people, and sought to kill as many as he could... for no other reason than the fact that they were Black.

Demons didn't do this. A [profanity removed] White person gunned down 9 innocent Black American Citizens for no reason other than that they were black in "his America."

He said so, in no uncertain terms. He said it to the lone Black American he spared... so that "his message" would get out to the entire world.

He was a terrorist, pure and simple. A 'jihadist' who chose race as his motivation.


PLEEEEASE don't try to portray this as anything other than what it is. There are White Americans who believe that Black Americans deserve to die... for no reason other than the fact that they were born Black in America.

It's an inescapable, undeniable, 'inconvenient truth' about this country that you and I both co-habit.


As JulesDawg would say: "People are no damned good."


This one fits that description... and he's a White American. A White American who gunned down Black Americans because they were alive in 'his' country.


__________________________

There is no getting around this set of facts... and I won't allow you to minimize what he did (or why he did it) with obfuscations that hint at 'demonic possession' or some such rationalization.

My People have been burying family members for over 400 years, while listening to crap just like this 'explaining it away.'

Please forgive me, if such weakass 'explanations' no longer fly.
No, wait... I'll amend that sentiment to say this, instead:

I don't ask your forgiveness for the way I feel tonight.

I no longer care what you think of me or the way I feel. What I've seen in my own lifetime tells me all I need to know about compassion, forgiveness and "understanding": It flows in one direction... from those who run the country down to those who don't.


If we truly lived by the tenets that we espouse as a nation, NONE OF US would be trying to explain away this shitty example of human baseness with something as lame as 'demonic possession.'

White Americans (not "demons") need to own this one... and they need to take a long look in the mirror, to figure out how far or how closely they relate to this person.

Boy said as much, just before he opened fire: "I'm here to kill Black people."

No blinking.
No excuses.
No 'what-if's.'


Don't put this on 'demons.'
Demons didn't pull that trigger.

All I can say is that I am sorry that you took my post in that manner. It was not intended to offend anyone, but was simply a statement that I cannot see how anyone can hate so much that they do something like that, and that this kind of hatred does almost make me believe in demonic possession ... precisely because it is so inhuman.

I have also lost brothers and sisters in Christ as a result of this attack, and that also happens far too often in this world of ours. I pray for their families and friends, and thank God for the example that they set for me, of how to forgive as God forgives us.

The law will determine this .... person's fate here on earth. If he does not repent and accept Christ, then I believe that he will continue to pay for his sins long after this life is over for him, and I expect that he will have an extremely difficult time standing before God and trying to explain how he could do such a thing to God's children, in God's house.

Clem,

You are probably the last person I would call out on this board, but that statement is garbage. What that crazy man did does not fall on anybody else just for the color of their skin, unless they would support that type of thing, anymore than a black man committing a crime against a white person falls on any other black person, or any other race.

I grew up in the inner city, went to Cleveland Public Schools. For middle school went to Patrick Henry Jr High which is in the Glenville neighborhood. Since I was an idiot kid I used to get suspended from the school bus occasionally and had to catch public transportation(RTA). Got chased down the street many times for being white in a all black neighborhood. Should I blame all black folks? Or the idiot individuals who committed these crimes?

Black people dont want to be labeled thugs and gangsters(rightfully so) because of the actions of some people who share nothing with them but the color of their skin, but somehow ALL white people are supposed to be held responsible for the actions of ALL whites.

Maybe I'm not understanding to what degree these laws are not being enforced or how gun killing sprees would be effected by enforcement.

If he didn't have a license to carry how could that have stopped him when the people who welcomed him obviously didn't know he had a gun?

I understand the concern for the appeals process in our justice system, but I don't see any of this changing the mind of a gun killing spree killer.

How does any of this change the fact most gun spree killers get their guns legally?

yes, because to a lot of people, that's how it's suppose to work.

Take DC for example. he believes everytime a terrorist attack happens, all muslims should denounce that activity everytime it happens.

that goes for any demographic.

so if that applies to muslims, black, etc, shouldn't that also apply to whites?

I for one was glad to see everyone gather on Sunday to praise the Lord and begin the healing process. For Black and White alike.

I prayed for peace and was very concerned there would be more attacks or new attacks in retribution. This would have served to give that young man his wish of Race War. Instead, there was peace, there was prayer, there was love. For Black and White alike.

Now I read here where some are calling for Whites to own the hatred of that young man and the crime he committed which to me sounds as bad as people who would suggest Blacks should own these murders because they somehow deserve it.

This attitude only serves to support the message the killer was sending and serves to promote his cause.

To me, this whole incident is a People problem, a problem of the Society we live in, and one we must turn into a rallying point to bring us closer together. Black and White alike.

No, not really. I try to judge people as individuals, and wish I could expect the same

Actually, in a hand to hand situation, you are better off facing a man with a gun, A gun only has one direction it can kill, and if you can get your hand on the barrel, you control where it points (this is assuming it's not a surprise attack, and/or the shooter does not shoot instantly). A knife on the other hand can damage from many directions, and it's harder to get control of it without getting cut.

definitely not, as just like with a gun, a knife requires some sort of precision.

but remember, unlike a gun, i can DODGE a knife attack. this isn't the matrix, i won't be dodging any bullets.

somebody can shoot a gun faster than i can react to trying to take the barrel away. nobody on this board, and barely anybody in real life is as fast a bruce lee.

on top of that, yes, in a surprise attack, chances of survival are still higher with knives than guns.

this is a very silly sidebar. Guns are more dangerous than knives. That's why they were made. We already had knives and we said "how can we kill those other guys with knives? Let's make guns.

Can you imagine if this guy had a gun instead of a knife? None of the 22 victims, who were children, died.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2012/12/14/china-school-stabbings/1770395/ (Note: 2012 story)

BEIJING (AP) — A knife-wielding man injured 22 children and one adult outside a primary school in central China as students were arriving for classes Friday, police said, the latest in a series of periodic rampage attacks at Chinese schools and kindergartens.

The attack in the Henan province village of Chengping happened shortly before 8 a.m., said a police officer from Guangshan county, where the village is located.

The attacker, 36-year-old villager Min Yingjun, is now in police custody, said the officer, who declined to give her name, as is customary among Chinese civil servants.

A Guangshan county hospital administrator said the man first attacked an elderly woman, then students, before being subdued by security guards who have been posted across China following a spate of school attacks in recent years. He said there were no deaths among the nine students admitted, although two badly injured children had been transferred to better-equipped hospitals outside the county.

A doctor at Guangshan's hospital of traditional Chinese medicine said that seven students had been admitted, but that none were seriously injured.

Neither the hospital administrator nor the doctor would give his name.

It was not clear how old the injured children were, but Chinese primary school pupils are generally 6-11 years old.

A notice posted on the Guangshan county government's website confirmed the number of injured and said an emergency response team had been set up to investigate the attacks.

No motive was given for the stabbings, which echo a string of similar assaults against schoolchildren in 2010 that killed nearly 20 and wounded more than 50. The most recent such attack took place in August, when a knife-wielding man broke into a middle school in the southern city of Nanchang and stabbed two students before fleeing.

Most of the attackers have been mentally disturbed men involved in personal disputes or unable to adjust to the rapid pace of social change in China, underscoring grave weaknesses in the antiquated Chinese medical system's ability to diagnose and treat psychiatric illness.

In one of the worst incidents, a man described as an unemployed, middle-aged doctor killed eight children with a knife in March 2010 to vent his anger over a thwarted romantic relationship.

I said in hand to hand, and assuming the shooter doesn't shoot on sight. Guns are best at range, up close their precision can be severely hampered if your prepared.