DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Cavs/Finals/NBA thread continued...

I'm torn on Andy man...like sometimes i wish we could keep the same roster with maybe 2 upgrades, but i know it's not realistic.

TT is a better board crasher, but andy attacks the glass and has scoring as well. I think he's better on the FT line.

however, TT stays healthy, and thats a huge thing. TT and Mosgov on the floor together was just something of beauty to me, IMO.

I think we need to keep JR. I seriously think he reverted back to "when in doubt, shoot" cause we was destroyed by injuries. Him and TT coming off the bench would be great, especially if we add a Mo Williams to that. We could really have a true bench, like GS, where they take all their starters off the floor, and the bench can still produce. that was something we couldn't do all season long, and it bit us in the ass in the finals.

The Cavs should be trying to get a backup point guard who can guard people and make a shot or two. That is not Mo Williams.

Sergio Rodriguez is probably coming back to the NBA from Spain. The Cavs should take a look at him.

In the end, they will probably end up with someone like Norris Cole. Because, you know.

I love Andy, too.

I just think that TT is too good to let him walk.

Again, I don't know anything about the cap or contracts. We probably can't keep them both, right?

I agree, gritty tough player that's just not good enough on the big stage. Like you, I'm just not sure about keeping him. I think there are better options.

You would have to do 3 things:

1) Trade a guy who you just signed to an extension. This would probably create some 2nd looks from players, as they would wonder if they could be here for a year, then gone, even with a long term deal.

2) Get someone to trade for him. I don't think that the team can afford to trade away from draft picks to get teams to take on questionable contracts for us.

3) Give up his final year on that contract, that creates another scenario with a non-guaranteed deal that can be used as an asset.

I just don't see us giving up on Andy in year 1 of his extension. Remember, Lebron absolutely loves Andy as well.

I think that it may well come down to either Love or Thompson, and the team saying to Lebron, "We can really afford to pay one guy or the other, and having 2 max contracts at the PF position really makes no sense, so which guy do you want to keep?

I cannot see keeping Thompson over Love in any scenario. Thompson is a very useful player, but Love is so far superior on the offensive end, and also in passing, that it is a no-brainer to keep him. He got hurt, not because of an accident, not because he's injury prone, but because a player yanked his arm out of the socket.

There is a possibility that either Love or Thompson, or both, signed a 1 year and a player option deal, and we keep both for a year. I just don't see us signing both guys to a long term deal.



Not a chance. I would not trade Kyrie, because he gives us exactly what we were missing in the playoffs, that being a consistent scorer, who can also be explosive. He showed so much progress this year, really on both sides of the ball, and I expect him to continue to improve next year. Our lack of a 2nd offensive option is why we lost the Finals. JR cannot be that 2nd option, because that makes teams able to concentrate on him. On a team with Thompson and Conley in place of Love and Irving, we are right where we started in the Finals .... with a team that is extremely limited offensively. Plus, the thing about Kyrie is that his talents can mesh with Lebron. If we get another guy that can only really drive, then we risk clogging up the middle with him and Lebron, especially if Thompson is in the game. Kyrie is able to knock down outside shots, and also has learned to play without the ball. (extremely important on a team with Lebron, who is going to dominate the ball)

We need floor spacing, and Kyrie and Love give us that, and the scenarios you propose do not. IIRC, we were something ridiculous like 33-5 with Lebron, Kyrie, and Love starting. Fill a few holes in the supporting cast, and go win it all.

And I think that is going to be a problem for anyone we get, because that backup PG is going to play 10-15 minutes/night, and if he does that all year long, he is not going to be physically prepared to go 40/night.

He averaged 20 minutes/night during the regular season. In the playoffs, against Golden State, he went for 9, (when Kyrie played) 42, 39, 33, 42, and 25. It is hard to go from playing sparingly to going full out as a starter, against the best team in the NBA last year, against the MVP, in the NBA Finals no less. He also had to change how he played, as when he played with the backups, he handled the ball more, and playing with Lebron, obviously, he did not. Delly is a darn good backup.

The last thing I want to see the team do is overreact. We have a team that went to game 6 in the NBA Finals while missing 2 of its best players, and with another guy missing, who started before he got hurt.

We will probably lose Thompson. We may lose Miller and Jones. Marion is gone, as are Haywood and Perkins. We have those 6 spots to fill/upgrade, and little money with which to do so. There is no sense creating more holes that we will have little ability to fill. We will have Haywood's non-guaranteed deal, but IIRC, with us being as far over the cap as we'll be, we can only take back the same level of a contract. We cannot exceed that $10 million. That shouldn't be a problem, but it will limit the contracts we can take back.

Anyway, I hope that we do not overreact and do stupid things that blow up the core of this team. Fortunately I do not believe that Griffin is the kind of guy to do that kind of thing.

That's going to be difficult and a lot of it is going to fall on TT. He's already supposedly turned down 13 million a year. Anything higher, and he's looking at a Kyrie-like 15 million-ish Early Bird max contract extension. Do we really want that for the guy we saw in the finals? If he does want that kind of money, we may have to give up re-signing Love just to afford it. I think I've said before, Love will come back. He's pretty much promised it. The only way he doesn't come back is if the Cavs don't want him back ... and that would be because they prefer TT over him.




He's opting out of his deal, but my guess is he wants something more long term.




We can't part ways with Andy. NBA contracts are guaranteed. We'd have to trade him to "part ways" and since he's on the first year of a $10 million contract extension and just coming off a major injury, good luck finding a trade partner. If we can bring him off the bench and limit his minutes, he would be a better offensive version of TT. He can get his rebounds, he can hit those backside layups from any angle, and he can drain an elbow jumper. He's overpriced, but he's a valuable big if he can really come back 95-100% from his injury.



Going to be a tough sell to bring a guy in here that checks all those boxes and is willing to sit on the bench half the time ... and oh yeah, sign for a veteran minimum. Unless of course you want to use up the Haywood trade chip on a PG.



We have none and aren't even close to being under it. We're also over the tax apron I believe, which means we can't even sign people to the mid-level exception. The only thing we can do is work out some sort of sign and trade with a team that's going to lose a guy in Free Agency. They still don't HAVE to agree to that though. So the only way we can pull in new guys is via trade or vet minimum signings.

The only trade-able assets we have right now: Haywood's $10 million non-guaranteed contract and Mike Miller's $3 million expiring deal. Our draft picks will be in the upper 20's, so no real value there.

Report: Cavaliers shopping Brendan Haywood, first round pick in trade to try to upgrade the roster

Not really a surprise.

Trading Kyrie for Conley is a desperation move in the same vein of Love for Wiggins. We really have to consider the long term with this team. We need to realize that winning a Championship is a failure for us. We have the talent and coaching for a possible dynasty. We need to work our way towards achieving our limitless potential.

As for point guards: I would love Mo Williams. He's a bit old and he can't play defense, but would be a great stand in for Kyrie during the regular season. I don't really feel comfortable with any backup playing in the playoffs, but I feel more comfortable with him and Delly. Delly can come out and give it his all for 3 games, but he can't do anything outside of hustling. Mo could possibly provide us with some playoff production, but it'd be silly to rely on him for anything more than a 3 pointer a game at best in the playoffs. Like most veteran, career-average players, you can't rely on him in the playoffs. But hopefully Kyrie isn't crippled throughout two series. If we can't get Mo, I'd love to somehow steal Cory Joseph from the Spurs. I don't think we have the finances to do so, however.

Wings: I still have a lot of faith in Iman. He's 24 and could really develop to be a 3 and D guy. I don't think there's a better place for him to develop his 3 point shot than here. However, I think this is the most crucial part of the off season. With our small ball lineup where LBJ plays PF, we can't have JR and Iman both playing. JR and Iman are just way too
unreliable for our offense to put up with either of them, whether or not LBJ is on the floor. JR's defense is non-existent, so if both him and Iman are cold than these are the opportunities for teams to close gaps, take leads and widen them. We either need a wingman who can shoot reliably (Unlike JR) AND play, at least, minimal defense (Unlike JR as well). Who we get at point guard could tip our hands. If we get a shooter like Mo, then we should look to fortify the D with a wingman. Aminu would be my dream pick up. I just really, really like him. I wish we would have signed him instead of Joe Harris or James Jones. Another sleeper I like this free agent class is John Jenkins. He shot the ball extremely well from deep with Atlanta this year. He's unathletic and that kills him on defense and can hurt his playmaking abilities as well. But, in the right system, he can thrive. I think Blatt could work his skills into our offense without a hitch. I hate to spread rumors, but I've been hearing some small talk about Wilson Chandler being a possible Cavs destination. Obviously that would be the best thing to happen in the offseason.

Big Men: Unneeded. Between TT, Love and Andy getting 35ish million dollars a year it doesn't leave much in the room of budgets. No free agents who fit our needs are in the minimum salary and none are worth the MLE. Just sign a UDFA or a D-Leaguer.

Overall: Kendrick Perkins and Shawn (Should have 3 Rings and have been considered a top SF) won't be back. We have two spots open and we still have a first rounder...for now so hopefully we play a bit in free agency.

Actually, until the Finals, JR's defense was pretty solid. He was somewhat up and down in the ECF, but he was very good on defense during the regular season, and really surprised me with how much effort he put in on defense.

Kyle Korver was also one of the best 3 point shooters in the regular season despite an above average career. However, in the playoffs, he reverted back to his old self. I need to see more consistency before I label it as non-existent. Don't get me wrong, he's a lot better than James Harden, but his defense is still non-existent. But I think this will change by the all-star break next year. He's working with LBJ now. You don't slack around a King. You can slack around Melo, but you can't slack around the King. Don't believe? Just ask Melo:

https://youtu.be/aD2N2nfVWjY?t=91

j/c: I appreciate all the information about the cap related issues. That's helpful.

--YTown, you forgot to mention Love's outside shooting when talking about trading Kyrie for Conley. Love is option number one when it comes to spot-up shooting.

--I disagree w/you guys on TT. It kinda amazes me that so many of you seemingly miss what he is doing for the team. He is our best off the ball defender and does a nice job on switching. His rebounding prowess makes teams change how they defend us. He doesn't require a lot of shots and that is huge on a team that already has 3 guys that want a high volume of shots. He also has the same agent as LeBron and I think he should--and will--be back.

--One other thing. Improving our perimeter defense doesn't seem to be a big thing w/you guys. I read a lot of posts throughout the year that always put the blame on the bigs and none of you are now talking about finding a PG who can defend on the ball. Personally, I think it is one our very biggest needs. You can't give opposing PGs clear paths to the hole. You can't allow them to get into their offensive sets so easy and make easy entry passes. We need a guy who gets in the opposing PG's hip pocket on the dribble and his face when passing/shooting.

Good discussion. I am enjoying it.

I've seen this suggested-

Package pick 24 + Haywood's contract for Wilson Chandler / Aaron Afflalo

Dwyane Wade's dad photographed at some church event... In a Cavs shirt.

Gotta love NBA offseason.

If we have both Love and Thompson as max players, where do you play Thompson? Also, since Thompson will play when Love is on the bench, who becomes the 2nd offensive option at those times?

Love would be the starter, and Thompson would come off the bench. You certainly do not move Thompson ahead of Love. Love's offensive game is so far ahead of anything Thompson has that it's unfair to even compare them. I think that people forget just how good a rebounder Love is, and his passing is exceptional as well. Love averaged almost 34 minutes/game this past season.

I certainly don't want to move Thompson ahead of Mozgov. Mozgov is our best help defender under the basket. Mozgov is also a far superior offensive player to Thompson. Thompson's lone advantage over Mozgov is his offensive rebounding. Mozgov played 25 minutes/game last year.

So, between the minutes Moz and Love don't play, there are enough to give Thompson and/or Andy. Does that mean he should get a max deal? I don't know. Terry Pluto had a column about this, and he makes the point that a 4 year max deal might not be too bad with the anticipated cap explosion to come. That might make sense.

What does not make sense to me is trading away Kyrie. Kyrie is so explosive offensively, and has molded his game to fit so well with Lebron's, that I just see no way we trade him. While you make a point that we would have Love as a 2nd offensive option, it is much better to have 2nd and 3rd scoring options who are both every bit good enough to be a #1 scoring option. If we had either Love or Kyrie in the Finals, a good case could be made that we would probably have won. We were hit by the worst imaginable luck, and lost 2/3 of our Big 3. That probably is not going to happen every year. (at least I sure hope not)

After the trades, we were 33-5 in game started by Lebron, Kyrie, and Kevin Love. We have no problem there.

As far as the PG defense ..... actually, Kyrie improved his defense a great deal this year. He's not a great defender, but he is an effective, and improving defender. No none is going to shut out a guy like Steph Curry, and certainly not over the course of a 5-7 game series. The best possible outcome is to slow him down, and limit him. Kyrie is capable of that when he is healthy. Plus, we can move guys around on defense, especially with a guy like Shumpert, to help if a team has a superstar PG. We can also use Delly in short stretches to get on the opposing PGs nerves.

I think that it would be a huge mistake to give away Kyrie Irving, when he is still developing, and took such a massive step forward last year. There is no need to blow things up in Cleveland ..... just fine tune what we have.

TT is perfect coming off the bench. i think he's accepted that role as well.

in theory, if we was able to sign both to max, we wouldn't have to swap starters. Also, i highly doubt love would be willing to come off the bench, regardless of money or not, but TT will, and has.

I don't think TT will get the max. I think the King will get off his throne and remind TT that he's a commander in the squash, but not the general. That said 16 mil will keep TT happy.

I would think so ... 15 million is an early bird max deal. I don't see how we give TT a max deal to come off the bench though.

Your tone sounds angry and defiant. I'm sorry. I was trying to ignite conversation. I'm sorry if that made you angry.

In fact, I actually thought the conversation was pretty good. We were all participating w/out any of the BS that happens on the Pure Football forum.

I am not demanding you agree and it's okay w/me if you disagree. I don't see why you are getting all indignant about it though.

I see Love, TT, and Moz as a three man rotation. Each has their own skill sets and brings something to the table.

I do not think that you just play two of them the entire game.

I do think they are all fine players and are better than many of our other players and would help make us a better team.

I am cool w/you disagreeing, but I am not sure what you are getting so upset about.

I like TT. You don't.

Argue your case, but please don't act like I am stupid for arguing my case. That reminds me too much of the Pure Football forum. This forum has been much better in terms of looking at things w/an open mind.

Not exactly sure how one can determine somebody's "tone" over a text conversation. He sounded pretty level-headed to me, and laid out some good counter-arguments as to why we shouldn't get to drastic about our changes.

I also don't see where he's getting angry, upset or indignant to you. And where is he implying you're stupid?

He sounds like he's echoing a lot of people's opinions. We have a team that came two wins away from the finals with half of it's starters on the bench. If we resist the urge to do a complete make-over, we should be just fine.

I agree, I think Ytown is one of the most even keeled people on here.

Just wondering if we could sign another player for the same price of TT? Essentially, what I'm asking — worst comes to worst and we lose TT — how much cap would we have? I know having TT's bird rights let us go over the cap, so I'm not sure how much we can use to sign a replacement if we do lose him.

if we lose TT, there's no replacement i see in the NBA right now. Best offensive rebounder, and one of the best rebounders in the league period. we need that. we HAVE to keep TT

Let's make this clear ... We have NO CAP ROOM.

We have Kyrie, Lebron and K-Love signed for max contracts, which is usually close to 30% of your cap for each contract. We've got Andy signed up for $10 million a year, Mike Miller for $3 million, and we'll probably put qualifying offers on everyone we can. Our cap is toast. We can only trade for people or look for sign and trades. (or trades)

Thanks guys ..... I reread what I wrote just to make sure I wasn't saying something I didn't intend.

Vers .... the 1st part of my post was actually me kind of arguing with myself about Thompson.

As far as the part about Kyrie, I stand by that. I certainly don't want to give up one of our very best offensive weapons. Also, one other thing to keep in mind ...... I wonder if Curry would have been at all effective come a game 6 or 7 if he had to chase Kyrie all over the place on defense. I think that would have worn on him, much as chasing him around wore on Delly and Shumpert.

Further, in the Finals, probably our biggest problem is that we could not knock down shots from outside. At all. If we could have knocked down a half dozen of the open looks we had in that last game, we would have won. Same thing in game 5 .... especially in game 5. We could have completely turned that game around if we could have hit a few shots in the early to mid going. In game 5, we only scored 17 points in the 3rd quarter. If I added them up right, we went 6-17 shooting in the 3rd quarter of game 5. We shot some free throws, and made about half. We had 3 turnovers in that one quarter. I think that Kyrie would have helped dramatically in all regards.

Man, I just think about what might have been if we would have been able to get a score at the very end of game 1. Kyrie would not have been hurt. We might have turned the whole series around right there.

I'm glad you could understand my post. Thanks for the confirming what I expected.

I think with James, Love and Smith Opting out, that allows us to sign help, then resign those guys. The nba contract web is quite complex, but I'm pretty sure I read thats another reason why they all will opt out.

As far as signing Thompson, I think alot are overvaluing him...he is not a max player, in fact, 13 mill/year I think was extremely fair and over paying for a guy that only gives you offensive rebounding. He is not a good over all rebounder, Kevin Love is..especially as a defensive rebounder. People forget how dominant Klove is on the boards, plus he can give you 20+ points any given night, yet you want to give TT kyrie money? No way in hell. I'd be looking to do sign and trade. But in the end I'm going to trust Griffin. I really hope he finds a legit 2 and a backup PG, i think everything else beyond that is gravy. We have some chips to get those two filled, even if we brought everyone back and upgraded those 2..i think we'd be a force.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2015_leaders.html

NBA salary cap doesn't work like that. All of their contracts still work against your cap until you completely renounce them or they sign with another team. We won't get any cap relief from that. Our best chance is to just re-sign everyone for reasonable amounts because we aren't getting anyone amazing through free-agency, unless we do a sign-and-trade for Haywood's contract. Even then, the other team would have to go along with it, so it's by no means an easy thing to pull off.



I agree with you on Thompson. I just don't think he's worth Kyrie money. We'll probably end up giving him that because of Lebron, but we're going to end up giving a guy a max deal to come off the bench. That just doesn't seem like good economics.

I think Shumpert can be a legit Tony-Allen type 2-guard. I don't know how much his shoulder injury affected him in the Finals, but he can at least play defense and is a threat to score when he's NOT needed to be the #2 option. Same thing with JR. He was lethal when he could sit off the ball and nail wide-open jumpers. He struggled in the Finals when has had to go back to being NY Knick JR.

I do think we should get a good offensive backup PG though. Not to replace Delly, but to compliment him. Just like JR and Shump, we can't really expect him to come out and be the guy running the offense, but if he's the 11th or 12th guy coming off your bench, then you're in great shape. He's probably still going to come cheap compared to anyone else we can get to replace him. Not sure if Mo Williams is the guy though, but it's an interesting option, if he's willing to sign for a minimum deal.

I agree. I like Tristan Thompson a lot but even I am a bit concerned about giving him a contract avg. $13M/year. He definitely isn't a max contract player. No way.

Assuming Love is coming back (which may not be true) Tristan will come off the bench. Minutes may actually go down for him more with a healthy Varejao and Mosgov. With his offensive game lacking (not counting off. boards which he is amazing at) I am concerned he wants the moon, and being on Lebron's agent team, he might get what he wants.To me, he is the Buster Skrine of the Cleveland Cavaliers. I want him to come back but only if the money makes sense.

IF Lebron, Love, and Irving all come back (crossing fingers), with the contract of Varejao on the books, signing Tristan is going to be tough beyond just blindly accepting the huge luxury tax that will follow.

An issue for Varejao is that the team has proven it can get to the Finals w/o him. Maybe he is a trade piece? I doubt it because of age and injury history (and the fact he is not an expiring contract) that he could be a valuable piece. Not too mention trading someone and their contract also mean taking on money as well-- it'll be a tough thing to do.

This offseason will be very interesting to see--from who we have coming back, the little available $$$, and of course the 2nd GM on the team, Lebron James and his input.

Yeah, Andy isn't really a trade-able asset at all. He has three years left at ~$10 mil a year.

Let's take a look at the salaries again ...
Keep in mind that the CAP is going to be around 63 million, the luxury tax limit is $76.8 and the tax apron is as 80.8 million. Assuming that players that opt out of their player option will get the same level of money or more ... we're already 8 million OVER THE APRON (88 Million). So free-agents, mid-level exceptions and pretty much anything that can squeeze a guy onto a team outside a minimum contract is out the window.





So what I think happens:
- All RFA's will get qualifying offers or a straight up extension if they don't get too greedy. We'll probably match anything they get offered or play them on the qual offer and take our chances in free agency next year.

- Haywood will get flipped for one decent player (combo-guard?) and one bad contract to fill the spot vacated by Marion

- The other two guys leaving will get replaced by our two draft picks.

- Lebron, Love and JR will opt-out and re-sign one year deals. Love and Lebron will get the max. Not sure what happens to JR, but I imagine he'll stay for around the same price. Maybe a million or two more.

- We can MAYBE flip Mike Miller's expiring deal for something, but really, we're not going to get much in return if anything at all.

- We roll out basically the same team as last year, with an added combo-guard ... Which is probably a good thing.

Great info!



For the most part, I agree. And if we were healthy, that could have done the trick to win it all.

'Phil Jackson: LeBron James travels half the time he catches the ball'

http://probasketballtalk.nbcsports.com/2...partner=ya5nbcs

Dan Feldman Jun 22, 2015, 10:28 AM EDT

Get off Phil Jackson’s lawn.

The 69-year-old Knicks president thinks basketball has lost its way, and he cited LeBron James when outlining the problems.

Phil Jackson, via Howard Beck of Bleacher Report:


“I watch LeBron James, for example,” he said. “He might [travel] every other time he catches the basketball if he’s off the ball. He catches the ball, moves both his feet. You see it happen all the time. There’s no structure, there’s no discipline, there’s no ‘How do we play this game’ type of attitude. And it goes all the way through the game. To the point where now guys don’t screen—they push guys off with their hands.”

He concluded: “It struck me: How can we get so far away from the real truth of what we’re trying to do? And if you give people structure, just like a jazz musician—he’s gotta learn melody, and he’s gotta learn the basic parts of music—and then he can learn how to improvise. And that’s basically what team play is all about.”

The agitation in Jackson’s voice is evident.

“The game actually has some beauty to it, and we’ve kind of taken some of that out of it to make it individualized,” Jackson said. “It’s a lot of who we are as a country, individualized stuff.”

Indeed, Jackson seems much less concerned with validating the triangle than with the state of the game itself.

“When I watch some of these playoff games, and I look at what’s being run out there, as what people call an offense, it’s really quite remarkable to see how far our game has fallen from a team game,” Jackson said. “Four guys stand around watching one guy dribble a basketball.”

Kids these days – ruining America with their individualized offenses. Or is it the other way around?

Anyway, Jackson comes across like a grumpy old man, far too obsessed with how they did it in his day rather than what actually works now.

There was no better example of an individualized offense than the playoff Cavaliers, who funneled everything though LeBron. And they scored more points per 100 possessions with LeBron on the floor (104.2) than the regular-season Knicks (97.1). Even in the Finals – with LeBron intentionally bogging down the offense to slow the game and against the Warriors’ NBA-best defense – Cleveland still scored more with LeBron on the floor (97.3) than the regular-season Knicks.

Maybe the script flips once (if?) Phil Jackson acquires better players. But Jackson’s attitude doesn’t give me much confidence. Even if he’s no longer framing his complaints around the triangle offense, he seems too obsessed about the wrong things

I’ll take effective over aesthetically pleasing.



(end)

It should read:

"Most NBA players travel half the time they catch the ball. "

Or it could read, "Phil Jackson rants, finishes Raisin Bran, and farts."

Kinda funny Phil brings up traveling after having coached Jordan, who almost always took an extra step when driving the ball.

Tim Duncan travels every time he catches the ball at the top of the key. I think he's done this his entire career. I've never seen it called.

Why would they opt out of a one year player option.. just to sign a one year deal?