DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Same-Sex Marriage Ruled Constitutional

In Jewish society there were 2 classes of slaves, and Jewish slaves of Jewish "masters" were a temporary arrangement, that would directly benefit the slave when released from his service.

The verse you posted, IIRC, said that slaves should obey their masters, and serve them as well as they can. That is consistent with the message of Christianity, especially given the nature of slavery in Israel.(which often is not what we think of as slavery today) Jesus said to render unto Caesar that which belongs to Caesar. Jesus always said to respect the authority above you, as long as it is not ordering you to so ungodly things.

As far as why we don't stone adulterers, it is because we no longer follow that law. We do not judge others. That does not mean that we do not help people to see their sins though, and it certainly does not mean that we accept, and encourage sin.

There is a fine line, but Jesus never once condoned a person's sin. Not once did He say, "Go ahead and sin as you please." He told people, instead, to go and sin no more. The Bible clearly outlines the nature of repentance and forgiveness. We must believe in Jesus Christ, accept Him as our Lord and Savior, and repent our sins. Lord means that we obey Him. Obedience means that we do our very best to live a sin free life. We may (and will) fail, but we should not make sin a pattern in our lives. If we do, then have we truly repented? Have we truly made a new decision, and turned from our sins?

People want to imply that Jesus somehow approved of homosexuality, but if the Bible is the Word of God,(and thus the Word of Jesus) and if the New Testament condemns homosexuality, (which it does in at least 3 different chapters) then we cannot just decide that it really doesn't. Not if we are Christians. I will say this one more time ... homosexuality is a sin. It is no more a sin than any other sin, but it is a sin, and unrepentant sin condemns a person. Open rebellion against God condemns a person.

Man, it would be so much easier for Christians to just say "Oh well, so a bunch of people want to condemn themselves .... so who cares?" However, that is not what Jesus taught us.

One other thing ... you said that a man, in the Old Testament, could not commit adultery. Tel that to King David. He managed to do so.

I wonder how the President will respond to Black pastors and ministers saying that they will commit acts of civil disobedience in response to this ruling?

It is funny that the mainstream media has not picked up on this story ..... at all.

Leader of African-American Pastors Group: Protest Gay Marriage Through Civil Disobedience
http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/bill-owens-caps-gay-marriage/2015/06/27/id/652541/

The head of an organization of African-American pastors told Newsmax Saturday that Christians must oppose the Supreme Court's gay marriage ruling through civil disobedience because "you do something to get arrested to call attention to the injustice."

"I was in the civil rights movement, so I know how to do it" the Rev. Bill Owens, president of the Coalition of African-American Pastors (CAAP), said in an interview. "When we sat at the counters at restaurants, we knew we were going to be arrested. You do things to get arrested, to call attention to it.

"So many people were silent," he added. "The church people were absolutely silent on this issue. A few leaders spoke out, but the masses of the church people were silent."

When asked why people were unwilling to speak against President Barack Obama when he came out for gay marriage in 2012, Owens responded: "The whites didn't want to come out against Obama since he endorsed it so strongly and they didn't want to be called bigots — and the blacks didn't want to say they were betraying a black man.
"I came out very powerfully against Mr. Obama when he stood for same-sex marriage."

A sharply divided Supreme Court ruled 5-4 on Friday that gays and lesbians had a legal right to marry in all 50 states. Only 36 states and the District of Columbia had allowed gay marriage.

Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote the majority opinion, just as he did in the court's previous three major gay rights cases dating back to 1996.

Chief Justice John Roberts and the courts three other conservatives — Justices Antonin Scalia, Samuel Alito, and Clarence Thomas — each filed their own separate dissenting opinions.

Scalia slammed the majority's opinion as a "threat to American democracy."

The decision "says that my ruler and the ruler of 320 million Americans coast-to-coast, is a majority of the nine lawyers on the Supreme Court," Scalia said.

Founded in 1993, CAAP is based in Memphis and has more than 7,000 members. In 2012, the group spoke out against both President Obama and the NAACP for their gay marriage support.

In April, the group called on liberal Justices Ruth Bader Ginsberg and Elena Kagan to recuse themselves from the case because of their "stated bias" on the issue.

"Their positions were already known," Owens told Newsmax. "That takes away from the credibility of the court's decision.

"They got it wrong in the Dred Scott case," he added, referring to the 1857 court ruling that blacks were property and not American citizens. "The Supreme Court doesn't always get it right. This is one time they really got it wrong."

Despite the court's ruling, "I absolutely would not do a gay marriage," Owens declared. "Absolutely.

"I think of our children," Owens continued. He is the father of two young adopted children. "What it's going to do to our children. What kind of world are they going to grow up in?

"I've said for two years that we're going to have to have civil disobedience. They were very cunning in the way they did it," he said, referencing gay-rights advocates.

"Since I was in the civil rights movement, I know that if the people come together in force, things will happen. How they will happen, I don't know.

"The homosexual community has not shown all of what it's going to do," Owens said. He mentioned a 2013 California law that allows boys and girls to use the same bathrooms and showers in public schools.

"They have a game plan that, now that the Supreme Court has ruled, will take this country down a very immoral path," Owens said.

He told Newsmax that he believed that President Obama had always supported gay marriage.

"I knew that he was going to do it the second term," Owens told Newsmax. "His deal was, 'Get me elected the first time, and I'll come out for same-sex marriage in my second term.'

"He deceived the American people, because the black community would not have backed him had he come out the first time for same-sex marriage. Some people just didn't want to speak against Obama."

Owens reiterated his call for civil disobedience, acknowledging that "our work is cut out for us.

"It's going to be much harder, because we're going to have to go from state to state. It's going to be hard to do, but it can be done.

"Remember, blacks worked for 300 years for civil rights in the courts. Three-hundred long years. It's not something that we're going to win overnight.

"There is no quick fix, but I think now the church will rise up," Owens added. "All the Christian churches in the United States that believe that marriage is between a man and a woman, they need to rise up."

The organization is asking those who believe in traditional marriage to sign a petition on its website.

"We're asking people to rise up and be ready to go to jail," Owens told Newsmax. "Why go to jail? To let it be known that we will not bow down, we will not give up, whatever the costs.
"It’s the new civil rights movement, because they are taking away our rights. They are taking away the Christian's rights. This is just a start.

"We have nothing against homosexuals," Owens added, "but when you start talking about marriage, and then indoctrinating children, where are we going? Where is this society headed?"

Bill Maher brought it up on his show this past Friday. He used almost the exact same wording.

It's amazing that someone who participated in the civil rights movement could fail to see the obvious comparison of these civil rights violations to those.

He pretends that his rights have been violated by this decision.

Perhaps he should re-examine which god he prays to.

There are a lot of angry Christians out there who for some weird reason think this ruling by the Supreme Court affects them directly or threatens their rights as Americans.

Well.

It doesn't.

It might contradict their own personal/religious beliefs, but in no way, shape or form, does it directly affect any of their lives.

Chuck and Larry down the block can now get married. John Christian can still get up and got to church on Sunday. He can still get up and go to work during the week, he can still read his bible and worship Jesus as often or however he likes.

Gay marriage doesn't affect a single person except homosexuals who can now legally marry in all 50 states.

Sure it does. Photographers for example. We're having this discussion in one of my photography groups right now. If one does not want to photograph a gay wedding, their only option is to get out of the wedding photography business.

Now there is an interesting discussion ..

I don't like the way christians are responding to this. Civil disobedience, really? Probably the stupidest thing they can do.

We are all sinners. No one is a worse sinner than the other. As the song goes "they will know we are Christians by our love." That's exactly what Christians are not doing and need to be doing instead of rioting and spewing hatred at the gay community.

That's one of the best hymns I learned in school. All this proselytizing you hear today goes counter against that hymn. It's what always separated me from other when I followed Christianity. Actions, not endless Bible verses, showed individuals who I truly was. I still live by actions>words to this very day.

jc

oops

Entertainment Weekly posts image to support gay marriage

According to Jesus Adultery can be sex inside of a marriage. Mark 10 verse 11 and 12 "anyone who divorces his wife and marries another woman commits adultery against her, and if she divorces her husband and remarries another man she commits adultery.

I liked this one better.

I'd argue the left is quite critical of Obama. You just don't hear from the true left, as the democrats would rather give a loudspeaker to those who walk in line with the party.

Sure it does. Photographers for example. We're having this discussion in one of my photography groups right now. If one does not want to photograph a gay wedding, their only option is to get out of the wedding photography business.

Homo-sexual marriage isn't stepping on any of their rights in this case. They still have the right to photograph a gay marriage wedding, and they have the right to turn it down. They could also stick to straight marriages. Their are 323 million people in America, not all of them are gay.

I missed where you mentioned Paul! Sorry! I'm pretty sure I know my Bible..


But here's a verse that pretty much sums up most on DawgTalkers and around the world....2 Peter 3:15-16 (KJ2000)
15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him has written unto you;
16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable twist, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

Some interesting reading from our founding fathers.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2013/07/04/35-founding-father-quotes-conservative-christians-will-hate/

That's interesting. I have not watched anything with Bill Maher in it for years and years.

Did they not like his answer on his favorite color?

I don't want to see anyone spewing hatred at anyone. Civil disobedience can be a sit in, an unauthorized march .... (remember the marches that started the 1% stuff ... that closed down parts of major cities?) and so on. I think that the axiom of hate the sin but love the sinner should apply, and violence and vile language should be completely avoided.

Maybe it's nothing more than having a kiss-in at Chick-Fil-A.

This might make things more interesting.

Because a concealed carry license is the vehicle through which many 2nd Amendment rights are exercised in states other than your own, there seems no way to avoid the implication that a state ought to have to recognize a concealed carry license from another state, just as states are now required to recognize same sex marriage licenses from other states.

Link

And I have not debated that point.

Instead, I have said that we have too many people rushing into marriage without a realistic view of what marriage is. I have also said that divorce should never have been made as easy as it is today.

I think that we agree that divorce can be, or lead to sin. That does not lessen, or increase, any other sin. Divorce is, or can be, a sin. Homosexual sex is a sin. (according to the Bible)

I do wonder, by that verse, if the one who is on the receiving end of the divorce commits adultery as well?

Like I said, I have to research that, and ask my Pastor about it, because I don't know for sure.

Regardless, I would not encourage anyone to rush into marriage ....I would not encourage anyone to rush to divorce. We live in this microwave world, where everyone wants everything today, including a perfect marriage, and if it doesn't appear immediately, then get out. Heck, the world encourages it.

However, that still does not make any other sin less of a sin. Just because some people, for some reason, do not follow the Bible, does not mean that we should not.

Here is the full section of that chapter: 2 Peter 3: 10-17: But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare.[a]

Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy and godly lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming. That day will bring about the destruction of the heavens by fire, and the elements will melt in the heat. But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, where righteousness dwells.

So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever! Amen.


Sorry, I added a comment to this post that didn't belong here.

Where have you been! There have already been lawsuits against businesses for refusing to provide service, and this was before the law

What I know it means is people twist the scriptures to fit what they want.. The whole New Testament is pretty important.. Nome is more important then the rest.. I would like to ask. You have mentioned asking your pastor questions about certain subjects, what makes him the go to person, does your church not have elders? They're the ones that should be schooled in the scripture

Not a problem Ytown.. I was curious what you was meaning. The verse is pretty clear people twist the scriptures to fit what they want them to say!

as they should, i don't see anybody on the board disagreeing with that when DC brought it up earlier.

Ours is a United Methodist Church, and our "elder" is our Pastor. We don't have the extended clergy positions as some other denominations do.

I was United Methodist after I ventured away from the Southern Baptists. Nothing but props for the UMC.

As long as they have passed certification and follow the law (which most do), I have no problems with concealed carry permits.

You reduce slavery in the Bible to this yet do not make mention of Moses saying sexual slavery is OK in Exodus 21:7-11, or that Christian slave owners should be treated even better than non-Christian slave owners (1 Timothy 6:1-2)

If this was as simple as saying hey if you're a christian in slavery do the best you can do, I can buy into that. But Timothy is CLEAR in how you should act if your slave owner is a Christian and makes no mention that slavery is wrong. And saying "that was the time back then" is NOT a valid excuse because we can just say well gay marriage is accepted now and people just didn't approve of homosexuality back then.



Well one of the confusing portions of adultery in the Bible is the OT is clear that adultery == death. Jesus spoke a great deal about adultery as it pertains to the old laws of the Old Testament. He made no mention that death is no longer the punishment though.



The list of sins that Jesus (or the Bible in general) mention and don't mention are at odds. To read it as the Bible says, slavery is not a sin. To also read it as the bible says, Homosexuality is ambiguous in the new testament as being sinful or not. We have applied modern interpretation to what we *want to believe* is sin. We also cherry pick Leviticus to fit our desires, yet do not follow the rest of the book. To explain further on modern interpretations, Daniel 14:2 says that Daniel was the kings favorite and was held in higher esteem than any of the friends of the king. Yet friends in Aramaic is rakh-mawh, which means lovers of him. Does this not mean that Daniel was a lover of the King? Did the great prophet Daniel commit a sin? Jesus also speaks of eunuchs and not being applied to marriage and adultery for they cannot be wed to a woman. And he clarified not just eunuchs after birth but those born eunuchs as well. The Old testament also mentions born eunuchs in a clearer homosexual connotation such as Daniel 1:9.



The word of God only condemns homosexuality because you want to believe it does. There is clear evidence of white-washing and hiding of the truth in later English revisions of the Bible. The word homosexuality wasn't even added to the Bible until the 1950s. Gay men were raped (irony) and killed by straight men not too long ago in this country using the Bible as a defense.

Well David managed to commit adultery (Bathsheba) because he was dumb enough to take another mans wife. But in the OT you could be polygamous and still virtuous in the eyes of God. Even your example David had many wives and concubines and God only took issue with Bathsheba. It could even be argued that God was more upset with the murder of her husband than David lying with her.

No problem I would just caution against us treating the Bible as literal in some cases and figurative in others.

I'm very interested in this too. I mean if marriage certs an drivers licenses are 50 state recip, why not conceal carry?

I have received different opinions from pastors, ministers and preachers on this question. Beliefs change from one church to another, and among people in the same church. I just praise God for his grace to all of us because we are all a bit screwed up lol

He's more of a centrist than a liberal, and there is a segment of the left that takes issue with that. Let's not forget that on the gay marriage issue, he waited until it was politically safe to get behind it. He was late to the party on that one.

our church is of the mindset that the elder shouldn't be the pastor and that there needs to be more than one Elder. It's dangerous having one Elder as people will start thinking what he says must be true.. I can see you clearly know your Bible. I suggest you continue reading it and take more stock in what it says and not necessarily what your pastor says. Just my opinion and our churches but I'm sure you can clearly see the dangers in only one Elder

I think this quote can be used here..

To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible.
-Thomas Aquinas-

Joe Biden is the unsung hero in Obama's cabinet. He forced Barack's hand.

I treat the Bible as literal. The New Testament is the Christian Bible. The Old Testament is the Jewish law. The New Testament still shuns Homosexuality. I'm pretty much done. I'm not going to change your perspective and you're not going to change mine