DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Brown's Future...

I posted 3 or 4 weeks ago that I believed McCown would have his Andy Warhol 15 minutes of fame this coming season to take us into the second round of playoffs...

Cleveland Browns have Terry Talkin' about quarterbacks, preseason rankings and a classy former Brown -- Terry Pluto

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- We're No. 30! Or maybe it's No. 27!

Monday Morning Quarterback's Peter King rated the Browns at No. 27, writing, "I don't hate the Browns, I'm just tired of having June faith in them."

Not sure what "June faith" exactly means, other than not wanting to be caught up in any sort of summer optimism.

Meanwhile, ESPN has little faith in the Browns -- for this season or the two to follow for that matter. As noted by the website Dawgs by Nature, the Browns are 30th of 32 teams in its "future rankings" -- prospective power rankings for the next three seasons. The Browns finished ahead of only Tennessee and Jacksonville.

Wait till 2018, Browns fans? For what it's worth, ESPN ranked the Browns at No. 30 in 2012. And No. 28 in 2013. And No. 30 in 2014.

You can argue the rankings to an extent, but the problem is the Browns usually played down to the low expectations.

I do think that 2014 was different. For the first time since 2007, the Browns didn't lose 10 games. The critics will point out that the 7-9 record was deceiving because they were 7-4 ... and then lost the last five games. My view is you are your record for 16 games.

For example, the Browns won their final four games in 2009. But they finished 5-11. And that's what they were, a 5-11 team. In 2014, they were 7-9. That is an improvement from previous seasons of 4-12, 5-11, 4-12, 5-11, 5-11 and 4-12.

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2015/07/cleveland_browns_have_terry_ta_10.html

Wait till 2018, Browns fans? For what it's worth, ESPN ranked the Browns at No. 30 in 2012. And No. 28 in 2013. And No. 30 in 2014.

You can argue the rankings to an extent, but the problem is the Browns usually played down to the low expectations.

Hilarious post!...

Actually quite serious, my friend...

In have been saying at least 9 wins this coming year since last season ended.

In the past, say the stretch from 2009-2012..

I would look at the upcoming schedule, and see 3-4 games we should win.. a couple we could.. and thats about it.. and we'd end up with 4 or 5 wins..

This season? I only see two games that I legitimately think can get away from us. (SEA/DEN)

The rest I have no doubt we can compete, and win a fair share of..

I think the key is our first 3. NYJ, TEN, and OAK.. 3 very young QBs, one a rookie, one thats basically not good, and one that has promise..

Some may call it optimistic, but in reality we can easily start out 3-0.. and from there? Who knows..

You left out why they think they can beat us, #1 Josh McCown #2 Johnny

That first game, against the Jets, presents a big obstacle. They have one of the best defences, it is an away game, our systems are likely not up to speed. I have difficulty seeing us starting 3-0...

What's sad to me is that so many good fans have come to take joy in bagging on the team. Being realistic is a good thing. But it's not being realistic if at every opportunity fans take shots at the team just to be "funny" or to avoid the wrath of the overly negative vibe that has permeated nearly every discussion.

Some seem to delight in tearing stuff down. I will try to be a homer fan another season and set my expectations probably too high. Dinging this year's effort because of last year is at least premature IMO. And to pretend you have several years down the road sniffed out is silliness. May have some standout individuals, and promising squad. Trying to rank them seems tough to validate.

It's not rocket science.

Take every game we will play this year and compare the QBs.

You can predict a reasonable season record from that.

Games where QBs are a wash, like the Jets, can be a toss up. However, for some reason the Browns historically allow bad QBs to have really good games against them. It's uncanny the frequency in which this occurs. Plus the Jets are at home and they're defense is more mature than ours.

The only way to buck this trend is our defense has to be straight up legit ...kind of like the Ravens of old or McCown turns into Gannon or Manziel has a meteoric rise. I think the odds of any of these are pretty low.

That's not being a naysayer or a negative guy. I don't think people would lump me in that category overall from my posts. I keep saying this over and over and I think people should do this...you've got to understand what you're watching. When you are able to pick up on trends and patterns that happen over and over and over again I think it's easy to predict and figure things out. I think Ron Wolf was recently quoted as saying you can't compete in this league without a QB. It was in reference to the Browns and why they didn't succeed with Holmgren.

Another thing Browns fans always forget at this time of year is we aren't the only team that had a draft, FA signings, going into multiple years in the same system, etc. While we look like we have improved on paper, the main thing to consider is how have we improved relative to the other teams. When you factor that in, it may not seem like we are poised to take such a great leap.

The Browns have talent. They do. Talent gaps are myths. They just don't have a QB. I will not dispute the Browns have talent. I like this roster a lot. But our only chance at success will come when Haslam shows the patience to ride it out for a long time with Pettine and Farmer and we finally hit on the QB. We can't keep blowing it up, even if this season is a bad one. It sucks for the fans, but it's the best way to achieve long-term, sustained success.

One other point. My previous post was me trying to keep a level head and be objective about this season.

I get no joy in predicting a lousy record for the Browns. And I will still watch every game and get emotional when we lose and excited and hopeful when we win. I am a Browns fan thru and thru. It's the way I was raised. I know nothing else.

I just don't want people to misconstrue what I am saying. I would love nothing more than to be completely wrong about this upcoming season.

I don't understand the obsession with how others post.

So I see it differently then you, big friggin deal, stop telling others how to feel about the state of the Browns.

Some of the posters take there if your not with us your against us approach to damned far.

And like it or not history is a huge part of how people come to their conclusions.

But God forbid someone sit down and say here this is who we are, this is what we have done in the past. Not because it is wrong or because it lacks logic it has more to do with its not positive.

Given our recent past is it negative to say or think the Browns will not be very good, logically thinking what other possible conclusion could you realistically make? Your crying about someone not ignoring the past not weather its logical or not sheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesh.

Logic says we will not be good, logic says McCown will suck, why you ask? Because we haven't been very good and he has always sucked, history YES, Logical YES YES YES.

No one takes great joy in the logical sensible reasonable conclusion but there it is.

That does NOT mean that the team couldn't defy logic and win games, but logically this team is going to lose, as sad and upsetting as some people will find that.

This team does NOT have a QB and without that key ingredient we will lose, logic tells us all that is so.....

So if you all think that logic is the key there is NO logic in thinking that the Browns will win, just hopes, dreams, and want it to happens. But Logic NO friggen way.

That like it or not has us ranked #30..........And there is a very logical reason for that ranking, your just pissed we ALL won't ignore those reasons and the logic that brings us there.

Oh and let me add this to the list of logic.

A few years back after we canned a 5-11 coach it was said by most of this board that we are all set now.

Csar- Check
GM- Check
HC-check

We are all on the same page now winning will follow. The record for that season 4-12.

Our history says that the logical positive spin masters are usually wrong, but their not just wrong their dead wrong. So don't get mad or upset with me when I don't ignore our past, why should I logically speaking?

17 minutes later..

Ok no Franchise QB, now. yet they don't take into consideration that ,that could change in the next two years.


Draft picks; this being the second year of this front office we have 2 disappointments. Unless they consider this years picks a disappointment without seeing the field. This front office also found players later, and a few undrafted. Is it fair to rate this front office based on what our prior FO. did on draft day?

The worst QB situation ? Perhaps but that can change before the 3 yr future time runs its course. In fact that could change at cut down time, via pick up or trade.


Losing 3 pro bowlers. And that would be ward,cameron,?

Ward -replaced by a pro bowler/ Cameron- how many games has he played since his PB year ?

One big time playmaker; So we only count six players when determining as to the qualities of a good offense.



Not saying to not discuss it, just saying it's an article written to inflame the masses, and said article would have been better written covering THIS year as opposed to making it a [3 year} futures thing , when you don't include drafts,free agency, potential trades,the article loses it's reality.

Find a better bible to spout your meaning from, this article ain't it.

Rish those were two very good posts. I thought you were spot on the money and it states my sentiments exactly. Sometimes folks look at things in a bubble and don't see it big picture. That tends to cloud things a lot. Yet we all wish for the same thing.

Browns offseason report: New look in Cleveland, but same old results?


Michael Middlehurst-Schwartz, USA TODAY Sports 11:07 a.m. EDT July 6, 2015


The Cleveland Browns' look is new, but their problems are the same as ever.

The team's redesigned uniforms, unveiled in April, can't dress up the problems that have plagued the franchise for years. An ever-changing yet never resolved quarterback picture and constant turnover in coaching and the front office have left the Browns directionless since 2007, the last year the team threatened for a playoff berth.

Consider where Cleveland stood a year ago after its latest reset. Mike Pettine was brought in as coach and Ray Farmer elevated to general manager to stabilize an organization that had parted with its rookie head coach ( Rob Chudzinski) and top front office personnel (Joe Banner and Michael Lombardi). Johnny Manziel was selected in the first round as the future at quarterback.

Now the Browns aren't clear where they stand with Manziel. The former Texas A&M star spent more than 10 weeks in a rehabilitation facility, had an run-in with a fan at a golf tournament and faces an uphill battle to claim the starting spot from newly signed vet Josh McCown. It was hardly the offseason the Browns envisioned for Manziel, whose rookie season amounted to a disastrous two-game stint as the starter and ended with discipline in Week 17 for missing a walk-through.


And the quarterback intrigue was just part of the Browns' disruptive offseason.

Farmer was suspended four games for sending text messages to coaches during games last season, which constituted a violation of league policy. Wide receiver Josh Gordon was suspended for violating the NFL substance abuse policy — yet again. And Kyle Shanahan's departure to the Atlanta Falcons left the team with its sixth offensive coordinator, John DeFilippo, in six seasons.

The lingering controversies have masked the progress Pettine made in his first year. The Browns began the season 6-3 and finished with their highest win total since 2007. But a five-game losing streak to cap the season highlighted serious concerns.

Gordon's absence underscored a lack of offensive firepower on the roster. Dwayne Bowe and Brian Hartline were added this year, but neither receiver is expected to ignite the passing attack. A methodical approach with a heavy reliance on the run game fits Pettine's vision and the personnel.

The defense fell well short of the standard Pettine had set in his time with the Buffalo Bills and New York Jets. The unit gave up a league-worst 141.6 rushing yards per game and failed to generate a consistent pass rush. Free agent additions (defensive tackle Randy Starks and cornerback Tramon Williams) as well as draft reinforcements should give the team a different appearance this season.

Working for a trigger-happy organization, Pettine will have to prove the newest look is one worth keeping.

Quarterback

McCown, 35, arrives as a reclamation project after being released by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers after one season. Much like Brian Hoyer last year, he offers a stopgap solution as the franchise assesses Manziel. Despite Manziel's rookie season, Pettine has dismissed reports that the quarterback is no longer in the team's plans. Thad Lewis and Connor Shaw round out the depth chart.

Running back

Isaiah Crowell and Terrance West shared the bulk of the carries in the second half of their rookie seasons. A heavy reliance on the run game should mean plenty of carries for both. Crowell is the more explosive runner, while West does most of his work between the tackles. Third-round pick Duke Johnson excels as a receiver out of the backfield, which is sorely needed after Crowell and West combined for 20 catches last season.

Wide receiver

Bowe and Hartline were signed to replace Gordon, but Cleveland still has a severe playmaking void at the position. Bowe went without a touchdown in 2014, and Hartline scored just two. Andrew Hawkins finished last year as the team's leading receiver with just 63 catches, 16 more than departed Miles Austin. Hawkins can shift to his more natural role in the slot, while Taylor Gabriel and Travis Benjamin are the team's best deep threats.

Tight end

Jordan Cameron's departure left an already thin spot in further disarray. Rob Housler was largely overlooked in the Arizona Cardinals offense but has the athleticism to make his mark on the passing game. Gary Barnidge and Jim Dray return.

Offensive line

Pettine has the right personnel up front for a ground-and-pound scheme. Left tackle Joe Thomas and center Alex Mack rank among the best in the league at their positions. Joel Bitonio was overshadowed by the Dallas Cowboys' Zack Martin but warranted Pro Bowl consideration as a rookie. First-round pick Cameron Erving could push Mitchell Schwartz at right tackle or even play inside.

Defensive line

Injuries and a lack of depth along the front kept Cleveland's defense on the field far too long in 2014. Top pick Danny Shelton has the size (6-2, 339 pounds), strength and skill set to be the Week 1 starter at nose tackle and set the tone for the 3-4 scheme. Phil Taylor could play a significant role if he has fully recovered from a knee injury.

Linebacker

The Browns posted 31 sacks last season, finishing 27th in the league. But Paul Kruger was a stable presence off the edge with 11 sacks. Barkevious Mingo played with a shoulder injury through much of 2014, but he'll have to show marked improvement from his first two years in the league. Second-round pick Nate Orchard should earn early playing time as a situational pass rusher. On the inside, Karlos Dansby brings accountability and leadership. Craig Robertson will have to hold off Christian Kirksey to start next to Dansby.

Secondary

The Browns demand a lot out of Joe Haden in their press-man scheme, but the two-time Pro Bowl corner has shown he's up to the task. Williams slides into the other starting cornerback position, which was a vulnerable spot for Cleveland last season. Justin Gilbert, who was picked in 2014's first round before Manziel, is short on goodwill after a turbulent rookie season in which he was criticized by his own teammates. Free safety Tashaun Gipson recorded six interceptions in 11 games last season. Donte Whitner reprises his role at strong safety.

Special teams

The return game will be a focal point for an offense in need of assistance. Benjamin holds the early edge to be the primary weapon, but Johnson could push for action. Garrett Hartley's release leaves the kicking to Travis Coons and Carey Spear, neither of whom has in-game experience. Three-time all-pro Andy Lee was acquired from the San Francisco 49ers to handle the punting.

Coaching

Pettine plans to be more involved with the offense this season. DeFilippo, 37, is a first-time offensive coordinator but was McCown's position coach with the Oakland Raiders in 2007. He has revealed little about the shape of the offense beyond the zone blocking scheme that will remain. Jim O'Neil returns to run the defense. New quarterbacks coach Kevin O'Connell, 30, previously worked with Manziel and could help him.

***

Follow Michael Middlehurst-Schwartz on Twitter @mikemschwartz

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl...mnfl-topstories

I'm sorry, but this 1960's offense that it looks like we will be running doesn't work in 2015.

doesnt give you much confidence when every one keeps saying we are going to minimize the impact of the QB play this year does it?

Sometimes I wonder if they wouldn't mind having another bad season so we could get a decent () QB next draft?

well not one QB in the afc north was a top ten pick. not one was the first QB off the board for that matter.

You know, I try to run through every imaginable scenario in terms of what our FO might be thinking. However, I didn't really see a logical direction to go in attaining another QB. Now had they simply bypassed obvious upgrades without reasonable attempts to look into acquiring them, I could see that as a possibility. But I truly believe that Pettine wants to win.

I'm not so sure those above him have the where with all to acquire the people necessary to make that happen but I don't believe it's a lack of effort.

How can you say that?

I read peen's prediction. He states that we'll win 11 games and hold home field advantage deep into the playoffs.

32 agrees w/him.

YTown says he sees us winning 9 games.

I didn't debate those opinions last night. It's their opinion. I let it go.

Then, I come back here today and read tab's comments, your post, Bard's insults, etc and I see it's the same old crap as it always is....

....which is let's turn this against posters who don't agree w/us and not talk football.

What do negative posters have to do w/how many freaking games the Browns will win? I am so sick of the attacks on differing opinions.

We stop talking football and end up making dumb ass posts like the one I am making now. Why? Because too many of you guys just can't handle an opposing opinion and have to resort to making it a personality defect if you don't jump on board and go w/the crowd of how great we'll be...........Pffftttttttttttttt.....Sickening.

I get real tired of reading where my opinion has no merit and I only like to tear things down or am negative or my opinion is incredulous. We've danced this dance too many times and it is always the same.

I've never asked for an apology after the facts come in, but goodness, can y'all stop w/that my opinions aren't even valid? Please?

I'm surprised people think many of us that don't see things as all sunshine and roses "enjoy that". Are there a very select few that seem that way? Possibly.

I for one don't think we'll even play .500 ball and I'm certainly not happy about it! I don't "enjoy" the fact that our QB situation is so poor that our HC had to publicly state that "We are going to minimize the QB position".

I'm not happy and do not "enjoy" the fact that this FO overlooked every possible warning sign that the QB they were drafting last year was a party boy. That he felt the need to go to rehab. None of those things are enjoyable!

I'm not happy that Skrine was let go for a CB who gave up 10td's last year and who opposing QB's had a QBR of around 105 against.

I could go on, but I think the sentiment here is obvious. I don't "enjoy" having a mediocre team at best to root for. It's been that way for decades. I guess I could toss insults at people who seem to accept such things and wish to ignore them, but I'm not going to go there.

I don't enjoy it either. And when I read Bard's comment about some people just enjoying tearing things down, it struck a nerve.

And I respect those types of responses from many posters on here, but ddub's post really threw me for a loop.

Heck, it's more like this "we gotta be positive" attitude that is the most prevalent and if you don't agree w/us, we "will tear you down."

I didn't rip peen, 32, and YTown for their optimistic predictions and neither did you or Rish. Yet, somehow we all get lumped into this group of simply being negative w/out just cause. It's BS!

No, it was the feeling sad junk.

I don't get on you guys for not agreeing w/me. You have your opinions. Voice them. But please leave this grouping and labeling of posters out of the debate. That isn't football talk. I interpret as a lame attempt to discredit the opinions of those you guys don't agree with.

Keep it to football and leave the positive/negative crap out of it.

Logically it was the best they could do....

That's OK, I know yu didn't argue it, but I will explain why I feel we will win 9 games next year.

I look at the way we won games last year. We ran the ball effectively in many of those wins, and got competent QB play. The defense had to come along, and did as the year progressed. This is despite lacking certain resources.


The 1st, and most important thin we lacked was depth and specific ability. This was apparent at a few important positions.

The OL lacked depth. The front office did a great job of finding Bitonio, but man, when Mack went down, the entire team seemed to collapse.The depth appears to be improved with the drafting of Erving, and the return to healthy by
Bowie. Depth appears to be greatly improved, plus other depth players will have a full off-season in the system. We changed a great number of OL players last year after training camp was over. That should not happen this year. We also should be able to use a backup OL as a heavy package lead blocker if we choose.

RB: We added Tate, West, and Crowell. We added talent there, but we lacked a real weapon in the passing game from the backfield. West was a better blocker than I though he would be, but a year in the program by both him and Crowell will definitely benefit them. Adding Duke should be huge. He can run the ball, and he can catch out of the backfield very naturally. I think that RB will go from disaster area 2 years ago, to capable a year ago, to special this year.

FB: Stupid, maybe .... but everything I rea dabout Malcomn Johnson has been excellent. I was shocked that we took a kid who the talking heads said would likely be a practice squad player at best, but he looks like a guy who many teams might not draft, because he has to be a specific fit. He looks like what Flip wants at FB ..... a player who can block, run, and catch, either out of the backfield, or split out as a receiver. This is definitely something we lacked last year. I think that Johnson has a real chance of being very useful.

If the OL and FB positions are strong, then the TE can be used more as a receiving spot. The 2 blocking TE can catch and run well enough that they have to be defended, but I look forward to seeing Housler on the field. I see a lot of the same talents that Cameron brought to the field. We should be able to open up the way we use the TE because of enhancements elsewhere.

QB and WR remain a question mark for me, but I really love Gabriel's talent, and I think that he is going to become a superstar in time. However, I do have some concerns there. I do think that we may be able to use the WR corps as we did last year, with players fitting into specific roles. We'll have to see though.

Onto defense, and man did we work on the DL. We added, and added, and added ....... bringing in Starks, and then Shelton and Cooper in the draft. I think that the addition of Shelton will be huge in stopping the run. Starks will also help here. Shelton has the ability to also collapse the pocket , so he should be useful against the pass as well. I so look forward to seeing Cooper on the field. I keep hearing about how quick his 1st step is. I can't wait to see him on the field in somewhat real conditions. I think that the DL will be a hugely improved unit.

We also added Orchard at OLB, and he has a great pass rushing pedigree. The thought of seeing him and Kruger rushing from the outside, along with Cooper makes me happy.

At CB, I see us developing great depth. We lost Skrine, but we added Williams. To me this is a fill with similar talent if not an improvement. If we get anything out of Gilbert, this will become a lockdown unit filled with exceptional talent at all spots. I am excited by what we are developing in the defensive backfield.

On defense, I expect improvement over last year. I think that we have better fits at many spots, and we have improved the talent level as well. Guys who made this team last year will not make this year's team. Those who return will know their jobs inside out. We should not see blown assignments like we did last year at times.

So, my reasons for hope are:

OL, RB, FB, and Scheme on offense, and DL, pass rushers, overall depth at DB, and a 2nd year in the scheme.

I am excited to see how we will look this year. I love the scheme we will play this year. I love Pettine's approach. We are going to follow the same type of approach that the Seahawks and Niners have. We will build up the team around the QB spot, and create a team that can support a QB, rather than being a team that falls apart without a great QB.

Am I sold on any of our QBs? Not at all. We will de-emphasize the QB spot, but that does not mean we will ignore it. The QB will still have to make throws. Is McCown the right guy? Man, I wish I could say with certainty, "Yes". However, I have no idea how he will fit here. It seems as though we should run an offense that he can run. He will not be the spine of the offense. Everything will not rest on him. I hope that he has enough to do as Hoyer did last year. This is my biggest concern. However, I think that we will be a lot like the Bills last year .... a very good team held back somewhat by the QB position. I think that this adds up to a team that can win 9 games, based on what I expect to be defensive dominance and a strong run game, and short passing game.

This is why I expect 9 wins. (or more)

Nice read.

How can you say that?

I read peen's prediction. He states that we'll win 11 games and hold home field advantage deep into the playoffs.

32 agrees w/him.

YTown says he sees us winning 9 games.

I didn't debate those opinions last night. It's their opinion. I let it go.

Then, I come back here today and read tab's comments, your post, Bard's insults, etc and I see it's the same old crap as it always is....

....which is let's turn this against posters who don't agree w/us and not talk football.

My post had nothing, nothing to do with putting anyone down who does not "agree with us". Hell, in that context I don't even know who "us" is.

I was directing my comment toward the negative comments that are made without thought, logic or explanation. At the non-thinking, off-the-cuff, first thing that comes to mind which is "We suck".


What do negative posters have to do w/how many freaking games the Browns will win? I am so sick of the attacks on differing opinions.

My statement was not an attack on anyone's opinion other than the non-thinking "We Suck" opinion. I can't think of anyone who has a more negative opinion than BTTB. Rarely do I read anything positive in his posts, but he explains his opinions with his logic in how he arrived at it, the thinking behind it and certain facts that are hard to dispute in backing up what he says. I read them all. Every word.

I don't discount anyone's negative opinion simply on the grounds that it is negative. It can't be all one way or the other. Those who express the less than positive take balance the discussion enabling us to see both sides which helps us learn and aids in adjusting our own thoughts lest we get in a rut of thinking everything is cotton candy.


We stop talking football and end up making dumb ass posts like the one I am making now. Why?

Sometimes it's because you feel posts like the one you are responding to is an attack on your opinions, which it's not.


Because too many of you guys just can't handle an opposing opinion and have to resort to making it a personality defect if you don't jump on board and go w/the crowd of how great we'll be...........Pffftttttttttttttt.....Sickening.

So now I'm included in the group who is so afraid to hear a negative opinion that I lash-out making personal attacks in an attempt to reverse the tables thereby intimidating someone to jump ship. Good luck intimidating you.


I get real tired of reading where my opinion has no merit and I only like to tear things down or am negative or my opinion is incredulous. We've danced this dance too many times and it is always the same.

How could anything I said in my previous post possibly have something to do with you and your opinions. You are pretty well balanced. That doesn't mean that for every negative issue you balance it with a positive one. But you call positive when you see positive and negative when you see negative.

Of course, sometimes what you see as a negative I see as a positive or vice versa. But that's what discussion is all about. We can all learn from each other if learning is what we really want. If what we really want is to be right, well then, that's another character.

I've never asked for an apology after the facts come in, but goodness, can y'all stop w/that my opinions aren't even valid? Please?

Again, I really don't see how you read my post as aiming toward you or your opinions. Or somehow representing some group with that as a goal. I do know that there are some, way too many actually, who do that. I've backed you up on occasion. You know that. But once the mob mentality sets in there's not much that can be done.

No, my post was addressing the mindless who comment, "We Suck", (not necessarily those two words exclusively), as reflex action, without thinking. First thing that comes to mind, bagging on the team or a player or a coach or the FO. No attempt to understand the situation or to add something to the discussion, just to blurt out something stupid because it's too hard to think.


One perfect example, to me, is the "Johnny Rehab" moniker. Someone makes that up, or hears it, thinks it's funny, repeats it and then that becomes their entire opinion on the subject. (Manziel, hur hur Johnny Rehab hur hur). It's not Johnny exclusively, it's any number of subjects and it's all over the messge board.

Go back and read my post you are responding to. Does any of that really seem to be aimed at you or even anyone else who has a negative opinion on an issue with the team? It's not addressing opinions. It's addressing non-thinking stupidity.

I can't really see anything about your assessment that I'd disagree with.

TE's: I'm not sure what all the hate is about. Dray and Barnidge have proven they are worth a roster spot. I'm not nearly as bent about Cameron leaving because a) he barely saw the field and b) when he did, he often fell flat on his face after catching the ball. For me, I don't need Housler to be the second coming of Jimmy Graham. So long as our TE's can make clutch catches, and block for our run game, I'll consider it a successful bunch.

QB: I think the Pet Farm have taken a realistic assessment to our position this year. I was in the camp that believed Hoyer and the Browns had more to benefit mutually by him sticking around one more year. They didn't. I'm not as harsh with my assessment of the FO, but I will say that with the texts about the QB, Farmer soiled the professional relationship the FO had with Hoyer. Considering he's only drafted 1 QB, I'll withhold my assessment of his abilities to assess a QB prospect, but I will place most of the blame of Hoyer leaving on him (Farm).

So we do what we can do now to win. In the absence of a viable QB option, they focused on building and improving the rest of the roster. I don't see how anyone can see anything wrong with this approach? When we do get 'the Guy', wouldn't we want to put the best possible roster around him? And for those concerned about 'minimizing the QB position'.... wouldn't we be trying to do the same thing if they went all in on Manziel, or even if we had drafted Winston or Mariota?? Even if we had retained Hoyer, I don't think that they would be trying to put the entire offense on his shoulders.

Be concerned about the talent level we have behind center, I don't think anyone actually ISN'T. But personally I wouldn't get bent about minimizing the QB position this season because short of having signed a guy like Rivers, its what we would be doing for just about anyone we put back there this year.

WRs: Eh, I think its a wash for us this year. Bowe and maybe Hartline might be on their Back 9, but so was Austin last year. I don't recall anyone having any issues with Austin after he became our go to 3rd down guy. Yeah it'd be great to have a WR who could duplicate Gordon's season from a couple years ago, but it is what it is. Its interesting though that those who don't think so highly of our WR group also mention how poor QB play has missed a lot of the same guys wide open. If our QB hits on those more, does the WR group really suck as much as all that? Me thinks not.

You keep pushing this idea, and it amazes me how more Dawgs just don't see the same thing, but this really is probably the strongest roster we've had in quite some time, if not ever since the return isn't it? Certainly we might could use some more dominant players at some positions (I'll agree with BTTB there), but looking back at last season, our biggest problem aside from Hoyer's end of season decline, was lack of quality depth. I just don't believe we are as talent starved as some here think we are. Looking forward, we've added some pretty good prospects. Either some proven vets (even if what the have left in the tank is questioned)... or in the draft with guys that there were 2 consistent traits amongst them regardless of position 1) that "Play like Brown" attitude, the blue collar, professional, appreciative of the opportunity mindset and 2) they were productive in college. These guys may never become ProBowlers, but I think at minimum these are the types of guys that you can build a strong foundation off of.

And for me, that is where we are at: we have a very strong foundation. I think a 7-9 to 9-7 season will support that belief.

And for those who think I'm basing this off of Unicorns and Rainbow Butterflies, no, I'm not ignoring last season. People who predicted 4-12, 5-11 crap on our 7-9 record because we played the NFC South. Well, we didn't sweep them, but we also played 6 games in the toughest division that sent 3 teams to the playoffs. We had a couple of stinkers, but we also played some of our best and toughest football against the same teams. There's just so many good things that we did last season that we will be able to build off of and I think we will because so far it doesn't look like we are going to experience any large scale roster turnover (for once!)

I agree with you that we are not talent starved and this is probably one of the best rosters we have put together since the return. I think the general issue is that, without a solid QB, that talent may essentially go to waste. This is a QB driven league and the yesteryears of Dilfer, Johnson, Gannon etc. taking their team deep into the playoffs are gone. Not too mention the QBs in general during that stretch is nothing compared to today, IMO.

Hoyer/McCown is a wash to me. Wouldn't be all that optimistic with either starting Week 1, unfortunately. Will this team win games, yes. I think they can get back to seven wins. Other things may have to fall their way, or have some breakout years to go beyond that. Let's hope so.

Agreed, Memphis. And yes, we are counting on that...it's way overdue!

How did the other teams in the division improve or get worse?

You should do a similar breakdown for them as well.