DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... And so it begins

Cool cake.

these were common laws in civilizations that predate the bible.

stop making stuff up. seriously.

I am a Christian and I have gay friends,,, some who attend church regularly and display more Christian attributes then many Straight attendees.

I would be upset with a baker that refused service to my friends for any reason... here as I understand it the questioned lifestyle runs contrary to the bakers Christian tenements what of those other tenements of forgiveness, fair play, love they neighbor forbearance, and love?

I would ask that baker how deep does your belief go, will you refuse service to an adulterer, a thief, a Muslim , a Jew a druid, an Atheists, an Agnostic, a drug abuser, a spouse / child abuser... all these run contrary to your Christian belief's, so where does tis slippery slope end.

And to run the contrary... If I can decide who to sell based on my religious beliefs can someone refuse to service me based on my religious beliefs?

on a humor side... my son and I went to a Rangers game last night and they like all sporting event s do the "Kiss Cam" we were wondering how long until they show a shot with a girl and a guy and the guy turns and kisses the guy to his right instead of the girl to his left.

You're on your own on this one, big guy. (You just knew we couldn't pass on this one).

I am speechless.....

[quote]And to run the contrary... If I can decide who to sell based on my religious beliefs can someone refuse to service me based on my religious beliefs?/quote]

I thought that was what 'freedom' was about.

I found a birthday cake

One person's freedom can sometimes be another person's oppression.

One of the biggest concerns with the so called religious freedom idea is Sharia Law.

If you've ever talked about slippery slope then it's easy to see Sharia would already be established with no need for a slope.

I imagine Christian bakers will have to prepare a catalogue of available cake models and not offer custom cakes to avoid having to due business that violates their freedom of religion.

I view that as religious persecution when the State is mandating that you violate your religious beliefs to run a business because then the Christian business owner is not being given a fair opportunity to do business.

Or perhaps the baker could just label the truck with:

"If you see our truck providing wedding services at a homosexual wedding it is against our will and we are being treated as slaves to the state because we are not allowed to refuse orders that violate our religious beliefs. Perverts have rights but Christians don't."

I would love to see that =) I would definately order from those people =)

If you can eat it without puking more power to you. To me its just gross and nasty.

I'm guessing you probably didn't get an invitation to the wedding either.

It's amazing when people who are doing their best to be allowed to discriminate claim persecution.

Amazing

Well you better bring that up to intellectual property right agreements because I've probably signed a dozen in the last 10 years that state if I break them there will be consequences (loss of contract/job/etc). It may not have state repercussions but the general rule of thumb in contract law is both sides are giving up something in return for something.



And the gay baker case in Oregon was not also civil? They were fined; not sent to jail.



It's religion being used to justify discrimination. Your religious freedoms stopped being a concern when you signed a contract with the state saying you would abide by the discrimination laws of the state, regardless of your religion. Render under Caesar what is Caesars, right?

People tried to apply this logic before during the civil rights movement of the 1960s. Do you believe it's okay for a business to not serve black people if it's against their religion? the FLDS doctrine teaches that "the black race is the people through which the devil has always been able to bring evil unto the earth."



Not if the compelled person signed an agreement beforehand stating they would perform the service without discriminating on the basis of race or sexual orientation etc. By this logic you *MUST AGREE* that it would be ok for FLDS Mormons to not bake a cake for a mixed race couple. They believe that mixing the "seed" is grounds for death under God. But we say no, if you run a business you are bound by the laws governing business operation.



Same excuses were used to deny African Americans property rights, services in restaurants, purchasing in various stores, etc. Is this really the logic you want to go with??

Have you ever formed an LLC? part of the filing is accepting that you are going to follow the laws as set forth by the state and federal government. You are free to be a bigot but the moment you sign that contract you have bound yourself to the penalties there-in if you violate them.

Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.

Why was America populated so quickly? Because Christians wanted a safe place to be Christian. Our government keeps ignoring the consent of the people the people will keep getting more and more ready to separate and secede. There are several million Americans already creating petitions to do that. I hope the government wakes up because the USA is looking a lot less united than it has since the civil war tore us apart. I mean there are some very severe divides being set up.

The reason you lets each state run things in its own way on domestic issues is because some liberal New Yorker has no business telling a small town rancher in Montana how to live his life and vice versa.

I would never attend a gay wedding since I view it as a sinful atrocity and a mockery of marriage and what it is meant to be.

I am curious how long before we hear of a wedding where one party thought that they were marrying a person of the opposite gender, only to find out on their wedding night that they they actually married a person of their own gender?

Hey,it's all legal now,right?

That already happens in places like vegas.

So, you're going to make the south rise again? Good luck, buddy.



Indigenous groups from Russia/Asia crossed over the land bridge, most likely the Bering Strait, and made their way down. Some settled in modern day Alaska, other went to Canada, many ended up in the modern day contiguous 48 states, and even some went as far as Greenland! I teach a group of these individuals! They rock. I'm thankful for the wonderful cultural experience I participate in.



Oh, you mean when the pilgrims escaped a theocratic anglican church that wanted more control in the government. Definitely no parallels to what you, YTown, and a few others want our country to turn into. No irony there, at all.



Sigh...

And the south will rise again, right?

Sorry, but those behind the times will either stay kicking and screaming or be left behind. For the times they are a changin', Razor.



Let's get back to the articles of confederation. Those worked so well!

JC

I don't understand why Christians can't overcharge. I feel like that's the ultimate cop out, or compromise in this situation.

That, and we also murdered the indigenous population of a land bordered by a protective ocean on either side. But let's do your thing, and pretend it was all righteous sunshine and rainbows until we let the gays kiss.

They should have known before the wedding whether their "partner" was a transgender or not. Just sayin'...

Almost spit up a bit of coffee laughing out loud at this.

Would it be so hard for a small family bakery to say "Sorry, we're booked for the next month." and then helpfully suggest a baker that might accommodate the couple? Aren't businesses allowed to be too busy to take on a job? For example, I had back surgery this spring and now face double hip replacement in the next month. I've been unable to clean my gutters this year, and now have a maple orchard growing in my gutters. We cannot find someone to come out and clean our gutters, because at this time of year they are contracting new gutter and roof installs. They are too busy to take on my paltry job. If my wife and I were a gay couple, could we claim discrimination? I don't know for sure, but I doubt it.

The other part of this that is curious - IMO - is why would you want someone cooking something for you to eat who does not want to cook for you? If it was me, I'd be worried about there being loogies in the cake mix. We all know what happens when you send food back to the cook in certain restaurants, right?

Why all the effort to be allowed to practice discrimination at the expense of gays and your business?

If you are being authentic about your principles, which I have yet to read anyone here claiming a right to be bigots are willing to do, then refuse service to ALL sodomizers, adulterers, divorced, those who have illegally gained money at the expense of others and to be honest you should refuse service to those guilty of domestic violence.

Either stick to your principles or stop pretending that legally being allowed to be a bigot isn't your your actual agenda.

If your going to claim bigotry based on religion then perhaps go back and pray some more because most people part of any religion or non-religion recognize what "religious freedom" is all about.

Is pure and simple. You want to be a bigot without penalty.

Are you speaking to me personally? Because if I owned a wedding service business, I would not turn anyone away. I only ask if a contractor is allowed to be too busy to take on another contract, and also why, if you are looking for someone to do something as intimate and personal as cook food for you, you would even consider someone who didn't want the job.

LOL, is there anything in which Razor isn't fundamentally wrong?

How is that affirming a "lifestyle?" It's a business transaction. If you want to run a business that is open to the public, then you have to serve everyone. If you want to run a business that only serves people that you agree with, then start a club.

The court's early decision clearly indicated that you have the right to your religious beliefs and practices, but that also comes with reservations regarding the practice of your beliefs and imposing those beliefs and practices on others. Otherwise, you are stating that you are OK with people implementing Sharia Law, human sacrifice, etc.

When you say "lifestyle", are you implying that homosexuality is a choice?

Do you and Rock not see that Sharia law and our constitutional right to freedom of religion are complete polar opposites?

That's a bingo. The violation of law occurs when the baker says they're turning down service specifically because the patron is homosexual. They're free and clear to say that they're too busy and suggest another avenue.

You absolutely must serve everyone. You do not have to participate in supporting something you are religiously opposed-to. Big difference.

Some people keep speaking of them as if they are the same thing...they are not.

That is a ridiculous "solution". I am guessing that a person religiously opposed to gay marriage might have a little problem with telling a lie as well.

Not really. These folks are out looking for a lawsuit. Simply lying isn't going to fly. They will watch the business like a hawk and try to trap them, because that's what gays are doing.

Could you cite a case where this has happened? Thus far, it seems every instance I've read, the vendors have been pretty vocal in admitting their violation of law.

That's certainly possible, but unlikely. The practice of Christian virtues in America tends to be highly arbitrary.

The very definition of religious freedom as guaranteed by the 1st Amendment.

I honestly have no problem with that at all. The problem is proving it or even knowing it. Also, not all people in divorce are sinners. If your spouse cheats on you then the Bible allows it but then again back when the Bible was written that spouse would be dead soon anyways. Nothing against a widow getting remarried =)

Like I mentioned I think the legal loophole is to maybe make a sign that says, "We reserve the right to not make cakes with materials or language we find to be offensive. Please choose from our catalog."

For instance, they should have no problems making the cake if the things they find offensive are not on it. I wouldn't refuse to make the cake. I'd just refuse to make it the way they want it. So long as, they are willing to order a product I normally make then I think it's wrong to refuse. If they want double male or female toppers or the names of two men or two women then I just refuse to customize it that way.

The problem would of course be in delivering the cake or perhaps the baker could just label the truck with:

"If you see our truck providing wedding services at a homosexual wedding it is against our will and we are being treated as slaves to the state because we are not allowed to refuse orders that violate our religious beliefs. Perverts have rights but Christians don't."

In the end though it's the regular customers that will suffer as the cake makers are forced to become more and more generic to avoid lawsuits. Yay, gay marriages don't effect anyone right?

Honestly though I think a business should be able to refuse service anytime it wants. I have worked at several where we have had customers escorted off the premises. I am not saying I would agree with all the reasons that would cause that to happen but I thought this was a free country? Then again some of you still think we have a democracy ...

That would be fantastic, and well within their rights. And "Perverts have rights but Christians don't" is just as funny the second time around.



This sounds good in theory, but we have a long history of not being able to handle this as a society. We are the land of "whites only" and "Irish need not apply". We didn't develop civil rights laws to weed out a few bad apples. They came to be because discrimination has proven to run rampant if we allow it.