DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Southern Pride (Confederate Flag)

And now, everybody heads south to retire.

How many people do you hear of heading north to retire?

With global warming we'll see how long that lasts.

Didn't Bloomberg ban shuffleboard?

I would just like to reiterate the point that Erik made.

One of the coolest things about my job is the History behind the music we play. In some cases, the ink is barely dry. In other cases (J.S.Bach, for instance), the music is over 300 years old. I've had to understand the historical role that music played in the broader 'Story Of Man' to be able to competently do my job. 'Playing notes' simply won't do it. We must KNOW HISTORY, lest we be exposed as 'poseurs' in a world that reveres the past.

The cello I play has a history, as well. It's almost 100 years old, was constructed by hand by an Italian maker whose father was still alive during the Civil War. The sound it produces cannot be replicated on modern instruments, no matter how advanced the technology, or how well-built they are.

It is because of this educational background that I have a deep and abiding appreciation for historical artifacts. One of my favorite local performance venues is First Congregational Church, which features no fewer than 10 full-sized stained glass panels conceived and created by Louis Comfort Tiffany (yes... THAT Tiffany). The word "breathtaking" is a paltry cliché, when these >20-ft. works of High Art are illuminated by full sun on a bright Sunday morning (...when Louis Tiffany was commissioned to begin a new work by a skeptical client, he'd charter a flight from NYC to My Town... and take them directly to 1st Cong, to 'seal the deal'...).

So... subjects of 'tradition' and 'history' are not lost upon me at all. I understand them in ways that many of my fellow citizens do not grasp... because my job, in essence, relies upon the concept of historical preservation- be it a pleasant slice of history or not.

3 years ago, I was gob-smacked by some history, just by playing through the season's concerts. In late March, we played an Opera Gala (read: poshy fundraiser concert) that featured the music of German composer Richard Wagner... a well-known 'Teutonic Supremacist' and anti-Semite. Just one week later, I performed in a chamber music concert, a work by Olivier Messaien: 'Quatour Pour Le Fin De Temps' (Quartet For The End Of Time)... written and performed by prisoners of Stalag 8-A during WWII.


Had it not been for my training in musicology and performance practice, I might have been compelled to allow my own 21st century sensibilities to keep me from playing the Wagner. After all, Adolph Hitler himself was perhaps Wagner's biggest fan... and Hitler was no friend to America, by any stretch.

__________________________

The stained glass displays at the National Cathedral are historical artifacts that should not be tampered with in any way. They represent (regardless of thematic material) A MOMENT IN TIME in our country's historical narrative... and a such, should be preserved for all to see. I trust our 'evolved sensibilities' to frame the displayed imagery in the proper historical context. A stained-glass window with a depiction of the Confederate battle flag does not inflame or intimidate me at all.... any more than the music of Richard Wagner makes me want to burn a Nazi flag.

________________________


On the subject of flags: IMHO, there should be only two standards flown above U.S. State Capitols:

1. The banner of the state being represented, flown directly beneath...
2. ...The National Standard.

...and nothing else.

Given the logistics of the S.C. Confederate battle flag, I'll say this: It's not flying ABOVE the state capitol, so I couldn't care less. I'm not a resident of that state, so I'm content to let them display what they want... so long as it's hashed out in public debate among the citizens of that state. If S.C. holds a referendum vote regarding its display, I'd have no problem with whatever they decided for themselves. If the same situation was being played out in Columbus, OH, you can bet that I'd make my personal views be heard.


On a personal note: SC screwed their own pooch (in the court of public opinion) and brought increased national attention upon themselves, when they saw fit to lower their own state banner AND the National Standard to half-mast... while allowing the Confederate battle flag to fly at full mast.

That made for some truly 'bad optics'... and is directly responsible for the national s#!tstorm the entire state now finds itself in. Why did they NOT lower all three flags? Why did they only lower 2 of 3? Had they lowered all three, this would never have become the issue it is now. It truly did send a message (whether intentional or unintentional) that is now on their daily dinner plate. By Half-assing (or 2/3rd's-assing) their displays, they brought all this down upon themselves. SOMEBODY should have been on top of this.

Oh, well... deal with the crapfest you've created for yourselves. Good luck, going forward, South Carolina.



On the young woman who scaled the flagpole, and 'emancipated' the Confederate flag from its lofty perch: Go Girl!

1st Amendment Freedom of Expression in action. Deal with it (for better or worse), America. This is what Your Founding Fathers allowed for us all. She didn't burn the flag. She didn't throw it upon the ground and stomp on it. She didn't relive herself upon it in a public display of contempt and debauchery. She made a strong 'symbolic gesture of expression' that immediately dealt with a SYMBOL that means many different things to many different people.

America In Action... expressed by an American... taking action.


It don't get more "USA! USA!" than that.


just another American's .02 in this open discussion,
Clemmy.

Given DC's recent points about the things that have happened under and in the name of the Stars and Stripes, how would you justify the double standard? Most of the supporters of continuing to fly the Confederate Flag are trying to move the history forward. Why does one get a pass and the other not?

I keep telling my wife we need to find some land in NC or SC, because I'm not sure I want to live here when I retire. Too damn hot, and it's growing fast, it's going to be like Lauderdale/Miami by then.

Don't know if this ever got posted. Didn't feel like looking though 10 pages...

http://www.politicususa.com/2015/07/03/c...n-heritage.html
"The white supremacist who designed the Confederacy’s flag(s), one William T. Thompson, gave the definitive reason why every Republican, KKK member, and so-called Southern heritage advocate still supports flying that symbol of treason and racism. Thompson was proud to admit that “As a people we are fighting to maintain the heavenly ordained supremacy of the white man over the inferior or colored race; a white flag would thus be emblematical of our cause. Such a flag would be a suitable emblem of our young confederacy, and sustained by the brave hearts and strong arms of the south, it would soon take rank among the proudest ensigns of the nations, and be hailed by the civilized world as THE WHITE MAN’S FLAG.”"

Yeah, I mentioned it but it was convieniently glossed over lol.

Look up William T. Thompson on Wikipedia. Scroll down to the "quote" you mentioned in your post. Do you see the 4 or 5 citations listed throughout that "quote?" That means that it is actually 4 or 5 different quotes mashed - up to make a quote. This is often called "making-up-your-own-quote-to-serve-your-own-purpose." I could do the same thing with Obama quotes and make him say some pretty radical things too.

I'm not saying the guy wasn't racist, but just because one guy who might have helped design the flag was racist, doesn't mean the flag is racist.

Also, the quote doesn't even make sense. He says a white flag...is the flag in question white?

Point: research your own stuff, don't copy and paste unsubstantiated claims from a "political" website.

Haha, after further review, this guy didn't even design the flag in question. Look up the 2nd National Flag of the Confederacy, the one with the big white field on it. That is the racist flag. Nice research guys!

No it didn't. Multiple citations means it's from multiple sources. The quote is from "Our Flag" that was written by a historian and presented to the DAR.

In his time, the Stars and Bars was in the corner of a white flag.

The flag was created by racists and used by racists. It's p. Racist.

Did he come up with the stars and bars, yes or no?

Southern confederate region has a flag? Hmm!, Wonder why we don't get one for the Midwest. Good for them, Brittany has a regional flag. We need one for around here.

No. It was created by a man who succeeded from the US because he wanted to enslave black people. But he's probably not racist...

All I was asking is that you get your facts straight when you post articles like that to support your arguments. You didn't do your research, and I called you out on it. No need to get your panties in a bunch, just do better next time.

If you post articles with made up facts from a political website, don't get mad when people "gloss over" them.

1) I didn't post it.
2) none of it is made up.
3) Stop.

I posted it. Frankly you are correct. I didn't read the entire article, nor did I do a bunch of research on it. I saw it online and shared it here to spark conversation.
Personally I do feel the flag has racial overtones. I don't feel like it should be hanging over government buildings. Outside of that I think the over reaction, such as pulling The Dukes of Hazard reruns off tv, is extremism. Which I'm not a big fan of. That said if someone wants a confederate flag on the back of their pick up truck that's fine. It tells me a fair amount about the person behind the wheel. To each their own. I'll steer clear.

To most southerners, that flag represents the struggle to come back and restore their homes, lives, families, and cities after the War of Northern Aggression (what they call it in the deep south). Others have used it as a symbol of the klan or other oppression. Others see it has their heritage as their great-great-grandfather fought in the war, or their mother was part of the war effort. To assign this flag the meaning of most convenience is wrong for governmental bodies to do. It's also wrong for businesses to do, especially if they sell Nazi or Soviet memorabilia. Che Guevera and Fidel Castro were butchers of their own people, and some of these same people hold them in high regard, along with Mao Zedong. Hell, Mao even gets his own white house Christmas ornament, and he supposedly killed between 50-78,000,000.

I am sorry that I confused you with the poster who said they posted it earlier in the thread. For that, I am sorry.

However, it is made up and non-factual. It incorrectly attributes the rebel flag to the wrong person, then uses his statements aabout 2nd National Flag of the Confederacy to describe the rebel flag. That is made up.

Also, I'm not sure what I should "stop"? Pointing out inaccuracies in articles?

What I found interesting is the article singled out republicans to go along with the KKK but it was the republicans who were opposed to slavery. It was just trash journalism at it's finest.

I call it Libthingy Logic, Libthingy Facts!

The interesting part is often the same people who said Lincoln didn't actually care about ending slavery are the same who say it was republicans that ended slavery

Plus the fact that if ending slavery was the end of the problem that would be great, but a lot of our race problems today involve both parties and often republicans in general.

So yea you can say republicans ended slavery in the same way you can say republicans were white people and white people owned slaves.

I believe the phrase used was "opposed to slavery". Now why would you ignore what I actually said which is historically accurate and go on some ridiculous rant of your own invention? Why quote me? Just make your statement, there's no reason to twist what I said.

1854
Republican Party founded

In Ripon, Wisconsin, former members of the Whig Party meet to establish a new party to oppose the spread of slavery into the western territories. The Whig Party, which was formed in 1834 to oppose the “tyranny” of President Andrew Jackson, had shown itself incapable of coping with the national crisis over slavery.

With the successful introduction of the Kansas-Nebraska Bill of 1854, an act that dissolved the terms of the Missouri Compromise and allowed slave or free status to be decided in the territories by popular sovereignty, the Whigs disintegrated. By February 1854, anti-slavery Whigs had begun meeting in the upper midwestern states to discuss the formation of a new party. One such meeting, in Wisconsin on March 20, 1854, is generally remembered as the founding meeting of the Republican Party.

The Republicans rapidly gained supporters in the North, and in 1856 their first presidential candidate, John C. Fremont, won 11 of the 16 Northern states. By 1860, the majority of the Southern slave states were publicly threatening secession if the Republicans won the presidency. In November 1860, Republican Abraham Lincoln was elected president over a divided Democratic Party, and six weeks later South Carolina formally seceded from the Union. Within six more weeks, five other Southern states had followed South Carolina’s lead, and in April 1861 the Civil War began when Confederate shore batteries under General P.G.T. Beauregard opened fire on Fort Sumter in South Carolina’s Charleston Bay.

The Civil War firmly identified the Republican Party as the party of the victorious North, and after the war the Republican-dominated Congress forced a “Radical Reconstruction” policy on the South, which saw the passage of the 13th, 14th, and 15th amendments to the Constitution and the granting of equal rights to all Southern citizens. By 1876, the Republican Party had lost control of the South, but it continued to dominate the presidency until the election of Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1933.

History Channel

Oh Please, stop with the facts already! You will burst the ignorant bubble so many live under! They will only continue to repeat their lies until they accept them as fact.

It's cool. It happens.

Yes, the article sucked factually, but its thesis isn't wrong. The flag has always been racist. The man who created the flag said that Southerners who surrendered and renounced slavery as dishonourable. The flag is still created by a racist.

There has been many people who have said they don't find the flag racist, and it does not mean that to them, so your statement "The flag has always been racist." is not factual.

Well as long as they said it's not racist then it must not be racist!

there's people on FB who said and keep saying that the Jim Crow laws weren't racist.

so i guess it wasn't racist.

I don't care for the flag and think it represents a lot of racism and a difficult time in our history... But I don't really care if someone wants to fly it... Except at w government building.... IMO there should be two flags that are allowed to fly at a government building... The U.S. Flag and state flag... that should be it...

I grew up in the north but have been in Texas for the last 9 years... I'll never understand the pride some southerners have with that but if they want to fly it or paint it on their truck more power to them

I agree that old glory and state flag should be the only flags flying over a government building. yet I also believe that decision should be up to the state for state buildings and the fed for federal buildings.

Because both statements are true and not actually at odds with each other.

Lincoln cared about slavery, he believed it to be immoral, but his concern was keeping the Union in one piece. He would have left the institution of slavery in place if that's what it would have cost to keep the South from seceding. It's why Frederick Douglas was so frustrated with him.

Now when people say the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery, the counter argument is "Look! In all of the States declarations of secession they mention slavery!". And that's true, they do, likely put in there by the equivalent of today's special interest groups.

But what people fail to do is take it a step further back and ask WHY the Southern States felt the need to secede. Lincoln didn't sign an Executive Order nor did Congress pass a law abolishing slavery. They didn't just one day say to the slave states "You have to stop or else!". And when the Southern states said "No", war broke out.

Northern Industry was being under cut with cheap goods sold by the British. A tariff on British imports was put in place to make domestic goods more 'competitive'. This had a huge negative impact on the Southern states who couldn't afford these higher prices. This is where the argument about "States Rights" comes in. Because there were laws that benefited the North, but were so detrimental to the South, they felt they would be better served to secede.

So no, the Civil War didn't START because the North intended to free the slaves, but it did END that way.

Myths About The Civl War

well.....

I got #4 right! LOL

Not many people know that Lincoln truly thought about sending the slaves back to Africa.

I get annoyed with all this obfuscating talk about "IT WASN'T ABOUT SLAVERY!" when truly that was the right they rebelled against as a state due to the amount of capital slaves allowed them to make.

It was about the right to remain economically sound by using human beings as machines instead of giving them dignity. I'd hate to be known as a rebel who supports such an awful idea.

I wasn't even going to get into the technical side of an inanimate object, a piece of cloth, being racist. I thought one had to have cognitive thought to be racist.

I'm sure he was racist.. as was 90% of the people in the north. By todays standard, the average soldier from the south and from the north, was 20x more racist than the average American today. Do you honestly believe that 2.1 million soldiers fought on behalf of the north out of some notion of the fairness of civil equality and undying love for the Africans who were picking cotton in the south?

Southerners are still proud and at the same time they can be stinkers.
A case of 3x5 magnetic Battle Flag stickers stuck to Libbys cars is perty
danged funnay.

This issue has NOT left the building...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7d0_1436734842

Look at the big brains on Brad!
However, we all know that humans assign meanings to everything to communicate. It just so happens that the maker, propagator and flag bearers have all assigned it a racist meaning.

No. I know they didn't. But they did fight in a war for human equality. Which makes them not nearly as racist as a group of people who fought for slavery. What was the point of this befuddled math problem again?