DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Josh McCown...

Glennon is the Tampa Bay QB we should have made a deal for. He's young and showed potential last year. Of course the GM genius never pondered this idea. They signed a 60 year old QB, who makes Brandon Weeden proud with his flipper picks...
We are doomed with "Text" at the wheel...

I encourage fans to read the entire article.

After doing so myself, I am in even more agreement with Tab...what's shown above is cherry-picked and is one-half of one page out of seven pages of pure organizational disfunction - something we Browns fans are all to familiar with.

That pretty much says it all, and that would describe McCown's career....

One thing to remember about Tampa last year is that they lost their OC to illness prior to the season, and their QB coach, Marcus Arroyo,who had never coached in the NFL before, had to take over play calling duties as the de facto offensive coordinator. He was horribly overmatched in that capacity, and it showed.

McCown had his own problems last year, but the inability of the offensive staff to put together an effective game plan was also a huge problem.

I think that what YTown just said is the most overlooked and non discussed aspect about Josh and his season last year. Let's be real, it 'had' to have been a negative impact on him and the entire offensive unit.

Not saying that was the entire issue, but had to contribute to some fashion... IMO, a big contribution.

and this year we have a OC who never called a play before and a QB coach who never coached in the nfl.

Different situations though. I have my concerns with Flip, but least someone didn't get sick/ill which is why he took over play calling duties and to try to form some type of plan. I think the guy had to of been overwhelmed to the max degree. Flip was able to plan out and think and I'm sure he started that process prior to even interviewing here.

Edit and he had an entire offseason, I think the new Bucs coordinator took over during the end of preseason, right before the real bullets started to fly.

the plan was in place. failed to execute the plan..... maybe fail to adapt when the plan failed?

j/c..........kinda sorta



Cherry picked? Not quite. The original thread was in slides. Very hard to copy. That is why I said to click on the link to read the entire article.

There is no doubt that losing their OC hurt TB.

There is no doubt that the OL played terribly.

There is no doubt that the running game, despite having Doug Martin, struggled.

There is no doubt that McCown played terribly.

There is no doubt that we have 12 years of evidence to help us make a determination on McCown.

I am sorry that taking an alternative stance instead of just blindly following along w/the majority upsets so many people, but I can tell you from first hand experience, the conflicts of today's board are extremely mild compared to the battles that we had back in the day. People packed their guns when argued rather than whining about how everyone is not in agreement. Boo-freaking-hoo!

Browns training camp position breakdown: QBs

Posted 3 hours ago
Andrew Gribble

Josh McCown rides productive offseason into July

Yes, the start of Browns training camp is close enough for us to start a series like this.

Over the next two weeks, we’ll dive deep into each position group and analyze what we’ll be looking for when practice resumes July 30. In appropriate fashion, we’re starting at the top with a position that never creates a shortage of headlines.

THE QUARTERBACKS

The cast

Josh McCown

Johnny Manziel

Connor Shaw

Thaddeus Lewis

What happened at OTAs?: McCown embraced his fresh start in the best possible way, as he established himself not just as a leader within the walls of the Browns quarterbacks room, but the locker room as a whole. From Day 1 of offseason workouts, McCown worked with the first-team offense and proved effective in the new looks installed by first-year offensive coordinator John DeFilippo. Manziel, who drew praise from his teammates for an improved mindset and maturity, worked almost exclusively with the second-team offense and experienced the expected highs and lows that come with working under a fourth different offensive coordinator in as many seasons. Browns coach Mike Pettine and DeFilippo both endorsed McCown as the quarterback likeliest to start Game 1, eliminating the distraction of a wide-open quarterback competition that has consumed training camp in years past.

Under the radar: Though Shaw finished the season as the Browns’ starter against Baltimore, he primarily was used as the third quarterback during OTAs. That’s not an indictment on Shaw, who is beloved by Browns players and drew plenty of praise from coaches after his gutsy effort against the Ravens. When asked who “played like a Brown” most in 2014, many Browns players identified Shaw. There’s still time for Shaw to make an impact and create some tough decisions for Cleveland’s offensive coaches. He’s a valuable player to have in the locker room, whether he’s playing or not.

Variables to consider: What Manziel can do with his feet is difficult to simulate on the practice field, especially when the players aren’t wearing pads, so preseason games will be vital for him if he hopes to surpass McCown on the depth chart. How much he progresses with his grasp of DeFilippo’s offense will also be a major factor. Shaw is still eligible to be placed on the practice squad, but would the Browns be able to keep him there and out of the hands of another team?

Quote to note: “I’ve been very, very impressed with Josh. Josh and I talk about it all the time: He’s a better quarterback now than he was in 2007. I think he’s much better. Again, I don’t like to speak for the players, but I think he’ll tell you the same thing. I haven’t seen anything from an arm strength standpoint, from an athletic standpoint to tell me that his game has declined at all. He is much better in situational football, a much smarter quarterback than he was in 2007. That comes with time. He’s played a lot of football. I’ve been very, very pleased with Josh. Obviously, the intangibles with Josh are as good as any quarterback in the league in terms of his leadership, in terms of being a good person. All of those things that you’re looking for in a starting quarterback, Josh McCown has.” -- DeFilippo

How many were kept last year?: Two on the 53-man roster and one on the practice squad.

Link

I can understand why posters feel the way they do about Josh because of his history. But just suppose that with a new organization, a new system, better players around him and a reunion with Flip things come together for him. If he just becomes capable for us this team could definitely make some noise. It could happen. JMO

I agree this season is almost purely dependant on Josh being an avg or better QB. If he plays even just avg then we might just make it into the playoffs.

Talk about a dreamer. Let me put it to you this way:
NOT LIKELY!!!!!!!!!!!!

I agreed with most of this post except this part. I think Hoyer not being here is mostly a result of the toxic professional environment created by Farmer's texts. If it wasn't for that I think Hoyer would have extended at least for this season. I juts have a hard time believing that Pet would NOT want him here, and while his physical traits and abilities get debated back and forth, Hoyer showed he's got it upstairs. I don't see why Flip wouldn't want a guy like him when trying to install a new offense, especially if it is based on last years. I seriously doubt that the FO said to Flip:

"Hey Flip! Congratulations on the hire, and here's your office... Its 2 doors down from the Janitor's Closet and one door down from the Woman's Restroom. Not only do you get a designated parking space next to the ball boy, but another added perk of the job is you get to make 1 wish... what will it be?"

Flip: "Oh Gosh! ANYTHING??? Well, there was this one summer, and I had met this QB... you may call me crazy, but it was nothing short of a truly magical time in my life. It was my 'coming of age' experience in the NFL. I really WISH that I could reconnect with him and re-ignite this boyish passion inside me!"

FO: "And who is this magical QB that shared in a story fit for a low budget Indie pseudo French Noir movie?"

Flip: "McCown!"

FO: "Done!"

(Flip takes a drag off a really long cigarette and adjusts his black beret)

~Fin~


*just having a little fun at your expense buddy

I don't think it's far fetched at all that McCown being here had a lot to do with Flip.

It also had to do with Farmer.

It also had to do with Hoyer not being as willing of a mentor as McCown.

It also had to do with Hoyer's play.

But if I were a betting man and I had to put money on what Flip would say if given the choice between McCown and Hoyer I would put my money that he said he would rather have McCown.

I don't think that's far fetched at all.

I think that it also had to do with what Hoyer has said he wanted as a contract last season.

J/C here

The QB who I thought looked the best against us all year in 2014 was Ryan Mallett ... and then Houston resigned him for peanuts IIRC.

I would have much rather given him McCown's contract.

Almost exclusively. McCown is Flip's guy period.



Rumor has it that Text is the GM duh.



Pure BS, tell me what a poor team mate Hoyer was. The mentor thing is way overblown by this boards and its members. Hoyer shared the QB room with Johnny they were said to be friends although I feel certain that Hoyer wasn't out drinking and drugging with Johnny.

Pet went on record at one point as saying that he really didn't want anyone outside of his coaches mentoring his QB's. The mentor thing is and has always been pure made up BS. Don't any of you connect anything?

Do you really think McCown is watching Johnny and giving him pointers? Or do you think he is preparing himself to play? When their in the QB room and their breaking down film do you think Hoyer just sat there and didn't say a word about his reads pre and post? I guarantee you that's the extent of mentoring that goes on. Now I agree Johnny can see how to prepare but the effort to learn comes from him, not his mentor. And lets be honest here Johnny just didn't give any effort last year.

Bottom line here, I see no way that Hoyer wouldn't be helpful at the same time he has a job to do and that is to prepare to play. When the Browns decided to switch to Johnny last season Hoyer said I will do all I can to help him prepare and like it or not thats about as or equal to what McCown will do.

I mean you guys are full of you know what on this topic and always have been.



Yes it does he had a tough go at the end of last season. Here is the thing though, is Hoyer the start of the season Hoyer? or is he the end of the season Hoyer? It would have made it real hard for Flip to get the HC and GM to make a switch to McCown thats for sure.



Bingo, McCown was Flips choice period. He like Tab believes that the environment will turn a career loser into a winner. He came with a list of things that McCown would need to be successful #1 on that list is tall receivers.


I would add this.

~Back when everyone came back from vacation the Browns offered Hoyer a contract, but Hoyer wanted to talk to Pet and Flip before signing on the dotted line. I assume it was for 2 reasons Hoyer wanted to be certain he would have a chance to start and that he could count on Pet and Flip's support.

~After the meeting with Pet and Flip, Text was suppose to get in contact with Hoyer. In fact according to Hoyer Text sent him a text asking Hoyer to stop by his office, but no meeting was set up and Hoyer was waiting for Text and Text I think was waiting for Hoyer to set up a meeting.

~The meeting never happened because McCown was cut, and Flip fell over himself getting his guy.

That's why you see me say this was and is Flip's choice, and I say sense this is Flips guy and all Flip will either sink or swim with McCown. Flip believe's in the guy, why I do NOT know but he does. And I believe Flip has the right to pick his guy. It's a pretty bold move on his part, because if McCown fails (which is what I expect) Flip will be in the cross hairs.

~ If i were a betting man I would bet Flip won't be here next year.

I think there is zero chance Flip is fired at the end of the year unless he is just absolutely clueless. And I don't get the sense from anything reported that's the case. There is a much higher probability that Josh and/or Johnny will take the fall way before Flip does. Haslam, Pettine, and Farmer know the importance of continuity within the staff. They aren't going to subject themselves to the scrutiny that comes with another fired coach. They aren't going to subject the players to that either. Again, the only exception is a straight up mutiny by the players because Flip sucks so bad. But I'm talking Mo Carthon bad. I just don't see that.

As far as Hoyer being a good teammate vs. a willing mentor to Johnny, I think those two things are mutually exclusive. I think Hoyer was, in general, a good teammate. I think Hoyer resented Johnny, and I don't blame him. Here he is working his butt off for his hometown team while delivering wins and the fans are clamoring for his druggie back up who all of his teammates quietly think is a joke. Not to mention the guy didn't want to put in the work. I think Hoyer helped Johnny but I also think it was hard for him because he believed he should be starter. I think Farmer had a decision to make. If Johnny came back a different person and player, who was more ready to mentored, who better fit that role, Hoyer or McCown? Yeah, maybe Hoyer would have been a better mentor if Johnny had been a better student, but something tells me Hoyer's actions throughout the season made that notion uncertain. Hoyer's personality and desires just don't fit that mentor role the same way McCown's do - at least in this stage of his career, IMO.

I don't really care what Hoyer said to the media. He was a bit all over the place when it came to talking to the media. Throughout the season, at different points he came across as a great guy, as a selfish guy, as a nervous guy, as a whiny guy, and it appeared he liked to use the media to get messages out. I don't put a lot of stock into things that Hoyer said.

The Browns offering Hoyer a contract was a hedge. A smart business move. If they couldn't land anything else, they were going to continue to ride with him. I'm sure this tactic and approach was discussed in the offsite "meeting". As soon as they were able to move on, they did.

I don't agree with moving to McCown over Hoyer but there were a lot of factors that went into that decision. It's not as simple as "that was Flip's guy."

Probably because the issues to debate haven't changed. 10-12 years ago, when we stopped being "a new franchise" the feeling was that we were building a decent roster, we needed to keep a coach and staff to maintain some continuity, and we needed to find some stability at the QB position.

And we have debated these things year in and year out since then.... It becomes very difficult to debate the talents of a DB or a LB or an OG when there is this underlying feeling that until the coach and QB issues get resolved, it will have minimal impact.

It becomes difficult to look at any of the off-season optimism pieces when the underlying feeling is... show me. I've read it all before, I've watched it all unfold at least a dozen times... and it always unfolds the same.

It's like riding a roller coaster with your friends. You talk about it all week with your friends, how cool it's going to be, you watch video of it online, you talk to people who have ridden it, then you go ride it and it's cool and you talk about how cool it was.... then you ride it again and there is less to talk about.. by the 10th time you've ridden it and the ride hasn't changed, there isn't much to talk about....

If the Browns start to win, if the QB spot gets filled and TRUE optimism is found, if finding the right position player like TE or LB actually seems like something that could make us BETTER, then the conversation will change.

This is a dance we have been too before. Flip will justly be blamed for McCown, good or bad IMO. But the part your ignoring and that has repeatedly played out is 1st the press will turn on Flip then the fans will follow, and management will fold just like always. Hell Haslam has cleaned house 2 times in 3 years and you think he will stick it out with Flip if the franchise followed his advise and it turns into a nightmare? Come on Rish set aside your desire to see things stay in tact and use history as a guide.

Flip will get canned if McCown flops, and its likely as all hell you'll be leading the charge to see that that gets done.

In the end it will be a choice between Pet/Text and Flip, my money is on Flip. But make no mistake someone will be held accountable, its actually what Haslam has talked about from day one, and for that matter so has Pet, accountability is the flag they fly.



What exactly do you think a mentor does? sheeeeesh dude get real. McCown has his hands full getting ready to play, do you really really think that he is taking time from his own preparation to hold Johnny's hand?



I would remind you that YOU were one of the fans clamoring for Johnny. But I never heard you say you were wrong, maybe I missed it. But what that shows is how wrong you and many others can be. Your take a year ago was off nearly as much as your take is now. I like consistency your winning me over... LOL

The part you and others miss and that your missing now is Hoyer was the starter his responsibility started and ended with preparing to start, just like it is with Mccown now. The level of dedication and commitment it takes to play QB and be the starter doesn't allow for hand holding. Johnny will learn by coaching, observation and from the mistakes he see's. That is if he is smart. Then he will actually begin to ask smart questions, but that comes from him. Again you all want to lay the mentor-ship thing at the feet of the mentor and the student totally bears that responsibility. And you miss that by a wide margin.

I have been told to mentor those I work with but that falls on the person being mentored. They are responsible for their effort and attention to their craft. I can answer questions when asked and when I see them making a mistake, other then that they have to give effort. I am 1000% certain that when Johnny went to Hoyer and asked for advise or when Hoyer saw Johnny making a mistake he corrected him and thats what a mentor does. Also a huge part of being a team mate is helping so NO they are NOT mutually exclusive in fact you can't be one without being the other.



What your saying here is that he is honest without knowing it. Its strange as hell how you all sing the praises of Pet for his forthrightness and all but call Hoyer a liar.



To my knowledge Flip was NOT a part of that meeting. And of course its what best's for the team so it has nothing to do with business and everything to do with options, and the Browns options were limited. Lets put it this way if the Pat's are given the chance to get a better QB then Brady, Brady is history. It's how the NFL functions dude, get a grip.




Oh it was just that simple to bad your so hung up on what you want it to be to realize what it is. You need time to think it will eventually come to you.

While I struggle to explain why it is this way or how it came to be, I completely agree with your statement.

It used to be if one disagreed with another there would be a reasonably intelligent, sometimes knock-down-drag-out debate, on topic. These days the debates turn into a pissing match or a one-sided contest to see who can come up with the most witty put-downs or personal attacks leaving the topic a secondary argument or forgotten altogether, (which is, I believe, the goal of the weaker debater). It used to be others would join-in a debate with their own thoughts on the topic. Now people join-in to pile-on one or the other and the topic gets lost in the melee.

It used to be I would read every post to get what I could out of it in the quest to learn. I'd post everyday, sometimes for hours, because the conversations were interesting and all about Browns football. Now, I find myself reading every day but posting only a couple times a week as I scroll past post after post looking for a nugget from the few who don't post like elementary children on the playground.

I don't even respond much to the quality posters because often, that just gets me caught in the middle of the pissing match which is sure to ensue.

There are many other options out there to discuss the Browns. But this board is rooted in my heart for my own personal reasons so I'm destined to stay here. But it sure has changed over the past few years weakening as it morphs.

What I'm about to say may sound mean-hearted to some, but I'm wondering if all this can be traced back to the demise of the old "Browns Chat" board. At that time there was a migration of posters from there whom we all welcomed with a handshake and a pat on the back as fellow Browns fans. But I wonder now if that migration was more of a glut since many of them were part of the reason for the insanity and uselessness of that board which gave reason for the FO to simply shut it down since it became so disordered and couldn't be controlled. I say this because this board has now taken on some of the characteristics that made that board so chaotic.

I know for me it counts, I can't speak for Pitt. But what we are saying 2013 doesn't over ride 12 years of poor play. Even in 2013 he was 3-2 not exactly great. Mot to mention its the one and only time he recorded a winning record.

It's more like your pissing and moaning about someone not ignoring his career in favor of 2013, its not that their not including it cause they are.

I will be off the McCown sucks bandwagon soon because I believe that you have to show support in season, but this guy is his record and that record is what your crying about, not that we are ignoring any part of it. In order for us to be ignoring his record we would have to be you.....

clicking.

I don't know what's gonna happen with our 2015 QB situation, so all I wanna say is I am not excited one little bit about Josh frigging McCown as our starting QB. He actually makes me yearn for Jason Campbell. McCown has 12 years of suckiness under his belt, and if Manziel can't take the job from him, JFF sucks, too.

If you look at Hoyer and McCown's career stats they are very similar the only difference being that Hoyer built his stats with a Super-Bowl talented New England team and a Browns team that in my opinion is really only a QB away from being a playoff team where as most of McCown's stats have come from a so/so Arizona team and Bears team and 2 very bad Oakland and Tampa Bay teams. Is McCown our savior? I don't think so but I don't see him being any worse then Hoyer.

I don't think many are happy with McCown or even the thought of McCown for that matter. I'm not overjoyed with any of our QB's.

But I'm not Farmer or Haslam or Pettine. So there isn't a damn thing I can do about it but moan and groan..

Oh it counts Tab. It counts as five starts in a 12 year career. He's played in 69 games during his career. He's now 36 years old.

Even in the NFL, you need 6 games to call it a season. Just ask Josh Gordon. So I take it for what it is. Five games over a very long career.

Now if you wish to forget about the rest of his career, make excuses why he could only look this good for five games and try to show that will make him have any kind of realistic odds of success here, I can't buy into that.

That doesn't mean anybody is crying or sighting all the negatives. Negatives are what you point out in a draft prospect who you are evaluating. What people are pointing out is fact based on the play of McCown. You can't erase it or excuse it all.

I've seen a lot of QB's put together a five game run. We all have. Some of them have played here. In the grand scheme of things it means very little.

I would bet you dollars to donuts that I'm correct. But with the price of donuts being what they are today, it kind of loses its impact.

Not really Tab. Had he actually played a full season, heaven knows the results. Like I said, many QB's can look good in a five game stretch. I just keep it in context.

So you want to basically analyze the FIVE game in 2013 figure out what helped Josh succeed in those games and try to give him similar conditions here in Cleveland to try and help him repeat the success he had then.

Seems like a simple concept to grasp.

Well, I haven't been around for 2 months. Decided to check back in, and the same people are having the same arguments about the same topics with the same results. I'll check back in when there's something new to discuss.

See you in 2021 then.

maybe. but it looks to me that most of the posters you are talking about were here first then went to the old board then came back here?

Why did Chicago let McCown walk if he was so great in those 5 games?

Heck, if he has all these attributes that you are speaking of, why did:

Arizona, Oakland, Carolina, and Tampa Bay also part ways w/him? Why was he out of football for a year?

You can continue to act like those who are doubting McCown are the illogical ones, but your argument is a paper bag on a windy day.