DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Tailgate Forum Cavaliers Off-Season Continues

That's true, but you'd think with all the jumping basketball players do, they'd land more awkwardly to balance that out.

If NFL players all stopped wearing cleats, injuries below the waist would probably go down 30% to 40%

I am surprised that they don;t have cleats that break away once a specific amount of torque is exerted on them at the wrong angle.

TT supposedly signed the qualifying offer

Any source?

I saw this today: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/25109...gramming-league

So he's threatening that this will be his last year if he signs the Qual Offer. Then again, that's his only sort of leverage for a bigger contract this year, so who knows if he sticks to the threat.

I hope he plays the season like he wants to earn a bigger long term deal.

"If you guys don't give a big offer I'll leave a Championship team and a chance to play with the best player ever!"

It's called "business."

TT and Paul make me lol, both of them would be nobodies without lebron james...Both are trying to cash in that lebron will have some pull, problem is, TT isn't that good, and sure the hell isn't Kyrie money good..More money than Green? thats hilarious, I'd take green every single time. Theres a reason he was invited to Team usa and TT well wasn't. I'm sorry but 10pts and 8 rebs isn't that hard to replace, and I would venture to say we do it alot cheaper than 90 million..Cya TT, lets see you get that 90 million next year cause noone is lining up to give you even 80 now. I really hope gilbert stands firm and calls the bluff. TT is a durable plus level offensive rebounder, outside of that, he's not anything special. But him signing the QO will help us because he has to play balls out now

Can't give it up, can you?

Yeah, TT only got rebounds because LeBron was on the team. Right.

What's funny is you can't seem to see what every other GM sees...he's a marginal player...and yes..he only played as well as he did because of lebron...and yeah...all those 8 rebounds a game are worth 90 million..gmab. But yeah, lets give a guy who has the worst shooting percentage outside of 3 feet in the history of the league the same money as kyrie irving

I think the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle of you and Vers.

But to use Green as an example of a player worth that kind money is lunacy. He's a product of GS's system. Nothing more, nothing less. He's just a JAG on any other team.

The point of using green is they are very similar, except green has an offensive game and better PER..and he only got 82 million..Thats why you use him as a barometer..So you are going to take a less talented player and give him 90 million? It doesn't make sense. I like TT, I think he has a place on this team..but for 90 million, he can walk.. Thats pretty much my point. You can't be stupid and set a bad precedence for overpaying players. TT is worth MAX around 80 million..and thats being generous..if he develops more consistency at the line and a jumper like Andy, I'd have no issue giving him 90 million. That's Vers problem, he thinks i just don't want him on the team. Thats not true, I do, but only at a contract that makes sense. You give him 5 years and 90 million dollars, and then in 3 years you have old lebron and no flexibility and you're stuck with that bad contract. I think Gilbert isn't going to cave and TT will play on the QO and try FA next year and realize that contract doesn't exist for him.

I think the issue is that you made a ton of really misinformed statements about TT and when he started to play well, you couldn't relish that he was playing well and instead were embarrassed by your pathetic talent evaluations.

Yes, probably due to the fact that TT isn't American, but Canadian.

This is not true. The whole league is looking for guys like Green.

Hehe ... beat me to it!

omg, you are a trip..I am alot more versed in basketball than you..and I know I'm a hell of a lot better in talent evaluation than you ...tell me this genius...if Thompson is worth all this money...noone has even made an offer...especially this late in FA when its obvious the cavs are balking at giving him big money. Just about every beat writer agrees with me, he's a role player...you don't give role players max deals. But I'm done arguing, just putting you on ignore..only thing that is pathetic is your childish attempts at debate. Heaven forbid someone not agree with you.

details, details

For sure, Green is def. not just another guy..he's a solid player. I think he'd play well on any team

Read what you wrote about me and then examine yourself. We'll see if he gets his money or not.

There are, IIRC, only 2 teams that could fit anything approaching a max deal into their cap. Philly isn't adding any real veterans at this point, and I am not really sure what Portland's situation is. Plus, the Cavaliers have the right to match any offer Thompson gets. Thompson actually has the right post season, a year too early. Over the next 2 years, teams will be flush with cash and cap space. If this was next year, and if Thompson wasn't restricted.then I suspect that a team would have made him a serious offer. A max deal? Who knows? A substantial deal? I would bet on that.

I also don't know that Thompson is a "role player". I think that he showed that he can be a very good starter in the right system. He is never going to be a 4 who will draw the defense away and open up the lane, but he definitely has value in the right scheme. He showed some defensive chops in the playoffs, in addition to being able to score on put backs and such, and definitely showed he can rebound. He definitely has value. I question, like you do, whether that value approaches max level, and I really don't think that it is does ..... but all it takes is one team to disagree for him to leave. I think that Thompson is a valuable player ... and the problem is in just how valuable he is. I would hate to see him leave, but I also wonder if the Cavaliers would be well served in giving him a max deal. However, for this season, there are few teams who can/could offer him a max deal. Next year, that may change.

Portland offered Kanter the max and OKC matched it. I wouldn't be shocked if they forced the Cavs hand. I would.

And you claimed you are good at talent evaluation.

I think they can find a number in the middle. Once the new cap comes in, his contract won't really be a max contract by then anyway.

Plus, it's not my money.

If Portland does that (offer the max), I don't match if I'm the Cavs. Not worth the money to have TT come off the bench after you just signed your starting PF to a five-year deal. Not too mention the money is actually more with a max contract, at least in 2015 salary, because they're already well over the salary cap. It just doesn't add up for me.

And I don't get the argument that TT took his game to a whole different level in the playoffs after Love went down.

Season AVG-- 26min, 8.5pts, 8 rebs(3.3 OR), .7 blks

Postseason AVG-- 36min, 9.6pts, 10.8 rbs(4.4 OR), 1.2 blks

I understand stats do not tell the whole story of a player, game, etc. but going into the postseason TT wasn't considered a max contract player and nothing showed me, either in the above stats or in games, that TT took it to another level. His production was up because he averaged 10 more minutes a game in the postseason. His off. rebounds were timely for sure, but still provided little in direct offense.

No max contract for TT as far as I'm concerned but I hope we do pay him to keep him here. It just has to be at the right price, which will probably end up being slightly more than he is actually worth, IMO.

Thats how I feel...if theres a team that needs to add players its portland and they aren't touching. Reports are saying he wants 94 million...lol that more than Kyrie. To me its very simple. If he was a max player, we wouldn't have had to trade our last 2 first round picks (including rookie of year) to obtain a max level player that plays the same position. Even like Amico and Shaw have said, they overplayed their hand with the ultimatum.. I think theres room in the middle as we have a month before things will get tight. But I think you'll see something around 80 million for TT and I think thats more than generous for limited player.. On the flip side, him taking the QO and the cap going up next year could be good for both sides, and I think thats where Gilbert is at. I mean who gives a max deal for a guy that might get 15-18 minutes a game. With a healthly Love and Andy, theres not alot of minutes left. I still think Kaun might be in play here as well who would take minutes too and does everything TT does. I think if lebron james wasn't involved from a professional level this isn't even a discussion . I love lebron as a player, but to do the things professionally he does to the FO rubs me the wrong way. Saying things in the media about other players contracts is a No No. We'll see, I think theres a role for TT, and if anyone doesn't think he's a role player is n't watching . He's the very definition of a role player.

heres the problem, if i'm understanding correctly. for what TT want's it would cost the cavs 35 million this year for his contract alone...I'd balk at signing a role player for that as well.. If we could fit another max under cap without penalty then yeah, I think theyd do it..but to pay 35 million .
Heres the exert from the article that lays out what I think the cavs are trying to do, but the James/paul fiasco is trying to use leverage they really don't have


"The Cavs have five other players (James, Kevin Love, Kyrie Irving, Iman Shumpert and Anderson Varejao) who are starting new contracts that average at least $10 million a season. They are already about $4 million over the tax line. If they were to sign Thompson to a deal that started at $15 million, it would add more than $35 million to their tax bill this season alone, not including Thompson's salary.

However, if Thompson were to sign his qualifying offer of less than $7 million, the tax hit to the Cavs drops to around $13 million based on the team's current roster makeup. The Cavs would retain Thompson's Bird Rights and still be able to sign him to the largest possible contract next year when the cap jump would also pull up the luxury tax line and likely make it far less costly.

Deferring Thompson's big payday, even if it costs the Cavs more money in salary in a bidding war next year, potentially would make fiscal sense when evaluating the tax savings this coming year alone. This is probably not the Cavs' preferred route, especially because it may foster some acrimony. But that option may give them reason to stand fast when Thompson attempts to use the qualifying offer as leverage."

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/13406651/tristan-thompson-cleveland-cavaliers-remain-far-apart

Yeah, the Cavs will pay him next year and I don't see TT passing up a chance to play with Lebron, on a Championship team, that can pay him the most money because "his feelings were hurt" this year.

Rich Paul is bluffing with a threat because they don't have any leverage left. Nobody wants to sign him to a max, because he's frankly not worth it, and the Cavs can just bide their time. He's either playing on a Qual or he's taking that $80 mil a year deal that's more than fair for him.

Dellavedova was in the same situation. He was trying to parlay two months of good playoff play into a huge contract. The Cavs called the bluff and saved themselves a good chunk of luxary tax. He took the Qual offer so he has options and likely a much better payday next year when the luxary line and cap go up. TT & Paul are just trying to force the issue.

If I was Dan Gilbert, I wouldn't dick around with any of LeBron's buddies.

We all have our opinions on this and most of them make sense, except for leads...LOL

I just think that using stats to say what kind of player TT is not the most intelligent thing to do.

I think that those who know the game understand exactly how important TT is to the team. He doesn't open things up because of his scoring, but when teams have to face-guard him, things are opened up for other players. Second chance points are absolutely huge in hoops. It's like the turnover ration in football.

I can guarantee you that his coaches and teammates recognize how valuable he is. No, he is not the flashy, big-time scorer, high-flying guy that most fans love, but he makes his team better. He is one of the most important guys on the team. He didn't choke like some of the other guys. The moment never got too big for him.

Not retaining him would be a mistake.

I think he's worth it. He's definitely limited on offense, but with the way this team is built, that's ok. I also think he's still young enough to where he can develop a better offensive game. I've said it a million times, if he can ever get a 15 footer down, he'll be insanely good. He's durable, his style fits playoff style basketball where possessions are crucial. I just think they need to pony up. I know the luxury tax is through the roof but with everyone coming back this has the makings of something special.

Also, having him, Love, and Mozzy on our team allows us to be able to matchup with all different kinds of lineups. You've got a little bit of everything. You can create big and small lineups.

My concern is this ......

Can the team have 5 max deals?

We already have Lebron, Kyrie and Kevin Love all signed to max deals. Then we add Thompson to that category. After next season, Mozgov becomes a free agent ..... and I don't think that anyone doubts that he will be a max player as well. Can the team manage 5 max contracts, and then also manage to fit in the other pieces that are necessary to compete for a championship?

Lebron is probably going to be close to $30 million/year when he finally signs a long term deal, and when the cap stabilizes. What will Moz get? It will be the max ..... but how much? I would guess the same as Thompson wants, and more .... since the cap will be higher next year.

So ... next year we could have: (with an $80 million cap IIRC)

Lebron @ $30 million
Kevin @ $22 million
Kyrie at $16 million (though I read something about his deal recalculating upward when/if the cap goes up?)
Thompson @ $16 million.
Moz at $20 million

That puts the team over $100 million with just these 5 players.

We also have Shumpert @ $9 million, and Andy at $10 million. That puts the team with an $80 million cap, at almost $125 million.

We know that Gilbert isn't afraid to go over the cap, or even to pay luxury tax, but where does his willingness to do so end? If the cap is $80 million, but he is paying over $220 million in salary and taxes .... well, where does he draw the line? Just because an owner is willing to go over the cap doesn't mean that he has no limits. I would guess that he doesn't want to lose money owning this team. That is the risk.

My concern is that we find ourselves unable to re-sign Mozgov, after we re-sign Thompson. I think that Mozgov is far more important to the team, especially defensively. I just worry about the massive tax bill, and when that reality sinks in for Gilbert. I know he wants to win, but I have to wonder if he is willing to lose money in doing so.

In an ideal world, I want us to keep everyone we had last year. I wonder if we can do that though. Can we pay 4 starters and 1 backup all max deals?

Just win the title next season and worry about all that stuff when you have to..

Just get one first.. before you start trying to build a dynasty..

I think it is a perfectly intelligent thing to do to back up the argument that TT didn't skyrocket into stardom/ max contract worthiness simply by his performance in the playoffs. To his credit, he's actually been a consistent player throughout his career. You know exactly what you are going to get from him each day.

I would agree people who know the game understand his importance. And that importance doesn't reach max contract status, IMO.

No question, which is why I was careful to insert "direct" offense in my post. But yes his offensive rebounds (an average increase of one extra in the playoffs) does allow second chance points. That still doesn't warrant max contract to me.

Agree with all of that....but none of these intangibles warrant a max contract which is the entirety of my argument.

I want to keep Tristan at the right price.....Signing him to a max contract because his teammates like him, doesn't choke, not afraid of the big moment doesn't justify it to me. He'll come off the bench and actually cost the Cavs more than just the max contract salary (or at any salary point for that matter) in 2015 and possibly beyond.

The theme in all of my responses is not worth max contract but keep him at the right price. That's my position.

58.5% from the foul line and you want HOW MUCH. Lord I would be embarrassed to even walk to the free throw line.

I doubt it.

But I guess I can always be persuaded.

Still showing how childish you are (can't resist bashing me like you're a 3rd grader)especially because I'm right...hate to say it but alot more people see the way I do than yours...and the fact that you say statistics shouldn't be used show how little you know about sports...they are a big part of the equation..not all..but it is how we determine productivity, and he's not a max player..He is not max level important to this team...he didn't lead the team in any category except worse FT and FG percentage...not exactly ringing endorsement. Atleast with my arguments I post facts and articles while you blindly "OMG, He's so awesome we should pay him 50million (which is exactly what it would be like if we gave him a max contract this year) so ask yourself this...is the backup pf/c worth 50 million dollars for this year...or does it make sense to lock him in to his actual value, sign the QO and give him more money next year when it wouldn't hurt so much.. but Go ahead and go back to flaming on me... Skew my perceived opinion all you want...my stance has not wavered...TT has a place on the team for sure, but not for the money he's asking.. Look a the Jordan Hill contract...same amount of minutes, same amount of rebounds, 4 more points a game and shoots 70+ % from FT had 22 double doubles to thompsons 14 in less games and same amount of mpg. He just got 5 million a year..

Good rebuttal. We don't totally agree, but that was a good debate.