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However, there has also been a shift towards acceptance of previously taboo sexual orientations and the overall "seriousness" of sexuality in terms of virginity and pair bonding. So homosexuality/trans has become more acceptable, however, casual sex and single motherhood have also become much more acceptable (even praised, yuck). Divorce rates have also sky rocketed. All these trends point towards sexuality being divorced/separated from traditional values and seriousness.


What do social mores on sex between consenting adults have to do with pedophilia?

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Currently many parents accept their children having sex with other children outside of wedlock before they are 18. It is reasonable to suggest the social mores could shift towards this being acceptable to do with adults.


Again, I am failing to see the connection here. What does out of wedlock sex between two teenagers have in common with a 38 year old man having sex with a 16 year old? Where is a concrete example of this being more acceptable in American society? The trend has been a decidedly harsher and harsher view towards such behavior. There is nothing to suggest a more lax attitude, or even the notion of a more lax attitude in the future.

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For the record I have no problem with a 16 year old acting like an adult and engaging in this. I would never advise them, but I'm not for telling someone else how to live.

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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
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It is gross and disgusting, but the way things are going in this country, guys like Jared will be applauded, accepted, and celebrated in about 15 years for coming out.


You would think that maybe one or two people would have posted statements supporting him if your version of the future was based on reality.

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Originally Posted By: Swish
Barely 100-150 years ago, teens were getting married. Hell teens are getting married today in this country.

The age of consent was virtually non existent. So what happened that made the push?


Back in that time, marriage was still a contract between families. Young women were pushed into marriage starting at the age of 13 and were usually married off to men 20-30 years older. There are a couple reasons for this.

The number one killer of women during that time was childbirth, and it was thought best to give birth when younger. Most men were not financially able to provide for a wife and family until they were in their 30s. Dowries were still paid to families for the marriage of their daughters. Women were closer to property than people.


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The broader the definition we use for words like pedophilia, the more blurred becomes the lines that cannot be crossed. My grandmother on Dad's side was born in Italy and married at the age of 14 - my grandfather was 28. I'm assuming it was an arranged marriage. I'm not an expert on these things, but I believe arranged marriages happened only after the girl child had reached puberty - at least in Europe. But here, now, today, we have to agree that sex between any person capable of sexual penetration and any child yet to reach the age of sexuality has to be condemned, social or religious mores be damned. Much like OVI cheapens drunk driving, or having sex with a 16 year old when you're 18 marginalizes rape, we diminish the the true meaning of words that should convey only "thou shalt not ...", IMO.

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Could you highlight a section of your cited article that gives any indication that America is headed towards acceptance or heralding of a 38 year old man having sex with a 16 year old, or a 38 year old man viewing pornographic images of a 6 year old?

Jack, you have been pretty respectful so I am trying to be myself but your questions are beginning to border on annoying. I DO NOT have a playbook on how all of this is going to play out. Other than NAMBLA, I don't know what groups will jump in on which side... and I have no idea what the timeline will be.... You want these facts as if this big movement is underway and it's all out there and it's not.. my point is that I will not be surprised when it is... you evidently will be totally shocked.

This is what I know about the direction we are going sexually...

Every country/state that is discussing age of consent, is discussing lowering it, not raising it.

50 years ago if you were gay you had to keep it a secret or face serious backlash, now if you say anything at all negative about gay people you will face serious backlash...

20 years ago transgenders were considered freaks, now they are winning courage awards... and parents are fighting for the right to have sex changes for elementary school kids..

40 years ago having an abortion was something not looked favorably upon and often done in secret, now there is a debate over how old a high school should have to be to NOT tell her parents she is having one.

An 18 year old walking into the 7-11 to buy condoms used to be moderately embarrassing for most guys, now they hand them out for free in middle schools.

We have gone from very conservative clothing to very liberal clothing to women wanting the right to go topless in public in this country...

Now, you may agree with some of that, you may agree with all of it... the rightness or wrongness of each of those is pretty irrelevant but the fact remains that with each passing decade we are opening up more and more sexual possibilities... so if you think that reducing the age of consent or widening the gap between the younger and older person in a relationship isn't going to be a topic at some point, then I will admit I don't have a lot of hard facts to prove you wrong... but I think you are terribly naive.

The first fight is not going to be to allow a 38 year old to have sex with a 6 year old... but from 14 to 18? From 14 to 20?


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Originally Posted By: ErikInHell
Originally Posted By: Swish
Barely 100-150 years ago, teens were getting married. Hell teens are getting married today in this country.

The age of consent was virtually non existent. So what happened that made the push?


Back in that time, marriage was still a contract between families. Young women were pushed into marriage starting at the age of 13 and were usually married off to men 20-30 years older. There are a couple reasons for this.

The number one killer of women during that time was childbirth, and it was thought best to give birth when younger. Most men were not financially able to provide for a wife and family until they were in their 30s. Dowries were still paid to families for the marriage of their daughters. Women were closer to property than people.

Add in that life expectancy was significantly lower, plus infant mortality rate was greater... and since we were an agricultural nation, having a lot of kids was a necessity for many so you started early.

Plus, there was little to no value in education for most people so there was no benefit for most (especially women) to stay single and finish their education...


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This was a shocking and horrifying report. I encourage you to follow the link to read it for the accompanying photos and video, but have included the text here because I think it's an important story. Didn't originally think this story would lead to this article but this is the direction this thread is going, so here you go...

=============================================================

ISIS Enshrines a
Theology of Rape


Claiming the Quran’s support, the
Islamic State codifies sex slavery in
conquered regions of Iraq and Syria and
uses the practice as a recruiting tool.


Written by RUKMINI CALLIMACHI AUG. 13, 2015


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/08/14/world/middleeast/isis-enshrines-a-theology-of-rape.html

QADIYA, Iraq — In the moments before he raped the 12-year-old girl, the Islamic State fighter took the time to explain that what he was about to do was not a sin. Because the preteen girl practiced a religion other than Islam, the Quran not only gave him the right to rape her — it condoned and encouraged it, he insisted.

He bound her hands and gagged her. Then he knelt beside the bed and prostrated himself in prayer before getting on top of her.

When it was over, he knelt to pray again, bookending the rape with acts of religious devotion.

“I kept telling him it hurts — please stop,” said the girl, whose body is so small an adult could circle her waist with two hands. “He told me that according to Islam he is allowed to rape an unbeliever. He said that by raping me, he is drawing closer to God,” she said in an interview alongside her family in a refugee camp here, to which she escaped after 11 months of captivity.

The systematic rape of women and girls from the Yazidi religious minority has become deeply enmeshed in the organization and the radical theology of the Islamic State in the year since the group announced it was reviving slavery as an institution. Interviews with 21 women and girls who recently escaped the Islamic State, as well as an examination of the group’s official communications, illuminate how the practice has been enshrined in the group’s core tenets.


The trade in Yazidi women and girls has created a persistent infrastructure, with a network of warehouses where the victims are held, viewing rooms where they are inspected and marketed, and a dedicated fleet of buses used to transport them.

A total of 5,270 Yazidis were abducted last year, and at least 3,144 are still being held, according to community leaders. To handle them, the Islamic State has developed a detailed bureaucracy of sex slavery, including sales contracts notarized by the ISIS-run Islamic courts. And the practice has become an established recruiting tool to lure men from deeply conservative Muslim societies, where casual sex is taboo and dating is forbidden.

A growing body of internal policy memos and theological discussions has established guidelines for slavery, including a lengthy how-to manual issued by the Islamic State Research and Fatwa Department just last month. Repeatedly, the ISIS leadership has emphasized a narrow and selective reading of the Quran and other religious rulings to not only justify violence, but also to elevate and celebrate each sexual assault as spiritually beneficial, even virtuous.

“Every time that he came to rape me, he would pray,” said F, a 15-year-old girl who was captured on the shoulder of Mount Sinjar one year ago and was sold to an Iraqi fighter in his 20s. Like some others interviewed by The New York Times, she wanted to be identified only by her first initial because of the shame associated with rape.

“He kept telling me this is ibadah,” she said, using a term from Islamic scripture meaning worship.

“He said that raping me is his prayer to God. I said to him, ‘What you’re doing to me is wrong, and it will not bring you closer to God.’ And he said, ‘No, it’s allowed. It’s halal,’ ” said the teenager, who escaped in April with the help of smugglers after being enslaved for nearly nine months.

Calculated Conquest

The Islamic State’s formal introduction of systematic sexual slavery dates to Aug. 3, 2014, when its fighters invaded the villages on the southern flank of Mount Sinjar, a craggy massif of dun-colored rock in northern Iraq.

Its valleys and ravines are home to the Yazidis, a tiny religious minority who represent less than 1.5 percent of Iraq’s estimated population of 34 million.

The offensive on the mountain came just two months after the fall of Mosul, the second-largest city in Iraq. At first, it appeared that the subsequent advance on the mountain was just another attempt to extend the territory controlled by Islamic State fighters.

Almost immediately, there were signs that their aim this time was different.

Survivors say that men and women were separated within the first hour of their capture. Adolescent boys were told to lift up their shirts, and if they had armpit hair, they were directed to join their older brothers and fathers. In village after village, the men and older boys were driven or marched to nearby fields, where they were forced to lie down in the dirt and sprayed with automatic fire.

The women, girls and children, however, were hauled off in open-bed trucks.

“The offensive on the mountain was as much a sexual conquest as it was for territorial gain,” said Matthew Barber, a University of Chicago expert on the Yazidi minority. He was in Dohuk, near Mount Sinjar, when the onslaught began last summer and helped create a foundation that provides psychological support for the escapees, who number more than 2,000, according to community activists.

Fifteen-year-old F says her family of nine was trying to escape, speeding up mountain switchbacks, when their aging Opel overheated. She, her mother, and her sisters — 14, 7, and 4 years old — were helplessly standing by their stalled car when a convoy of heavily armed Islamic State fighters encircled them.

“Right away, the fighters separated the men from the women,” she said. She, her mother and sisters were first taken in trucks to the nearest town on Mount Sinjar. “There, they separated me from my mom. The young, unmarried girls were forced to get into buses.”

The buses were white, with a painted stripe next to the word “Hajj,” suggesting that the Islamic State had commandeered Iraqi government buses used to transport pilgrims for the annual pilgrimage to Mecca. So many Yazidi women and girls were loaded inside F’s bus that they were forced to sit on each other’s laps, she said.

Once the bus headed out, they noticed that the windows were blocked with curtains, an accouterment that appeared to have been added because the fighters planned to transport large numbers of women who were not covered in burqas or head scarves.

F’s account, including the physical description of the bus, the placement of the curtains and the manner in which the women were transported, is echoed by a dozen other female victims interviewed for this article. They described a similar set of circumstances even though they were kidnapped on different days and in locations miles apart.

F says she was driven to the Iraqi city of Mosul some six hours away, where they herded them into the Galaxy Wedding Hall. Other groups of women and girls were taken to a palace from the Saddam Hussein era, the Badoosh prison compound and the Directory of Youth building in Mosul, recent escapees said. And in addition to Mosul, women were herded into elementary schools and municipal buildings in the Iraqi towns of Tal Afar, Solah, Ba’aj and Sinjar City.

They would be held in confinement, some for days, some for months. Then, inevitably, they were loaded into the same fleet of buses again before being sent in smaller groups to Syria or to other locations inside Iraq, where they were bought and sold for sex.

“It was 100 percent preplanned,” said Khider Domle, a Yazidi community activist who maintains a detailed database of the victims. “I spoke by telephone to the first family who arrived at the Directory of Youth in Mosul, and the hall was already prepared for them. They had mattresses, plates and utensils, food and water for hundreds of people.”

Detailed reports by Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International reach the same conclusion about the organized nature of the sex trade.

In each location, survivors say Islamic State fighters first conducted a census of their female captives.

Inside the voluminous Galaxy banquet hall, F sat on the marble floor, squeezed between other adolescent girls. In all she estimates there were over 1,300 Yazidi girls sitting, crouching, splayed out and leaning against the walls of the ballroom, a number that is confirmed by several other women held in the same location.

They each described how three Islamic State fighters walked in, holding a register. They told the girls to stand. Each one was instructed to state her first, middle and last name, her age, her hometown, whether she was married, and if she had children.

For two months, F was held inside the Galaxy hall. Then one day, they came and began removing young women. Those who refused were dragged out by their hair, she said.

In the parking lot the same fleet of Hajj buses was waiting to take them to their next destination, said F. Along with 24 other girls and young women, the 15-year-old was driven to an army base in Iraq. It was there in the parking lot that she heard the word “sabaya” for the first time.

“They laughed and jeered at us, saying ‘You are our sabaya.’ I didn’t know what that word meant,” she said. Later on, the local Islamic State leader explained it meant slave.

“He told us that Taus Malik” — one of seven angels to whom the Yazidis pray — “is not God. He said that Taus Malik is the devil and that because you worship the devil, you belong to us. We can sell you and use you as we see fit.”

The Islamic State’s sex trade appears to be based solely on enslaving women and girls from the Yazidi minority. As yet, there has been no widespread campaign aimed at enslaving women from other religious minorities, said Samer Muscati, the author of the recent Human Rights Watch report. That assertion was echoed by community leaders, government officials and other human rights workers.

Mr. Barber, of the University of Chicago, said that the focus on Yazidis was likely because they are seen as polytheists, with an oral tradition rather than a written scripture. In the Islamic State’s eyes that puts them on the fringe of despised unbelievers, even more than Christians and Jews, who are considered to have some limited protections under the Quran as “People of the Book.”

In Kojo, one of the southernmost villages on Mount Sinjar and among the farthest away from escape, residents decided to stay, believing they would be treated as the Christians of Mosul had months earlier. On Aug. 15, 2014, the Islamic State ordered the residents to report to a school in the center of town.

When she got there, 40-year-old Aishan Ali Saleh found a community elder negotiating with the Islamic State, asking if they could be allowed to hand over their money and gold in return for safe passage.

The fighters initially agreed and laid out a blanket, where Ms. Saleh placed her heart-shaped pendant and her gold rings, while the men left crumpled bills.

Instead of letting them go, the fighters began shoving the men outside, bound for death.

Sometime later, a fleet of cars arrived and the women, girls and children were driven away.

The Market

Months later, the Islamic State made clear in their online magazine that their campaign of enslaving Yazidi women and girls had been extensively preplanned.

“Prior to the taking of Sinjar, Shariah students in the Islamic State were tasked to research the Yazidis,” said the English-language article, headlined “The Revival of Slavery Before the Hour,” which appeared in the October issue of Dabiq.

The article made clear that for the Yazidis, there was no chance to pay a tax known as jizya to be set free, “unlike the Jews and Christians.”

“After capture, the Yazidi women and children were then divided according to the Shariah amongst the fighters of the Islamic State who participated in the Sinjar operations, after one fifth of the slaves were transferred to the Islamic State’s authority to be divided” as spoils, the article said.

In much the same way as specific Bible passages were used centuries later to support the slave trade in the United States, the Islamic State cites specific verses or stories in the Quran or else in the Sunna, the traditions based on the sayings and deeds of the Prophet Muhammad, to justify their human trafficking, experts say.

Scholars of Islamic theology disagree, however, on the proper interpretation of these verses, and on the divisive question of whether Islam actually sanctions slavery.

Many argue that slavery figures in Islamic scripture in much the same way that it figures in the Bible — as a reflection of the period in antiquity in which the religion was born.

“In the milieu in which the Quran arose, there was a widespread practice of men having sexual relationships with unfree women,” said Kecia Ali, an associate professor of religion at Boston University and the author of a book on slavery in early Islam. “It wasn’t a particular religious institution. It was just how people did things.”

Cole Bunzel, a scholar of Islamic theology at Princeton University, disagrees, pointing to the numerous references to the phrase “Those your right hand possesses” in the Quran, which for centuries has been interpreted to mean female slaves. He also points to the corpus of Islamic jurisprudence, which continues into the modern era and which he says includes detailed rules for the treatment of slaves.

“There is a great deal of scripture that sanctions slavery,” said Mr. Bunzel, the author of a research paper published by the Brookings Institution on the ideology of the Islamic State. “You can argue that it is no longer relevant and has fallen into abeyance. ISIS would argue that these institutions need to be revived, because that is what the Prophet and his companions did.”

The youngest, prettiest women and girls were bought in the first weeks after their capture. Others — especially older, married women — described how they were transported from location to location, spending months in the equivalent of human holding pens, until a prospective buyer bid on them.

Their captors appeared to have a system in place, replete with its own methodology of inventorying the women, as well as their own lexicon. Women and girls were referred to as “Sabaya,” followed by their name. Some were bought by wholesalers, who photographed and gave them numbers, to advertise them to potential buyers.

Osman Hassan Ali, a Yazidi businessman who has successfully smuggled out numerous Yazidi women, said he posed as a buyer in order to be sent the photographs. He shared a dozen images, each one showing a Yazidi woman sitting in a bare room on a couch, facing the camera with a blank, unsmiling expression. On the edge of the photograph is written in Arabic, “Sabaya No. 1,” “Sabaya No. 2,” and so on.

Buildings where the women were collected and held sometimes included a viewing room.

“When they put us in the building, they said we had arrived at the ‘Sabaya Market,’” said one 19-year-old victim, whose first initial is I. “I understood we were now in a slave market.”

She estimated there were at least 500 other unmarried women and girls in the multistory building, with the youngest among them being 11. When the buyers arrived, the girls were taken one by one into a separate room.

“The emirs sat against the wall and called us by name. We had to sit in a chair facing them. You had to look at them, and before you went in, they took away our scarves and anything we could have used to cover ourselves,” she said.

“When it was my turn, they made me stand four times. They made me turn around.”

The captives were also forced to answer intimate questions, including reporting the exact date of their last menstrual cycle. They realized that the fighters were trying to determine whether they were pregnant, in keeping with a Shariah rule stating that a man cannot have intercourse with his slave if she is pregnant.

Property of ISIS

The use of sex slavery by the Islamic State initially surprised even the group’s most ardent supporters, many of whom sparred with journalists online after the first reports of systematic rape.

The Islamic State’s leadership has repeatedly sought to justify the practice to its internal audience.

After the initial article in Dabiq in October, the issue came up in the publication again this year, in an editorial in May that expressed the writer’s hurt and dismay at the fact that some of the group’s own sympathizers had questioned the institution of slavery.

“What really alarmed me was that some of the Islamic State’s supporters started denying the matter as if the soldiers of the Khilafah had committed a mistake or evil,” the author wrote. “I write this while the letters drip of pride,’’ she said. “We have indeed raided and captured the kafirahwomen and drove them like sheep by the edge of the sword.” Kafirah refers to infidels.

In a pamphlet published online in December, the Research and Fatwa Department of the Islamic State detailed best practices, including explaining that slaves belong to the estate of the fighter who bought them and therefore can be willed to another man and disposed of just like any other property after his death.

Recent escapees describe an intricate bureaucracy surrounding their captivity, with their status as a slave registered in a contract. When their owner would sell them to another buyer, a new contract would be drafted, like transferring a property deed. At the same time, slaves can also be set free, and fighters are promised a heavenly reward for doing so.

Though rare, this has created one avenue of escape for victims.

A 25-year-old victim who escaped last month, identified by her first initial, A, described how one day her Libyan master handed her a laminated piece of paper. He explained that he had finished his training as a suicide bomber and was planning to blow himself up, and was therefore setting her free.

Labeled a “Certificate of Emancipation,” the document was signed by the judge of the western province of the Islamic State. The Yazidi woman presented it at security checkpoints as she left Syria to return to Iraq, where she rejoined her family in July.

The Islamic State recently made it clear that sex with Christian and Jewish women captured in battle is also permissible, according to a new 34-page manual issued this summer by the terror group’s Research and Fatwa Department.

Just about the only prohibition is having sex with a pregnant slave, and the manual describes how an owner must wait for a female captive to have her menstruating cycle, in order to “make sure there is nothing in her womb,” before having intercourse with her. Of the 21 women and girls interviewed for this article, among the only ones who had not been raped were the women who were already pregnant at the moment of their capture, as well as those who were past menopause.

Beyond that, there appears to be no bounds to what is sexually permissible. Child rape is explicitly condoned: “It is permissible to have intercourse with the female slave who hasn’t reached puberty, if she is fit for intercourse,” according to a translation by the Middle East Media Research Institute of a pamphlet published on Twitter last December.

One 34-year-old Yazidi woman, who was bought and repeatedly raped by a Saudi fighter in the Syrian city of Shadadi, described how she fared better than the second slave in the household — a 12-year-old girl who was raped for days on end despite heavy bleeding.

“He destroyed her body. She was badly infected. The fighter kept coming and asking me, ‘Why does she smell so bad?’ And I said, she has an infection on the inside, you need to take care of her,” the woman said.

Unmoved, he ignored the girl’s agony, continuing the ritual of praying before and after raping the child.

“I said to him, ‘She’s just a little girl,’ ” the older woman recalled. “And he answered: ‘No. She’s not a little girl. She’s a slave. And she knows exactly how to have sex.’ ’’

“And having sex with her pleases God,” he said.

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and Satan smiled...

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But DC, we can play that game both ways.

50 years ago Miscegenation was illegal in the southern states.

40 years ago homosexuals had to move to "haven cities" to avoid physical and emotional abuse.

12 years ago anti-sodomy laws were legal for states to have.

And the condom story is especially double sided because the guy would just not buy them, to avoid the embarrassing purchase at the 7-11. You can see the problem with that, yes?

Even today, you can discriminate in most states on the basis of gender identity or sexual orientation. In Ohio you can discriminate on the basis of gender identity/sexual orientation when it comes to non-state employment. If someone is gay you can fire them for being gay, and they have no recourse in the state of Ohio.

Last edited by gage; 08/20/15 11:46 AM.

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I apologize if I am annoying you, that isn't my intent. But I stand behind my questions and the logic that informs them. I happen to think your argument is of the slippery slope variety, and a flimsy one at that. There is absolutely no indication that our society is becoming more lax on issues concerning pedophilia. It is quite the opposite, actually. Murderers are given more leeway than pedophiles. And let's face it: the whole "the way things are going" argument is rooted in anger over homosexuals and transgender individuals being accepted in American society. To lump them in with people who hurt children, even on a cursory basis, is disingenuous and wrong. Part of me feels that you're just playing devil's advocate here, which is fine, but I stand behind my sentiments that there is zero evidence to back the notion that "the way things are going" we as a society will soon be accepting of people like Jared Fogle. To make such an argument is to ignore evidence and reason, and is done so to air a grievance over sociopolitical matters more than it is examining evidence and trends and deducing a possible or probable path. We're closer to stoning pedophiles to death than we are accepting them.

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Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
and Satan smiled...


And suddenly, off in the distance, a man began to yell and shake his fist at the sky. People gathered and all joined the man and began to yell with the man. Soon people from all around the world gathered to yell and shake their fists and proclaim this has gone too far, it is enough! The News programs picked up on this mass movement and showed the World rising up in anger.

They have crossed the line, they have perverted the planet, they have done a great injustice to all mankind and they must be stopped, the people cried! We should drag them through the streets or lock them away in prison, some even called for the deaths of the offenders, those evil ones among us! Round them up from around the world and bring them all to one place that they may face our wrath and see our justice!

For they have done the unspeakable and killed our friendly Lion

and Satan smiled...

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Originally Posted By: gage
But DC, we can play that game both ways.

50 years ago Miscegenation was illegal in the southern states.

40 years ago homosexuals had to move to "haven cities" to avoid physical and emotional abuse.

12 years ago anti-sodomy laws were legal for states to have.

And the condom story is especially double sided because the guy would just not buy them, to avoid the embarrassing purchase at the 7-11. You can see the problem with that, yes?

Even today, you can discriminate in most states on the basis of gender identity or sexual orientation. In Ohio you can discriminate on the basis of gender identity/sexual orientation when it comes to non-state employment. If someone is gay you can fire them for being gay, and they have no recourse in the state of Ohio.

You aren't playing it both ways, you are basically agreeing with me.. for the most part, things that were once considered taboo, considered highly immoral, even illegal... and becoming acceptable and mainstream... which is exactly the point I've been arguing.


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Quote:
I apologize if I am annoying you, that isn't my intent. But I stand behind my questions and the logic that informs them. I happen to think your argument is of the slippery slope variety, and a flimsy one at that.

You are asking for facts and "prove it".. what I'm arguing is future speculation based on past events.... I suppose you could classify it as a slippery slope argument, I just don't think it's that flimsy.

Quote:
And let's face it: the whole "the way things are going" argument is rooted in anger over homosexuals and transgender individuals being accepted in American society.

For some maybe, I will admit it used to be that way for me but is not any longer. But I have a question, do you think the march toward more sexual openness, breaking down of sexual related barriers is over? Have we gone as far as we can go? If not, what do you see as the next frontier in the new sexual revolution?

Quote:
To lump them in with people who hurt children, even on a cursory basis, is disingenuous and wrong.

I'm not doing that.. I merely stated that the path they ended up following to gain acceptance is now set... and it wouldn't surprise me if others will try to follow that same path.. because it worked.

Quote:
but I stand behind my sentiments that there is zero evidence to back the notion that "the way things are going" we as a society will soon be accepting of people like Jared Fogle.

First, I never said "soon".. second I never said we would accept it, I just said the fight for it is going to grow.

Quote:
We're closer to stoning pedophiles to death than we are accepting them.

Of course we are, when you think of pedophiles as 40ish year old hairy men taking advantage of 10 year old little girls.. which is the image most get when the word pedophiles is used...

At the same time, I've seen some of the responses when it's a hot female teacher of 28 and a 16 year old boy.... quite a few of the responses are "Where was that when I was in high school?" then they are followed with.. "sure it's illegal and wrong, but I bet he had bragging rights in the locker room" or some such comment. The thought of stoning her to death, never really comes up.


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... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.

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Quote:
You are asking for facts and "prove it".. what I'm arguing is future speculation based on past events.... I suppose you could classify it as a slippery slope argument, I just don't think it's that flimsy.


I'm not asking for fact or proof. I merely asked for evidence or indication. The responses I've received thus far have included references to changing social attitudes towards divorce, homosexuality, transgender individuals, etc. None of which have anything to do with pedophilia. It would be like me saying "The way things are going in this country, pretty soon Jeffrey Dahmer will be revered as a folk hero", and when asked why, citing lax attitudes towards profanity. All I've asked is evidence pointing towards a trend in pedophilia being accepted or revered, which was the sentiment that started this whole dialogue. The closest I've seen is a Huffington Post article questioning statutory rape laws in regards to young people in close age ranges. There is a reason for this lack of evidence, and that reason is that there is absolutely no evidence or trends that even remotely suggest that we as a nation are headed or possibly headed towards acceptance or reverence of child rape.

Quote:
I merely stated that the path they ended up following to gain acceptance is now set... and it wouldn't surprise me if others will try to follow that same path.. because it worked.


That path was paved with reason. The question of "why can't homosexuals marry?" doesn't have a logical rebuttal. I fail to see how pedophilia would be able to take such a path.

Quote:
But I have a question, do you think the march toward more sexual openness, breaking down of sexual related barriers is over? Have we gone as far as we can go? If not, what do you see as the next frontier in the new sexual revolution?


I would say we're pretty close, yes. I can't think of too many puritanical or illogical injustices left on the horizon. One could argue polygamy, but that's an issue rooted in tax law more than anything else.

Quote:
At the same time, I've seen some of the responses when it's a hot female teacher of 28 and a 16 year old boy.... quite a few of the responses are "Where was that when I was in high school?" then they are followed with.. "sure it's illegal and wrong, but I bet he had bragging rights in the locker room" or some such comment. The thought of stoning her to death, never really comes up.


This is a fair point, but I think the attractiveness of the perpetrator plays a role. If we found that, say, Janet Reno was having sex with minors, I can't see too many people saying "I wish that was me".

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Originally Posted By: PrplPplEater


Wow I can't believe I hadn't heard or seen that one yet! That's awesome hahahaha...

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I would say that I understand the fear of why people may think this. However, I believe the evidence when it comes to minors flies in the face of it.

In our society, more and more issues have been made into law that protect minors. CPS and such agencies have been given more and more leeway to investigate anything and everything in conjunction to the welfare of children. Parents are held to a much higher standard in regards to not abusing their children. So much so, that many people believe they've become to strict and intrusive in that regard.

Every indication we have, suggests that children will be protected, not exploited when it comes to such issues.


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7 1/2 years in prison is a "year of Saturdays".

What I mean is, the first Saturday in prison is like January 1st.

Your second Saturday in prison is like January 2nd.

Your 53rd Saturday in prison is like February 22nd.

Your 189th Saturday in prison is like July 5th.

Your 273rd Saturday...

I'm deterred.

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Originally Posted By: clevesteve
First, I'm not trying to excuse his behavior. He is an adult and that is absolutely wrong. He must know better.

I am not defending him. There is no reason to. But YTBF asked a question of "How does a man consider young children to be sexual objects?" My guess is he took being unlikeable by/unattractive to girls his age in high school really hard and saw his weight loss as some kind of redemption thing, and got caught up in chasing away that image of himself, and it manifested in fulfilling sexual acts with girls from that time. It was 100% wrong, he should be punished for it, but as far as answering YTBF's question, that would be my guess.




That and it is a sickness for which there is no real treatment nor any interest in the public in finding a treatment. As I I said to people before, I don't think a person wakes up one day and decides to have sex with children. It's just a crossing of the wires. How do you explain canniblas, as an example?


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Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN

You aren't playing it both ways, you are basically agreeing with me.. for the most part, things that were once considered taboo, considered highly immoral, even illegal... and becoming acceptable and mainstream... which is exactly the point I've been arguing.


What you are doing is trying to bridge a gap that doesn't exist. You are trying to paint the slippery slope that our sexual freedoms will led to pedophilia in X number of years, and I'm illustrating the other ways in which we have progressed in our sexual freedoms. Do you believe that interracial marriage is part of the snowball to give us legal pedophilia?

The key factor you're leaving out in matters of sexual freedoms and "omg beastiality/pedophilia will be LEGAL!!#!11" is consent. A child is not old enough to give consent. A dog is not capable of giving consent. An adult man and adult woman can consent to each other. A white man and black woman can give consent to each other. Two men could give consent to each other. A man and a transgender woman can give consent to each other.


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Woman secretly recorded Jared Fogle's conversations, helped bring him down

(CNN)When Rochelle Herman first heard Jared Fogle's alleged off-color comments about young girls, she was so disturbed, she knew she had to do something, she said.

She recorded conversations with him for the FBI.

Fogle, a pitchman for Subway at the time, was attending a health event in Florida in 2007 when the incident occurred, Herman said.

Herman, who was a journalist at the time, was covering the event at a local school when Fogle made a random comment, she said.

"He told me that he thought middle school girls were so hot," Herman said. "I was in shock ... I actually was questioning, 'did I really just hear what I think I heard'? I looked over at my cameraman .... and he was just astounded," she said.

Years later, Fogle is planning to plead guilty to child pornography charges. His plea will include crossing state lines to pay for sex with minors, prosecutors said this week.

The plea deal would see him serve between five and 12½ years in prison -- from pitchman to sex offender -- in a stunning downfall partly initiated by Herman.

'He talked about' sex with minors
Herman saw Fogle numerous times over the years, and his comments and admissions got more brazen, she said.

"He talked about sex with underage children," she said. "It (sex with minors) was just something that he really, really enjoyed," she said.

Herman said she notified law enforcement authorities, and the FBI asked her to wear a wire to record her conversations with Fogle.

For years, she said, she worked undercover with authorities to gather evidence against Fogle.

"He trusted me for unknown reasons," Herman told CNN's "AC360." "He had said to me numerous times over the course of years about having sex with minors."

He got so comfortable with Herman, she said, he included her children in their conversations.

"I had two young children at the time, and he talked to me about installing hidden cameras in their rooms and asked me if I would choose which child I would like him to watch," she said.

'I had to play a role'
Although she was horrified by his suggestion, she focused on gathering evidence to put him behind bars.

"During the time that I had with the FBI, I had to play a role. I had to play a certain part in order for Jared to be able to trust me and talk further into detail," she said.

The U.S. Attorney's Office in Indianapolis, where Fogle was based, said Herman's information was part of the federal investigation into the former pitchman.

Tim Horty of the U.S. Attorney's Office said they also connected Fogle to alleged child pornography during their investigation into Russell Taylor.

Taylor, a former director of Fogle's charity that focuses on children's health, is facing child pornography charges as well. Authorities allege he shared images and videos of minors engaging in sexual conduct with Fogle.

Fogle will plead guilty to possessing and distributing child porn and to traveling across state lines to have sex with at least two teenage girls.

Attempting to make amends
Under the plea deal, the government will recommend less than 13 years in prison for Fogle. And his lawyers agree to ask the judge for no less than five years in prison.

Fogle, 37, will also pay restitution to the 14 victims who were secretly photographed or who he paid for sex. Each victim will get $100,000 to help with counseling, support and other assistance.

By admitting to the crimes, Fogle is accepting responsibility and attempting to make amends, his defense team said in a statement.

His lawyers said he is also undergoing examination by sexual conditions experts with a goal of becoming healthy.

No date has been set for his next court date, where he will formally enter a plea.

Fogle became a household name 15 years ago after he lost more than 200 pounds on what he described as the Subway diet. He became the face of the restaurant chain, appearing in ads nationwide.

Subway cut ties with him this week.


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Hmmmm, she recorded him for years? They couldn't get enough evidence after just one time? How many kids did he hurt during those "Years" they investigated?

Me no like this.

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Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Hmmmm, she recorded him for years? They couldn't get enough evidence after just one time? How many kids did he hurt during those "Years" they investigated?

Me no like this.


That's government efficiency for you.


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Originally Posted By: Swish
disgusting.


side note though: crazy how times have changed. barely 150 years ago, people were getting married as teens... or younger.


150 years ago you were considered an elder at 30 and your life expectancy was 39.5 years so they had to get married at 15, their life was half over.


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Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Hmmmm, she recorded him for years? They couldn't get enough evidence after just one time? How many kids did he hurt during those "Years" they investigated?

Me no like this.


Exactly...

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Quote:
I'm not asking for fact or proof. I merely asked for evidence or indication. The responses I've received thus far have included references to changing social attitudes towards divorce, homosexuality, transgender individuals, etc. None of which have anything to do with pedophilia.

I would argue that redefining being attracted to a minor as not a disorder is a step, I would argue that providing teenagers with free birth control through the public schools, lowering the age of consent, and allowing minors to have abortions without parental notification are all evidence that we are loosening our views on the sexual activity of minors.... everything beyond that is speculation. Moving on.

Quote:
That path was paved with reason. The question of "why can't homosexuals marry?" doesn't have a logical rebuttal. I fail to see how pedophilia would be able to take such a path.

Age of consent laws vary but what exactly is the logical rebuttal to a mature 15 year old having sex with a 20 year old through mutual consent?

Quote:
This is a fair point, but I think the attractiveness of the perpetrator plays a role. If we found that, say, Janet Reno was having sex with minors, I can't see too many people saying "I wish that was me".

Well when laws will be discussed, they can't just pass laws for the pretty people like you and me. tongue My only point was that we allow outside factors to influence just how "gross" we think pedophilia is... so we have already established a gray area to be exploited by those who wish to "normalize" this type of behavior...


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Former NFL cheerleader sentenced to probation for rape


GEORGETOWN, Del. – Former Baltimore Ravens cheerleader Molly Shattuck was sentenced Friday to two years of probation after pleading guilty to raping a 15-year-old boy at a vacation rental home in Delaware.

The 48-year-old collapsed to her knees in the courtroom after she was sentenced and wept as she apologized. Shattuck, who received a suspended 15-year prison sentence, must report every other weekend to a probation center in Delaware, register as a sex offender and continue therapy. The teen's parents said Shattuck stole their son's innocence and urged the judge to send her to prison to send a message to potential pedophiles.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/21/for...e/?intcmp=hpbt4

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Army kicking out decorated Green Beret who stood up for Afghan rape victim

EXCLUSIVE: The U.S. Army is kicking out a decorated Green Beret after an 11-year Special Forces career, after he got in trouble for shoving an Afghan police commander accused of raping a boy and beating up his mother when she reported the incident.

The case of Sgt. 1st Class Charles Martland now has the attention of Congress, with Rep. Duncan Hunter writing to Defense Secretary Ash Carter challenging the decision.

"I am once again dismayed by the Army's actions in this case," Hunter, R-Calif., wrote in a letter to Carter.

Martland is described by many of his teammates as the finest soldier they have ever served alongside.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2015/08/.../?intcmp=hplnws

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above:

"EXCLUSIVE: The U.S. Army is kicking out a decorated Green Beret after an 11-year Special Forces career, after he got in trouble for shoving an Afghan police commander accused of raping a boy and beating up his mother when she reported the incident."

Yeah that's a tough one. (if true) I would think the Green Beret would be more disciplined. I suspect there’s more to the story. (naturally)

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Looks like Jarad should have rented a vacation home in Delaware.


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Originally Posted By: 40YEARSWAITING
Former NFL cheerleader sentenced to probation for rape


GEORGETOWN, Del. – Former Baltimore Ravens cheerleader Molly Shattuck was sentenced Friday to two years of probation after pleading guilty to raping a 15-year-old boy at a vacation rental home in Delaware.

The 48-year-old collapsed to her knees in the courtroom after she was sentenced and wept as she apologized. Shattuck, who received a suspended 15-year prison sentence, must report every other weekend to a probation center in Delaware, register as a sex offender and continue therapy. The teen's parents said Shattuck stole their son's innocence and urged the judge to send her to prison to send a message to potential pedophiles.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/08/21/for...e/?intcmp=hpbt4

Why aren't the women's rights folks screaming for a sentence equal to Jarod's? smile


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- John Muir

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Great question.

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I don't see a Soldier getting kicked out merely because of a shove. There are guys who beat their wives and are still on active duty. The Army has invested way too much in this one man to get rid of him for that.

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Good points guys but I gotta say...

When I was 15 years old, if an NFL cheerleader crawled
on me....well...
I best just leave this one be.

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...when I was 15, if a 48yo anything would have crawled on me I'd have puked.


And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
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When I was 15, no cheerleader (of any age) would have approached me.

(I didn't get this suave, debonair and irresistible until much later.)


"too many notes, not enough music-"

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I had an older sister that had friends that crashed at our house. In the 50's they would have called it a sleep-over. I'll forever be grateful to my sisters friends, what great teenage years I had!


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Jared is extremely creepy.

There was one part of the article that left me wanting further clarification.

The reporter talks about Jared wanting to install a camera in one of her children's rooms. It says while she was horrified by the situation and was focused on putting him behind bars. Then, she says she had a play a role in order to gain further evidence to put him behind bars.

Did she put a camera in the room of one of her children?

The article doesn't say for sure that she did, but it sure insinuates it.

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Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Jared is extremely creepy.

There was one part of the article that left me wanting further clarification.

The reporter talks about Jared wanting to install a camera in one of her children's rooms. It says while she was horrified by the situation and was focused on putting him behind bars. Then, she says she had a play a role in order to gain further evidence to put him behind bars.

Did she put a camera in the room of one of her children?

The article doesn't say for sure that she did, but it sure insinuates it.


If she allowed that, I don't care what the cause was for, that's just disgusting.

What the "F" is wrong with people? Who would literally take time out of their day to watch footage from such a camera? Completely gross.

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