DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Why the NFL Has a Quarterback Crisis

Will you please stop?

I clearly talked about coverages. I talked about pre-snap reads. I talked about the speed of NFL defenses. I talked about how much more sophisticated they were. I talked about how the NFL coaches are the best in the world and thy do consider other options. I talked about why certain offenses work and how others dazzle early and then burn away. Etc, etc...........

You're looking for a fight. I'm not into it. So just stop, please.

We don't agree. No big deal. I just get a feeling you can't let it go at that. It's the ego thing.....

Right. I am genuinely curious as to why you think Kelly doesn't run the spread. Because he does and his offense has been very good. And it's in the NFL.



When you cannot successfully defend your point, resort to making yourself look like the bigger person so that the person challenging you will hopefully go away.

That is exactly what you are doing. I just listed a bunch of points I had already made. You don't like tab, but your posting style is very similar. You can't ever admit to making a mistake.

So how about this, cfrs.............you are absolutely right about everything you said in this thread and I am completely wrong about everything. Is that enough to make you go away?

All I want to know is why you said Chip Kelly's offense is not a spread offense.

Also, what is the mistake you are referring to?

You asked me why Farmer's comments were idiotic. I gave you an abbreviated list as to why I thought Farmer's comments were idiotic. I had went into more detail earlier in several posts.

You are itching for a fight. Why?

Could it be that ego of yours?

Are you prepared to say that every other coach mentioned in that article are just as idiotic? Because its not just Farmer and Pettine talking about this.

Of course NFL coaches are looking to innovate. That's the most ridiculous understatement ever.

What he's not talking about trying to create the next best offensive scheme... he (and the they) are talking about looking at the QB position in a new way. I'm not so sure how or why that qualifies as idiotic? Its not like there's no precedent for it. The article does mention the CB position. Also look at the RB position. Not 10yrs ago every team was looking for that franchise RB, 1 guy to carry the workload. Since then, a number of teams have "devalued" the RB position and gone with the RB by committee approach.

Right. You said the spread doesn't work. I said that the one team that does run the spread has a very good offense. You [falsely] claimed the Eagles the don't run the spread. I asked you why you think that. The reasoning is this; if the Eagles run the spread, then it proves that it is possible to run the spread successfully in the NFL. Thus, your first first point is also false.

The NFL as a whole has been shifting to more of a spread offense for years. There are more and more single backfield and empty backfield sets. There are hardly any true FB's left in the NFL. More TE's, RB's and HB's are shifting wide to give that extra WR look. There are more single read quick delivery passes. More shotgun plays. More no huddle plays outside of the 2 min warning. Rather than college coaches adapting to the NFL game, I think college coaches are ahead of the curve on this one. You can create lots of personnel mismatches with the spread system.

If I'm facing a defense like Pettine's, I would be running a lot of spread. I'd run no-huddle and not let him run all the substitutions on his defense that he likes to do. I'd wear those 300 lb, high motor lineman out. I'd put a TE wide on Hayden and tell him to play physical all game. I'd run a lot of single read passes so Gipson can't play center field. I'd run a lot of read option plays because our OLB's tend to get sucked in and forget to box against the run.

The game is always evolving. Nobody runs the triple wing in the NFL anymore or the 46 defense, but they worked before and could work again if they create mismatches against personnel designed to stop other systems. Coaches then adapt to those systems and we evolve again. I heard many coaches over the years say "It really doesn't matter what play you call, if everybody does their job on that particular play, it will be effective."

As far as the spread not working, it seemed to work fine when the Patriots had Randy Moss and they ran it. RG3 did fine with it in his first year. Miami seems to doing okay with the spread plays in their playbook. The greatest show on turf was a spread offense. The old Run and Shoot was pretty spread-like. Not to mention all the pistol plays NFL coaches are putting in their playbooks.

Now whether the spread will change the game as much as the West Coast offense did remains to be seen, but coaches will have various amounts of success with it at least for a while before we evolve again.

You are assuming that you have that 1 franchise QB. Chip seems to be having success with just about anybody he puts behind center so far.

If you are choosing QB's with a different skill set from the other 31 NFL teams, you can often find replacements pretty easy.

I'm not saying that will happen in the NFL, but franchise RB's used to be pretty important in the NFL, and now most NFL teams find their starters in the mid rounds of the draft or among the cast offs.

j/c

I don't get how some are defining a spread offense. Spread doesn't mean passing. It simply means stretching the width of your offensive formation. Theory, as best as I understand, is it forces LBs to cover a wider distance. You can run and pass from it.

QBs play back from the center because it is easier to read the defense. They usually run the ball to lure the LBs before handing off to a RB going in a different direction or toss the ball to a receiver where the defender left vacant. Speed is cornerstone in running a spread offense.

In college, most teams don't have the player talent/speed to combat it. In the NFL, you can't expand the width you leave to big a gap between lineman. Speed is prevalent in the NFL.

In my opinion, spread offense will never translate to the NFL. There are concepts you can translate, but the overall scheme is to simplistic, and QBs stand a high risk getting hurt. Nearest thing to a spread offense is "wildcat."

Reason teams are adding more receivers is the advantage they have being untouchable after five yards. It does not mean they are introducing spread offense.

Then why have the Eagles been so successful on offense under Chip Kelly?

Why do you think Kelly only runs a Spread Offense?

Chip's claim to fame is mostly raising and lowering tempo. Kelly's NFL offense resembles mostly the WCO. It is why Shurmur is the OC, and why Bradford the preferred QB? Bradford's best season was his rookie season under Shurmur. Kelly's offense differs from the normal WCO is he uses run game more than short pass.

oops......

I respect your opinion bugs, but the spread has little to do with line splits in today's game. Look at Ohio State's line splits. They are pretty similar to what you see in the NFL. And as far as defensive players being too fast for wide line splits, you can counter any fast defensive player with an offensive player that is just as fast. They both have to cover the same space.

Where the spread comes in is by spreading out defenders that would potentially be in the box. Teams focus on having a majority of their passing plays in a situation where there are only 6 or 7 defenders in the box. You do this by having more empty backfields and 1 back sets. When you force LB's to cover, they can't blitz. You also put a LB in a position where he first has to make sure the RB isn't getting the ball on a running play and then switch to pass coverage on the same RB because all the other defenders have assignments. That same LB has to be careful that the QB doesn't follow the RB through the same hole while the LB is backpedaling trying to cover the pass.

Your DE/OLB's have to outside contain even more because WR routes and positions are designed to pull the CB farther away from the spot of the ball. If your DE/OLB cheats, you'll get killed by the read option.

These concepts are already being used in the NFL and I don't see any other spread concept that wouldn't work. Chip is already running the spread and BB is running a spread/WC hybrid. Miami and Pittsburgh are running more and more spread plays. More and more teams are zone blocking. (including us) It's already happening. Will we come to the day where franchise QB's are obsolete? I don't know, but it is possible.

The Eagles run more plays then anyone else, they rarely slow down the tempo. They also run a ton of read option, packaged plays, and plays where there is a predetermined play call based on the defense's alignment. They also run their over 90% of their plays out of the shotgun, something no West Coast Offense team would ever do (traditonal West Offense coordinators like Kubiak have QBs under center much more). Furthermore, they run more zone reads than any other team.

Shurmur is the Eagles offensive coordinator in name only. No one really knows what he does and he definitely doesn't call plays or come up with the offensive gameplan.

Philadelphia acquired Bradford for several reasons. First, he has a very quick release and is very accurate. Both of those things play well in Kelly's offense. Second, Kelly thinks he can keep players healthy with the way he manages the team. Third, Kelly views Bradford as a potential franchise QB. Fourth, Bradford ran the spread very successfully in college.

Of course the Eagles incorporate elements of other successful offenses (just like every other team in the NFL), but the basis of what they do is the spread and everything else builds off of that.

Tempo + shotgun + zone read + packaged plays + predetermined reads = spread

j/c:

This thread got ruined by cfrs and a couple of others.

If anyone thinks that Philly's qbs don't read coverages and have to go through progressions, like some of the college teams do, they are freaking nuts.

People are twisting words around to make themselves look good. They are only making themselves look confrontational and ignorant of what is going on w/college and NFL offenses.

One poster brought up a great point. He said that perhaps some qbs should go to colleges where they run a pro offense to help prepare them for the NFL. I agree. And that is why that out of all the qbs that have come out in recent years, I have liked Luck and Teddy the most.

I think people need to go back to the original article and reread it. Carefully. There aren't tons of coaches agreeing w/Farmer. There's one. Snead. Another dolt. Gase said something that almost exactly paralleled what I was trying to say about Kelly's offense.

Quit trying to belittle and act like you are all-knowing and try learning.

Priceless.

Vers, you just don't see it, do you? You don't see that you do exactly what it is you rail against.

But does Philadelphia run the spread?

You are assuming that owners wouldn't like to see QB salaries more in line with other positions. You are also assuming that a QB for 3-4-5 years wouldn't work in the NFL.

You are also assuming that the NCAA is at some point going to start turning out drop back QB like they did in the 70's.

Unless the NFL starts to develope young players with a minor league system of sorts, drop back QBs are going to be few and far between. The easiest way to win in youth football, HS football, and colege football is to have a QB who can read option and run the ball.

Sorry man, they aren't going to change because the NFL doesn't have enough QB's.

Not selling out to the scheme and not running the scheme are not the same thing.

I totally disagree Kelly is using a total spread offense scheme. Look at Oregon's or THE Ohio State's alignment compare it to Philly. Just so you know, Kelly's game is built around the run. There are plenty of articles stating such.

On a side note, you are kidding yourself thinking Shurmur is not running and designing Philly's offense. You may not like as a HC, but Shurmur is a pretty dang good OC. Linehan is another who gets tossed on the heap because of pour head coaching.

Empty backfield and one RB isn't something new. Dickerson ran it back in the 80-90's long before the spread.

Getting the LBs to cover RBs and TEs, again, isn't something new. Go back and look at the WCO and why it was designed. What you're describing is the WCO concept short quick passes to counter 7-8 box for a weak armed QB.

Again there are concepts of the spread used in today's NFL. No one is running the spread offense. If you don't believe, do a little research. Spread is a very simplistic concept.

Oh, I agree nothing is changing. Minor leagues are proven nonprofitable too. NFL teams will either need to learn to develop QBs quickly or invest time. Otherwise, they must advise a scheme that diminishes the role of the QB.

Like all things the pendulum swings. Teams put all their effort into solving one riddle it begins to favor another. Million dollar question has it swung far enough for teams to tinker in another direction? If people are starting to talk about, I'd say some are already focusing on it.

What a great topic! There is obvious no right or wrong answer to this question. It is like any good debate pros and cons!

You really think Kelly, a control freak of epic proportions, is letting someone else run his offense? I find that very hard to believe.

Didn't Pettine say something to this effect concerning McCown not so long ago...

I am sure Kelly is adding his two cents! Shurmur is an x's and o's guy not a leader. Kelly has way to much on his plate to deal with details. Think Belichick!

When Shurmur was the OC here in St. Louis, Bradford's rookie year, he made a offense with less talent than Browns have today work. Bradford looked the first pick in the draft. You do recall Holmgren didn't put up much a fight when Shurmur wanted to be HC an OC? I really thought Holmgren was going to step in as HC and Shurmur OC.

Yes!

From a technical stand point, I am very curious how this offense functions. Even on this board fans are split. It really is a battle of "glass half full" vs "glass half empty" thinkers.

Sam Rutigliano brought the passing game to Cleveland. Granted Sam had Warfield and Newsome and both Pruits. Defenses couldn't cover everyone. I think Farmer is building in this direction. He is designing an offense that overwhelms with numbers not necessarily great but efficient. Sam didn't have the worlds greatest arm QB. Brian Sipe was very average athletically. Brian knew the game and read defenses well.

If McCown can get comfortable trusting his OL and learns to win the war rather than the battle, I think McCown can run an offense like Sipe. Sipe was very smart. McCown is not even in the ball park there, but McCown must learn to run the offense in a similar matter. If Manziel continues growing, I think he can be better than McCown, because he has more athletic talent.

I really hope Farmer drawls a line in the sand building around McCown and Manziel. Concentrate more upgrading the pieces around these two. This offense needs an identity, foundation, and cornerstone. Right now offense is totally unknown. It is why people struggle giving it any praise.

First off all no NFL team is running a pure version of any offensive scheme. Every team puts their own spin on any scheme that they run and mix and match plays from other schemes. There are as many versions of the spread in college as there are blocking sleds. Urban Meyer alone has probably ran at least a half dozen different versions of it.

I'll let you look at some of the plays from Philly's playbook and you tell me what type of plays these are.

Check it out here

As far as being a simplistic concept, in some cases yes and in others, it's even more complex than most NFL schemes. Again, there are tons of variations of the spread. You mentioned earlier that the spread is built on the run, but the "Air Raid" version of the spread is about 80 percent passing. Spread concepts have been in the NFL for years and more and more of those concepts will be integrated as the years go by.

You'll know when they are making an impact when NFL defenses start showing 3-3-5 looks and 4-2-5 looks.

I think this article is silly. Right now, we see QB's progressing within NFL systems just fine. Bortles, Bridgewater, Carr, Tannehill.

I don't see the NFL changing everything around just because they have to develop their QB's. They're developing fine right now. You just have to know how to identify the right QB in the draft.

Chart: The evolution of the passing game

SEPTEMBER 12, 2015 — 5:11PM
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Passing game through the years



April 6, 1906: Player safety concerns in 1905 led President Teddy Roosevelt to pressure the rules committee governing college football to make changes. One of those changes came on this date when the forward pass was legalized. The pro game at the time took its rules from college football.



Sept. 5, 1906: St. Louis University’s Bradbury Robinson threw the first forward pass in a game, according to Wikipedia, citing multiple sources. The ball fell incomplete, which, per rules of the time, was a turnover.



Oct. 25, 1906: According to the Professional Football Researchers Association, via author Robert W. Peterson, George Parratt of the Massillon (Ohio) Tigers completed the first professional football pass to Dan Policowski for a short gain in a 61-0 Ohio League victory over a team from West Virginia.



Feb. 25, 1933: After 13 seasons following rules for the college game, the NFL made a number of significant rules changes to set itself apart. One of them legalized the forward pass from anywhere behind the line of scrimmage. Up to that point, passes had to be made at least 5 yards behind the line of scrimmage.



Dec. 8, 1940: The modern passing game really began to evolve on this date when the Bears used the T-formation to defeat the Redskins 73-0 in the NFL title game. The T-formation, which essentially identified a single player to line up behind center and be the primary passer, was popularized by the most lopsided game in NFL history.



Jan. 20, 1950: The NFL adopted unlimited free substitutions, which meant the quarterback no longer had to play defense. A month earlier, the league agreed to accept three All-America Football Conference teams, including the Cleveland Browns, coached by Paul Brown, one of the most influential figures and offensive minds in NFL history. The Browns won the NFL title in their first year.



March 17, 1978: Wholesale changes to the rules are made to bust down key defensive barriers and lay the foundation for the passing explosion we see today. Credit or blame Pittsburgh’s Steel Curtain defense for being the final impetus for the changes. Among the rules, defenders were restricted from making contact with receivers beyond 5 yards of the line of scrimmage. Offensive linemen also were permitted to extend their arms and use open hands to pass protect legally.



1984: Dolphins quarterback Dan Marino became the first NFL quarterback to surpass 5,000 passing yards in a season (5,084). That total has been passed five times since 2011.



2004: Determined to keep the passing game wide open, the league decided to make pass interference rules a point of emphasis. It wouldn’t be the last of the tweaks favoring passing.



2005: Colts QB Peyton Manning set NFL records with 49 touchdowns and a 121.1 passer rating, which broke the mark of 112.8 by Steve Young in 1994.



2007: Patriots quarterback Tom Brady pushed the touchdown mark to 50, while Saints quarterback Drew Brees completed a record 440 passes.



2010: Safety rules were expanded and implemented to protect defenseless receivers, which opened up the passing game even further.



2011: Packers quarterback Aaron Rodgers set the single-season record for passer rating (122.5), and Brees set the mark for yards passing (5,476).



2013: Manning, now with the Broncos, set the record for touchdown passes (55) and yards passing (5,477). Brees topped 5,000 yards for the fourth time in six years.



2014: For the second year in a row, NFL QBs combined to set records for completion percentage (.626), passer rating (88.9) and passing TDs (807).

http://www.startribune.com/chart-the-evolution-of-the-passing-game/327123951/

That's crazy! I never knew that.

the only QB crisis is in Cleveland

One of these things is not like other. . .

There is only one QB on that list that has done anything and that's Tannehill and that's AFTER a wake up call of nearly being benched in his third year. Will be interesting to see how this year pans out for him.

Bortles is the second worst rookie QB of the last 10 years...second only to Gabbert.

Carr won three games last year and showed no more than Weeden his rookie year. We all know how that turned out.

Bridgewater showed promise apparently....I say apparently because when I watched him early last season he played it very safe, showed an average arm, and could have been labeled Captain Checkdown. Apparently he got better as the season (did not catch a lot of his later games) progressed but we still need to see how he does this year.

There was nothing silly about the article. Using those four guys as an example to state the article is silly is a huge stretch.

You might wish to look at rookie seasons from greats like Favre and Peyton Manning to see that those four aren't really behind the curve. Accept for maybe Tannehill.

And Mariota just threw five TD's in his first start too.

So you're assuming all four of those guys will be good? Or 3 of the 4? Or 2 of the 4?

Hopefully, you'll give Browns players a chance to develop like you seem to want to do with other team's players.

I try to look at things in the here and now. Both for our players and players around the league.

You can state the record of the Oakland Raiders if you wish. But Carr played pretty well. Will he end up being a great QB? I have no idea. Same goes for Bridgewater. He was 6-6 in 12 starts last year with respectable numbers. Does that make him a great QB? Not necessarily. Mariota threw 5 TD's in his first game. Does that mean he'll be a franchise QB? Who knows.

But here's what it does mean. It means they are taking college QB's and making them effective in pro systems. It means they're making the transition to the pro game. It's not like they're lost with that deer in the headlights look as this article would have you believe.

No matter the QB, you have to have the talent needed to succeed at the pro level. You only need the ability to learn the pro system quickly to translate from the NCAA to the pro game. While these QB's may not ever have the God given ability to be great, they have learned the pro system to the point they have the ability to lead their teams and show more production that most average journeymen QB's in the NFL.

And to that end, that shows the inaccuracy of the article.