DawgTalkers.net
Posted By: mac The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/07/16 12:32 PM

Cleveland Browns sign Anthony Fabiano to active roster

by Thomas Moore1 day ago
link


The Cleveland Browns made a pair of roster moves on Monday, signing Anthony Fabiano to the active roster and Zach Sterup to the practice squad.

The Cleveland Browns continued the offensive line churn on Monday, signing offensive lineman Anthony Fabiano to the active roster from the team’s practice squad.

In a related move, the Browns signed offensive lineman Zach Sterup to the practice squad after seeing the Carolina Panthers sign offensive lineman Dan France off of Cleveland’s practice squad.

The moves were announced on the team’s website.

The 6-foot-3 and 303-pound Fabiano originally signed with the Baltimore Ravens as a free agent out of Harvard. (So no surprise how the Browns heard about him.) A versatile player, he made 29 starts for the Crimson along the offensive line, with 11 starts at left tackle, 10 at right guard, seven at left guard and one at right tackle.

According to his draft profile at NFL.com, Fabiano is an “athletic player who opened some eyes at his pro day with his speed and quickness. Quick lateral movement off the snap and can gain ground quickly to challenge on cross­-face blocks. Plays with desired bend and decent hand work. Draft stock could benefit from experience playing at multiple spots along the offensive line.”

Normally the promotion of a player from the practice squad to the active roster would cause a very minor ripple. But with the attrition rate along the offensive line this season – the Browns have already lost starting guards Joel Bitonio and John Greco, along with center Austin Reiter, to season-ending injuries; and had Cameron Erving miss games with an injury – it would not be a complete surprise to see Fabiano on the field as early as Sunday’s game against the Cincinnati Bengals.

And it was not that long ago that safety Ed Reynolds was biding his time on the practice squad and now he is a stabilizing presence in the secondary.

As for Sterup, the 6-foot-9 and 318-pound lineman was originally signed by the Kansas City Chiefs as an undrafted free agent out of Nebraska, where he started 17 games. He worked in training camp at both left and right tackle with the Chiefs and spent time this season on the practice squads of both the Chiefs and New York Jets.

I'm wondering, we gonna see Cam Erving playing at RT?
Posted By: Dawgs4Life Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/07/16 01:05 PM
Perhaps. I thought he moved around a bit this offseason. IMO, we have to find SOME way for Erving to be productive .... even if it's as a swing man backup
Posted By: mac Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/07/16 01:20 PM
To be honest, Erving was never a center in college. He was moved to center for the final 5 games of his college career due to OLine injuries. Erv was a 3 year starter at LT for Florida State.

The front office needs to find out if he is capable of starting anywhere on the OLine..or is trade bait or simply backup material?

Start him at RT and see how he does over the last 4 games.
Posted By: Swish Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/07/16 02:51 PM
http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_...factory-sadness


this article....man....i really feel bad for this dude.
Posted By: Bard Dawg Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/07/16 03:44 PM
How about bench anchor? He has stunk it up too long at center.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/07/16 03:49 PM
I was going to make a thread, but this seems as good a place as any to put this.

http://www.nfl.com/labs/sidelines/oline/desktop/offensive-lines.html

It's an article about the decline of offensive line play lately. Many of the things mentioned in there are things we regularly debate here (time to gel, practice time, $$$ to retain talent, etc). The thing I didn't see mention, which is interesting, is other positions talent/play affecting how the o-line performs.

They highlight Dallas, which isn't surprising, but they don't really go into a whole bunch of detail on the teams that (allegedly) don't have very good lines. They do mention how catastrophic injuries are the o-line, in that backups don't have many reps coming in, affecting the overall play of the whole line/offense.
Posted By: eotab Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/07/16 04:38 PM
I'm wondering, we gonna see Cam Erving playing at RT?

Pasztor has not been a failure around game 6 he started playing better. Possibly if that Reuter guy wins the Center position they will look at Erving at RT...but right now the last two games Erving has made some good steps forward at the Center position.

jmho...I will never object to a slobber knocker kick butt OL man taken in the draft but I don't think its a priority for this teams needs.
Posted By: HotBYoungTurk Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/07/16 04:56 PM
if Cam Robinson is there when we pick with our second 1st round pick. I say we grab him.
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/07/16 05:04 PM
I think some of our posters are too quick to judge. Our young players need time to develop like other teams players do. I want this team to win badly like everyone else but I'm willing to give it time. Some of our young guys are improving, albeit slowly, but they are making progress. If we have a solid draft in '17 and sign a FA or 2 we could really see a positive difference next year.
Posted By: waterdawg Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/07/16 05:56 PM
Pasztor can play at rg or lg and be just fine .. We have him, Greco and Bitonio , all fine Guards .. We are desperate for a Starting RT and Center ..
Posted By: ThatGuy Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/07/16 06:22 PM
If our QBs would stop holding onto the ball for 10 seconds our line wouldn't look as bad..
Posted By: HotBYoungTurk Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/07/16 06:35 PM
Originally Posted By: ThatGuy
If our QBs would stop holding onto the ball for 10 seconds our line wouldn't look as bad..


what about when we run the ball? RB's get hit as soon as the ball is handed off.
Posted By: mac Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/07/16 06:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Swish
http://www.espn.com/espn/feature/story/_...factory-sadness


this article....man....i really feel bad for this dude.


Originally Posted By: oobernoober
I was going to make a thread, but this seems as good a place as any to put this.

http://www.nfl.com/labs/sidelines/oline/desktop/offensive-lines.html

It's an article about the decline of offensive line play lately. Many of the things mentioned in there are things we regularly debate here (time to gel, practice time, $$$ to retain talent, etc). The thing I didn't see mention, which is interesting, is other positions talent/play affecting how the o-line performs.



Swish...oober...Both, excellent articles that everyone needs to read to better understand the importance of a team's offensive line.

Also, when teams find an OLine coach who works well with your group of OLineman, YOU KEEP HIM. Andy Moeller did a good job with the Browns then got into some off the field problems and was fired. From the time he left, the Browns oline has struggled, imo.

Hal Hunter is in his first year with the Browns, but with the group OLinemen he inherited, it has been a rough road, getting them to play well, together. Injuries have been an issue, but that will happen, regardless. It is one of the reasons a team must keep some quality backups, capable of stepping in, when needed.

Hunter has over 30 yrs of experience coaching the OLine but only 10 yrs at the Pro level..that is not a long time. Mark Hutson is the Browns assistant OLine coach and he has 3 yrs experience at the NFL level but does have 12 yrs experience at the college level.

It will help if the Browns OLine if they have some continuity in the coaching staff.
Posted By: ThatGuy Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/07/16 06:59 PM
Originally Posted By: HotBYoungTurk
Originally Posted By: ThatGuy
If our QBs would stop holding onto the ball for 10 seconds our line wouldn't look as bad..


what about when we run the ball? RB's get hit as soon as the ball is handed off.


If I'm a DC playing the Browns, I would put everything into playing the run.

And if we do happen to be passing, just triple cover Pryor and wait, because eventually after about 5-6 seconds, the QB will still be holding the ball, and no lineman should be asked to hold the ball that long..

The same thing happened when Shanahan was here, with Hoyer.

We got some bad injuries on the line, people keyed in the run, and our QB was never able to take advantage of it.

I know I'm over simplifying it.

But you out Tom Brady back there, and our line looks a lot better, so do our WRs, and then our running game would benefit..
Posted By: keithfromxenia Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/07/16 07:26 PM
home wood, i think you make an excellent point that fits nicely with something Mac said. truth is cam i think played very few games at center in college. his first year with us they tried to make him a jack of all trades lineman so he did little to improve his mastery of the center position. he may just need more time to develop his technique and strength to be a decent center. given all our glaring needs i would not draft a center high unless he is bpa at that point.
Posted By: Vambo Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 01:31 AM
The offensive line is as important as ever in today's game -- so why is it so hard to build a good one?

Link


THE 2010 SEASON had just ended with a 6-10 record and Tony Romo's arm in a sling, the quarterback nursing a shattered clavicle. The Dallas Cowboys knew what they had to do.

The team historically had good offensive lines, populated by Pro Bowlers like Flozell Adams and Andre Gurode and Hall of Famer Larry Allen. But those players were aging out of the NFL -- if they weren't already gone -- and the Cowboys were paying a price with Romo's health. Determined to both keep the franchise quarterback upright and run the ball more efficiently to make life easier on him, the team's brain trust decided to invest in the offensive line.

With the ninth overall draft pick in 2011, the Cowboys made tackle Tyron Smith the first offensive lineman selected. Two years later, they grabbed center Travis Frederick in the first round, at No. 31 overall. A year after that, with Jerry Jones repeatedly pressing his draft room about the prospect of taking quarterback Johnny Manziel, the Cowboys held firm and selected guard Zack Martin at No. 16. There was a gasp in the green room at Radio City Music Hall that night, because the decision meant that Manziel, who seemed then to be the perfect fit for a team comfortable with glitz and headlines, would continue his plummet down the board.

It said something equally meaningful about the Cowboys.

America's Team had gone to the trenches.

*************************

FIVE YEARS after Smith became the first cornerstone, the Cowboys are 11-1 and have the game's most highly touted offensive line.

The plan put in place in the spring of 2011 has worked almost to the letter, with one unanticipated wrinkle. That line is protecting rookie quarterback Dak Prescott, who took over when Romo suffered his latest injury in the preseason. Prescott has played with such poise -- undoubtedly benefitting from the amount of time he has to make decisions in the pocket -- that a healthy Romo is now the backup. And the line is opening gaping holes for the league's leading rusher, rookie Ezekiel Elliott.

"That line came together quick," said Stephen Jones, the Cowboys' chief operating officer and director of player personnel. "It's certainly the centerpiece of this team. It's been a journey. I know we're glad we took the leap of faith and went down that road of doing the thing that is not necessarily the sexy thing to do."

It's not an easy thing to do, either. The league is littered with threadbare offensive lines -- shredded by injury or incompetence -- even on contending teams. The Panthers and Broncos, last year's Super Bowl teams, have two of the worst offensive lines in the league. The Vikings, who used five different starting-line combinations in their first nine games, are 6-6.

NFL.com Research created a system for ranking the league's offensive lines in four telling categories: rushing yards before contact per attempt, rushing yards per carry, quarterback hits allowed and sacks per pass play. By adding together their league-wide rankings in each category, it is easy to determine which are the best and worst. After the Week 13 games, with one month to go in the regular season, the rankings are no surprise.



The five best offensive lines are in Tennessee, Dallas, Pittsburgh, Green Bay and Oakland -- all teams in the thick of playoff races, with all but Green Bay leading or tied for the best record in their divisions. And the five lowest-ranked lines are in Indianapolis, Tampa Bay, Denver, Los Angeles and Minnesota. Indianapolis and Tampa Bay are tied for the best records in their divisions. The rest trail.

The takeaway: There are precious few offensive lines so good they can push a team to the playoffs, and there are many more that are so middling, their organizations must work around them to avoid being shoved backward in the standings.

That is ironic, because with scoring approaching its all-time high, the premium on having a solid offensive line should be similarly soaring. Back in 2009, Eric DeCosta, now the Ravens' assistant general manager, said that when the Giants used a ferocious pass rush to upset the undefeated Patriots in Super Bowl XLII, it served as a wake-up call for the league -- a reminder that teams, even ones as explosive as that Patriots group was, have no chance to win if they can't protect the quarterback. (The Ravens took tackle Ronnie Stanley with the sixth overall pick this year.) But players, coaches and general managers point to a confluence of factors that they believe has made unearthing -- and then developing -- NFL offensive linemen more difficult than it has ever been, with the erratic results on Sundays to prove it.

"Do I believe it's any worse? Yeah," said LeCharles Bentley, a former guard and center for the New Orleans Saints who now trains college and NFL linemen at his Arizona-based O-Line Performance center. "Yes, frankly, the level of play in certain pockets has decreased, but the caveat to that is the demands of the schemes of what you're asking players to do is a bit more complex than it ever has been, as well. What we're asking players to do from a physical and, even more so, a mental standpoint ... It's a challenge."

After conversations with 20 players, coaches and general managers starting in training camp and stretching through the season, several common hurdles -- from when teams first start scouting college players to when those players become high-priced veterans and are sent packing -- emerged as the ones that might most be impeding offensive lines. Not even the game's most precious resource provides a sure safety net for teams trying for an upgrade. In a period spanning six drafts, the Rams used two No. 2 overall draft picks (in 2009 and 2014) on offensive tackles and still have one of the worst offensive lines in the league. Jason Smith ('09) lasted just three years with the Rams and is now out of the league entirely. Greg Robinson ('14) has been called for 22 enforced penalties in the last two years, the most of any offensive player during that span. He was a healthy scratch in Week 12, then returned in Week 13 -- and, yes, incurred a holding penalty that backed the Rams up from the doorstep of the red zone on one of their longest drives of the day.


WHEN HUDSON HOUCK, the Cowboys' former offensive line coach, was scouting the available tackles for the 2011 NFL Draft -- Nate Solder and Anthony Castonzo were available that year, in addition to Smith -- he leaned heavily on his contacts at the University of Southern California, where both he and Smith had played, for inside information. Houck believes the physical attributes of a lineman are not as important as the mental (although he raved about the advantages of Smith's 36-inch arm reach).

Is the player smart enough? Can he learn? What kind of attitude does he have? Is he a team player, and how much passion does he have for football?

The offensive line is a team within the team, making those qualities especially important.

One NFL team's offensive line coach, who asked that his name not be used because he did not want to be thought to be criticizing football, believes there is a fundamental shortfall of offensive linemen because bigger, athletic young men are drifting toward basketball instead. The coach thinks this is due to the fact that basketball is easier and cheaper to play than football.

"It's hard to find an Orlando Pace, a Joe Thomas, an Alex Mack, go right down the list," the coach said. "It's becoming less and less that high-end, spectacular guy."

Those who are playing, though, are ever more likely to be in a spread offense in college, which makes evaluating them for the NFL more difficult and places an emphasis on the ability to learn. When the spread's hold on colleges was first being felt, O-line coaches like Cincinnati's Paul Alexander would watch only goal-line plays of college linemen, because it was the only time they run-blocked. College tackles rarely have a hand in the ground, and they are not used to a quarterback taking anything more than a very short, quick drop.

"Colleges have to do what they have to do to win games," Steelers general manager Kevin Colbert said. "It is more of a projection. You have to look at them in a different vein. If kids are coming from a spread offense, they have to learn to play from a three-point stance. If they have the raw athleticism, they'll get it, but it will take a little longer."

Said Willie Colon, a former offensive lineman for the Steelers and Jets: "I've watched guys come in with the footwork of a high schooler. I went to Hofstra. I played spread and stood up, and when I got to Pittsburgh, it was such a transition, putting my hand in the dirt, keeping my head up. I had Russ Grimm, one of the original 'Hogs.' (The Hall of Fame lineman was the Steelers' offensive-line coach in 2006, Colon's rookie year.) He cracked me up and stitched me together again."

The lack of bountiful college tape also has placed a premium on the individual workouts that teams put players through before the draft. Mike Munchak, the Hall of Fame lineman who currently coaches the position for the Steelers, said it can sometimes be refreshing to get college players who don't already have bad habits, but he admits it makes him nervous to have so little evidence at hand when trying to decide among several prospects. Bentley works to ready some of those players, for workouts and then for their first training camps. In some cases, Bentley is teaching the rudiments of the position.

"You're starting from ground zero," Bentley said. "You're teaching how to get into a proper stance. Then you get into the nuances of how to move your body. There is so much ground to cover, it's almost impossible to get a player up to speed by the time they get to training camp. It hasn't become innate yet. Players have a high tendency to go native once they get backed into a high-energy environment. You have to go, 'No, no, Johnny -- you can't do that.' By the time you're done talking about the technical aspect, players are thrown a playbook."

THE LEARNING CURVE is steep even for the top prospects. David DeCastro was an All-American guard from Stanford when the Steelers took him in the first round in 2012. He is a Pro Bowler now, but he said it took him at least a year, maybe two, before he understood how to use a defensive lineman's techniques to his own advantage.

"It's a whole different game," DeCastro said. "Whether it's your hands, in college, you get away with mauling people. In the NFL, you can't do that. There is a lot more technique to it."

And there is a lot less practice time to teach it. When the current collective bargaining agreement was completed five years ago, it included significant reductions in both in-season and out-of-season practices, in an attempt to reduce injuries and improve player safety. Gone are old-fashioned two-a-days during training camp and most contact during regular-season game preparation. Ask a general manager about O-line play and he points to ill-prepared college players. Ask a coach, though, and he says that practice-time restrictions impact the offensive line more than any other position -- not just the starters, but the backups.

"It's hard to teach or develop the offensive line without contact," Munchak said. "They, unlike any other player, will have contact on every snap. That's one reason why we choose to have physical camp, because there is no way to mimic it. When it is legal, we try to maximize those opportunities. Back in the past, when I played or when I started coaching, you had guys I could work with in April, May, June, then you have two-a-days. Those guys got a lot of reps. Their development was way ahead of where it is today."

Munchak said it is particularly problematic for young players further down the depth chart, who get precious few practice repetitions, making the drop-off all the more glaring if more than one or two starters gets hurt. According to Munchak, in a typical training-camp practice, the starters get 25 to 30 repetitions in live 11-on-11 settings. The second team gets 18 to 20. The youngest players get 10 to 12. He does not want veterans to have to practice more, but he wonders if having a second practice for younger players in camp would be helpful, to get them more work so that the drop-off is not as steep.

"You get two or three injuries, you can't find guys," Munchak said. "Offensive line, they're the ones that get punished more than anybody by the rule changes."

Ali Marpet, the Bucs' second-year guard who came from Division III Hobart, said his head spun from the volume of information thrown at him when he arrived. He needed work on run-blocking, on keeping his balance. Still, he does not think more full-contact practice is necessary.

"You need to learn to practice without the thud," he said. "If you're banging heads every practice every day, it's going to slow you down by the end of the season."

Alexander, in Cincinnati, does not yearn for the old days, either. He recalls them -- the two-a-days, in full pads, every day until training camp ended. He also recalls that when he worked for the Jets, they played a game against the Eagles when Buddy Ryan was the coach and Philly had a full padded practice the morning of the game. He doesn't know if more players got hurt then than now, but he also believes enough teaching can be done in the classroom to make up for it.

"We have so many OTA practices and offseason programs that if you can't get it taught in all those practices, something's wrong," Alexander said. "I think you have gone through it in the classroom, you've walked through it, things are done right more often. There is more value in doing something right."

Still, Stephen Jones, who sits on the Competition Committee, concedes limited practice time presents a challenge. And he said changing the practice restrictions is something the committee will debate.

"Obviously, it is very sensitive with the players," Jones said. "There are probably some things you can do to make it better. Players have to be trusting coaches aren't going to abuse it. There is probably a middle ground that could be good. There's no question teams and coaches wish they had more time with the players, it's just a matter that coaches aren't going to take it too far. Ninety percent of people do it right. Then you have some outliers that abuse it and then you have a problem on your hands. That's what we have to figure out: How do we prevent abuse of overworking players but at the same time getting work in to develop these young players?"

That is a possible solution to one of the concerns with the offensive line. But there is another issue -- the lack of continuity on lines -- that seems more intractable in today's game. For no other unit in football is cohesion as important, with each player on a line having to know what the others are doing for the blocking to be successful. It is a key reason why coaches argue that they need more practice time with the offensive line and it is a reason why it is difficult for newly-arrived linemen to play the next week.

The Cowboys already have moved to keep the nucleus of their line intact, signing Smith and Frederick to long-term extensions. Jones hopes to get Martin done soon, too, and the fact that Prescott and Elliott are locked into cheap rookie contracts should help clear money for Martin.

"There are just not as many veteran offensive linemen in the NFL anymore," said Geoff Schwartz, a tackle who played seven seasons and was released just before the 2016 season began by the Detroit Lions, who drafted three linemen this year. "You're either getting paid a lot of money or you're on a rookie contract; there's not a lot in between. Obviously, when there were more veterans, the lines were better."

Said Houck: "You look at some lines, they were together five, six, seven years. That's not the case anymore. That may be the biggest factor."

Maybe so, but free agency, like the popularity of the college spread and practice limitations, is unlikely to change enough to suit NFL wish lists. There is at least one offensive line coach who shrugs off all the angst. Dante Scarnecchia coached the Patriots' offensive line from 1999 until his retirement after the 2013 campaign. Scarnecchia, though, continued to work with the team, holding private workouts with two offensive linemen the team eventually drafted: Bryan Stork and Cameron Fleming. He returned this season as the coach, after the Patriots' offensive line, weakened by repeated injuries and the lack of development of young players, struggled to protect Tom Brady.

In training camp, Scarnecchia stressed the importance of trying to keep the starting offensive line intact -- and for the most part, he has been successful. Each player in the starting group of Nate Solder, Joe Thuney, David Andrews, Shaq Mason and Marcus Cannon has played at least 88 percent of the offensive snaps this season, a marked change from last season, when the Patriots used 13 different starting lineups.

But Scarnecchia has little time for the other issues that may plague linemen. He points to the 41 offensive linemen who were drafted last spring as evidence that NFL teams remain very interested in what colleges are producing. Scarnecchia is a detail-oriented, technique-driven coach, so he feels strongly that if players are teachable, he has a chance to succeed with them.

"I'll just give you this: Years ago, everybody was running the wishbone and everybody was wringing their hands, 'Aw, these guys don't know how to pass-block.' " Scarnecchia said. "Now, you see plenty of instances by all these spread teams of them running the ball. You can see whether a guy will be physical. If you don't see that, then you don't draft the guy. I think we would all like more practice time, but, you know, this is a different world we're in right now. If you spend too much time thinking about that, you'll wish you were doing something else."
Posted By: bbrowns32 Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 01:35 AM
Many thanks, Vambo. That was a very good read...
Posted By: sk8termom Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 02:12 AM
Originally Posted By: bbrowns32
Many thanks, Vambo. That was a very good read...


I agree - that was a great article! Learned a lot about the Steelers OL and Mike Munchak
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 02:17 AM
I have a ton of respect for Munchak.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 02:24 AM
I think that our run rankings are rather heavily skewed by our significant successes early in the season when Crowell was pretty much keeping pace with Zeke. If you looked at only the last 7 or 8 weeks, I'd wager that we're likely dead last in every category across the board.
Posted By: sk8termom Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 03:16 AM
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
I have a ton of respect for Munchak.


He has been an amazing coach. Hopefully the Steelers can keep him.
Posted By: ThatGuy Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 05:08 AM
Originally Posted By: PrplPplEater
I think that our run rankings are rather heavily skewed by our significant successes early in the season when Crowell was pretty much keeping pace with Zeke. If you looked at only the last 7 or 8 weeks, I'd wager that we're likely dead last in every category across the board.


Also, on the other side of that, we are dead last in "QB Hits", but how many of those are the QBs fault?
Posted By: mac Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 01:36 PM
Quote:
NFL.com Research created a system for ranking the league's offensive lines in four telling categories: rushing yards before contact per attempt, rushing yards per carry, quarterback hits allowed and sacks per pass play. By adding together their league-wide rankings in each category, it is easy to determine which are the best and worst. After the Week 13 games, with one month to go in the regular season, the rankings are no surprise.


With the Browns Offensive line leading the NFL in two categories...
...number QB SACKS allowed......45..
...number of QB HITS allowed...104..

Even though the Browns are coming off of a BYE WEEK and did not play last week, they still managed to maintain their lead in both categories..sacks and QB hits.

It looks like there might be some changes to the OLine this week with Erving possibly going to RT and someone new at center. Hopefully, changes or not, the Browns OLine will "protect" their QB, who might be RG3. PROTECT MEANS, don't let the defense touch him.

These last 4 games...it is time for the Browns front office to determine the draft priority they give to the OLine.

If the Browns draft a QB in the 1st or 2nd round and put him behind the OLine that led the NFL in QB hits and sacks, without any improvements to the OLine...it will show us whether the front office has learned anything about the game of football on the offensive side.

We shall see...

Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 01:40 PM
First of all, how many teams haven't had their bye yet?

Secondly, there is not an offensive linemen worthy of being drafted in the top 10 in this upcoming draft.

Finally, the Browns desperately need impact players. I think they should go w/Myles Garrett w/the first pick and the BPA w/the pick they get from the Eagles.
Posted By: mac Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 01:50 PM
Quote:
First of all, how many teams haven't had their bye yet?


vers...I did take the time to check the team ranked just behind the Browns..the Colts. In week 10, they had their bye week, so it looks as though it will be a race to the end of the season between the Colts and Browns to see which OLine leads the NFL in sacks and QB hits.


Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog

Secondly, there is not an offensive linemen worthy of being drafted in the top 10 in this upcoming draft.

Finally, the Browns desperately need impact players. I think they should go w/Myles Garrett w/the first pick and the BPA w/the pick they get from the Eagles.


vers...so you have not done much scouting.. tsktsk

How ironic that you make the above statement...I strongly suggest you take a long look at the 2016




Alabama vs Texas AM game...then give me your thoughts.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 02:16 PM
You didn't answer my question. How many teams have not had their bye yet?

I am familiar w/Robinson, but I surely don't think he is better than Myles Garrett. Do you? I would put Robinson in the mid to late teens.
Posted By: dawgpound101 Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 06:38 PM
I do believe that every team has now had their bye week.
Posted By: Vambo Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 09:26 PM
Browns' John Greco reveals he might need Lisfranc foot surgery, a year-long rehab

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2016/12/browns_john_greco_reveals_he_m.html

BEREA, Ohio - You know it's a star-crossed season for the Browns when one of their starting guards gets a scooter as a hand-me-down from the other.

Guard John Greco, who wheeled through the locker room Thursday on his scooter and with his right foot in a boot, revealed that he likely suffered the same kind of Lisfranc mid foot injury that knocked Joel Bitonio out for the season. What's more, he might have to undergo the same surgery Bitonio did in October, which involves about a year-long rehab.

"I know (flukey),'' said Greco. "Two in one year if that's what it is. I would think it is (Lisfranc).''

Greco will visit foot specialist Dr. Robert Anderson next week in Charlotte, and like Bitonio, will likely stick around there for the surgery if it's necessary. The procedure involves almost a year-long recovery, but both are eager to make a full recovery for next season.

"It sucks, especially this time of year,'' said Greco, who started 10 games at guard and two at center. "I would've liked to finish out the season with these guys, but it is what it is."

Greco said the passing of the scooter from Bitonio to him was surreal.

"This [scooter] was his,'' he said. "It was weird. I was in the training room. He rolled in, and they were like, 'Hey, give that to John.' It was crazy how it worked out. It's hard for me to understand. It's such a long recovery. But you're out of the boot and you're able to walk. But it's like why does it take such a long time [to recover]."

A Lisfranc injury involves the bones and cartilage on the top of the midfoot and varies in severity depending on how many of each are involved. But the prognosis after surgery is good.

"Yeah, that's the thing,'' said Greco. "I guess they say if they correct it with surgery you're able to come back 100 percent. It's just kind of a lengthy recovery. It's hard for me to understand it because when they explain to you about the possibilities, it's like you'll be a cast for a while. I think he was in a cast for four weeks. Then he was in one of these things [walking boot].''

Greco, who saved the Browns whenever Cam Erving wasn't able to start or finish the game at center, will be replaced in the lineup by former first-round pick Jonathan Cooper, who's trying to salvage his career.

"It's so hard when the team doesn't have success to do that and when you're in a season like that, you tell yourself you just have to play your game as best as you can so when whoever's evaluating they say moving forward we can win with this guy,'' said Greco. "That's what I just tried to do all year. I'll bounce back from whatever this is and be good to go for the future."

RG3 named Browns starter vs. Bengals

Although the future seems bleak for the line right now, Greco believes it can get turned around in a hurry. The Browns lead the league with 45 sacks allowed, but they should have Bitonio, Greco and Austin Reiter (torn ACL) all back at some point next year.

"What a good story it would be if going through such a dark time and being able to kind of learn from it,'' said Greco. "Things can only go up, so to be able to kind of enjoy that and look back to see what we went through to taste success eventually."
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 09:29 PM
A year? Goodness!
Posted By: oobernoober Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 09:50 PM
It wasn't super clear from the article, but they made it sound like Greco's recovery is going to be (up to?) a year, but Bitonio is much shorter than that.

Maybe I'm just not reading it correctly.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 10:00 PM
I may not have read it right. But dang, I hope it isn't a year.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 10:19 PM
Maybe it's a year to be back to 100%, but you can play before?

Again, not clear from the article.
Posted By: dawgpound101 Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/08/16 10:26 PM
about a year? wow Greco sorry bro
Posted By: mac Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/09/16 11:59 AM
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
You didn't answer my question. How many teams have not had their bye yet?

I am familiar w/Robinson, but I surely don't think he is better than Myles Garrett. Do you? I would put Robinson in the mid to late teens.


vers...as I did mention, the Colts, who are in second place to the Browns for the worst offensive line in the NFL, had their bye week in the 10th week.
Why you want any additional information information, such as the bye week of other teams, is beyond me. Feel free to enlighten me.

Now on to the video...vers or "anyone" who bothers to take the time to watch the video of the 2016 game between A&M and Bama... tell us about Myles Garrett's performance against Bama..what did you see?

What did you see in the video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gNZq5gYVlwM
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/09/16 01:06 PM
Quote:
vers...as I did mention, the Colts, who are in second place to the Browns for the worst offensive line in the NFL, had their bye week in the 10th week.
Why you want any additional information information, such as the bye week of other teams, is beyond me. Feel free to enlighten me.


You said this earlier:

Quote:

Even though the Browns are coming off of a BYE WEEK and did not play last week, they still managed to maintain their lead in both categories..sacks and QB hits.


Thus, there is no significance to the statement of the Browns coming off of their bye week if all teams have already had their bye weeks. Your statement comes across as deceptive. I call the homers on that at times. And, I'll call you on it, too.

Stick to reality and don't try and deceive your readers.
Posted By: mac Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/09/16 01:20 PM
Quote:
Stick to reality and don't try and deceive your readers.


vers...lol, deceive the readers about the "bye week" and how it relates to the Browns OLine leading the NFL in QB hits and sacks?...

...hhhhmmmmm, vers, you are the one that seems to have an issue with the bye week...just sayn.

Now, back to the video, did you watch the Garrett's entire performance against Bama?...once you watch it, tell everyone what you think of Garrett's performance?
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/09/16 01:55 PM
Yes mac.

Btw-----------I am talking about Garrett and the draft in the draft threads in the Tailgate forum. Feel free to participate.
Posted By: DeputyDawg Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/09/16 03:16 PM
A team that played an extra game compared to the rest is going to have more sacks and more hurries.

Garret is a physical freak and it is going to be hard to pass him by. Robinson is very good, but not that elite prospect that other that top LT prospects have been. It's the fact that LT's are valued higher than other positions that gets him into the top 10 conversations.
Posted By: Bull_Dawg Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/09/16 03:37 PM
Originally Posted By: mac
Quote:
Stick to reality and don't try and deceive your readers.


vers...lol, deceive the readers about the "bye week" and how it relates to the Browns OLine leading the NFL in QB hits and sacks?...

...hhhhmmmmm, vers, you are the one that seems to have an issue with the bye week...just sayn.

Now, back to the video, did you watch the Garrett's entire performance against Bama?...once you watch it, tell everyone what you think of Garrett's performance?


I'll bite. Garrett was playing on a bad ankle (Hurt it against Arkansas and was playing with the nagging injury most of the season- he did miss some time), and Alabama still ran away from him nine times out of ten despite having the "top LT" in college football blocking him. When Alabama passed, which wasn't very often, they were primarily of the quick route variety. Lane Kiffin game planned to minimize the damage Myles could do, but he still impacted the game (they adjusted to account for him). Plus, He caused disruption in the run game when they tried to have a puller block him and made a couple splash plays. Alabama had the lead for most of the game, so he didn't have a whole lot of opportunities to get after the passer.

Daeshon Hall is quick and can be disruptive, but he can be moved at the point of attack. Texas A&M relied on turnovers and big plays early in the year to climb the rankings. Alabama kind of flipped the script on them. They got the lead and then just overpowered A&M, avoiding throwing and limiting the potential for turnovers.

I'd like to say that in the NFL teams won't be able to just avoid Garrett for large portions of games, but I'm not sure that is true with our team. We do need to find a way to score points, so opponents have a reason to need to pass more predictably.

It also works the other way, too, though. We get behind, have to predictably pass, and QBs get killed. Garrett plays the run well along with being able to rush the passer.

Could we upgrade Pazstor and the better OL allow us to score more points? Maybe, but it looks like the line's biggest problem is communication/recognition (mainly Erving, but the replacement OG's, too) Time/Experience should help, but I'm not sure how much. Hopefully, Shon Coleman will finally be healthy and show us what he can do.
Posted By: Halfback32 Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/09/16 03:45 PM
To answer the Question.. heading into this week.. Week 14.. Everyone has had their bye week. The Browns were in the Last group to get a bye week. Any statistics quoted in the NFL for week 14 will reflect everyone having played 12 games.
Posted By: mac Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/09/16 04:29 PM
Quote:
A team that played an extra game compared to the rest is going to have more sacks and more hurries.


As I pointed out, even with the Browns having a bye week and accumulating NO sacks and NO QB hits, the Browns OLine managed to maintain their lead in sacks +4 and in QB hits +8, over the next closest team, the Colts.

All teams in contention for sacks and QB hits, at this point have played the same number of games.

All the Browns can hope for is the new guys on the OLine protect their QB better than the previous OLine combinations.



Quote:
Garret is a physical freak and it is going to be hard to pass him by. Robinson is very good, but not that elite prospect that other that top LT prospects have been. It's the fact that LT's are valued higher than other positions that gets him into the top 10 conversations.


To those who did not take the time to scout Myles Garrett against the best competition he was going to face this season, Myles Garrett got OWNED by Cam Robinson.

Cam Robinson, with knee braces on, dominated Garrett, demorialized Garrett to the point that I felt Gareett gave up trying...it was a physical beat down.

What Bama did that many teams have not, they did not do anything fancy blocking Garrett, preferring to allow Robinson to handle Garrett one on one...and it worked. Garrett WAS NOT STRONG enough to overpower Robinson and Garrett was not quick enough to get around Robinson.

I've watched several of Myles Garrett's games this year and many of his sacks have come with teams attempting to trap block Garrett. Garrett has too much speed and quickness in open space to block him one on one with a trap block at the college level.

My fear with Garrett, his weakness was exposed against Robinson and at the NFL level he will be playing against much better OT talent than he is facing in college. I do expect many NFL teams to challenge Garrett's physical strength and lack of size in same fashion that Bama and Cam Robinson did..straight up, one on one.

Also, Myles Garrett is LAZY...he gives up easily if he does not beat the defender. If he feels he is out of the play, he will not chase.

I read something about Garrett doing all he can to protect his future and avoiding injury and unnecessary hits this season. IMO, I don't want a player who is so concerned about his future that he alters his play on the field.

Who says Garrett won't be concerned about injuries as a Pro and dogs it to protect himself? Garrett will likely be looking to score that mega contact after his rookie deal...and will not give his all to the Browns.

My experience with lazy players looking to protect themsleves from injuries...don't want them on my team. There type of play is infectious and can affect others on the team.

I want a player who puts out, every play...but that is just me!

Those looking to challenge my report on Myles Garrett, don't tell me you looked at his highlights...watch Garrett against his toughest competition...it will tell you a lot more about the man and the individual than highlights will.

Cam Robinson...don't know where he will go in the draft but I would love to have him on our team. I would play him at RT as Joe Thomas' eventual replacement and I would know that I have finally fixed the Mitch Schwartz screwup.

...Robinson is NFL ready.

The draft a center in the 2nd or beginning of the 3rd round.
Posted By: DeputyDawg Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/09/16 05:20 PM
As it was pointed out Garret was playing on the bum ankle and you are not qualified to make that statement.

You need to be a football guy with at least 20 years of experience to make that statement.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/09/16 10:47 PM
If the Browns take two offensive linemen in the first 2-3 rounds AFTER letting two good offensive linemen walk this past off-season, I am going to explode!!!
Posted By: dawgpound101 Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/09/16 11:22 PM
mac this is my only concern with your post...I see it differently..

" Garrett will likely be looking to score that mega contact after his rookie deal...and will not give his all to the Browns."

If Garrett is looking to score a mega contract after his rookie contract. He will have to play lights out to earn one...won't get paid if does not do that...he will get a cheap contract if his play does not warrant a mega deal
Posted By: predator16 Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/10/16 03:19 AM
Bama ran a total of two designed runs to the left of the center the entire game. Both right into the left a gap. Both of which plays he was doubled by robison and the lg. He also gave zero ground and anchored well on those plays. Out of 57 rushes only two were within 2 gaps of Garrett. Yet he still had 4 tfl by getting to the option before the rb could even move. And I'd be happy to track every play and calculate how many times the qb held the ball longer than 3 sec without rolling right, running or passing but without writing it down I counted 4. Robinson did an admirable job and I'm much higher on him than most and I'm all for being objective but calling Garrett's performance anything but great is foolish. That isn't even considering his ankle being sub par. He is truly a generational talent and while he doesn't play with his hair on fire he is very similar to Joe Thomas in his nature. I can't really knock him for that and any "rumors" of his taking it easy to limit injuries could be said of any player and there is zero proof.
Posted By: mac Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/10/16 01:43 PM
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
If the Browns take two offensive linemen in the first 2-3 rounds AFTER letting two good offensive linemen walk this past off-season, I am going to explode!!!


vers...if this bunch turns to free agency and overpays for inferior talent to fill the center and RT needs...I'm not gonna be very happy about it.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/10/16 01:50 PM
mac, I don't like the overall talent of the offensive line in this upcoming draft. I think signing one mid-level FA would be wise.

I do think the talent is high on the defensive side of the ball. I think we desperately need an edge rusher. I think we need upgrades at corner. I think we need two new safeties. I think we could use an ILBer.

I think we can go BPA and fill many of those needs.

I am going to be pissed if we draft a QB or OL-man high!
Posted By: mac Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/10/16 01:56 PM
Originally Posted By: DeputyDawg
As it was pointed out Garret was playing on the bum ankle and you are not qualified to make that statement.

You need to be a football guy with at least 20 years of experience to make that statement.


Dep...you are great at criticizing others and questioning their background and whether they are qualified (by your standards) to comment on various football matters. Let's see how good your are at breaking down video.

...go to the 8:05 mark of this video and watch Garrett against UCLA..now lets see if you can break down Myles Garrett's reaction on this play?



..tell everyone what you see.
Posted By: Jester Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/10/16 02:12 PM
"he gives up easily if he does not beat the defender. If he feels he is out of the play, he will not chase. "

This is my biggest issue with Garrett. I see a guy with the talent to be Lawrence Taylor but the desire to be Cameron Wimbley.

I am worried that he needs to go to a team like the Patriots or the Ray Lewis Ravins to realize greatness. He needs some strong willed veterans to get on his butt. We don't have that guy on our team.
Posted By: ThatGuy Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/10/16 06:44 PM
Garrett and Collins on one side would be fun to watch..

You have a high motor guy like Nassib at DE, Garrett blitzing the outside from OLB and Collins crashing the middle at MLB?

Sign me up.
Posted By: predator16 Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/10/16 07:41 PM
Can you imagine a 5-2 with Garrett, Nassib, Danny, Bryant and Ogbah with Kirksey and collins staying clean. Goosebumps
Posted By: bleednbrown Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/10/16 09:52 PM
Based on what? Where are you getting your info? He reminds me of someone that ran to the pile and jump on late, then run to the play and after the tackle was made run around the pile. Can you guess who this was? He was one of my favorite players, Clay Matthews. I have dvd's of some old games, man it's a hoot. Some plays it's like who is this guy, shows up late a dives into the pile rofl or a run up the middle and the tackle was already made and here he comes runs to pile looks at tackle and then runs around the pile rofl And I love Clay, but man it seems like he wanted to be anywhere but the play sometimes.

He was an All-Pro. The point is, not everybody goes 110%, does not mean that they don't care, it just means somebody else already made the play. There's nothing wrong with that.
Posted By: Jester Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/10/16 10:00 PM
Based on my eyes.

Go to draftbreakdown and watch some of his cutups.
There are enough plays where he gives up pursuit well before the play is over, gives me some concern.
Posted By: Jester Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/10/16 10:02 PM
Running late into the pile is very different than not even running to the pile
Posted By: bleednbrown Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/10/16 10:13 PM
Fine, you can have your concerns, I'm just saying if you get a chance look up Clay and watch him play. No way you would ever think he was an All-Pro. I think the Green Bay "Dave Logan Game" in 1980 game and the Jets double overtime game was another one. Good Times
Posted By: DeputyDawg Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/11/16 05:53 AM
Originally Posted By: mac
Originally Posted By: DeputyDawg
As it was pointed out Garret was playing on the bum ankle and you are not qualified to make that statement.

You need to be a football guy with at least 20 years of experience to make that statement.


Dep...you are great at criticizing others and questioning their background and whether they are qualified (by your standards) to comment on various football matters. Let's see how good your are at breaking down video.

...go to the 8:05 mark of this video and watch Garrett against UCLA..now lets see if you can break down Myles Garrett's reaction on this play?



..tell everyone what you see.


Ahh, but the 20 years was your standard, not mine, but I'll bite. His reaction was pretty decent given that the run was to the opposite side. First, he didn't get sucked in, in case it was a reverse. He chased the RB for about 20 yards, he let up at the end but he was losing ground to a pretty speedy back so I could see why. I would prefer someone that didn't let up until the whistle but It's hard to fault a guy that had no chance to make the tackle. Some might fault him for not knifing through the traffic to the left, but you can tell he didn't see the ball till the RB broke from the crowd.

Now let's hear your take on how horrible he was on that play.
Posted By: candyman92 Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/11/16 08:03 AM


They run block well, but suck pass blocking.

Raiders o-line is nuts. Raiders have the 7th most pass attempts and are still number 1 in total QB hits allowed is insane. It is not even close either. They've allowed 11 less than the Titans. Carr is throwing the ball 38.25 times a game and getting hit 2.1 times a game.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/11/16 12:52 PM
Thanks for getting this thread back to the OL.

I agree w/you about the Raiders' OL. For the last few weeks, I have been saying that they have the second best OL in football. One other thing about hem...........have you seen them.....they're freaking huge.

They really missed Osemele the other night. He was a great FA pick-up for the Raiders. He's enormous and no-one bull rushes him. He is also huge in their running game.
Posted By: Dawgs4Life Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/11/16 02:16 PM
The Raiders and Cowboys have the best OLs right now ... and look at their records. Dak/Carr have been very good, but would probably suck with us
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/11/16 02:21 PM
j/c

There are a lot of OL gurus on this board and I'd like to get some opinions here. I'll throw out what I see, but acknowledge that I don't always see what the gurus see. This is mostly intended for looking into the future on the OL:

Thomas - He's still a legit All-pro type guy

Bitonio - He's in the top 1/3 of Gs and is a legit starter...I'll assume he's going to heal up for the START of next year. I often times read where he "could" play RT. I don't have the experience/eye to evaluate that potential but that comment always gets my attention.

Greco - Solid starter and can play all the interior spots. He has the same injury as Bitonio but I doubt he's ready for the START of next season. He's been underrated most of his time here as he's been no worse than very solid. At times, he might be/have-been the best OL on the unit - all due respects to JT. My concern here is that a foot injury for a guy his age is not good...that and he won't likely be available on opening day.

Reiter - Yeah...I'm listing him before Erving. Looked quite good in the 3/4 of a game that we saw him. He was kinda of unnoticed in that game - in a good way for OL. He's young and most guys return from ACLs these days. Is he the 'answer' at C?

Pasztor - I think he's played better than he gets credit...although he's no Schwartz. I think he's done well at RT - outside the Miami game which ironically is the ONLY game we can TRULY say we should have won. He played well at G last year and I think he's a G moreso than a T - mostly because that's what I read from guys who seem to know that stuff. He's young too. I hope we keep him and throw him in the mix. At worst, he's a G/T backup and those guys are valuable.

Drango - I think he's played well considering he was thrown in the fire and considering who lines up to his right.

I say those six guys are no-doubt keepers.

Cooper - We will see. I'm hearing that he's pretty-much a RG type. If he shows something, he has a chance to stick. If for no other reason than my guess that Greco won't be able to start the season.

Bailey - What a huge disappointment this guy has been. He was going to start at RT...wasn't good enough...he played some at RG and seemed below-average to me. Again, I suppose we have to consider who is to his left. Cooper is ahead of him now.

Erving - I have no idea what to say here. He's been bad...really bad. Yet lately I read where some say he has improved...but even those people seem to be very concerned with his ability to make the line calls. We've gone from a genius making the line calls (Mack) to this guy. How weird is that? I don't think he's a C.

Coleman - Who the heaven knows? I've read where some say he's the best RT on the team. I have no idea with this guy.

Fabiano & Ikard - I'm putting these guys together for now. I know only what I've read in their Bios. I don't remember any talk about them on this board.

If we don't sign/draft a guy(s) I guess this would be the starting lineup next year (with Greco out at the start):

JT-Bitonio-Reiter-Cooper/Drango-Pasztor

Backups:
Coleman-Erving-Fabiano-Ikard

Awe inspiring, no? I don't want to draft an OL before the 3rd because our defense needs so much help. I want our (3) injured OL guys to come back strong and early. If I grew 4" taller I wouldn't be so overweight.

I'm on board with the comments I've read about picking up a FA OL. Could be a RT-type or a G even. It hurts my head to say that after the Schwartz non-signing last year. We do not have the luxury of feeling set here with so many ???. Will all (3) guys return from injury? When will Greco be ready to play again? Is Cooper a viable option? Where/what is Coleman?

As much as I hate to say/acknowledge it, we need help here. If not FA, then the draft. We won't likely get immediate help in the draft after the 3rd Rd - which makes my head hurt again.

What do we really have here? Do we have guys showing enough promise to be legit players? Can we roll the dice on the injured guys coming back?
Posted By: Jester Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/11/16 02:38 PM
I am not by any means an oline guru but here are my thoughts on your post.

1, I agree with most of your observations.

2, Love JT but how many more years will he be around?
we need to start planning for his replacement

3, love Bitonio but he he sure seems to get injured quite frequently

4, Greco is really underrated. His injury is a bummer.

5, I think Pasztor is a pretty good OG. I think he can on either side
He is a so-so RT. Unfortunately he is by far the best RT on the Roster.
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/13/16 01:59 PM
j/c

I know it is/was only one game...however...I'm reading a lot of positive comments about J Cooper's play. Also reading that Erving had another good game and looks to be progressing. (Lots of the 'ole...he's basically a rookie this year type stuff now.)

Cooper's play helped Pasztor to a good game as well since he could focus on HIS job and not Bailey's.

I want Cooper to work out...I want Pasztor to work out...I want Erving to work out...we need all the help we can get. I'm just not sure if I'm optimistic about these guys because they are really looking good...or if I'm optimistic because I WANT them to work out.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/13/16 02:12 PM
I hope Jonathan Cooper works out but I would be interested to know what his issues were in ARZ. This guy will be 27 next season. I think he has a fifth year option the Browns can pick up because he was selected in the first round so we may not have to fully value his worth in a long-term contract if he proves he can stick around...at least not yet.

John Greco makes less than $1MM next year and coupled with Cooper and Bitonio, we might have some nice depth at the position.

It was only one game...hopefully we see some consistency.
Posted By: waterdawg Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/13/16 02:36 PM
5, I think Pasztor is a pretty good OG. I think he can on either side ...

The above is spot on ! .. We do not have a real RT on the roster at this point .
Posted By: DeputyDawg Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/13/16 04:21 PM
Originally Posted By: MemphisBrownie
I hope Jonathan Cooper works out but I would be interested to know what his issues were in ARZ. This guy will be 27 next season. I think he has a fifth year option the Browns can pick up because he was selected in the first round so we may not have to fully value his worth in a long-term contract if he proves he can stick around...at least not yet.

John Greco makes less than $1MM next year and coupled with Cooper and Bitonio, we might have some nice depth at the position.

It was only one game...hopefully we see some consistency.


He couldn't stay healthy. It wasn't anything major, but several minor injuries and an inability to be healthy in training camp that kept him out of the line-up.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/13/16 04:26 PM
Thank you for the information on Cooper.
Posted By: eotab Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/13/16 05:28 PM
As of today...my take of the OL.

Joe Thomas - keeps on trucking as one of the best...will make it through his contract as a pro bowler...if we are on the edge...I hope we give him a one or two year extension so he can enjoy the FRUITS OF HIS LABOR!.

Bitonio...hopefully he heals 100% and has seen his days of going on the IR...interior is tough cause you get rolled up on a lot. OT is on an Island and they have made rules to protect them. Bitonio could be at Pro Bowl Lever if he plays every snap!

Erving...I was down on him and rarely do I get down of him...but a funny thing happened on the way to the cutting board. The young OL in just his 11th game at his position, STARTED TO GET IT. He now has had 3 good games and this will be a great happening as we could have that Center position taken care of!

Greco...bad injury for an OL man or any man weighting 300+ lbs as it is a weight bearing injury! Let him heal for a season when cleared to play bring him in only in emergencies or when we go to 6 OL.

Jonathan Cooper, never saw him play...I think he has 3 starts for one of the highest Interior OL picks from the draft EVER...I was not expecting much. But he had his first game against a tough Interior DL and I thought he played great. I couldn't record it as my dish was broken so I had to watch from my phone. This would give Greco time to heal but it also can be a Wally Pip story. Next 3 games will tell but Cooper might become an unseen Stud???

Pastor...eh not as bad as many think but OH SO REPLACEABLE...for 3 years I have been wishing for us to take an OT stud for our RT. That was with Schwartz here...It has increased tremendously in my hopes for draft Day! I want a Snot Bubble RT. pure and simple. Pasztor is a stop gap and nothing more...a good versatile OL backup!

Bailey...sucks!
Drango...hopefully can get better but right now is not a starter...just a filler. But as fillers go not that bad.

Reiter...had a good 3 qtrs of play. I cannot make an assessment with that. I liked what I saw but in lieu of Erving recent play...he will not be our starting Center.

Shon Coleman...young lost a lot of time in Training camp..I would like to see what he does with his OFF Season. He is the only one I think on our roster for that Good RT as in POSSIBLE POTENTIAL. But I'd rather draft an absolute STUD!

jmho
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/13/16 09:24 PM
j/c:

In the Post Game Thoughts thread, I noted that Cooper and Pazstor played well and really opened a lot of holes in the running game.

I know both guys had a good grade from PFF.

Now, I am seeing a lot of love for Erving. Does anyone know what his grade for the game was?
Posted By: Rishuz Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/13/16 09:29 PM
Don't know what his grade was but I read from one of the OBR contributors (a guy that studies the film) that he thought it was the best game Erving has played as a pro.
Posted By: clevesteve Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/13/16 09:30 PM
not directly, but this indicates good performances from the other 4 memebers of the line and crow, and gives the best grade of the game to atkins.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/pro-cle-cin-grades-bengals-offense-heats-up-first-half/
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/13/16 09:37 PM
Thanks to you and Rish for responding. I am just questioning to how good Erving play. I saw a few nice blocks that impressed me. I also saw him miss some blocks and another one where a guy crossed his face and it appeared he didn't even see him.

On the other hand, I thought Cooper and Pazstor played well for most of the game. I think I only saw one bad play be each. But again, it's hard to tell on TV.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/13/16 09:39 PM
Just checked your link out. Joe T had our highest grade, but Cooper and Pazstor were right behind. Thanks again.
Posted By: DeputyDawg Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 02:42 AM
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Thanks to you and Rish for responding. I am just questioning to how good Erving play. I saw a few nice blocks that impressed me. I also saw him miss some blocks and another one where a guy crossed his face and it appeared he didn't even see him.

On the other hand, I thought Cooper and Pazstor played well for most of the game. I think I only saw one bad play be each. But again, it's hard to tell on TV.


Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Thanks to you and Rish for responding. I am just questioning to how good Erving play. I saw a few nice blocks that impressed me. I also saw him miss some blocks and another one where a guy crossed his face and it appeared he didn't even see him.

On the other hand, I thought Cooper and Pazstor played well for most of the game. I think I only saw one bad play be each. But again, it's hard to tell on TV.


Just my two cents, but Erving has played much better physically all year. It's mentally where he has struggled this year, but I did not notice any brain farts this game. Atkins did manage to bull rush him a few times, but he does that to everyone else as well. Overall he had a decent game in my opinion, which against Atkins means not looking like a speed bump.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 02:47 AM
That's probably a fair take.

Just wanted to address how some are acting like he has turned the proverbial corner by saying he has had 3 good games in a row. Not so sure about that.

For example..........if mac or myself would say that Erving has "sucked" for 3 straight games, the outrage would be tremendous. In fact, that has already been proven in the past.

Just trying to keep things "real."
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 12:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
That's probably a fair take.

Just wanted to address how some are acting like he has turned the proverbial corner by saying he has had 3 good games in a row. Not so sure about that.

For example..........if mac or myself would say that Erving has "sucked" for 3 straight games, the outrage would be tremendous. In fact, that has already been proven in the past.

Just trying to keep things "real."


If you said Erving "sucked" these past three games, the outrage would be real. If others said he looked like Mack these last three games, the outrage would be "real".
Posted By: eotab Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 01:57 PM
Just wanted to address how some are acting like he has turned the proverbial corner by saying he has had 3 good games in a row. Not so sure about that.

That would be me...its ok you can address me directly. I don't think anyone else said that same quote I made.

PLAYERS Get better they progress. He has played 3 Solid games in a row and each one actually was a little better than the last. Again this was his 11, 12 and 13th game as an NFL CENTER...and I didn't include the couple of games he missed from injuries so it is actually LESS. You make evaluations and once you burn that in your mind its like that is it. He is a bum and a mistake. I personally didn't like the pick except that it was for the OL. But he is here and I am happy to see his IMPROVEMENTS. Surprised you would ask for OL Stats and not your eyes. No I didn't focus on him one on one...but most plays have Replay with close ups and slo mo to evaluate I didn't see negatives. Also if I keyed on an OLman during the game it was Cooper. If I recorded it I would be curious and see every play and focus but I didn't.

I think we can get a Great RT and that could cement the OL for next year.

jmho...again got to see Cooper the next 3 games. I don't think everyone knows how strong Erving is...
Posted By: HotBYoungTurk Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 02:07 PM
So we only need to draft a Tackle? Keep the rest of the line as is?

I'm still not very high on Erving. I'm not a watch the oline guy, so its hard for me to say if his last 3 games were good, but I know rg3 had good time to throw this past game.

I say we still draft his replacement. I think we can get a good C in the 2nd round.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 02:13 PM
Quote:
I'm still not very high on Erving. I'm not a watch the oline guy, so its hard for me to say if his last 3 games were good, but I know rg3 had good time to throw this past game.


The guy still has a ways to go, but like EO said, I like his improvements from game to game this season. Heck, even last year we saw flashes of what he could do, he just never put it together.

For me, more than time for RG3 to throw (which was important) were the running lanes opened on the right side of the line. They were massive at times. I think Cooper played a role in that but the two worked together well. Since Bitonio went down, I think this might have been the best running game for Crowell and he ran it just 10 TIMES....but that's another issue entirely.
Posted By: drobs Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 03:42 PM
To my naive eye, I think Erving has progressed this year. I think between that and Reiter (sp), I'm happy leaving the C position until later in the draft. I was also, like others, really impressed by Cooper and Pazstor. I hope Cooper can stay healthy (finally) and fulfil the promise of his draft status.

All in all, given the lack of top end talent at OT this draft, I'd be willing to see what we have in Coleman and maybe taking someline like Wheeler (S.Cal), Skipper (Ark.), McDermott (UCLA) or Davenport (Bucknell) later on.
Posted By: DevilDawg2847 Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 04:33 PM
I DVR'd the game, but listened to it on the radio. It sounded like Erving not only generally held his own, but had some really good, key blocks.

When I got home i just skipped the 1,2, and 4th quarters. One area I'd like to see Erving improve is taking on the LBers. One play comes to mind where Erving was run blocking and was moving toward Burfict to block him. I don't know if he misjudged Burfict, or expected Burfict to come to him, but Erving just pitched forward head first doing his best Joe Haden impression and took his legs out.

My impression of him on that play was that he panicked. Not that he was afraid, but that he found himself in a no man's land during the play and knew he had to do something. He was supposed to block the LB, but the LB wasn't quite where he was supposed to be.

When we talk about the "speed of the game" it's usually is centered around skill players who see just how much bigger and faster the NFL is.. or with QB's and their ability to mentally process as the play evolves. I think Erving has difficulty in the mental part. I don't think he's stupid. I just think that he has a hard time adapting as the play evolves. Throughout much of the season we've seen so many times where in pass protection he gets sucked in making a double team on a Dlineman that the guard is clearly handling. Instead of breaking off and staying home, these gaps got created that LBers were busting through.

I have to say though I think I may be back to neutral on Erving. The last few weeks I've been wondering if there was even another position that he could play in order to justify keeping next year.

Overall a real nice day by the O line this past weekend. It's crazy to see that with simple execution someone like Crow can go over 100yrds on 10 carries.
Posted By: predator16 Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 04:35 PM
Joe, bitonio, Erving, Greco, pasztor, Coleman, reiter, drango and a rook rt? That's an OL I would be OK with going into next year.
Posted By: PastorMarc Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 05:07 PM
Originally Posted By: predator16
Joe, bitonio, Erving, Greco, pasztor, Coleman, reiter, drango and a rook rt? That's an OL I would be OK with going into next year.


We need to draft a Center ... JMHO
Posted By: mac Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 06:03 PM
Originally Posted By: predator16
Joe, bitonio, Erving, Greco, pasztor, Coleman, reiter, drango and a rook rt? That's an OL I would be OK with going into next year.


Don't be surprised if this front office "refuses" to draft any offensive linemen, insisting that they have already done their job, drafting Coleman and Drango in the last draft.

I wouldn't be surprised if the starting OLine was JT,Bitonio, Erving, Greco, Colman going into training camp.
Posted By: ThatGuy Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 06:08 PM
Doesn't Greco need some surgery that could put him out for like a year?

In other news.

Based on nothing but my opinion, I think our Oline is "ok"

Erving has improved a lot recently, and I will be of the opinion that Pasztor wouldn't have looked nearly as bad early this season if our QBs just got rid of the damn ball..
Posted By: CHSDawg Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 07:00 PM
Originally Posted By: mac
Originally Posted By: predator16
Joe, bitonio, Erving, Greco, pasztor, Coleman, reiter, drango and a rook rt? That's an OL I would be OK with going into next year.


Don't be surprised if this front office "refuses" to draft any offensive linemen, insisting that they have already done their job, drafting Coleman and Drango in the last draft.

I wouldn't be surprised if the starting OLine was JT,Bitonio, Erving, Greco, Colman going into training camp.


Me neither. They picked Coleman as a developmental pick. They thought he had the athleticism to play, but injuries set him back. Now if Coleman's technique improves to the point where he can start over the others on the roster, the future may look bright. However, Shon has to buy in a lot to do this. If I was him, I'd be walking in Joe Thomas's shadow. I'd go everywhere that he goes. Heck, I'd even film the Joe Thomas hour. But overall, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't draft a RT this year. I think they want to draft one who has the athleticism to take over the LT spot in a decade or so. And I just don't see any tackles in the draft who have that ability in the mid rounds.
Posted By: eotab Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 08:27 PM
I think this might have been the best running game for Crowell and he ran it just 10 TIMES....but that's another issue entirely.

I know I was pretty shocked when I read that...just 10 rushes???
Posted By: DiamDawg Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 09:02 PM
Ya tab .... 10 total ... he had 3 or 4 in the 1st half ...

Its been like that for the last 6 or 7 games ... Hue stops it without even trying it instead of making the defense prove they can stop it ...

SICKENING!
Posted By: CHSDawg Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 09:26 PM
Yep. I'd say Hue is way too impatient as a Head Coach/play caller. He usually compounds our problems in games through his play calling. He wants to get even too quickly. If we get scored on, Hue is wont to call three passing plays in a row. These usually go for 3 and outs, so our gassed defense is right back on the field. This is where our opponent usually gets their field goal in, but they score no matter what. Hue then kinda recognizes that the game is a lot longer and begins to run a bit, mainly focusing on the pass still. Now, I don't necessarily need him to turn the game of football into ground war, a la Schottenheimer, but he needs to start running more in the first quarter. Taking some time off the clock and beating up the other team's front 7 would really help out a defense that doesn't deserve to be out there.
Posted By: DeputyDawg Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 11:30 PM
Originally Posted By: mac
Originally Posted By: predator16
Joe, bitonio, Erving, Greco, pasztor, Coleman, reiter, drango and a rook rt? That's an OL I would be OK with going into next year.


Don't be surprised if this front office "refuses" to draft any offensive linemen, insisting that they have already done their job, drafting Coleman and Drango in the last draft.

I wouldn't be surprised if the starting OLine was JT,Bitonio, Erving, Greco, Colman going into training camp.


And don't be surprised if this FO drafts an o lineman with every pick because it's just as likely as anything mac invents.
Posted By: predator16 Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/14/16 11:46 PM
Originally Posted By: DeputyDawg
Originally Posted By: mac
Originally Posted By: predator16
Joe, bitonio, Erving, Greco, pasztor, Coleman, reiter, drango and a rook rt? That's an OL I would be OK with going into next year.


Don't be surprised if this front office "refuses" to draft any offensive linemen, insisting that they have already done their job, drafting Coleman and Drango in the last draft.

I wouldn't be surprised if the starting OLine was JT,Bitonio, Erving, Greco, Colman going into training camp.


And don't be surprised if this FO drafts an o lineman with every pick because it's just as likely as anything mac invents.


It'll be one he'll of a return from injury if that's the lineup in training camp.
Posted By: eotab Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/15/16 01:27 PM
Keep in mind also we were down 20-0 pretty quick which didn't help much and again I couldn't tape this game but possibly Vers can chime in. Was the Bengals loading the box where an offensive mind would automatically look to pass, I know Bernie Kosar would be saying there is 8 in the box we should pass...lol

But yeah 10 when we had that kind of success is questionable and on the flip side. We also didn't have much time of possession to assert the running game with flow. That first 20 minutes killed us and our game plan...man that sucked!
jmho
Posted By: MrUniverse Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/15/16 08:24 PM
Originally Posted By: eotab
I'm wondering, we gonna see Cam Erving playing at RT?

Pasztor has not been a failure around game 6 he started playing better. Possibly if that Reuter guy wins the Center position they will look at Erving at RT...but right now the last two games Erving has made some good steps forward at the Center position.

jmho...I will never object to a slobber knocker kick butt OL man taken in the draft but I don't think its a priority for this teams needs.


Agree with some but disagree with OL not being a priority. Maybe not a 1st round priority but depth on this line has been slim. Drango and Colman may end up becoming good depth and or starters, but there is really no depth at LT or C.

Pasztor to me is a G and I believe he played well at G last year when called upon. Pasztor's value is at G and RT depth but really does not serve well as a fulltime starter.

Erving has looked better these last three games at C, but he is still far from being a player I feel comfortable putting a franchise QB behind. I do not think he will fare well at RT either because I think the speed rushers will make him look foolish.

Greco is a guy I like, he is versatile and pretty solid with consistency.

Bitonio SP seems to miss large amounts of time, when healthy he is as solid as they come but he seems to be prone to injury.

Much of this debate depends on how well Drango and Colman progress and if they can become long term starters.

I will not say that OL is a must 1st round selection, but I do think this team needs to keep drafting OL in the mid rounds till they find the correct group that can open holes and protect the QB.
Posted By: dawgpound101 Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/15/16 09:28 PM
Originally Posted By: eotab
Keep in mind also we were down 20-0 pretty quick which didn't help much and again I couldn't tape this game but possibly Vers can chime in. Was the Bengals loading the box where an offensive mind would automatically look to pass, I know Bernie Kosar would be saying there is 8 in the box we should pass...lol

But yeah 10 when we had that kind of success is questionable and on the flip side. We also didn't have much time of possession to assert the running game with flow. That first 20 minutes killed us and our game plan...man that sucked!
jmho


Eotab go here for the Cinci game..it's free streaming replays.

http://www.nflfullhd.com/3386-2/
Posted By: ThatGuy Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/15/16 10:06 PM
Where has this been all my life..
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/16/16 02:04 AM
I don't agree w/everything you said, but that is a damn fine post.

Please post more. We need the help.
Posted By: ThatGuy Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/16/16 02:33 AM
General thoughts

The offensive line has given our QBs plenty of time, more often than not.

The bad plays, where it was the olines fault, get magnified, and talked about more often, making it seem like it happens more.

Our stable of QBs have ranging from occasionally to consistently had a "good" pocket, with enough time to get rid of the ball. They usually have chosen to hold on to it, whether due to lack of confidence, or trying to make a bigger play.

You cold trade up and draft 5 brand new HOF lineman, but if the QB sucks (ours do), or the WRs can't get open (I think they are), or the RB runs right into a wall of people (Sup Trent)

Then they are going to look worse than they are.

Honestly, how many times a game do you find yourself yelling at the TV because te QB is just standing there holding the ball? How do you think the lineman feel knowing they have to hold off DLineman for an unknown amount of time?

I'm not saying don't draft or sign anyone. I am not saying that. Just to be clear, I didnt, wont, and am NOT saying not to try to improve the oline if you can..

My general thought is that, if you improve the QB play, just to average (still waiting for that) then the line would look better than it does in all facets of the game..
Posted By: Vambo Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/16/16 05:22 AM
Browns' Alvin Bailey suspended 2 games without pay by NFL for earlier OVI

BEREA, Ohio -- Browns guard Alvin Bailey is just now paying the price for his OVI arrest in September. Bailey, 25, was suspended without pay for two games by the NFL Wednesday under its substance-abuse policy.

He'll sit out Sunday's game against the Bills and the home game against San Diego on Christmas Eve. He'll be eligible to return to the active roster on Christmas Day and might be available for the season finale New Year's Day in Pittsburgh.

Bailey will lose two game checks, which amounts to $117,647. He's the second Browns player to be suspended in less than a week. Rookie receiver Jordan Payton was suspended Friday for four games for violating the NFL's policy on performance-enhancing drugs.

Browns coach Hue Jackson said he told Payton: "Don't make stupid mistakes." As for Bailey, he said, "Obviously we've dealt with this issue before. We'll move on from there.''

Bailey pleaded no contest to operating a vehicle impaired and was found guilty Nov. 3 in North Royalton Mayor's Court. Bailey had a blood-alcohol content of .147 and officers found marijuana in his pickup truck.

"It's an unfortunate incident, a mistake that I made,'' Bailey said at the time. "It's unfortunate that I let the team down, a distraction to my teammates and things like that. So it's a mistake that I made. I've got to own up to it, and hopefully we'll be able to work past it."

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...art_river_index
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/16/16 01:31 PM
Originally Posted By: ThatGuy
General thoughts

The offensive line has given our QBs plenty of time, more often than not.

The bad plays, where it was the olines fault, get magnified, and talked about more often, making it seem like it happens more.

Our stable of QBs have ranging from occasionally to consistently had a "good" pocket, with enough time to get rid of the ball. They usually have chosen to hold on to it, whether due to lack of confidence, or trying to make a bigger play.

You cold trade up and draft 5 brand new HOF lineman, but if the QB sucks (ours do), or the WRs can't get open (I think they are), or the RB runs right into a wall of people (Sup Trent)

Then they are going to look worse than they are.

Honestly, how many times a game do you find yourself yelling at the TV because te QB is just standing there holding the ball? How do you think the lineman feel knowing they have to hold off DLineman for an unknown amount of time?

I'm not saying don't draft or sign anyone. I am not saying that. Just to be clear, I didnt, wont, and am NOT saying not to try to improve the oline if you can..

My general thought is that, if you improve the QB play, just to average (still waiting for that) then the line would look better than it does in all facets of the game..


I can get behind that line of thinking because I can see those things on the field.

I would add that I think a big issue for the OL has been the revolving door at the interior spots. That group hasn't really gotten a chance to settle in since very early in the season - and even then for a very short time. Those guys need to be in synch and the C needs to understand the line calls - I'm not sure either of those things have happened with any consistency yet this year. Who really knows if some of those guys (meaning Drango, Cooper, and now Erving) are legit or not?

Outside of seeing how RG3 plays, I'm most interested in seeing what we have with the OL of Thomas-Drango-Erving-Cooper-Pasztor and then watching for updates on Bitonio, Greco and Reiter.

Like you and others, I think the OL play has been better than given credit. We could use another tackle and the future of S Coleman could very well be the linchpin for the OL and how we attack the position in the draft and FA.
Posted By: eotab Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/16/16 03:55 PM
Keep in mind that post was not including the last game vs. Bengals.

Erving had another solid game...some saying his best to date. That is called Progressing. Which is good and when it starts (due to getting it) it comes in leaps and bounds. Note 4 games ago I was down on Erving as I didn't see any progress. Now I'm not...still doesn't mean its set in ROCK. Just went from NOTHING to Hope.

Meanwhile Cooper had a very good game which surprised me and note he was a very high draft pick. So possibly its not a fluke. This is good cause I don't think Greco will be back...he might be in that come back after 10 games thing???

Bitonio should be just about getting ready.

As for my opinion I have been saying we need a Slobberknocker RT for years and that was with Schwartz doing well here. Note with Schwartz I stated a First rounder would be necessary to upgrade on him. To upgrade on Pasztor I don't think it has to be with one of our First rounders. Possibly one of the 2nd rounders? I have no clue how Shon Coleman will emerge from the off season. He came to us nursing an injury still and lost too much time in training camp and there just is not much time for OL cause of the NFL Players Agreement.


Priority I was talking about was the First or 2nd rounds...although if a slobber knocker - I'm there.

My thought process and I apologize as I expect all to READ MY MIND...lol laugh
I WANT TO BUILD A KICK BUTT AWESOME DEFENSE!!! I think that is the way to go right now. To me that is my priority as a fan...we aren't Desperate on the OL if Erving continues to Progress and Cooper was not a figment of my imagination.
Thanks for the OL discussion...I love my Big Fatties!
jmho
Posted By: PastorMarc Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/16/16 06:13 PM
I think the OL is fixable with Bitonio and Greco coming back from injury along with BIG JOE, Pasztor, Coleman, Reiter, and Drango, I have NO CONFIDENCE in Erving NONE tsktsk I would Draft a Center as high as the 2nd Rd. with Reiter as a very viable backup or starter to begin with and would add another RT ... JMHO thumbsup
Posted By: drobs Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/16/16 06:43 PM
I think we have more glaring needs than C and Erving has shown improvement. First half of the season I agreed he probably wasn't the answer but I think the light is coming on. Compared to last year it's night and day. I say let's see where he gets. I think the secondary is more pressing but that's just my 2c laugh
Posted By: Swish Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/16/16 07:11 PM
could Erving in the O line look better because RG3 wasn't back there trying to text his mom like Cody and Josh were?

i mean RG3 came back and our running game magically reappeared.

he also didn't take anywhere near as many shots as we're use to seeing Cody and Josh take.
Posted By: HotBYoungTurk Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/16/16 08:28 PM
Originally Posted By: Swish
could Erving in the O line look better because RG3 wasn't back there trying to text his mom like Cody and Josh were?

i mean RG3 came back and our running game magically reappeared.

he also didn't take anywhere near as many shots as we're use to seeing Cody and Josh take.


From what I saw, there were a ton of plays where RG3 didnt throw the ball quick, and pulled a Cody and held the ball longer than he needed.

I also though that Rg3 took nothing but shots. On the gameday thread, I mentioned that when we excelled, we kept the play calling simple (easy, short routes to move chains).
Posted By: Swish Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/16/16 08:52 PM
I'm talkng him taking shots from defensive hits.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/16/16 09:20 PM
I must agree with you bout building the D first. Not necessarily because that's my desire, but because that is the hand that appears to being dealt to us.

We need help all over the place but in this draft, the D seems to be the most talent in this draft. So according to my line of thinking, we can get much better talent on the D side of the ball in this draft than the O side of the ball.

Since both sides of the ball need so much help, I'd prefer to draft BPA and that appears to be a D heavy draft. Common sense dictates we draft the best players available and D certainly seems like the way to go in doing that.
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/16/16 09:50 PM
Pit I agree we need help on both sides of the ball but I don't think as much on O. We do need a qb and another OLinemen possibly a TE but with everyone coming back healthy we may be ok. Before all the injuries we were moving the ball fairly well. With the pick-up of Darius Jackson we may be set at RB. JMO.
Posted By: mac Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/21/16 02:21 PM
This is an interesting read that hopefully some within the Browns organization read. This is how the Cowboys built their offense and IMO, is a blueprint to be followed or copied if any NFL franchise is looking to build their team to win.

__________________________________________________
"None of your skilled position players on offense (qb,rb,wr,te) will play to their potential if your team does not have an offensive line capable of protecting your QB and opening holes for your RBs."
_________________________________________________


The most important unit on a football team continues to be the five offensive linemen.

The Cowboys are just the latest example to prove that theory.

...a good read below.



How Dallas built the NFL's 1,586-pound MVP

David Fleming
ESPN Senior Writer
9:00 AM ET
link

Dak Prescott settles under center, makes eye contact with the middle linebacker one last time to get his bearings, then taps his right foot on the turf, signaling for tight end Jason Witten to come in motion. It's late on a Thursday night inside the glimmering Nordic temple of U.S. Bank Stadium in Minneapolis, and the Cowboys are clinging to a 14-9 lead. They have the ball on their own 46 with 6:37 remaining, but you can feel it: After struggling most of the night in this Week 13 matchup against a top-five defense, the Dallas offense needs to make something happen, and fast.

A few months ago, of course, nothing the Cowboys did in December was supposed to have any consequence whatsoever. In August, Tony Romo hurt his back and was replaced by Prescott, the fourth-round draft choice and eighth quarterback picked overall. So much for the season. Then, in keeping with the overall theme of 2016 -- "Wait, what?" -- Prescott turned out to be nothing short of extraordinary. With him and sensational rookie running back Ezekiel Elliott, the Cowboys somehow went from zero expectations to the projected top seed in the NFC.

_________________________________________
"The Dallas offensive line is unbelievable. They're by far the best in the league that I've seen."
Vikings coach Mike Zimmer
___________________________________________

But the real reason for Dallas' unlikely run is its five wide-bodies up front, a unit so dominant there has been talk of naming the entire group the 2016 NFL MVP. It's now in perfect sync at the start of this critical drive. As Prescott's right foot hits the turf, Witten's right hand lifts off the ground. He moves with purpose behind the line, first passing right tackle Doug Free, then right guard Zack Martin, center Travis Frederick and left guard Ronald Leary, before coming to a stop just behind the outside shoulder of left tackle Tyron Smith, the man who set this juggernaut into motion.

It's time for something big.

In 2011, just three months after he was officially named Cowboys head coach, Jason Garrett persuaded Jerry Jones to select the 6-foot-5, 320-pound Smith with the ninth overall pick. The decision signaled a big shift in Dallas. Jones, himself a former lineman and co-captain of the 1964 Arkansas national championship team, went his first 22 seasons as owner and GM in Dallas without using a single first-round pick on a blocker. In Jones' defense, the Great Wall of Dallas, the dominant and deeply troubled line that anchored the Cowboys' three Super Bowl wins in the 1990s, was for the most part a collection of misfits and castoffs. What's more, the current proliferation of the spread offense and quick-release passing attacks is perceived to have devalued linemen.

But Smith, a USC product, was an easy sell for Garrett because Dallas had line problems. As a rookie, he played right tackle. That season Free, a fourth-round pick in 2007 out of Northern Illinois, became a liability at left tackle, taking too many penalties and exposing Romo to big blindside hits.

In 2012, Free shifted to the right side, where his build and mauler mentality were a much better fit. That cleared room for the chiseled, explosive Smith -- who has a 36-inch reach, the agile feet of a power forward and a bench press that teammates claim is north of 600 pounds -- to move from right to left. "If you went into a computer lab and tried to create the perfect prototype tackle, it would be him," says Ross Tucker, a former NFL lineman-turned-analyst. "Smith does things to guys -- toys with them, humbles them -- that you honestly shouldn't be able to do to people in the NFL."

Smith was even able to move the most powerful and stubborn guy in the NFL: Jones. Smith made the Pro Bowl three times in his first five seasons, and his success helped persuade the Cowboys -- and Jones -- to take Frederick out of Wisconsin with the 31st overall pick in 2013, a move that was widely criticized. Since then, Frederick has become an immovable force at the bottom of the pocket, a presence that has allowed Prescott, when pressured on the edge, to step up cleanly, keep his eyes downfield and deliver the ball on target. Frederick also makes the pre-snap reads and blocking calls that are key to the Cowboys' zone-blocking scheme.

"Travis' mind is a huge asset that most people overlook with this scheme," Dallas backup tackle Emmett Cleary says. "With zone blocking, the devil's in the details, and we have one of the smartest centers in the league, which means we don't get tricked or mis-ID'd with assignments very often."

A year after selecting Frederick, Dallas was on the clock with the 16th pick when, according to Cowboys lore, Stephen Jones, Jerry's son and the director of player personnel, had to climb over a war room table to prevent his dad from making the colossal blunder of selecting Johnny Manziel.

The Cowboys actually had their sights set on linebacker Ryan Shazier, who went to the Steelers with the 15th pick. Choosing next, Jerry did suggest Manziel, but eventually Dallas "settled" on Notre Dame's Martin, whose freakishly perfect blocking technique and fundamentals rival Frederick's mental acumen and Smith's physical gifts. "Everyone is tied together in our system," says Martin, the first Cowboy in 45 years to be named All-Pro as a rookie. "That's what makes this line special."
__________________________________________________
"Everyone is tied together in our system. That's what makes this line special."
All-Pro right guard Zack Martin
__________________________________________________

Jones seemed to finally grasp that concept by 2015. The team re-signed Free to a three-year contract and signed LSU's La'el Collins, the SEC's top lineman in 2014, who went undrafted because of off-the-field issues. Collins took over as the starting left guard in 2015. Leary, signed in 2012 as an undrafted free agent for $390,000, responded to his demotion by demanding a trade and then sitting out most of the team's voluntary offseason workout program. Instead of trading Leary for peanuts, though, Jones kept him to provide depth in the trenches, a rare luxury in today's NFL.

Sure enough, in Week 3, when Collins suffered a toe injury, Leary stepped in with the extra incentive of knowing he was auditioning for his next big contract. For the time being, Leary will earn just $2.5 million in 2016, which has helped make the Dallas line -- with a total price tag of $20.9 million, according to ESPN's Roster Management System -- the NFL's biggest bargain. "The Dallas offensive line is unbelievable," Vikings coach Mike Zimmer says. "They're by far the best in the league that I've seen."

For far less than what the Vikings pay their line ($31.6 million), the Cowboys have allowed just 24 sacks on Prescott, the NFL's second-highest-rated QB (81.5 in Total QBR, behind only Tom Brady). They've also plowed the way for Elliott to take a run at Eric Dickerson's rookie rushing record of 1,808 yards, set in 1983. (Zeke needs 258 yards over his final two games to break the mark.) The Dallas offense now dictates game tempo, chews up the clock and helps keep the suspect Dallas D off the field. Says Witten: "It's like a science. It's something special to watch the way they communicate, coordinate and work together."

With the game, and its winning streak, on the line in Minnesota, Dallas turns to what has become its signature play: the wide zone counter.

The Cowboys used it against Cincinnati in Week 5 to spring Elliott untouched on a 60-yard TD run through the kind of hole that, before this game, cornerback Adam Jones said his daughter could have run through. "It's become our signature and the heart of what we do," Witten says. "We get you moving one way, then hit you hard in the other direction."

Minnesota has held strong against the Cowboys' offense so far, using stunts and varying fronts to confuse and interrupt Dallas' pre-snap blocking reads. But on this series, the Vikings open in a vanilla 4-3 under front, with their right end, tackle and nose tackle all shaded to the Cowboys' left. It's the perfect time to hit them with the wide zone counter: The Cowboys will use it to sell that the play is flowing left, setting up a devastating cutback lane to the right.

Now the guys up front need to do their job so that Elliott can do his.

To read the rest...click the link
Posted By: HotBYoungTurk Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/21/16 02:30 PM
More than one way to skin a cat...

I actually think that is our problem, and has been our problem. We have always tried to be like someone else in how we make our team.

Just acquire good talent, good coaches, and success should follow.
Posted By: PerfectSpiral Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/21/16 02:41 PM
Originally Posted By: Swish
could Erving in the O line look better because RG3 wasn't back there trying to text his mom like Cody and Josh were?

i mean RG3 came back and our running game magically reappeared.



Probably because Irving had his best day ever. The run game averaged 7 yds per carry behind Irving.

This oline is no worse than it was a year ago. Look at the numbers.

But you won't hear the experts here that want Irving gone and can't say anything positive about him now that they've blamed him for total failure, the wheels falling off, and us not being able to re-sign those guys that wanted to go somewhere else as fast as they could.
Posted By: DeputyDawg Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/21/16 03:26 PM
The Herschel Walker trade turned Dallas into a dynasty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker_trade

Players/Draft Picks Received by the Dallas Cowboys
LB Jesse Solomon
LB David Howard
CB Issiac Holt
RB Darrin Nelson (traded to San Diego after he refused to report to Dallas)
DE Alex Stewart
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1990 (21) (traded this pick along with pick (81) for pick (17) from Pittsburgh to draft Emmitt Smith)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1990 (47) (Alexander Wright)
Minnesota's 6th round pick in 1990 (158) (traded to New Orleans, who drafted James Williams)
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1991 (conditional on cutting Solomon) – (12) (Alvin Harper)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1991 (conditional on cutting Howard) – (38) (Dixon Edwards)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1992 (conditional on cutting Holt) – (37) (Darren Woodson)
Minnesota's 3rd round pick in 1992 (conditional on cutting Nelson) – (71) (traded to New England, who drafted Kevin Turner)
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1993 (conditional on cutting Stewart) – (13) (traded to Philadelphia Eagles, and then to the Houston Oilers, who drafted Brad Hopkins)[1]

Dallas hoarded draft picks for their rebuild and ended up with Troy Aikman, Emmit Smith, and Michael Irvin.

They have a great o-line now, but none of those guys have been to the Superbowl with Romo at QB, Dez Bryant at WR, and Demarco Murry at RB.

This isn't the 90's and despite having the best o-line in football, Dallas is not a dynasty yet.
Posted By: eotab Re: The Offensive Line, continued.... - 12/21/16 04:22 PM
Just don't forget DEFENSE wins championships.
Dallas' Defense has been the biggest difference this season. Oh and Murray can't hold Zeke's jock...I don't care what his stats were. No comparison!
© DawgTalkers.net