DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum The Offensive Line, continued....

Joe, bitonio, Erving, Greco, pasztor, Coleman, reiter, drango and a rook rt? That's an OL I would be OK with going into next year.

Doesn't Greco need some surgery that could put him out for like a year?

In other news.

Based on nothing but my opinion, I think our Oline is "ok"

Erving has improved a lot recently, and I will be of the opinion that Pasztor wouldn't have looked nearly as bad early this season if our QBs just got rid of the damn ball..

Me neither. They picked Coleman as a developmental pick. They thought he had the athleticism to play, but injuries set him back. Now if Coleman's technique improves to the point where he can start over the others on the roster, the future may look bright. However, Shon has to buy in a lot to do this. If I was him, I'd be walking in Joe Thomas's shadow. I'd go everywhere that he goes. Heck, I'd even film the Joe Thomas hour. But overall, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't draft a RT this year. I think they want to draft one who has the athleticism to take over the LT spot in a decade or so. And I just don't see any tackles in the draft who have that ability in the mid rounds.

Ya tab .... 10 total ... he had 3 or 4 in the 1st half ...

Its been like that for the last 6 or 7 games ... Hue stops it without even trying it instead of making the defense prove they can stop it ...

SICKENING!

Yep. I'd say Hue is way too impatient as a Head Coach/play caller. He usually compounds our problems in games through his play calling. He wants to get even too quickly. If we get scored on, Hue is wont to call three passing plays in a row. These usually go for 3 and outs, so our gassed defense is right back on the field. This is where our opponent usually gets their field goal in, but they score no matter what. Hue then kinda recognizes that the game is a lot longer and begins to run a bit, mainly focusing on the pass still. Now, I don't necessarily need him to turn the game of football into ground war, a la Schottenheimer, but he needs to start running more in the first quarter. Taking some time off the clock and beating up the other team's front 7 would really help out a defense that doesn't deserve to be out there.

And don't be surprised if this FO drafts an o lineman with every pick because it's just as likely as anything mac invents.

It'll be one he'll of a return from injury if that's the lineup in training camp.

Agree with some but disagree with OL not being a priority. Maybe not a 1st round priority but depth on this line has been slim. Drango and Colman may end up becoming good depth and or starters, but there is really no depth at LT or C.

Pasztor to me is a G and I believe he played well at G last year when called upon. Pasztor's value is at G and RT depth but really does not serve well as a fulltime starter.

Erving has looked better these last three games at C, but he is still far from being a player I feel comfortable putting a franchise QB behind. I do not think he will fare well at RT either because I think the speed rushers will make him look foolish.

Greco is a guy I like, he is versatile and pretty solid with consistency.

Bitonio SP seems to miss large amounts of time, when healthy he is as solid as they come but he seems to be prone to injury.

Much of this debate depends on how well Drango and Colman progress and if they can become long term starters.

I will not say that OL is a must 1st round selection, but I do think this team needs to keep drafting OL in the mid rounds till they find the correct group that can open holes and protect the QB.

Eotab go here for the Cinci game..it's free streaming replays.

http://www.nflfullhd.com/3386-2/

Where has this been all my life..

I don't agree w/everything you said, but that is a damn fine post.

Please post more. We need the help.

General thoughts

The offensive line has given our QBs plenty of time, more often than not.

The bad plays, where it was the olines fault, get magnified, and talked about more often, making it seem like it happens more.

Our stable of QBs have ranging from occasionally to consistently had a "good" pocket, with enough time to get rid of the ball. They usually have chosen to hold on to it, whether due to lack of confidence, or trying to make a bigger play.

You cold trade up and draft 5 brand new HOF lineman, but if the QB sucks (ours do), or the WRs can't get open (I think they are), or the RB runs right into a wall of people (Sup Trent)

Then they are going to look worse than they are.

Honestly, how many times a game do you find yourself yelling at the TV because te QB is just standing there holding the ball? How do you think the lineman feel knowing they have to hold off DLineman for an unknown amount of time?

I'm not saying don't draft or sign anyone. I am not saying that. Just to be clear, I didnt, wont, and am NOT saying not to try to improve the oline if you can..

My general thought is that, if you improve the QB play, just to average (still waiting for that) then the line would look better than it does in all facets of the game..

Browns' Alvin Bailey suspended 2 games without pay by NFL for earlier OVI

BEREA, Ohio -- Browns guard Alvin Bailey is just now paying the price for his OVI arrest in September. Bailey, 25, was suspended without pay for two games by the NFL Wednesday under its substance-abuse policy.

He'll sit out Sunday's game against the Bills and the home game against San Diego on Christmas Eve. He'll be eligible to return to the active roster on Christmas Day and might be available for the season finale New Year's Day in Pittsburgh.

Bailey will lose two game checks, which amounts to $117,647. He's the second Browns player to be suspended in less than a week. Rookie receiver Jordan Payton was suspended Friday for four games for violating the NFL's policy on performance-enhancing drugs.

Browns coach Hue Jackson said he told Payton: "Don't make stupid mistakes." As for Bailey, he said, "Obviously we've dealt with this issue before. We'll move on from there.''

Bailey pleaded no contest to operating a vehicle impaired and was found guilty Nov. 3 in North Royalton Mayor's Court. Bailey had a blood-alcohol content of .147 and officers found marijuana in his pickup truck.

"It's an unfortunate incident, a mistake that I made,'' Bailey said at the time. "It's unfortunate that I let the team down, a distraction to my teammates and things like that. So it's a mistake that I made. I've got to own up to it, and hopefully we'll be able to work past it."

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...art_river_index

I can get behind that line of thinking because I can see those things on the field.

I would add that I think a big issue for the OL has been the revolving door at the interior spots. That group hasn't really gotten a chance to settle in since very early in the season - and even then for a very short time. Those guys need to be in synch and the C needs to understand the line calls - I'm not sure either of those things have happened with any consistency yet this year. Who really knows if some of those guys (meaning Drango, Cooper, and now Erving) are legit or not?

Outside of seeing how RG3 plays, I'm most interested in seeing what we have with the OL of Thomas-Drango-Erving-Cooper-Pasztor and then watching for updates on Bitonio, Greco and Reiter.

Like you and others, I think the OL play has been better than given credit. We could use another tackle and the future of S Coleman could very well be the linchpin for the OL and how we attack the position in the draft and FA.

I think the OL is fixable with Bitonio and Greco coming back from injury along with BIG JOE, Pasztor, Coleman, Reiter, and Drango, I have NO CONFIDENCE in Erving NONE I would Draft a Center as high as the 2nd Rd. with Reiter as a very viable backup or starter to begin with and would add another RT ... JMHO

I think we have more glaring needs than C and Erving has shown improvement. First half of the season I agreed he probably wasn't the answer but I think the light is coming on. Compared to last year it's night and day. I say let's see where he gets. I think the secondary is more pressing but that's just my 2c

could Erving in the O line look better because RG3 wasn't back there trying to text his mom like Cody and Josh were?

i mean RG3 came back and our running game magically reappeared.

he also didn't take anywhere near as many shots as we're use to seeing Cody and Josh take.

From what I saw, there were a ton of plays where RG3 didnt throw the ball quick, and pulled a Cody and held the ball longer than he needed.

I also though that Rg3 took nothing but shots. On the gameday thread, I mentioned that when we excelled, we kept the play calling simple (easy, short routes to move chains).

I'm talkng him taking shots from defensive hits.

I must agree with you bout building the D first. Not necessarily because that's my desire, but because that is the hand that appears to being dealt to us.

We need help all over the place but in this draft, the D seems to be the most talent in this draft. So according to my line of thinking, we can get much better talent on the D side of the ball in this draft than the O side of the ball.

Since both sides of the ball need so much help, I'd prefer to draft BPA and that appears to be a D heavy draft. Common sense dictates we draft the best players available and D certainly seems like the way to go in doing that.

Pit I agree we need help on both sides of the ball but I don't think as much on O. We do need a qb and another OLinemen possibly a TE but with everyone coming back healthy we may be ok. Before all the injuries we were moving the ball fairly well. With the pick-up of Darius Jackson we may be set at RB. JMO.

This is an interesting read that hopefully some within the Browns organization read. This is how the Cowboys built their offense and IMO, is a blueprint to be followed or copied if any NFL franchise is looking to build their team to win.

__________________________________________________
"None of your skilled position players on offense (qb,rb,wr,te) will play to their potential if your team does not have an offensive line capable of protecting your QB and opening holes for your RBs."
_________________________________________________


The most important unit on a football team continues to be the five offensive linemen.

The Cowboys are just the latest example to prove that theory.

...a good read below.


How Dallas built the NFL's 1,586-pound MVP

David Fleming
ESPN Senior Writer
9:00 AM ET
link

Dak Prescott settles under center, makes eye contact with the middle linebacker one last time to get his bearings, then taps his right foot on the turf, signaling for tight end Jason Witten to come in motion. It's late on a Thursday night inside the glimmering Nordic temple of U.S. Bank Stadium in Minneapolis, and the Cowboys are clinging to a 14-9 lead. They have the ball on their own 46 with 6:37 remaining, but you can feel it: After struggling most of the night in this Week 13 matchup against a top-five defense, the Dallas offense needs to make something happen, and fast.

A few months ago, of course, nothing the Cowboys did in December was supposed to have any consequence whatsoever. In August, Tony Romo hurt his back and was replaced by Prescott, the fourth-round draft choice and eighth quarterback picked overall. So much for the season. Then, in keeping with the overall theme of 2016 -- "Wait, what?" -- Prescott turned out to be nothing short of extraordinary. With him and sensational rookie running back Ezekiel Elliott, the Cowboys somehow went from zero expectations to the projected top seed in the NFC.

_________________________________________
"The Dallas offensive line is unbelievable. They're by far the best in the league that I've seen."
Vikings coach Mike Zimmer
___________________________________________

But the real reason for Dallas' unlikely run is its five wide-bodies up front, a unit so dominant there has been talk of naming the entire group the 2016 NFL MVP. It's now in perfect sync at the start of this critical drive. As Prescott's right foot hits the turf, Witten's right hand lifts off the ground. He moves with purpose behind the line, first passing right tackle Doug Free, then right guard Zack Martin, center Travis Frederick and left guard Ronald Leary, before coming to a stop just behind the outside shoulder of left tackle Tyron Smith, the man who set this juggernaut into motion.

It's time for something big.

In 2011, just three months after he was officially named Cowboys head coach, Jason Garrett persuaded Jerry Jones to select the 6-foot-5, 320-pound Smith with the ninth overall pick. The decision signaled a big shift in Dallas. Jones, himself a former lineman and co-captain of the 1964 Arkansas national championship team, went his first 22 seasons as owner and GM in Dallas without using a single first-round pick on a blocker. In Jones' defense, the Great Wall of Dallas, the dominant and deeply troubled line that anchored the Cowboys' three Super Bowl wins in the 1990s, was for the most part a collection of misfits and castoffs. What's more, the current proliferation of the spread offense and quick-release passing attacks is perceived to have devalued linemen.

But Smith, a USC product, was an easy sell for Garrett because Dallas had line problems. As a rookie, he played right tackle. That season Free, a fourth-round pick in 2007 out of Northern Illinois, became a liability at left tackle, taking too many penalties and exposing Romo to big blindside hits.

In 2012, Free shifted to the right side, where his build and mauler mentality were a much better fit. That cleared room for the chiseled, explosive Smith -- who has a 36-inch reach, the agile feet of a power forward and a bench press that teammates claim is north of 600 pounds -- to move from right to left. "If you went into a computer lab and tried to create the perfect prototype tackle, it would be him," says Ross Tucker, a former NFL lineman-turned-analyst. "Smith does things to guys -- toys with them, humbles them -- that you honestly shouldn't be able to do to people in the NFL."

Smith was even able to move the most powerful and stubborn guy in the NFL: Jones. Smith made the Pro Bowl three times in his first five seasons, and his success helped persuade the Cowboys -- and Jones -- to take Frederick out of Wisconsin with the 31st overall pick in 2013, a move that was widely criticized. Since then, Frederick has become an immovable force at the bottom of the pocket, a presence that has allowed Prescott, when pressured on the edge, to step up cleanly, keep his eyes downfield and deliver the ball on target. Frederick also makes the pre-snap reads and blocking calls that are key to the Cowboys' zone-blocking scheme.

"Travis' mind is a huge asset that most people overlook with this scheme," Dallas backup tackle Emmett Cleary says. "With zone blocking, the devil's in the details, and we have one of the smartest centers in the league, which means we don't get tricked or mis-ID'd with assignments very often."

A year after selecting Frederick, Dallas was on the clock with the 16th pick when, according to Cowboys lore, Stephen Jones, Jerry's son and the director of player personnel, had to climb over a war room table to prevent his dad from making the colossal blunder of selecting Johnny Manziel.

The Cowboys actually had their sights set on linebacker Ryan Shazier, who went to the Steelers with the 15th pick. Choosing next, Jerry did suggest Manziel, but eventually Dallas "settled" on Notre Dame's Martin, whose freakishly perfect blocking technique and fundamentals rival Frederick's mental acumen and Smith's physical gifts. "Everyone is tied together in our system," says Martin, the first Cowboy in 45 years to be named All-Pro as a rookie. "That's what makes this line special."
__________________________________________________
"Everyone is tied together in our system. That's what makes this line special."
All-Pro right guard Zack Martin
__________________________________________________

Jones seemed to finally grasp that concept by 2015. The team re-signed Free to a three-year contract and signed LSU's La'el Collins, the SEC's top lineman in 2014, who went undrafted because of off-the-field issues. Collins took over as the starting left guard in 2015. Leary, signed in 2012 as an undrafted free agent for $390,000, responded to his demotion by demanding a trade and then sitting out most of the team's voluntary offseason workout program. Instead of trading Leary for peanuts, though, Jones kept him to provide depth in the trenches, a rare luxury in today's NFL.

Sure enough, in Week 3, when Collins suffered a toe injury, Leary stepped in with the extra incentive of knowing he was auditioning for his next big contract. For the time being, Leary will earn just $2.5 million in 2016, which has helped make the Dallas line -- with a total price tag of $20.9 million, according to ESPN's Roster Management System -- the NFL's biggest bargain. "The Dallas offensive line is unbelievable," Vikings coach Mike Zimmer says. "They're by far the best in the league that I've seen."

For far less than what the Vikings pay their line ($31.6 million), the Cowboys have allowed just 24 sacks on Prescott, the NFL's second-highest-rated QB (81.5 in Total QBR, behind only Tom Brady). They've also plowed the way for Elliott to take a run at Eric Dickerson's rookie rushing record of 1,808 yards, set in 1983. (Zeke needs 258 yards over his final two games to break the mark.) The Dallas offense now dictates game tempo, chews up the clock and helps keep the suspect Dallas D off the field. Says Witten: "It's like a science. It's something special to watch the way they communicate, coordinate and work together."

With the game, and its winning streak, on the line in Minnesota, Dallas turns to what has become its signature play: the wide zone counter.

The Cowboys used it against Cincinnati in Week 5 to spring Elliott untouched on a 60-yard TD run through the kind of hole that, before this game, cornerback Adam Jones said his daughter could have run through. "It's become our signature and the heart of what we do," Witten says. "We get you moving one way, then hit you hard in the other direction."

Minnesota has held strong against the Cowboys' offense so far, using stunts and varying fronts to confuse and interrupt Dallas' pre-snap blocking reads. But on this series, the Vikings open in a vanilla 4-3 under front, with their right end, tackle and nose tackle all shaded to the Cowboys' left. It's the perfect time to hit them with the wide zone counter: The Cowboys will use it to sell that the play is flowing left, setting up a devastating cutback lane to the right.

Now the guys up front need to do their job so that Elliott can do his.

To read the rest...click the link

More than one way to skin a cat...

I actually think that is our problem, and has been our problem. We have always tried to be like someone else in how we make our team.

Just acquire good talent, good coaches, and success should follow.

Probably because Irving had his best day ever. The run game averaged 7 yds per carry behind Irving.

This oline is no worse than it was a year ago. Look at the numbers.

But you won't hear the experts here that want Irving gone and can't say anything positive about him now that they've blamed him for total failure, the wheels falling off, and us not being able to re-sign those guys that wanted to go somewhere else as fast as they could.

The Herschel Walker trade turned Dallas into a dynasty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herschel_Walker_trade

Players/Draft Picks Received by the Dallas Cowboys
LB Jesse Solomon
LB David Howard
CB Issiac Holt
RB Darrin Nelson (traded to San Diego after he refused to report to Dallas)
DE Alex Stewart
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1990 (21) (traded this pick along with pick (81) for pick (17) from Pittsburgh to draft Emmitt Smith)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1990 (47) (Alexander Wright)
Minnesota's 6th round pick in 1990 (158) (traded to New Orleans, who drafted James Williams)
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1991 (conditional on cutting Solomon) – (12) (Alvin Harper)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1991 (conditional on cutting Howard) – (38) (Dixon Edwards)
Minnesota's 2nd round pick in 1992 (conditional on cutting Holt) – (37) (Darren Woodson)
Minnesota's 3rd round pick in 1992 (conditional on cutting Nelson) – (71) (traded to New England, who drafted Kevin Turner)
Minnesota's 1st round pick in 1993 (conditional on cutting Stewart) – (13) (traded to Philadelphia Eagles, and then to the Houston Oilers, who drafted Brad Hopkins)[1]

Dallas hoarded draft picks for their rebuild and ended up with Troy Aikman, Emmit Smith, and Michael Irvin.

They have a great o-line now, but none of those guys have been to the Superbowl with Romo at QB, Dez Bryant at WR, and Demarco Murry at RB.

This isn't the 90's and despite having the best o-line in football, Dallas is not a dynasty yet.