Without knowing the details of his replacement, obviously, this is a mistake. Opening up a hole on the roster is not a great look.

The guarantees are what are most important but $10 million a year is not a huge price to pay to for an above average linebacker. It seems the team doesn't value Schobert as much as most of us do on here.

(My guess is that the new front office views Schobert's position as one of the most replaceable on defense.)

well .. we do know, via report by schobert, the previous FO did not even talk to him about a contract. So let's not make this another "It's all the fault of the analysts" fight. It is what it is.. He has a price more than what the FO wants to pay, and could explain why we drafted 2 Linebackers last year.

It seems like the plan all along was to have Mack Wilson and Sione Takitaki take over for Joe Schobert and Christian Kirksey. I don't know if that is/was a good plan or not.

I would hope we won't rely on those two players to play vital roles on the defense going forward.

dunno how i feel about this. he's a pro bowl LB and you cant just find guys like him.

SAM 56 Harvey, Willie CF19 59 Young, Trevon SF19
MLB 53 Schobert, Joe 16/4 44 Takitaki, Sione 19/3 55 Davis, Tae W/NYG
WLB 58 Kirksey, Christian 14/3 51 Wilson, Mack 19/5 48 Grace, Jermaine SF19

Sigh.. thats our depth chart at LB. Considering that Kirksey is most likely out.. this would mean we are intentionally creating holes

I wouldn't say intentionally creating holes. Schobert has agency in signing as well. It would be intentional if they cut Schobert while under contract.

With that said, we have a huge hole at linebacker.

We’ll see how it plays out. He’s certainly been solid and made plays, though I’m not sure how valuable the FO views his positional WAR

So we're back to being cheap, and uninterested in quality players. I just love these analytical guys

I like Joe Schobert but the run defense has been a real issue with this team. Maybe the FO wants to get a more run stuffing MLB?

j/c:

$10 million doesn't seem out-of-line. Contracts keep going up. I had thought that Joe's agent was asking for $14-15 million plus per year. This is probably going to turn out to be another bad move, similar to what the analytic guys did their first time around. Losing "smart" players is not a good thing.

He's not worth that. He's good but he isn't anywhere near elite. Sure, I'd like the Browns to resign him. But not at that price. If some other team pays him like that, good for him. I wish him the best. If he doesn't get that big offer perhaps he will come back at a reasonable level.

Wasn't Schobert improving year to year ?
Oh I get it the Browns won't pay a player
That's improving year to year but they will overpay for bums who have seen better days like
KENNY BRITT.

Bingo.

Watch...it won't just be another team that he signs with. It will be a contender. So he'll be good enough for a contender but not the Browns.

This season is going to be worst than last. A total catastrophe.

J/C

I like Joe Schobert, he has been a glue guy in this organization. I would like him to stay on the roster but I do not think he's worth $10 million per year. He has deficiencies, they show up in his run defense, that's common knowledge on this board.

Don't lay this at the feet of the new FO. Dorsey poisoned this well more than a year ago. The crap that has splashed on their shoes comes from a pile that Dorsey left on his way out. The new guys at least opened up communication with Schobert's camp. Schobert is choosing to walk. This is on him. I wish him luck but he is not irreplaceable.

Mitchel Schwartz says: "That sounds familiar."

Here’s the thing. I totally get why an analytics person might not value JS so highly and I agree he’s probably going to be over paid by someone else. He’s solid, not great. He sort of snuck into the pro bowl if I recall via injuries to others. But he has things that don’t show up on spreadsheet. He’s a valuable locker room presence (supposedly) and a play caller on defense. As Verse said, losing smart players is not, um.. smart. I think you sometimes over pay those guys a bit on purpose. What were we thinking? $8.5mm? Not to get so fast and loose with the cap but seriously, $10mm is not a crazy number. And you gotta know someone else is going to pay him. If we’re bluffing, we’re going to lose.

My comparable in this situation is Alex Mack. An above-average player decided to take a deal elsewhere. Enter JC Tretter. It wasn't seamless Mack exited 2016, Tretter came in 2017. Still, he's been solid for the Browns. Just as likely as an outcome as the Schwartz situation.

j/c:

One thing to consider. A lot of LBers only play on certain downs. How many guys can play on all 3 downs? Is Joe a 3-down LBer? Will we need 2 guys to replace him? If so, will we get more production from those two guys for less than $10 million?

I imagine we'll see Kirksey and Mack on passing downs (when not in dime) and bring in Takitaki when we go 3 LBs. Berry was here with Sashi when Kirksey got extended in 2017. His injury was a pec, so it's not like he's gonna have a massive decline in functional athleticism. He's only 27.

Wait a sec, what makes you think Kirksey will be on this team? 10 mil is too much for Schobert but 8.8 mil is okay for Kirko (who hasn’t really played the past two years?). I’d be under the assumption Kirksey is gone

This is a great question. Schobert definitely plays all three downs (whether he plays any of them well is a different question). He played nearly 100% of the snaps for our offense last year. Losing him is/would be a major blow. We don't have anyone on the roster that can replace him.

My guess is that the front office see someone in free agency that they see as close to Schobert's equal for a much cheaper price. I hope they are right.

On the other hand you can't just overpay guys because it will open and hole.

The team is in a tough spot.

My assumption is that he's on the team until he isn't. If the number comes in at 10, maybe Joe is back. Mary Kay was probably just throwing something out there to see if it stuck, and it was 10-plus. I'm guessing someone goes higher.

Familiar?

So...Joe is signing a contract with another team for less money than we offered him?

Mack and Kirko bout to do work!

I dunno...Kirksey's cap hit in each of the next two years is approx $10 MILLION. His 2020 Dead Cap is $2.4

I don't think he's on the team in 2020 at that $10 mil cap hit. JMO.

J/c

I would think if we don’t want to pay Schobert that much we probably don’t think Kirko is worth close to that either. Not sure what his cap hit would be to release him, but we may be in line to have a facelift at LB

As was pointed out earlier, Dorsey wasn't going to sign him, so your point it very jaded.

Just don't understand the love for Schobert...he was the signal caller on a crappy, soft defense...whoopie...he rarely if ever made a game changing play.

I for one want to see an entirely new LB core....good tackling LB's that like to hit people.

Totally agree. He makes alot of his tackles 5-10 yards downfield

The problem with hiring Andrew Berry as the GM, is the Browns won't be able to sign quality players. Dorsey was able to pull of trades for OBJ and Landry. Getting Vernon was a bad move, and the Tyrod Taylor trade was a horrendous decision.

A reporter on CBS said by letting go Vernon, Schobert and Kirskey will save $30 million in cap space, which is great, until you can't sign anyone with the money, which is exactly what Haslam wants

Schobert had several situation going against him. Number one is the scheme he has played in had him out of position on so many plays ( not his fault ),, Second he is not physical enough to play a snobber knocker Middle backer.. ( I guess not his fault ) I you watch his play , you can't help but see how easy Guards and TE's moved him.. If you are a DC. , Is this the guy you want playing MLB in YOUR Scheme ??

So Hoodie skipped the combine to scout and personally workout DE/OLB Tyshun Rider from Middle Tennessee St

SSDY - The more things change the more they stay the same.

I’ve got zero problems with this ... Joe has a fairly big hole in his game ...

I’ll give these guys a few years before determining how “analytics” based there moves are ...

I know one thing for sure ... analytics has to be almost thrown out the window if we ever want any top tier FA’s ... but the 1st time around with the analytics crew they way overpaid for Zietler at the time ... and that’s a good thing .... you want a top tier dude your gonna way overpay ...

Some will get their chops broken every time over the fact the menZas STILL THINK VG IS OVERPAID ... ...

Browns and Packers are planning joint practices for the Summer.

You can count on wherever Schobert lands, they will play the Browns in 2020. NFL loves their story lines.

Remember the source of this. MKC isn't the most reliable.

Opponents are already on paper, teams won't sign or not sign Schobert based on whether they play the Browns in 2020.

J/C I dont have any problem with the front office allowing Joe to test the FA waters. Like others have posted, our run defense has been crappy and he has been part of that equation. If we take a hard look at our division every team is a power rushing team. I believe in order to win our division we will need LB's that can get downhill and make tackles at or behind the line. I don't think Joe is that guy, for that matter neither is Kirksey. Taktaki is a former D lineman, I think he is more of what they want as a LB. I remember Eliot Wolf talking about him at length and stating that when he hit people they never fell forward. I think Mack is more like Joe in coverage. I believe we will address this issue in FA and the draft.

LOL. yeah shes a copy and paster, not a reporter

You obviously arent grasping the point. The examples are countless, on when a player leaves a team, he plays his former team the next year. Go look it up for yourself if you dont believe me. NFL loves their story lines

Alright. Yep. The NFL will make sure only teams that play the Browns next year are allowed to sign Joe. You do realize our opponents are already determined for next year, right?

I don't believe either of these things are true. But if so, I'd wonder what proof there is to prove them.

For not knowing much about analytics, you sure know an awful lot about analytics.

None, zero, zip, nadda, aucun, ninguna, nessuna, keiner, ayikho, and nemo just to name a few.

I understand 0 + 0 = 0 and even more complex math than that ...

Others on the other hand ...

J/C

The player comments about Schobert are telling. They don’t have to say anything, but seem outspoken about what he is as a player

You must not be Italian, you forgot stugats and squadoosh.

Yeah, they won more games in the past two seasons than they did in many years. That must have really left a pile to step in on their shoes.

If you were going into your third HC in two years you might too.

It was pointed out but may not be accurate.

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/browns-release-veteran-lb-christian-kirksey

Releasing Christian Kirksey is not a surprise but it is sad. He was a clear leader on the team that was all the way bought in. The fact of the matter is that his production (and health) no longer matched his salary. Football sucks sometimes.

In releasing Kirksey our cap space went from $61,964,940 to $68,129,940.

And the beat goes on.

Absolutely. Good guy and I hope he lands on a good team and can stay healthy.

This move was predictable.

If it wasn't already clear it is now. We need linebackers. The only linebacker on the roster with any significant playing experience is Mack Wilson (and he was bad last year).

Kirksey played in nine games the last two seasons and had two major injuries.

They were freeing up extra money to sign Schobert!

Nick Kwiatkowski?

j/c:

I'm expecting Danny Trevathan.

I liked Kirksey but anyone that roots for the Browns saw this coming ... Thanks Christian I wish you well and God Bless

j/c, Now who is going to call for a Dawg Check?

This move was predictable, but with Joe hitting the open market, it was probably not so wise to cut him now.

Kirksey was never going to be back. It doesn't have anything to do with Schobert.

Yes, lets hope he is part of the plan.

j/c:

I am so thrilled that we are back to creating holes and listening to a few posters justify each move. And no, I don't use purple.

There was no hole created. We were always going to need to replace Kirksey and/or Schobert this off-season. Before the 2019 season people knew Kirksey was going to be cut.

not sure why Olivia Vernon is still on the Roster. I'd figure the new regime would get ride of him first, before Schobert or Kirksey.

It does as far as filling out the roster.

Now instead of one hole, we created another in a position of weakness already.

Because he might actually have a role to play on the 2020 team. I'd expect he still gets cut at some point.

Also, nobody got rid of Schobert. He's a free agent.

I think this front office would go with the younger guy, that being Kwiatkowski, but who knows.

Here's the comparison from PFF:

Danny Trevathan (Turns 30 on 3/24):
Overall - 61.9
Run Defense - 70.9
Pass Rush - 77.3
Coverage - 50.3
Total Snaps = 559
*Injured week 10 that ended season

Nick Kwiatkowski (Turns 27 on 5/26):
Overall - 72.6
Run Defense - 67.1
Pass Rush - 81.8
Coverage - 68.7
Total Snaps = 512
+Started 8 of 16 games this past season

We have one starting linebacker spot open (I am assuming Mack Wilson is penciled in as the starter right now). That didn't change because Kirksey got cut.

Good move. He isnt a good player. The problem Boo Berry will have is signing anyone.

There are a few posters who are going to repeat the same things a thousand times or until whenever the rest of the board accepts their version of the truth. Not sure which will occur first. LOL

If Vernon does not restructure his contract, I expect he won't be here this coming season.

We have the Cap Money and Draft Picks to fill all theses holes, I don't think it's panic time like in past years ...

Having the cap space and draft picks to fill the holes and being able to fill the holes are two different things.

Who is going to want to come to this organization other than scrubs looking to get paid?

"Hue Jackson is a leader of men"

Good grief! Now You're assuming that we will only play two LBers, and what of depth at the position?

Does our new DC play a base 4-3, or a base 4-2-5? We may need 3 staring LB.

There is also a minimum amount the Browns have to spend of the salary cap. So get ready for more Dwayne Bowes that they have to pay money to meet the minimum

Most teams only play two linebackers most of the time. Depth comes from cheap free agents and young players, not expensive veterans.

With the players available in FA and The Draft at the positions we need it is possible my friend

J/c

Kirksey wasn’t worth what he was being paid and couldnt stay healthy. Sucks cuz he’s a good guy it seems.

Trevathon a possibility?

No one plays three linebackers a majority of the time. No one.

And most teams can't defend.

Possible and likely are not the same thing.

No one is panicking. I know I am not. I'm just expressing my thoughts that this FO made the same type of decisions the last time around and went 1 and 31 and we all had to listen to all the excuses and justifications why their moves were sound.

I'm not "panicking" that Kirko won't be back. It's just irritating to listen to the same folks who criticized Dorsey all the time are now back to shouting down others who don't buy into every move the FO makes.

It doesnt take any skill to cut payroll or trade down. What matters is having the ability to sign good players and to draft well, of which the Browns havent done in 20 yrs

lol

You're like a breath of fresh air.

The Patriots, who had the best defense in the league, played only two off ball linebackers most of time (Jamie Collins and Dont'a Hightower).

Dorsey would have cut Kirksey too and the narrative today would have been "all that roster turnover!"

Thanks I was trying to think of something nice to say about him but couldn't come up with anything

Dorsey would have cut Kirksey too.

No one, that I can see, is buying into every decision the front office makes.

What about Kyle Van Noy?

On ball linebacker (edge) (and even he was off the field for 19% of the snaps).

I said Nick Kwiatkowski when discussing with cfrs.

I'll repost the comparison from PFF:

Danny Trevathan (Turns 30 on 3/24):
Overall - 61.9
Run Defense - 70.9
Pass Rush - 77.3
Coverage - 50.3
Total Snaps = 559
*Injured week 10 that ended season

Nick Kwiatkowski (Turns 27 on 5/26):
Overall - 72.6
Run Defense - 67.1
Pass Rush - 81.8
Coverage - 68.7
Total Snaps = 512
+Started 8 of 16 games this past season

Source Please I looked and couldn't find anything on minutes or percentage on and off the field I would like to see that

I don't even care about FA.

They are going to let one of our best players(Schobert) leave which is nuts considering nationally he is ranked as a Top 10 LB in the NFL and has 1 Pro Bowl and was snubbed this year which to be frank was ridiculous.

Mack Wilson is a backup at best, the guy isn't a starting quality NFL LB. He lacks a nose for the ball, is out of position all the time, takes poor angles to ball carriers, thats pretty much it.

We will have one of the worst LB cores in the NFL next year.

Berry is just a sycophant to do Truck Stop Jimmah's bidding by cutting people to save dollars so he can run the team on a bare minimum. OBJ will be kept just so they have one big name to help fill the stadium, everyone else it will be just like Sashi's regime.

Remember Berry was Browns "handpicked chief scout" to pick his players for him. Brown was a lawyer he had no idea how to evaluate talent, thats why he hired Berry....Berry is responsible for that 1-31 two year stretch and Haslam rehires this moron because all he cares about is pocketing money.

I'll be very suprised if Haslam actually lets him spend any real money to bring anyone in....your crazy if you think were even going to be remotely competitive next year....we will be lucky to win 4 games...

https://www.patspulpit.com/2020/3/5/2116...s-rushing-alone

Thanks for the read but I didn't see where he was off the field 19% of the time ?

Here's the link. You can see Van Noy was on the field for 80.7% of the total team defensive snaps. Therefore, off the field for 19.3% of the snaps.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/...nap_counts_form

So..........that proves that NE only used two off the ball LBers "most of the time?"

LoL........not getting on you, but some things are funny.

I agree about Mack WIlson ... he’s not a starting LB (nor should he be expected to become one based on his draft position and inexperience).

We either have a good plan, don’t think the position is important, or really like Taki Taki lol

I drive by the Raiders stadium every day.

It's gorgeous.

I was pointing out the math.

I know. I was messing w/cfrs. It was all in fun.

So you revising your original statement that the Patriots only played two LB'ers most of the time?

Off topic...

Soon enough, I'd be driving by the stadium and making a beeline for the casinos sports books. March Madness!

I think the big positive of Kirksey was his leadership, he was often a captain despite being IR'd...and always around coaches and hyping his teammates up.

At one point he was perhaps our best LB, but that was years ago...Unfortunately his best football might be behind him, as he is so oft-injured anymore. When he returned in 2018, he looked absolutely horrid against the Steelers I think. But his health is the gamble the next team will take...He just wasn't worth his contract anymore. Was really hoping he would lower his cap and stay, but looks like we tried.

Now hopefully we can offer Joe Scho a little bit more, with the savings...Then again, who knows.

Like I said, off ball linebackers. Kyle Van Noy plays on the edge.

Man, why are you dodging it? Either he's a third LB'er or he isn't. I mean we can play word salad all day. OLB'ers get moved to the edge sometimes. It doesn't mean they're not LB'ers.

Dont'a Hightower and Jamie Collins played off the ball. Kyle Van Noy played on the edge.

A comparison, Joe Schobert and Mack Wilson played off the ball. Myles Garrett played on the edge.

Myles Garrett, huh?

Whatever man. Keep on doing you.

PFF uses edge to make a distinction between players who rush the passer regularly and those who don't. Myles Garrett is an edge defender. Kyle Van Noy is an edge defender. Joe Schobert is a linebacker. Dont'a Hightower is a linebacker.

I should have been more clear in my previous post.

So they are 0-2 on player negotiations

I don't fault the FO for this one, I like Kirko and its a position of NEED, but we all assumed this before the data crew was here.

Too many injuries, too many dollars.

Im very concerned of the direction of the team. I have voiced my opinion on the structure this team has built concerning the organization chart.

But truth be told, I think this is a move Berry AND Dorsey make. I was and am a huge kirko fan. IDK who couldn't be a fan of the guy given his attitude and demeanor. But the football guys and data guys I think agree, the best ability is availability. Kirko has given us nothing on the field, because he cant stay healthy. If he would have restructured, I would have kept him around for a prove it year as we are thin at LB. But this is an expected move by ANY FO in the position.

I try to save my reactions for what they do to improve the roster. Roster turnover is to be expected. I agree with you on the availability issue. Unless they for some reason decide to pay Joe more on the FA market than they would have to sign him at his asking price, which makes zero sense to me, there will be two holes in the LB'er unit. People can say what they wish but Mack Wilson is not a starting caliber NFL LB'er. He just isn't.

So until I see what they do to address the issue I'll stay in wait and see mode.

The hole was already there because he wasn't on the field.
This just made it official.


On a side note, when reading the news, my brain was simultaneously thinking "what, already???" and "well, it's about time".

Everyone KNEW this was coming.

I love how everybody just assumes the FO doesn't have a plan to fill his spot. I'm in the camp that thought they should release him anyway. All he has done has been a cheerleader for two years. He is being paid like a guy who has contributed, when he hasn't been able to. I like him, and when he played he was pretty good. But losing him is no big deal.

I'm not sticking up for the FO, these are just my opinions. I too, think Dorsey would let him go also. But the team has money to fill the void. Until they make a move at the position, I'll hold my judgement of them. This does seem a little too familiar, as Vers was suggesting, so I'll wait and see their next move. I hope it isn't a repeat of before.

March Madness is basically like Christmas here. Every year a group of buddies and I take the first Thursday and Friday off and hang out at casinos all day. It's good times.

This just in: Stay stupid America! Geezus people, turn off your TVs and get informed already. SO tired of the crap that the media spreads in an effort to either affect the election cycle OR to distract us from what is REALLY going on in Washington: THEFT. Just stop already! SMH

You should take your own advice, there is a thread in EE forum specifically for you to learn. Please visit.

I know I'm in the minority here, but I'm more bummed about losing Kirksey than I was Schobert.

Gonna miss you Kirko!

Probably so. I think the difference is that Dorsey would attempt to trade Kirko or at least wait to sign his replacement before releasing him.

This FO has a history of letting guys go BEFORE they have replaced them. I don't think that is "smart." And before anyone says that Dorsey would have been unable to trade Kirko, please remember he traded stiffs like Kessler, Hogan, Kizer, and Coleman.

I am not really upset about the move, but I think it could have been handled w/more intelligence. I know there are several of you talking about availability, but are y'all willing to give me 10 to 1 odds that Kirko won't be available to play next season?

Also, the justification and excuses some make to defend every move the FO makes after they trashed Dorsey doesn't sit well w/me. As soon as I saw the phrase "off the ball" LBer, I knew what he intent was. It's a bit galling that some people think all others are incapable of reading and they prey on those who can't read very well.

No one was going to take on that contract.

If he would have taken a reasonable contract, he'd still be here.

what doesn't make sense to me... cutting players when we have the cap and no one to replace them with. Let's get players to replace players with and after, cut the dead weight. that's how the good teams do it.

we just have GM's who like to cut players with no one to replace and hope we can get lucky with the bottom of the barrel to fill needs.

I think you should go after someone other than cfrs. He's providing information on something he's obviously studied. He's more matter of fact than opinionated.

Having said that, this FO doesn't appear to have any sort of plan other than creating cap space. Schobert was a must sign, IMO. One aspect I think is important is keeping a group together. We are always changing out pieces. No one gets the opportunity to improve and grow individually or together. Everyone wants to focus on who Schobert is as a player today and pretend he won't get any better. Meanwhile, the Steelers have a group that grows together, develops together, and stays together.

I cannot stress this enough. This season is going to be a disaster.

I am not really "going after" cfrs. At least I talk to him. I won't even speak to the other guys. cfrs is intelligent. I have no problem w/him and I disagreeing about the respective FOs. I do understand language, though. Like I said before........as soon as I saw "off the ball" I knew what his intentions were.

It's not a terrible thing, but some people have different interpretations of what is proper or not in arguing your cause. I'll leave it at that and not respond again about that particular conversation. I have no problems he wants to fire back one last time. I'll end by saying not all of us are dumb. Some of us can actually read quite well.

I would like to talk about this. One of my biggest beefs w/the Analytic FO when they were here the first time was they created holes before they filled them. Now, they are back in charge and doing the same thing again.

Like I said in earlier, Dorsey would wait and try and trade a guy or replace him w/another player before cutting him. Another poster said that no one would have traded for Kirko given his contract. That might very well be true. But, why couldn't we hold onto him and a guy like Carrie until we have secured their replacements? I just think it's dumb.

It's like when we cut Haden because he didn't want to renegotiate his contract. I thought Haden was overrated by some folks on here, but you just don't cut him because his contract is higher than you think it should be and leave yourself w/out an adequate replacement. They might be "smart" in academia, but I don't think these guys get "football."

Did the Browns have to cut Kirko by a certain date to get any cap benefits?

I don't know. If so, then it would make more sense.

If he had a roster bonus, they he would have to go before the new league year starts.

So, why did the Browns have to cut him before they secured a replacement? That is what I don't understand.

I would guess that they decided to move on from him no matter what. (unless he took a huge pay cut)

I probably would have hung onto him for now, but would have done everything in my power to upgrade his position.

A bit premature seeing as how Free Agency hasn't already begun.

I'll at least give them credit for trying to restructure his deal. Maybe he'll come back on a one-year, 5 million dollar "prove it" deal...but I doubt it.

At least he gets to start free agency as a...err...free agent, I guess.

We are kind of forcing ourselves into a corner for OT's and LB's now, though.

They offered him a re-negotiated deal. He refused it. This isn't difficult...unless you want it to be.

He's not worth the money he was slated to get. Simple.

Like Dorsey, he didn't like the new arrangement and he left. That isn't creating a hole like trading McCourty before we signed HIS replacement. Kirksey already WAS a hole.

We were in a corner whether Kirksey took his new offer or not.

They knew he wasn't going to be in the plans at that salary and did him "a solid" by doing now so he can sign on with another team. (Likely at a much lower contract.)

I agree with your post - but I also understand that until you get a better option in place, why cut a player if it does not have a salary cap implication if you do it now or later?

I thought Kirksey was decent. Above average when healthy and with decent players supporting him. . . while he's been injury prone and while he's not worth $8m per ... unless you can actually get someone better, why eliminate the possibility that you can call on him?

Does a player fill a hole if he can't stay on the field?
Can a player be a leader if he can't stay on the field?

Do either of these players types SUCK up cap space?

Inquiring minds want to know!

It was premature and this FO is known for it.

I don't think Kirko will be back under any circumstances. I read his farewell statement. He didn't sound all that upset. He had to live through this FO's blunders before and is probably glad he is getting away from them.

Well said.

Blessing in disguise.

LOL.........that sounds familiar.

SAM 56 Harvey, Willie CF19 59 Young, Trevon SF19
MLB 44 Takitaki, Sione 19/3 55 Davis, Tae W/NYG
WLB 51 Wilson, Mack 19/5 48 Grace, Jermaine SF19

Near as I see, this is the LB room. Holy Moly... I only know Taki and Mack

Glad the "smart" guys are back in charge.

Schoebert was criticized for making tackles 5 yards downfield, can't wait to hear the bitching about this LB group.

A lot of the stuff you're saying here is made up and you're just trying to deceive...

For starters, this isn't the same front office that was here a few years ago.

Saying the difference between Dorsey and this front office is that Dorsey would have attempted to trade Kirksey is nothing more than pure conjecture on your part. Don't try to issue this as fact.

A year ago Dorsey released Collins and Fells without having their replacements in place. Teams actually do this. Quit trying to insinuate this is something only the current guys in charge have ever done.

Oh, and trading a punter for a 4th round pick isn't considered a great move by the front office?

You're being ridiculous. In fact, you're doing the same thing you're chastising other people doing but doing it with Dorsey. Gosh, that guy could do no wrong, eh?

Are you disputing that teams are in nickel and dime more than they are in their base defense?

I think they knew that there was no way they were keeping him under that old contract. Not a chance. IMO rather than jerking him around (aka waiting to see if something changes...that simply wouldn't unless he took less $$$), they man-to-man said that we would like to keep you here, but it has to be under a more-reasonable contract. He declined.

We can debate whether Kirksey was good or average when healthy, but the issue was that contract. Even at his best since he signed that deal, he's been a very highly paid guy with average production when healthy (a rarity it turned out) and a ton of missed games.

This FO should be given kudos for talking straight with him and seeing if they could work out a different deal to try and keep him here...and doing so now...rather than playing games when they KNOW they weren't paying that contract.

I'd like to see them take some of that savings and sign Joe Show...even if they think they are over-paying him. Not sure what's up with that, but Joe isn't worth 15mil a year but might be a 10mil/yr guy. I dunno. I'd overpay Joe...I wouldn't overpay Kirksey.

I am wondering what the new coaching staff thinks of Montrel Meander. Is he a CB, a SS, a FS, or a LB?

Given his last name, he’ll probably fluctuate between all four positions

It's remarkable, really.

jc...

As long as the moneyballers replace these players with better players, with the goal of winning in 2020 and making the playoffs, it's hard to criticize.

But, it looks like the Browns are being cheap, asking players to renegotiate and when the players refuse, they cut them, claiming we tried to sign these guys.

Kinda looks like the Browns are back to winning that trophy for having the most cap space in the NFL...

Worth noting, the guy running the show graduated college with a degree in ECONOMICS...

...and, the guy filling the position of GM, his degree is also in ECONOMICS.

Depodesta's claim to fame is building a baseball team on THE CHEAP...the point is, we should not be surprised that "MONEY" appears to be the #1 concern of the Browns front office.

...as long as they win enough to make the playoffs in 2020, I say show me what you can do!

Also, you can be the worst owner in the NFL and your team can be the worst team in the NFL...and the Haslams still get paid.

Like I said, if they build a team to win now, I'm not gonna complain...just win and make the 2020 playoffs and that will silence the doubters.

Lets see what happens when we can start signing players .... they weren’t as cheap as the sashiettes want to make them out to be ... they made 4 big contract signings in 2 years ....

They overpaid for Zeitler ... he was an above average guard and we made him the highest paid one in the league .... was a great deal for both sides ....

They overpaid for Collins ... that didn’t work out so well ...

They overpaid for Tretter ... that worked out very well also ...

Then there’s Kenny Britt ..... ...

2 of those 4 were for significant money at there positions ... and the other two were decent size ... that’s a good thing and gives me hope they’ll at least spend money and i don’t see many Britt’s or Collins in our future ....

Well, we will find out shortly. Berry said he was going to be aggressive and he may very well be.

My earlier comments were more about certain posters working overtime to protect this FO after they constantly criticized Dorsey.

I actually like Berry as a person. He's very intelligent and classy. I hope he does a good job. I'm just worried because he was part of the group w/Depo the first time around and their personnel decisions as a whole were huge fails.

They should have kept Dorsey
Nothing on Berrys or Depodesta resumes tells me
They have completley took a franchise as,woeful as the Browns franchise and took it to newer heights
If people are expecting Berry and Poindexter Depo
To pull off what John Lynch did in San Fran.
It's not happening

Who has taken a franchise as woeful as the Browns and taken it to "newer heights"?

That's the first thing I thought. You're restricting your pool of people to consider to exactly 0.

You do know the previous GM had a degree in guess what - ECONOMICS.

This is true, but do we know the FO didn't try to do that?

Are you willing to give 10-1 odds that other teams didn't want to take on his contract with his injury history?

That absolutely hasn't been me. lol.

I saw the move coming a mile away, but I am upset about it. Not from a football standpoint, simply because Kirko is a good guy - put in his lumps for us, and I would have loved to have seen him be able to find a way to stay on this team. But that was a longshot no matter what.

I am more concerned with what is going on with Jo Sho regarding the FO than am of this though. So while I am agreeing with you in principle that I am seeing signs of what you are thinking on the Jo Sho issue - all I am saying is I am taking each issue in its own light.

Sashi Brown got picks for Barkevious Mingo, Andy Lee, and Justin Gilbert.

And the outrage that followed.

J/c

Unfortunately, due to potential litigation, I'll have to stick with "He who must not be named" or more affectionately "Lord Voldemort."

On the topic of player movement, I'm sure these guys have a plan, but I'm certainly not clear on what it is. Hopefully, it will become evident in hindsight after FA and the Draft. I'm holding out hope that they can find a tonesetter on D.

Not getting into the other stuff.

The furor over the Lee trade was unreal. Pretty sure the punter we had the next season outperformed Lee or was within a net yard or two.

We quickly signed Britton Colquitt after Andy Lee was traded. Lee played in nine games for the Panthers and then was released before the start of the next season.

And how much angst and vitriol did we witness over that trade? smh

Take a look for yourself!

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1151044/1

LOL.........y'all never stop.

We tried to redo the contract. We did make that effort. It's not like we didn't show some interest. We just decided the risk of him losing time was greater than the returns.

We aren't the only team releasing veteran players who have some age or have had the injury bug.

With respected players, you cut them before FA starts. You allow them the full period to sign elsewhere.

I see it this way, if you show them that respect, you aren't burning bridges. You can always tell them that if they don't get what they hoped, call us back. We still would like you on the team. We might have your best offer.

If you wait until after FA starts to decide you don't want them, they will be ticked you dorked them around...you aren't going to get them to come back here or give you a final chance to sign them.


I think that is the deal with Shobert. I think we would like to keep him, but not for 11 mil a year. 8-9, sure.

A much better argument than reviving the Andy Lee thread that has been revived multiple times. LOL

Of course, they don't revive other threads that paint a different picture. I won't revive them either because it as low-brow tactic.

We need some continuation... I'd pay the dude $11 per without blinking. Healthy? Check. Leader? Check. Off field issues? No. Above average player? Check. And personally I love intelligent players of which he is.

As

I guess I am lost. Not sure what Andy lee has to do with things?

Not sure who or why Lee came up but he did. And man job it sticks in the mind so of course it'll get discussed. Just like Kenny Brit and Schwartz and other bad examples do.

I am totally happy with the Hammer. I would have been upset had we not kept him.

Memphis and cfrs brought up Andy Lee to make fun of other posters, including myself.

A diversionary tactic to take away the attention of the front office cutting Kirko before they have a replacement.

Standard operating procedure in the PFF.

I don't know all about that. I don't mind cutting Kirko.

To me, if you respect a player, you cut him before the opening of free agency. Give him a chance he finds his market. Maybe he finds out you are the best contract fit? Maybe you find out you are only 500K off and can do that?

You don't hang on to them until late May before cutting them when the real money is gone.

JMO and the way I treat people and would want to be treated.

That's not saying anything bad towards you. Maybe I am offering a perspective you hadn't considered?

I don't think you are understanding what I am saying. That's fine.

FYI: I have no problem w/your position. I just don't like when certain folks continually try and belittle others w/BS by bringing up an Andy Lee thread. They sure as hell don't bring up other thread that paint them in a negative light. I could reciprocate, but I won't lower myself to that level.

I was under the impression the Wilson and Takitaki were drafted for the purpose of replacing Schobert and Kirko this year.

What made you think that? I am not being snarky. Just wondering why you would think that.

I think Wilson might have been drafted to replace Kirko down the line and to provide depth in case Kirko got hurt. I think Taki was drafted as a special teams guy and a run stuffer on certain downs.

I could be wrong. Just an opinion.

Why was my post deleted?

Folks are making fun w/out knowing the facts. Seriously?

Wilson was drafted to replace Show... Taki to replace Kirko. I know its your opinion, but you don't use a 3rd round pick on a special teams guy.

Taki Taki looked so overmatched last year.
If the Browns are leaning on him to start
Then this defense is in big trouble
He was like Scooby Wright 2.0 last year
All hype and zero plays made

Taki taki seemed slight to me, at least from my couch haha ... he didn’t do much that made me think he’d be our answer at LB

I'm not sure if Takitaki's season, or lack thereof, was more about him or Wilks. He played less than 10% of the defensive snaps. Link

It kind of feels like a Genard Avery situation, and they are somewhat similar players. Did he not play because he wasn't good or because Wilks didn't have a plan for him?

I didn't see enough of him to get a good grasp on how he was playing.

One problem with both of the past couple FOs is that there seemed to be a disconnect between GM and coaches about the plans for how to use and develop drafted players (and those acquired by other means.)

j/c

So weird to me that a guy gets 105 defensive snaps (10% of all defensive plays last year), and we already know he's a special teams guy and not an answer at LB.

My goodness. No one thought Schobert or Kirksey were the answer after their rookie year either.

And vice versa.

Nothing was shown by Takitaki to indicate he was starting LB'er material. To suggest otherwise is a huge leap of faith.

I never saw enough from Takitaki to show he even will make it out of camp this coming August. He is, at most, a special teamer right now.

I could be wrong but weren't there folks on these boards calling schobert a bust after his first season and claiming we wasted a pick on him.

Very, very likely.

They said the same thing about Johnny Football.

I have wondered the same, but most coaches aren't going to bench a better player because they don't like them on a personal level.

Tic-Tak has some flaws in his game. Maybe he can take coaching and correct them.

Wasn't he a 4th round pick? Bust?

I am not wrong about not too long ago were talking how bad Dorsey was and that we couldn't lose Joe. Now, they think it's good to let him leave.

We don't have to look too far back for that one. I will say that "who said what" crap is just that. Crap. Who cares?

Dorsey chose not to re-sign Joe...even though he had all the power to do so. That's a fact. You can't spin away from that.

"who said what" crap? Coming from the guy who whines about who-'likes'-what posts and who does or doesn't respond to the posts of others?

IMO letting Joe go is wrong no matter who is wielding the AXE. Now if Joe wouldn't sign for 10 million per year and is trying to get 14 or 15 million per year I might change my tune.

Big Difference. Joe and TT are working hard on improving and playing football. The only thing JM worked on was partying, drinking, and using drugs.

Projecting a mid round pick will be starter material in his second year who only played 10% of the snaps as a rookie is s stretch. A HUGE stretch.

I know we all want our Browns to win, but claiming he'll make that leap this upcoming year is improbable at best. You know that GM.

j/c:



If he signs an offer sheet, take the pick and never look back.

I dont think he will find a team, but we’ll see

Nate Ulrich
@ByNateUlrich
·
10m
#Browns tendered TE Pharaoh Brown, RB Dontrell Hilliard and WR KhaDarel Hodge as exclusive rights free agents

Doesn't Charles know that the new FO likes to cut guys and create holes without a plan to fill them. Silly rabbit.

Did we come to terms with some LB'ers I didn't hear about?

j/c..

The game's highest paid TE?

This is shocking to me. He is not a player I thought we’d be interested in.

Ok. This is....interesting.

Huge signing...

Yeah, but according to some, Conklin isn't worth the money.

$30M tied up in two WRs and the highest-paid TE?

If we sign Hooper and Conklin that’s a big upgrade

j/c:

Considering the money that GB paid Kirko, I think the Browns may have been wiser to try and trade him rather than just releasing him.

Trade a guy who has played (7) games in the last two years and his current team wanted nothing to do with the remainder of his contract? Yeah, lots of teams want to get them some of that.

And u think VG is overpaid ... ...

I would have liked to have kept Burris.

Yes I liked Burris as well ...

Who the hell is playing safety for us?

Sheldrick Redwine and you.

My guess is that we sign a guy or two in the coming hours/days.

Morgan Burnett Damarious Randall (I don't think he has signed elsewhere?_

Hopefully we make a move for Tre Boston.

Agreed

Burris was a guy who caught my eye early on and I said so. I think before anyone else did.

I would have like to have retained him. He was very decisive when attacking the ball. That's important.

Jimmy Ward, please.

I watched a lot of SF's games. Ward was a guy who caught my eye multiple times. Almost all of those plays were positive. I think he would be a great get.

Is he more of a SS type? Kinda like Deone Buchanan

I don't think so.

I believe he was a first round pick. Started off as a slot corner. Moved outside. Went to safety. Back to corner. Then. last year he went to FS which seemed to be his best positon.

Note: I might have the sequence wrong. Just going my memory.

I just know that I watched a ton of SF games this year because of Shanny and Jimmy G. Ward was all over the place. Very good ball instincts. Breaks hard on the ball. Not the biggest guy, but uses shoulders well. Has a knack for making big plays at key times.

That isn't a scouting report. It's my observations.

Thanks for the insight. He’s not someone I’ve really paid much attention to after the draft. We certainly need any safety help we can get

I am thinking the same thing.

JIMMIE WARD
DB, SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS

49ers re-signed S Jimmie Ward to a three-year, $28.5 million contract.

Ward has struggled to stay on the field -- he's played 40-of-64 possible games over the last four seasons -- but he's a nice starter whenever healthy and was a priority for the front office. Still only 29 years old, Ward can hold down the back-end of the 49ers' secondary as they try to make another Super Bowl. He is coming off a career-high 65 tackles.

SOURCE: Adam Caplan on Twitter
Mar 17, 2020, 12:36 AM ET

I had a feeling SF wanted him back

Browns signing Jack Conklin, Austin Hooper speaks volumes about 2019 Odell Beckham trade

CLEVELAND, Ohio – It was about a year ago, the Browns traded for Odell Beckham Jr.

The exact date was March 13, 2019.

Cleveland sent guard Kevin Zeitler, Jabrill Peppers, a 2019 first-round pick and a 2019 third-round pick to the New York Giants for Olivier Vernon and Beckham.

I thought about that after the Browns agreed to sign free agent tight end Austin Hooper on Monday. Then they followed that up with the signing of tackle Jack Conklin.

Compared to the sizzle of the Beckham/Vernon trade, this seemed a bit of yawner.

But this comes after Vernon missed six games because of a knee injury. Beckham had some impressive stats but failed to blend with the offense.

A solid move such as adding Hooper, a 25-year-old pass-catching tight end, makes sense. Then the Browns boldly at Conklin to bolster the line. And later Monday, the Browns added quarterback Case Keenum to back up Baker Mayfield.

Amen to a return of hard-nosed AFC-North style football with these new additions. It’s also a sign the Browns had to fix some of the moves made during the Beckham deal of a year ago..

LOVE THOSE RUNNING BACKS

New head coach Kevin Stefanski loves tight ends and running backs.

Most teams often play three wide receivers at a time. Not Minnesota when Stefanski was calling the plays last season. They were an offense built on two running backs, two tight ends, two receivers.

The only tight end of note on the current Browns roster is David Njoku. He had a major wrist injury. He suffered a concussion. Njoku played only four games and he fell out of favor with former coach Freddie Kitchens.

The Browns have made it clear to Njoku he is part of the new era. Think about two young, athletic tight ends in Hooper and Njoku.

That’s why the Browns have made Hooper ($44 million for four years, $23 million guaranteed) the highest paid tight end in the NFL.

I’m looking at the Vikings stats in 2019. Here are their top four in receptions:

63: Stefon Diggs, WR

53: Dalvin Cook, RB

39: Kyle Rudolph, TE

36: Irv Smith Jr, TE

A receiver, a running back and two tight ends.

The Vikings ranked No. 4 in rushing attempts last season, behind Baltimore, San Francisco and Seattle.

The Browns? They ranked 22nd in rushing attempts.

That’s right, a team with Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt ranked 22nd in rushing attempts.

WHAT BECKHAM DEAL DID

When Freddie Kitchens took over as offensive coordinator in the middle of the 2018 season, the Browns became a team based more on the running game and quick pass routes than before. It made Baker Mayfield a more effective quarterback.

Once the Browns acquired Beckham, they became fixated on getting the ball to the wide receiver.

Perhaps Kitchens forgot the style of offense that allowed him to move up from offensive coordinator to head coach. More likely, he wasn’t mentally strong enough to deal with the pressure of having Beckham wanting the ball.

Former GM John Dorsey put his job on the line with the promotion of Kitchens along with the Beckham deal.

The trade for Beckham was a mess.

Beckham played every game. He caught 74 passes. But the offense lost its identity in the process. I blame the coaching staff for this far more than the receiver.

Vernon didn’t make the expected impact as a pass rusher, partly because of injuries.

Zeitler was missed for his blocking and leadership on the offensive line.

That’s why the Browns had to spend big for Conklin, who played right tackle last season. Aside from center JC Tretter and guard Joel Bitonio, they need help on the line. Signing Conklin is a way of compensating for the loss of Zeitler, even if the two linemen play different positions.

THE NEW ERA

New GM Andrew Berry and Stefanski are not invested in justifying the Beckham trade. It appears they would like Beckham to fit into the offense, but the offense is not going to be All About Odell.

The signing of Hooper and the rumors of the Browns doing serious shopping for an offensive lineman indicate they are going to follow the Stefanski model in Minnesota.

Running backs.

Tight ends.

Receivers.

All working together in a ball-control offense with upgraded offensive line.

Stefanski also has brought in a fullback, Johnny Stanton who was with Minnesota last year. Stefanski has stressed the need for his offense look the same in terms of a defense trying to figure out if it will run or pass.

It’s why Baker Mayfield can expect to take more snaps directly under center than in the shotgun position. It’s why the running backs and tight ends could play a bigger part in the passing game than a year ago – when it was built around receivers Jarvis Landry and Beckham.

It’s why I’m upbeat on the two bold moves made by Berry.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2020/03...ree-agency.html

Oh crap. I’m feeling a stupid twinge of optimism again.

The talents there Jules ... and Andy’s done good filling the gigantic hole at RT and bringing in a quality player to fit perfectly into Kev’s O and got one of the bettor back ups in the league ...

I also just read that Minni may let Harris’s go for a mid round pick ... get on it Andy ... take care of the D today ...

Uh oh. So...the trade for the hallmark player in the "all that talent brought in" mantra was a mess?

Is that article in the wrong thread?

Edited to add: Just poking fun there.

Well as long as you can find an article on the internet somewhere that agrees with you, you must be right.

Me too. I haven't felt this good since we signed Lecharles Bentley and Gary Baxter!

Sorry if this has been posted, I didn’t see it anywhere and haven’t seen it discussed. We didn’t tender Rick Seals-Jones or Bryan Cox Jr. contracts. They are both unrestricted free agents.

I thought both were decent contributors when they played and I am kind of surprised we didn’t tender them given the price.

Seals-Jones got some love on here because of his TD catches and he did play well, but I am going to focus on Bryan Cox Jr because he didn't get the same love. I thought he played well. He was disruptive at times and did a good job of setting the edge.

One of the biggest problems of having an owner like Jimmy is the constant turnover of the roster because he continuously fires regime after regime. I really don't even blame the new guys for getting their "own players." They've all done it.

Thus, I am not trashing the new FO on this point. Dorsey did the same thing. Sashi, Farmer, Banner, Holmgren, etc, etc all did the same things.

I blame ownership for being clueless. I also blame the local media and fan-base for not learning from past mistakes and constantly screaming for so-and-so to be fired. And our dumb-ass owners listen to the most ignorant of folks.

Pfffttttttttt............One step forward, two steps back.

I was a fan of Cox
Liked him when he was at U of F

Is there anyone on the planet who "screamed" for Dorsey to be fired? Anyone? Anyone? Were you referencing Freddie?

Even if the Browns assemble a "different" team,

How Long Can They Keep This Team Together!

Evidently they can't keep ANY! team together 19 months,

Therefore they will not win, have a winning season, or make the playoffs, because this is the same thing they've tried every year since 2006!

The only time they stuck with a plan, was the losingest records in team and league history, back to back!

Wake me if the Browns stop looking like insanity.

Me continuing to support this stuff is - I don't know.

I don't believe the Browns will do/win SQUAT this year.
PROVE ME WRONG!

... Stefanski was not as experienced as the other candidates they appeared to have a shot at, and
The analytics guys have proven to be the wrong move in the past;
So, (Go Browns?) they made two wrong decisions when the right decision was staring them in the face, and fell into their laps, so to speak.

I was/am sorry to see Dorsey go, but he was not fired bro he quit.

Yep. I simply didn't want to change the context of the quote of another poster.