Obviously the percentage is higher with 4th and 15.

I kind of wish we could just go back to kicking off from the 30. I remember games when Josh Cribbs was our best chance to score. Kickoffs were exciting.

Fix the freaking helmets and we could stop all these efforts to change the game, making it safer.

More helmet padding = less head injuries.

It really is that easy, folks...fix the helmets!

Along with a better helmet, the league should move to eliminate leading with the helmet when tackling. Forget "head-to-head", just call spearing or targeting for any tackler who leads with their head anywhere on the ball carrier's body. 15 yard penalty the first time, automatic ejection on the second. Football has to find a way back to form-tackling - shoulders & arms - from youth football up through HS, college, and the pros before the nervous Nellies in Congress and state houses around the country outlaw the game altogether.

Me too, but I don't think they'll ever do that because of the "player safety" charade.

Also, the part about Cribbs is true. I used to have season tickets and my daughter and I were at the Browns/Vikings game. I think BQ was the QB. We were completely inept on offense and the only highlights were provided by Cribbs. As the Vikings lined-up to kick-off after one TD, my daughter quips: "At least we have a chance to score now." It was that type of gallows humor that got us through many games.

the league should move to eliminate leading with the helmet when tackling.

Devil's advocate... they probably should've fixed that loophole when Bill did it.

I somewhat agree.

I think that fixing the helmets would make them look weird and the NFL--and many players--would not want that.

Where I disagree is that many of the concussions are caused be the violent whipping and stopping of the head. There is no pad that can protect that.

Hell no! The game is played too fast and it is impossible to never lead w/your head. The game is over officiated now. Too many dumb rules.

vers...not sure what you mean, look funny?

Is the goal to protect a players brain or worry about being in fashion.

As far as the part about some violent whipping of the head..can you cite one example?

Can I site an example of a concussion taking place because of the whip-snap effect? Yes, I had two of them while playing. Do some research for yourself if you don't believe me. I'm not going to play this dumb game.

I kind of wish we could just go back to kicking off from the 30. I remember games when Josh Cribbs was our best chance to score. Kickoffs were exciting.

Mark Kelso, mocked and shunned for his padded helmet in the 1990s, is still fighting to reduce concussions

Kevin Kleps
Sports Business



You would never know Mark Kelso played eight seasons in the NFL. Kelso was listed at 5-foot-11, 181 pounds in his playing days with the Buffalo Bills, and he appears to be 10 pounds lighter now, at age 50. If you have followed the NFL for a long time, you would, however, recognize Kelso if you were given a picture of him wearing a giant “ProCap” on top of his Buffalo Bills helmet. Kelso suffered four concussions in 1988 and '89. A sign of the times: He played in all 16 games in each season. Prior to the 1990 season, he was given a choice by then-Bills trainer Eddie Abramoski: Wear the ProCap — a padded helmet attachment that, according to Kelso, weighed 14 ounces — or don't play. “It looked stupid. Absolutely stupid,” Kelso said during a “Confronting the Concussion Crisis” talk Tuesday night, April 29, at Edinboro University of Pennsylvania. During Tuesday's keynote address, Kelso told a story about how badly he was mocked by his Bills teammates during his initial practice wearing the ProCap. He said the first time Jim Kelly saw Kelso, lined up as a safety in a scrimmage against the Bills' first-team offense, the former quarterback had to stop the play because he was laughing so hard at Kelso's appearance. When Kelso got home that night in 1990, his wife, Robin, asked him about his day. “It was bad,” Kelso replied. “Really bad.” To show her what he had endured, Kelso drove his wife to the Bills' facility that night and donned the ProCap. Robin Kelso laughed so hard she fell to the ground, Mark said. And that was part of the problem with the ProCap, which never penetrated the NFL market the way Kelso and the technology's inventor, Bert Straus, hoped it would. “With football players, aesthetics wins out over safety every time,” Kelso said Tuesday night. Kelso said only two other players wore the ProCap in those days — former 49ers left tackle Steve Wallace, an All-Pro selection in 1992, and Randy Dixon, a guard who started 110 games for the Colts in a nine-year career that concluded in 1995. Kelso intercepted a pass in his first game wearing the ProCap in 1990. He went on to play four seasons with the device, which he credits for extending his career. In 1992, he picked off a career-high seven passes and helped the Bills to their third of four consecutive Super Bowl appearances. In four seasons wearing the ProCap, Kelso said he suffered one concussion, but it occurred when a player who was “100 pounds” heavier kneed him in the side of the head.

Kelso, Straus and others believe the biggest reason the Pro Cap, which is no longer on the market, never became a popular device to help combat concussions is the NFL was about as welcoming to the padded cap as Kelso's Bills teammates were the first time they saw him don his new-look helmet. This 2013 story by Bloomberg writer John Helyar details the many lengths to which the old-guard NFL allegedly went to squash any technology that competed with Riddell, which, until this season, had been the league's official helmet manufacturer. Kelso and Straus, an Erie, Pa., native, formed a group that invested $200,000 to increase the production of ProCaps in the early 1990s. In the Bloomberg story, Straus tells a story about appearing before the NFL's concussion committee in 1995. Straus said the ProCap reduced impacts of collisions by as much as a third — the result of a study by the biomechanics laboratory at Penn State. But the concussion committee told Straus they believed the Penn State findings confirmed “our greatest concern regarding axial loading and catastrophic neck injuries,” according to Helyar's story. Kelso, Straus and Richard Nelson, the Penn State lab's founder, strongly disagreed with the league's assessment. In June 1996, the NFL sent its players a memo warning that the “standard helmet manufacturer's warranty may be negated or modified by the use of the ProCap.” It also said players risked “catastrophic neck injuries, including possible death,” by wearing the device. Straus told Helyar that Riddell salesmen provided copies of the memo to youth sports equipment dealers and colleges that used the ProCaps — essentially marking the beginning of the end for the device made famous by an undersized safety for the Buffalo Bills. Tuesday at Edinboro (full disclosure: I am a 1995 graduate of the university), Kelso said he was working with The Hanson Group, an Alpharetta, Ga.-based materials research company. The group has developed a padded helmet cover that is being used by some youth and college teams in practices. Kelso said South Carolina — and possible Browns draft choice Jadeveon Clowney — donned the helmet tops during the spring and summer. “I'm not worried about them wearing these in games,” Kelso said of the soft shell technology, which looks every bit as bulky as the old ProCaps, “because we're working on the whole helmet, too.” Kelso said it will cost about $2 million to build a helmet with the technology that has been developed by The Hanson Group. He admits he has a vested interest in the pursuit — so much so that he left his longtime administrative position at St. Mary's High School in Lancaster, N.Y., to concentrate all of his efforts to finding a better way to reduce concussions. But Kelso is adamant that he isn't doing this for the accolades or for business purposes. “I think we have the ability to play the game safely,” he said. “We have a responsibility as adults to help kids.” Kelso coached for 17 years after retiring from the NFL, and he stresses the importance of other practices that can help combat head injuries, such as proper tackling techniques, shoulder pads with an extra layer of padding and even improved nutrition. He would still like to see the soft shell technology make more of a mark in the NFL. Kelso, who is also a Bills radio analyst, was asked about NFL commissioner Roger Goodell during his talk Tuesday at Edinboro. The understated former safety said he couldn't get Goodell to return his calls, but he was able to have dinner with the commissioner five weeks ago — albeit in a large group setting in which he didn't get much one-on-one time. “We haven't allowed new technology into the market that will help our kids,” he said. Kelso is optimistic he can play a part in changing that. But the battle seems every bit as daunting as some of the matchups Kelso faced as a 180-pound defensive back who was mocked by many of his peers for his extra-large headgear.


https://www.crainscleveland.com/article/...in-the-1990s-is

I'm just saying that for all the talk about safety, the NFL--and many players--won't go for that due to the aesthetics. I am NOT agreeing w/them, but just pointing out the reality of the situation.

I did a search for ProCap, and got a number of good articles. The biggest con is the increased friction of soft surface increases the potential for spinal injuries.

"What they found was precisely on-point with football’s current fear, that the softness actually distributes pressure to the neck, which can cause horrendous spinal injuries."

https://www.fastcompany.com/1671752/why-nfl-helmets-will-never-be-concussion-proof

I did a search for ProCap, and got a number of good articles. The biggest con is the increased friction of soft surface increases the potential for spinal injuries.

"What they found was precisely on-point with football’s current fear, that the softness actually distributes pressure to the neck, which can cause horrendous spinal injuries."

https://www.fastcompany.com/1671752/why-nfl-helmets-will-never-be-concussion-proof

https://www.fastcompany.com/1671752/why-nfl-helmets-will-never-be-concussion-proof


From Peen..."I was just going to add that. The problem is if the materials more or less stick to each other, that is a big problem.

You might solve the concussion problem, but create a bigger problem when players start severing their spinals cords just below the neck."

... the friction generated by a soft outer shell could lead to a neck injury."
[/color]

There are anti-friction coatings available that could lessen or eliminate this issue...

Kind of why I am in favor of just placing the ball. Save the 10 seconds or so wasted on a kick. If you have maybe 6 kickoffs in a game, you waste a minute of actual play.

I'd like that extra minute sitting there at the end of the game rather than watching guys run out to where you are going to place the ball more often than not.

Peen, w8... Can you cite "one example" of players suffering such an injury while using the ProCap?

From your own linked article-

"There are also claims–though no studies that I could find–that the friction generated by a soft outer shell could lead to a neck injury."

Making a claim and proving a claim...two different things!

32...I've thought about different ways to improve upon the basic design of the ProCap...

...I came up with the same idea of adding a layer of padding to the outside, but also add a layer of "hard shell" material on top of the outer padding.

Engineering would need to adjust the thickness of each layer with a goal of keeping the overall size and weight of existing helmets while building "a layering design" of
1. inside padding
2. a layer of hard shell material
3. then the outer padding
4. and finally a layer of hard shell material.

Again, adjusting the thickness of each layer to achieve the goal of producing the best, most effective helmet that meets all concerns would be challenging, but I'm confident, it can be done.

Peen, w8... Can you cite "one example" of players suffering such an injury while using the ProCap?

From your own linked article-

"There are also claims–though no studies that I could find–that the friction generated by a soft outer shell could lead to a neck injury."

Making a claim and proving a claim...two different things!

You don't need to change the equipment, you need to change the player.

I'm not a proponent of any hard padding. A key design feature, particularly helmets, would be (IMO) its' ability to diffuse or disperse energy of the impacting surfaces. I do like the effort you are putting into this issue...good work.

Mac, we have gone around and around on this. I don't dismiss your idea. I think it might help. We have never had two players in the NFL going at it with soft shell.

Soft on soft is going to stick to some degree. That isn't good. That increases the time for the shock to work down the neck towards the spine.

Look at rugby players. They don't wear helmets. I think the more padding you put in the helmet, the more bold a player becomes.

My thinking is reduce the padding and size and players are going to quit leading with their head. That is what it amounts to. You don't need to change the equipment, you need to change the player. You can tackle a player without having the mentality of knocking them out.

As long as the NFL fosters that environment, no helmet is going to help.

Why has the NFL turned it's back on the safest helmet ever used in the NFL? [/color]

I would not mind the onside kick alternative, except, a team only needs 10 yards for a first down, and during an onside kick, the ball only has to travel 10 yards, so why 4th and 15? It should be 4th and 10. If you don't get the first down, you're basically giving the other team 3 points, of course, if you don't get the first down, you're probably done anyways. lol

You have to factor in the difficulty of actually recovering the onside kick, thus the 15 yards. If you actually wanted to equal the odds, it might be 4th and 20. Maybe even 30 when you have to factor in some goofy ref throwing a pass interference flag.

It just doesn't happen very often.

https://www.insidehook.com/daily_brief/sports/nfl-4th-and-15-onside-kick
BY LUIS PAEZ-PUMAR / MAY 24, 2020 1:29 PM
The NFL is on the verge of changing one of the fundamental strategies for trailing teams ahead of the upcoming 2020 season. If a proposal gets approval from all relevant parties, teams will be able to choose to forego onside kicks twice per game in favor of a “4th and 15” play in hopes of retaining the ball.

The change would see the scoring team attempt to gain 15 yards in one play in order to keep the ball. The logic behind the change, beyond giving trailing teams a different way to keep the ball, is that this allows both teams to engage in a normal football activity, rather than the weirdness that can come from onside kicks. Offensive teams can really on their units that just scored, while defensive teams won’t have to rely on a good bounce from the onside kick to stop their opponents.

As NBC Sports points out, this does put the defenses in a tough spot, though. Not only do they have to go back out onto the field for one more play after just surrendering a score, but if they fail to stop the offense from picking up the 15 yards, they will then have to go back out onto the field for another drive.

That should help increase the success odds for the offenses; onside kicks had a 16.3 percent success rate from 2013 to 2017, while plays in which an offense needed 15 yards for a first down succeeded 15.9 percent of the time during the same period. However, that does not account for how the new rule change would affect tired defenses, as well as the increases in offensive yardage in recent years, so the change should see more ball retention from scoring teams.