Mayfield misses OBJ so maybe he goes to the Rams to miss him there too.

j/c:

It would be great if Watson wasn't suspended.

Maybe we can talk about what he brings to the team on the field?

Some Positives:

I questioned his accuracy in college, but he has proven to be an accurate passer of the football in the NFL. He is very adept at throwing on the run or from the pocket. He throws a nice deep ball. He finds seams in the zone while scrambling to his right. He avoids sacks and is hard to bring down despite his slight frame. He can run for first downs when needed. This one is very important---he can throw for first downs on 3rd down. He can overcome a bad play call or a good defensive call by his ability to create. Guys don't have to be exactly where the play told them to go. Watson is able to read the defense to make sight adjustments if the receiver makes them too. We have not seen things like that here in Cleveland. He has always been held in high regard by his teammates and other players, whether they be former or current players.

Some Negatives:

He does have a slight build and he runs quite a bit. He can hold the ball too long and take some sacks, but he has never played behind an OL like the one we have. Some folks are going to hate him no matter what transpires in court. That could have a negative affect on him and the organization.

Summary:

I am excited about seeing him on the field. I thought we had no chance to win the Super Bowl after I saw what transpired at the QB position in the AFC last year and w/R. Wilson coming over. He gives us a chance. I do wish he could have played w/the 2020 group. We had the best roster in the entire league and I think by a fairly significant margin. I think that Watson can be our answer at QB for the next 10--15 years.

Time served?

I'm with you Vers, on being wrong on Watson.

I think that we (I know that I was) where so confident in Mahomes falling to us, before KC jumped ahead of us ... so much so that Watson wasn't even considered (shock of defeat?) with our selection ... he got away from us once, but now we turn the page.

As expected, clips are leaked from Deshaun Watson deposition

Posted by Mike Florio on March 29, 2022, 9:04 PM EDT
link


The deposition testimony developed to date in the 22 Deshaun Watson civil cases aren’t subject to any type of protective order restricting their release to the media. As a result, a portion of Watson’s swornn testimony has been leaked to the media. Per a source with knowledge of the situation, the leak was made by lawyer Tony Buzbee, who represents the 22 plaintiffs.

The edited clips given by Buzbee to Fox 8 in Cleveland (link below)

https://twitter.com/NFL_DovKleiman/status/1508864371895713799?s=20&t=B8V_alR2O4HVa67nijsugg


...undoubtedly were intended to make Watson look bad. For example, the clips include an admission from Watson that he didn’t tell the Texans or his personal trainer that he was arranging private massages through social media.

Then there’s this objectively implausible exchange, regarding one of the specific massage therapists.

Q: Did you find her attractive?

A: That wasn’t my intention, sir.

Q: I didn’t ask you what your intentions were.

A: I can’t answer that. I have a girlfriend, so that wasn’t my intention, sir.

Q: So you can’t answer that because you have a girlfriend?

A: Because that’s not what I was looking for.

Q: What did you want from her?

A: Just a massage.

Apart from the fact that having a girlfriend doesn’t prevent Watson from concluding that a given massage therapist was attractive to him, the “I have a girlfriend” logic collapses when considering that attorney Rusty Hardin admitted last April that some of the massage sessions arranged by Watson became consensual sexual encounters. Unless each of those occurred at a time when Watson didn’t have a girlfriend, the entire line of questioning harms his credibility.

In these cases, Watson’s credibility becomes critical. He faces 22 civil claims that boil down to he said/she said disputes of fact, with no witnesses in the room to break the tie. Watson’s overall believability must be impeccable.

Although the clip leaked to Fox 8 likely is the worst snippet Buzbee could harvest, it’s problematic. And it’s an indication that Watson allowed the temptation to engage in swordplay with the opposing lawyer to overcome his primary obligation to tell the truth in response to each and every question asked, and to leave it to his lawyer to try to secure a victory based on a record of testimony that, from Watson, represents the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

If Watson can be characterized as having told something other than the truth on any relevant topic, it becomes more difficult to convince a neutral jury that he’s telling the truth when he denies 22 different allegations of wrongdoing.

Of course, the credibility of the alleged victims becomes critical, too. To date, their testimony hasn’t been leaked.

Published March 29, 2022

WATCH: Deshaun Watson deposition video surfaces, leads to more questions

Vincent Frank
link

New Cleveland Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson might have avoided criminal prosecution stemming from the north of 20 women accusing him of sexual misconduct.

Even then, Watson is still the defendant in 22 civil cases related to allegations of misconduct.

Once a grand jury in Harris County, Texas, opted against recommending criminal charges against the Pro Bowl quarterback, multiple NFL teams jumped at the idea of acquiring him from the Houston Texans.

Once a grand jury in Harris County, Texas, opted against recommending criminal charges against the Pro Bowl quarterback, multiple NFL teams jumped at the idea of acquiring him from the Houston Texans.






The attorney for the women claiming misconduct/assault on the part of Deshaun Watson, Tony Buzbee, was at times confrontational in the leaked desposition. That’s not a surprise.

However, Watson’s responses and the revelation that he did not tell the Texans about these massage appointments has to be considered telling.

In particular, the revelation that Watson allegedly posted on social media that he was in New York City at the same time the Pro Bowl quarterback was getting a massage in Texas is damning.

One other aspect of the deposition stands out, too. Watson admitted he had no idea whether these masseuses were trained or licensed in the field. Why put yourself out like that? Either way, we recommend you watch the entire video and draw your own conclusion.

Deshaun Watson deposition video proves drama isn’t going away

https://sportsnaut.com/deshaun-watson-deposition-video/

The Browns’ press conference announcing their acquistion of Watson this past Friday was not a great look. It didn’t seem like either the quarterback or the organization prepared for the onslaught of questions that were going to be headed their way by the media in Cleveland.

At one point, Watson referenced his upbringing in denying that he’s ever disrespected a woman.

“I understand these allegations are serious. I never assaulted any woman. I’ve never disrespected any woman. I was raised to be genuine and to respect everyone around me.”

Deshaun Watson during press conference (March 25, 2022)
Somehow, Watson wants us to believe that he wouldn’t disrespect a woman because he was raised by a single mother and two aunts.

Regardless of everything, Watson has not been charged (and won’t be charged) in criminal court. He’s obviously innocent until proven guilty. Even if the civil cases conclude in a manner that makes him look bad, this still rings true.

In no way does that mean Watson is free from the dogma of being an accused sexual predator. The NFL operates under the guise of its own jusice system and could still very well opt to hand down a lengthy suspension in the direction of Watson.

Related: Deshaun Watson and NFL’s highest-paid QBs

“Any transaction would have no effect on the NFL’s ongoing and comprehensive investigation of the serious allegations against Deshaun Watson. Nor would it affect his status under the Collective Bargaining Agreement and the Personal Conduct Policy.

“If the league’s investigation determines that Watson violated the Personal Conduct Policy, discipline may be imposed pursuant to the policy and the CBA.”

NFL spokesman Brian McCarthy on Deshaun Watson’s standing
With the NFL still investigating Watson, videos of these depositions becoming public record is not going to paint him in the best of lights when it comes to the powers that be in New York City. That’s for sure.

As for the Browns, they yielded three first-round picks and change to Houston for Watson while handing the quarterback a record-breaking $230 million guaranteed in cold hard cash.

The organization knew that had to come with risk, including further information surfacing relating to the allegations against their new franchise quarterback.

There is going to be a constant drip-drip-drip of articles and "news" on the civil cases between now and beginning of the season ... hell, it's going to be ongoing until the civil cases are over, which may not be till well into or after the season. While I get that these potentially have an impact on the Browns, the projected starting QB and our upcoming season - I think anything related specifically to the criminal cases needs to be in a different part of the board. We're at saturation point already - and it's a contentious issue that would be better served being discussed outside of the 'pure football' section. Just my 2 cents.

Watson should just come out and make a statement that he likes to hire prostitutes and it’s none of anyones business. That’d make for a good news day.

I don't have any issue with how he answered those questions. Especially since Buzbee would never ask that question to his clients. The whole question was a setup to take Watson down a path and make him look like a Predator. And I believe Watson handled it well. I definitely believe Watson has better representation than the alleged victims.

I have heard from credible sources (lawyers) that if he wins the first of these civil trials, they would not be surprised if the rest could very well be dropped.

But the other thing I have heard though is that over 98% of civil suits are settled. Because there is so much uncertainty when you get a 12 member jury involved. It will definitely cost more in the short term to Watson if he does not settle as he stated. But if he were to win, the long term boost to his reputation could outweigh that. Even though in this day and age there will be people who won't exonerate him regardless off the outcome of these trials (there will be some who won't condemn him as well). I think if he settles, if will be taken as an admission of guilt. That is the society we have today. But if he doesn't settle and loses...That could have a huge consequences.

I haven't made a decision on this matter. The sheer number of accusers is very alarming. The method of obtaining these "massages" is certainly suspect. And the sheer number of people he allows to handle this part of his therapy routine is obviously off.

But I also feel that 2 Grand Juries refusing to indict is extremely important. As the indictment process is so one sided. There is no defense presented in this process. And both Juries said there was no crime committed. No rape, no assault (sexual or otherwise), no solicitation for sex, no extortion or threats. The timing of all of this is very suspect as well as the connections, ESPECIALLY the Lead Attorney Buzbee. This guy is a real scumbag. I would not be surprised if Buzbee's entire plan has nothing to do with any criminal charges (although he would take that gamble as he lose nothing by having the women press for criminal charges) but is solely on the civil cases because of the settlement rate. Just by making the accusation he gets paid...And also, from the beginning Watson has been consistent while his accusers have not. These are important things to consider.

None of this tells us what really happened. And if Watson does win. Outside of a small part of his reputation, what will he gain? Counter-suing will get him nowhere. These women have no money. (and a civil suit is always about money for damages). Unless he can prove a conspiracy theory concerning the Texans ownership and Buzbee...there is no one to sue. And if Watson settles...he will be labeled a predator by social standards despite not by legal ones. And if he loses....woah boy....

This is why I refuse to condemn him until this plays out. We are playing a very dangerous game. Watson's life is forever changed for the worse just with an accusation. That is a lot of power. And although hokey and cliché. "With Great Power comes Great Responsibility". And I refuse to give into emotion when wielding that power. If it is shown that Watson committed these acts (or is responsible for these acts)...then so be it...he deserves to be ostracized as a predator. But if nothing can be proven, he also deserves to have a clear name despite the fact that that will never happen.

I've tried to be realistic about Watson's situation, realizing that simply escaping criminal charges in the two counties in Texas...that does not end the entire case. Watson will have to conclude the 20 or so civil suites he is facing and if Watson is determined to fight those cases in an effort to restore his reputation, that process could take a long time.

Here is a video from the Rich Eisen show yesterday, with Eisen discussing with Mike Florio some of what Watson might be facing in the near future.




One of my concerns and a question I have asked..are there more cases that could materialize?

In my research, with limited access to information, I found two more potential situations that might become an issue that Watson and his lawyers might have to deal with.

Reading the Timeline noting the various cases against Watson, there was one case that originated from California and another case from Georgia. What is the status of these two cases and could Watson face criminal charges in both states, just as he did in Texas..?

...maybe Watson's lawyers have already taken care these cases, but I can't find any information confirming that.

As much as some want to see all of Watson's issues disappear, the truth is Watson's problems are not over until the lawyers say they are over.

Never been a big Florio Fan...but couldn't say anything against what he was saying. It was very pragmatic and thoughtful. Now we don't know how much detail the Browns have. There will always be some doubt...but what he says about them wanting to be comfortable moving forward is definitely spot on. Maybe they have details maybe they don't...The moving forward angle is probably the more important aspect of the decision from a business standpoint. But I certainly agree with not having contact with the accusers angle. It definitely would have been considered tampering. Especially in the case of signing him. (as all of this took place before the signing). But everything he said about the Watson situation is certainly plausible (and likely)...And frankly, I wonder if there could be legal ramifications concerning the exempt list. Because it would essentially FORCE settlements...which publicly looks like an admission of guilt. That is like saying your employer negatively intervened in your legal process without your consent.

I'm not sure what I'm missing here, but if that's the worst of the deposition (and that's my assumption considering it was leaked by Buzbee), then that's not damning at all. It's actually makes Watson look good (I say 'good' in relative terms), since his defense has been that the encounters were consensual.

To be clear... Deshaun Watson isn't on trial for being a creep. IMO, that 'trial' has long since been over and done with (definitely guilty).

JMHO, I think the NFL opens itself up to litigation by Watson's lawyers IF he is disciplined in anyway under the personal conduct policy. If they do anything more than they did to Robert Kraft- billionaire caught in Florida filmed "illegally" performing sex acts at a massage parlor.....he was not disciplined in any way. He stated he didn't do anything illegal......sound familiar. DW is human, only he and God know what really happened. The NFL can't punish him without HUGE LEGAL fees and issues. Go Browns!!!

That sounds great in theory but first you may wish to look at the rules the NFL has in place that the players contractually agree to play by. You can't sign a contract that gives the NFL the power to arbitrarily make these determinations despite the lack of a conviction and then call foul when they do. That's not how any of this works.

You may wish to look at the NFL personal conduct policy. It makes their decision legal and binding from a contractual stanpoint.

Personal Conduct Policy League Policies for Players
PERSONAL CONDUCT POLICY
League Policies for Players
2016

https://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/photo/2017/08/11/0ap3000000828506.pdf

Roger Goodell no longer has final say on whether Deshaun Watson violated NFL's personal conduct policy

Charles Robinson·NFL columnist
Tue, March 29, 2022, 9:47 PM
link

PALM BEACH, Fla. — Deshaun Watson won’t be going on the NFL commissioner’s exempt list while the league investigates 22 civil lawsuits pending against the Cleveland Browns quarterback. Instead, any suspension or fine for Watson — if the NFL believes punishment is warranted — will be settled at the conclusion of the league's ongoing probe.

But there’s a sizable change awaiting Watson that stems from the collective bargaining agreement renewed in 2020: Commissioner Roger Goodell won’t be the person determining if Watson violated the personal conduct policy.

According to a source familiar with the league’s process under the new CBA, that decision is expected to be placed in the hands of former U.S. District Court Judge Sue Robinson, who has been chosen by the NFL and NFL Players Association to act as an impartial arbitrator in disciplinary cases like Watson’s. Goodell briefly referenced the policy change Tuesday while he was discussing the Watson probe during his closing remarks at the league’s annual spring meetings.

Prior to the new CBA, Goodell had the ability to unilaterally suspend players but the league ultimately chose any appeals officer.

Here's how NFL's new disciplinary process can work in Deshaun Watson's favor
That’s a sizable change for players, and the NFL’s probe into Watson appears to be the highest-profile case to go through the new system.

“We now have, obviously, at least resolution from the criminal side of [Watson’s legal cases],” Goodell said Tuesday, referring to a pair of Texas grand juries that declined to indict Watson on criminal sexual misconduct charges earlier this month. “There [are] still civil charges that are going on. So our investigators hopefully will have access to more information. That will be helpful in getting to the conclusion of what are the facts and was there a violation of the personal conduct policy. But that determination will be made by a joint disciplinary officer that was established by the NFLPA and the NFL. She will make that decision when the facts are all in. We’ll see. There’s no timeframe on that.”

While the process is set up to send cases to an independent arbitrator, the change favors Watson in at least one sense: The league no longer has the sole ability to determine whether a personal conduct violation occurred. Instead, the NFL must come to its own determination and then have a third party weigh the evidence and testimony collected by the league and NFLPA, at which point judgment is rendered.

Once that happens, Watson’s disciplinary scenarios could go like this:

If the NFL determines no personal conduct policy violation occurred, he faces no discipline and moves on.

If the independent arbitrator determines no personal conduct policy violation occurred, Watson faces no punishment and moves on. Per the CBA, the NFL cannot appeal this decision from the arbitrator.

If the independent arbitrator determines a personal conduct violation occurred, the arbitrator can ultimately determine the punishment for the infraction. If the NFL disagrees with the punishment, the league can appeal it to Goodell, who ultimately has a significant measure of power over the process once it’s agreed that a violation took place.

What this means is that Watson’s future will first rest in the hands of an arbitrator. After that, if it’s found that a violation of the personal conduct policy occurred, his punishment will ultimately rest in the hands of the NFL and Goodell.

Roger Goodell explains why Watson won't go on commish exempt list
Watson’s potential suspension — or any other possible elements of punishment — is unlikely to be hashed out anytime soon. Instead, the only clarity provided Tuesday was that Watson won’t be going on the commissioner’s exempt list, which is effectively a form of paid leave during a criminal investigation.

Watson was eligible to go on the commissioner’s exempt list last season as the Houston Police Department sorted through complaints against him, but the league was never forced to take that step after Watson and the Houston Texans effectively agreed to his benching during the entirety of the 2021 season. Now he won’t face the prospect of the exempt list in 2022, either.

“The civil cases were in play over the last year,” Goodell said Tuesday. “The only thing that’s changed is the criminal element has been at least resolved, and that was an important element in the context of the commissioner exempt list as discussed with the Players Association. … If the criminal [complaints] had proceeded, that more than likely would have triggered the commissioner exempt. I think at this point, the civil case in and of itself would not do that. If there’s a violation of the personal conduct policy … that more than likely [will] trigger some kind of discipline in some fashion.”

Second sentence seems clear to me.....AND...if the owner isn't disciplined for actual sex at a massage parlor.....how can a player in a he said/she said situation be disciplined......they'll be sued big time over unequal treatment. I get "they can do what they want"....just saying, really? DW could actually be completely innocent and I thought that was our justice system....NO? Go Browns!!!!

the NFL is not "the justice system". And in case you missed it, Jerry Jones was not accused of assaulting or any sexual impropriety by anyone at the massage parlor. You're trying to make a comparison here that does not exist.

Opposing attorney leaks video that paints DW in bad light? That's a move of desperation. He's trying to taint public opinion about DW. If his case is so strong, why do that? So I'm not putting any stock into these leaks. Just let it all play out. That's what I'm sticking to for now. I want to root for him on Sundays, but only if he comes out relatively clean. If it turns out he's guilty across the board, I might have to find a new team while he's in Cleveland. That will be 50 years of fandom down the drain. That would suck.

I expect him to be a young man and couldn't care less about the sex or if he cheated on his girl. And if any of these girls prove he forced them into anything sexual, not talked them into, but physically forced, then I'm done with him and the Browns while he's here. So, my line of thinking is that I don't really care about what he did with willing women or women who went along for the money. But if they said no, and he forced them, then that is unacceptable to me in any way. I think this is a reasonable position.

The thing that I'm trying to prepare myself for, though, is that we're never going to get a definitive answer to your question (and for me, your question is the one that really matters because it cuts through any and all legal, fake morality BS and gets to the heart of the issue).

We'll see. I'm leaning toward him being innocent of forcing sex on these women until solid proof of him doing otherwise. I can't get past him not being willing to settle at this point, and wanting to completely clear his name. You just don't stick to those guns with a 230+ million dollar career on the line, unless you have stones the size of Everest, OR are actually not guilty of what you are being accused of doing.

j/c...

The Rog was pretty vague in his statements about a possible suspension. I wonder if any suspension would be postponed to 2023 if the court cases drag into the season?

It is starting to feel like the Browns know something the rest of us don't. I know it is hard to reconcile his innocence with the sheer number of women making the complaint, but if there are no criminal charges, no evidence and this is the most damning stuff from his deposition, I think he is going to be playing in September. If it plays out that way, I'll have no trouble rooting for him.

Just like the Browns FO was expecting.

Sooner or later the Browns supporters will do whatever it takes to convince themselves that DeShaun Watson is a model citizen. At this point the question among many of the them isn’t if he’s guilty or not, it’s more about why in the fkng hell is it a a civil law suit in the first place?

There is a conspiracy!
These 22 women is lying because they’re either gold diggers and glorified ho(cc)ers, right?
Whatever he has done is nobody’s business and so on.
Why believe in women? Crazy, isn’t it.

This charade will go on until the s h i t hit the fan and reality sets in. To resolve 22 different law suits will take a long time, innocent or guilty doesn’t matter. The lawyer of these 22 women will make the fire continue burning for as long as it takes for him to reach a result. Public opinion matters. Peoples minds will go back and forth until everyone is just tired and unfortunately for the Browns until this is solved one way or another then Watson probably can’t play in the NFL.

Secondly. I’m seriously start to question Andrew Berry’s judgement. $230m guaranteed money! And he’s a master in negotiating? Maybe not available in 2022!? No settlement and they still giving a questionable QB a monster contract unheard off without knowing the final verdict. ‘Comfortable with what we know” my a s s.

Listening to the Ravens owner made me even more convinced that this deal isn’t as good as the Browns painted it out to be. On top of this his handling of Mayfield. Whatever I think of Baker and his sometimes childish behavior it’s clear that our GM fkd it up by trying being over smart. How about being honest and straight forward. Just saying. You know not just talking in vague riddles and expect others to read your hopeful intentions and between the lines. Whatever lame excuse the FO is making there is 18,8m reasons to believe they s c r e w it and 31 other NFL teams seems to think th e same.

This saga isn’t over yet. It has just only begun.

And btw. I think Watson is miles better then Baker and that he will probably succeed at some point but it will cost a fortune and it will cement that people still think that this organizations FO is a walking cluster f*ck.

I think there is a thread in the Tailgate forum discussing the off-the-field situation w/Watson.

From a football standpoint, the Browns went from 35-1 odds of winning the Super Bowl to 16 to 1. I am almost positive that that is the biggest jump that any team has made this off-season. Having a great qb is imperative in today's NFL. The Browns went from having one of the worst to one of the best and Las Vegas took notice.

You pronounced him quilty before being proven quilty and now throw stones at prople who believe that we are innocent until proven guilty.

We have a name for that....

Driving 30 min in Houston isn't weird... traffic here sucks.... taking his own towl is a bit strange and I can't figure out why he'd do that..

Agree, Watson has a good arm/ There I tried to start it back.

He has a favorite detergent and finds the scent relaxing. He doesn't want to get sweat or massage oil on his car seats. He likes being able to clean up and take any evidence with him. Massage therapists offer him discounts if he leaves them a souvenir. He had a past massage giver only have nasty towels or no towels available.

There are a lot of possible reasons.

Just a statement from the other side. There actually is another side to this story.

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/deshau...etending-qb-innocent-evil-185509868.html

Another victim speaks out:

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/wife-mlb-hall-famer-jim-162656224.html

I like your thinking on this. Kraft did roughly the same thing,,, Slap on the wrist.. I just don't see how they can hold the players to a higher standard than the owners.

Not to mention Kraft was even on video, which was conveniently ordered to be destroyed. If they suspend a young black man that two grand juries declined to indict while allowing a rich white guy to go unpunished will open the flood gates for more racist commentary for the NFL, and I'm not sure thats something that they want to do.. On the flip side I think everyone is expecting a suspension to satisfy the call for blood. I'm sure if the NFL doesn't suspend him there will still be those that think he's still guilty. Best thing that can happen is he just gets to move on and "atone" by his actions moving forward. I think if he does get suspended I think the NFL will do so with the intention of reducing the "sentence" in a compromise for both sides

My understanding (which could be wrong) was that Watson's situation isn't as cut-and-dry as Kraft's.

Did a victim "speak out?"

Or did her private message get made public by someone else's virtue signaling?

If Jim Thome's wife wants to cancel her tickets, fine. I don't think the NFL/Brown's need my money either. Framing this as a victim speaking out feels like a stretch, though.

To make sure your DNA comes homes with you and isn't left behind!

Just an outside thought....
I am not liking the continued use of the word "comfortable" in all of the press releases. It is obviously the coached in word by PR. But it has no strength to it. Especially, when they say they "Had to get comfortable" or "become comfortable".

When they do 5 months of research, and investigations. Hiring PI's, speaking with Law Enforcement, reading depositions....Is the word you want to hear is "comfortable".

It just doesn't sit completely right with me. I might prefer "I feel assured that this is a good decision for our team." or "I have faith that, given the chance, Deshaun will provide a strong role in the growth of our community.

Having to "get comfortable" feels more like you don't like your Aunt's side dish at Thanksgiving but are ok with stomaching it to make her feel better...Or that you hate your Pink Bunny Suit Pajamas you got for Christmas, but will wear it when you Aunt comes in to town.

Again...just a thought...It has no bearing on the cases...

Also, anyone could have sent that DM to Thome's wife. I wouldn't put much stock in it.

Thome's wife needs to go away...maybe root for pittsburgh, seem to like that area better....maybe she can get Philly season tickets

Everyone is entitled to their feelings. It's kind of funny that she would put this all out there and then come back with "I'm not doing media on this". Too late, honey... but whatever. What Thome's wife does with her season tix has no bearing on me either way. I'll just wait for more info.

Or you just want to be sure it is a clean towel and she doesn't give you one already soiled.

I have no idea why one would prefer a towel over whatever else, but the one therapist that spoke out for him said she told him to do that.

Your comment and those like them and the attitude you expressed are exactly who she was talking about. She's allowed an opinion just like you. She's allowed to express it just like you. She should not be pillarized because of it.

What women accused Kraft of sexual misconduct allegations? I'll tell you. None. There's nothing similar about the two. It seems the point here is flying right over your head.

Is that what everyone who sides with the victims should do?

It's just another way to cast shade on the victims. It's all the rage around here these days.

Posted there, posted here:

Whoever said this doesn't belong in pure football was wrong. If our QB is a predator, we should talk about it, right along with everything else we scrutinize about players. Tucking an uncomfortable problem/concern into tailgate, doesn't make it less newsworthy, it just means most on the board won't see it. Shameful.

That's not what I meant. People are referencing the towel thing as damning evidence vs Watson. It's not.

I agree. Some people also take their own towels to the gym. It's a non-issue.

I was actually referring to Peen's comment. Sorry about the confusion.

Watson brought his own towel so it would be easier to get naked and gyrate around on the table like a pervert. He either brought his own or suggested a wash cloth during pre-visit interaction.

He didn't like the fact that the accepted means of executing an actual massage has the client wrapped in a sheet... and the masseuse exposing individual parts of the body as she works.

If he was wrapped like a mummy, it would be harder to get to "funky town".


Plain, simple, backed by plenty of facts and evidence.

OCD...I totally agree..! Watson is the Browns QB and he is accused of some terrible conduct that could affect his chances of even seeing the football field for part of the upcoming season...A 100% Pure Browns Football Subject.

Why is it that some board members feel like they have a right to tell others how and where to make a post...I just don't get that.

If it's a board moderator giving advise to a board member, that's fine...

No, it means there are multiple conversations going on regarding him being brought in here. Some are more conducive to pure football, others aren't. It makes it hard(er) to have actual conversations about the various topics when they're all going on at the same time in the same thread.

Then start an off field or DWs Troubles thread. Tucking this in tailgate isn't a good look and definitely will keep many from seeing it. Ten or twenty posters might read it there, here, almost everyone will read it.

How is putting a thread that's about off-field stuff outside of Pure Football a "bad look"?

j/c...

Everyone may as well get used to the fact that "Pure Football" and Deshuan Watson won't peacefully co-exist for a while. I tend to agree with OCD, although I don't think the Tailgate Section would dissuade anyone who wanted to read. At least if you opt out from reading, you know you're opting out of "non-football" talk there.

It is what it is, and unless Purp writes an algorithm that will sort out the laundry into categories, skimming for real football talk will be a chore for a while.

I've found the "ignore" feature useful.

I have a hard time wondering why anybody would want it in the least read section of the board? He's our 'franchise' QB. Put the dirt right out on front street where most of us will see it. Just because some of you want to speculate what he will do on the field doesn't mean all of us are ready to move on from the PRIMARY discussion about DW.

The guidelines for what belongs where is right there on the home page under each forum title.

yep allowed an opinion..noone cares to hear it and once you post it on social media being married to a local celebrity, you are ttrying to drive the narrative or pick sides...nothing more..it was a hey look an opportunity to get my 15 minutes

for there to be a victim there has to be a crime, as of now, there is no crime. There are flimsy allegations..despite your attempt to be judge and jury, theres nothing criminal there...Now if we are using your criteria, Watson is a victim of extortion and a money grab by a sleazy NFL owner and lawyer

You will have to point me to the other instances where this woman was desperate for attention and making statements on SM to get her name in the press. Otherwise, just like I said, you are exactly the person she's talking about.

Eh, there has definitely been a crime or crimes somewhere in this situation. The issue is figuring out which crimes and how to prove them.

Honestly, after I posted, this was the only rational explanation I could come up with... unless dude just really likes his own towels...

I like you Fate. Always have, even when you irritated me. However, OCD said it was "shameful" to not want the legal matters not posted in "Pure Football." The forum descriptions clearly state that the police blotter talk belongs in the Tailgate forum. The Pure Football forum description speaks about how the topics should be about pure football. We have several posters who are butt hurt that Baker is being displaced and are acting like the judge and jury of a criminal trial that does not even exist. Here is what is shameful, bro. Folks not honoring the innocent until proven guilty mandate that is a law in our great nation. It is shameful to assign blame when one doesn't know the all the facts. It is shameful to not keep an open mind and allow the legal system to run its course. It is shameful to be so shallow that one can't admit they were wrong about a certain player and feel some perverted need to trash anyone who points out the reality of the situation.

You're 100% right. I guess I just get used to all his colorful language and hyperbole and peel back the layers to his sentiment. As it reads, it's definitely over the top. And no, I don't agree that it should be posted, I mostly just accept that it will... and will hold no ill-will towards those that feel that strongly. Particularly because the very subject of "off the field" will have a bearing on our team, especially if he is suspended. I'll just continue to skim past the posts much like 80% of the content in PP.

"Shameful", no, not even close. The Tailgate Forum will attract just as much attention if there is a Watson thread in it as any other. It's not like people are too lazy to click on the most galvanizing subject to hit "BrownsTown" since we cut Bernie.

When one of the nations most famous sport personalities has 22 civil law suits against him with involvement of unwanted sexual activities, unwanted inappropriate behavior and him using 50+ massage therapist’s in a span of a couple of years then everyone with a bit of common sense should at least be a little bit on the fence and skeptical about the whole situation.

On top of that you can add that one NFL organization, historically infamous for repeatably bad decisions, has giving this player $230m guaranteed money without even waiting for the final verdicts of these law suits.

How many people do you know who has been accused of unwanted sexual activities and unwanted behavior against 22 women?
How many people do you know being involved in 22 civil law suits?

Being cleared by a GJ when the crime is a he says/she says case inside a room without witnesses says actually nothing if he’s guilty/innocent or not. The pure number of cases makes unfortunately the whole situation uncomfortable, especially if you’re a women.

Here is the thing. In a situation like this when it’s hard to prove crime, going by stats almost impossible, it will be a case where the public opinion will involve other parameters then the fact if he’s guilty or not by the letter of the law when they judge him.

Unfortunately for Deshaun Watson he has to live with that many people will for a long time be highly skeptical about his behavior and his moral compass. Is he a sexual predator or not or is he just a dirty perverse who used his fame and power in a unwanted way is something we will probably never truly find out.

Finally the problem isn’t only about one individual. Anyone knowing about these allegations has every right to question the Browns organization and how they handled there involvement in this tragic story. Their moral compass must be questioned. The way they set up this shameful press conference where they expose their hypocrisy and greedy position about wanting a player no matter what the circumstances leave many supporters uncomfortable.

When Skip Bayless on national television call the Browns a clown show it says something. When Rich Eisen Show talk about the press conference looking like a funeral it’s says something. When some owners of other NFL organizations raise their eyebrows it says something. The list goes on and will probably divide peoples opinion even more.

You maybe have to live with that our new QB will never be totally clear from guilt by the public opinion. This will probably follow him for the rest of his life. Fair? In that question lies the whole problem why we’re discussing this. We all have different views what’s right or wrong. What’s ok for you maybe isn’t ok for others. By trying to cancelling the subject we will just create more toxic discussions.

Both you and I simply don’t know what happened and we will probably never truly find that out. As a Brown supporter we still has to co exist and find a consensus how to move on without end up like internet enemies. I accept your position even if I don’t agree but that doesn’t mean I’m comfortable with the Cleveland Brown, their FO and our new QBs moral compass.

Everybody though Sam Sheppard was guilty. At least until he wasn't.

People are funny. If you hear something twice, it becomes true to them.

The first time someone tells you the average person swallows 30 bugs in their life while sleeping, you say "No, that can't be true, really?".

The second time you hear that, you say, "I have heard that before".

The next time you are the one telling people how many bugs they swallow while sleeping.

Funny you bring up Sheppard. My Grandparents knew him personally....I remember vaguely them speaking about being bewildered about that whole situation.

J/C

A thought has occurred to me in this whole Watson case/situation. It's likely it's been brought up by others, but I don't remember seeing it. This is a question - not victim blaming, so don't even go there. Did any of the accusers express that they tried to leave the massage room and were not "allowed" to by Watson? I guess my question is, if a person you are massaging tries to get you do to things you don't want to do, can't you leave the room, and if so, why didn't they? I've never had a massage, so I don't know.

I saw one testimonial from a female who supported DeShaun. Basically saying “massage therapists are always trained to leave the room if there’s any discomfort”. Not sure how true that is

Thanks for the response, Dawgs4!

You are right. The word "shameful" just disturbed me. I'll bow out and let the high and mighty moral majority continue to rant and rave about how they know that Watson is guilty of all the allegations.

People are entitled to their feelings/opinions. And I'll go one step further and say (with this being a message board and all) that they're entitled to post said feelings.

But IMO, that doesn't entitle them to be an arbiter of where/if things are/aren't posted. Splitting this conversation was meant to do justice to both parts of the convo, and moving the one part to Tailgate was meant to align the (IMO) pretty black-and-white guidelines of what belongs where. No controversy.

I honestly don’t think that’s the case.

Most people I know is highly skeptical about stories like this until they know more. Another thing when it comes to the he say/she say conflict regarding his unwanted behavior is that mostly it takes two too tango. So the narrative that we who’re skeptical think that all 22 women are innocent and Watson is the only one we want to blame isn’t even something that at least has been part of my judgement. I don’t even look at the blaming part that way.

What I do know is that when 22+ women says the same thing then it’s a high possibility that these allegations has some sort of truth in it. Maybe not the whole truth but I can’t just ignore it and brush it over just because a GJ didn’t find evidence enough. It’s far more complicated then just braking the law or not when it comes to being a NFL franchise QB earning $$$ millions.

Secondly this isn’t only about Deshaun Watson.

Me and many others frustration is even more directed at the Browns owners, our GM and HC who’s playing along in this charades. Their defense about “they feel comfortable” feels false because of the hypocrisy that involve most of their answers. Do they actually think that all supporters is totally stupid and believe in all the c r a p that they spit out on the press podium.

I can honestly actually forgive Deshaun Watson if he show some sort of remorse. He don’t have to admit total guilt but at least acknowledge that something probably went wrong regarding his understanding of the situation in the way he “used”his massage therapists when 22 of these women is willing to go to court to prove their case.

The number of women actually counts when it comes to credibility even if in theory it shouldn’t be that way.

When it comes to the owners and our GM/HC I have lost faith. Being young like Watson and maybe a little bit to “hot” is sometimes part of life when you’re on your way up. I give Deshaun the benefit of doubt that his intentions was probably much better then these women thought it was but it ended a little bit bad. So for me it isn’t black and white.

Thanks bud good to see you on here

While that's true I think this topic walks a fine line. Maybe because the off field issues are relevant to what may or may not happen on the field. Any suspension watson faces over this will have a direct impact with the team on the field. The two are directly connected.

But then do any of our opinions about where this discussion belongs really matter? Let's look at the facts. The person who owns this board and those who ref for him, over the course of three threads running their course on this topic have not moved any of them to another forum. It is totally their decision to make. It seems other than a few posters who consider themselves somehow the authority on what belongs in Pure Football and what doesn't, the actual people that make such decisions seem to have allowed it to remain as a Pure Football topic.

That's what you say to disregard 22 women? Speaking of flimsy.

Awe..... I'll let those who try and dismiss 22 women over the word of one rich athlete try to spin this like it's someone else ranting and raving stupidity. And you may want to check your comprehension issue. Nowhere on this entire board has anyone stated that watson is "guilty of all the allegations".

What has been said is that it would take mental gymnastics to convince yourself he isn't guilty of any of them. You just had your daily work out.

I mostly agree with you, and I acknowledge I'm no arbiter about how/if things are posted here. IMO, splitting the convos makes for better discussion on both topics and so it was a good move. I am unaware that Tailgate is some sort of back alley when it comes to the forums on here. If it is, then mea culpa.

I can't speak to the refs' decision to leave it alone. I agree with you that the topic of NFL suspension sufficiently blurs the lines. If I wanted to argue, I'd say that the least talked-about portion of Watson coming here has been the part about NFL suspension.

Well, the opinions do matter to me (and others). Otherwise nobody would post here. Splitting the convos was intended as a helpful improvement.

I just find him hard to believe. And when he pleaded the 5th it pretty much told me he's been lying. Man I just hope we don't get screwed by this deal. He's such a good kid and excellent football player but this can be a sickness that he won't be able to control as he is refusing any help saying he never did anything wrong to seek help.

You're back a week and telling me how to post. I didn't miss you, but you know that. Let's keep things good in here and not address each other. And I'll post what I want, you don't like it, go away again.

I'm not bashing DW, but it all needs to be discussed. Unlike you and some others, many fans/posters have a real issue with this signing that is very much pure football.

PSA FOR ALL POSTERS: Vers and I don't get along. I don't consider him good/bad/other; we simply just don't get along. That said, he has a habit of trying to control what gets posted like it's something personal. I just want you all to know, YOU do YOU. Vers is a good 'football knowledge' poster, but his opinions on what you should or should not post don't carry any weight whatsoever, nobody but the mods and Purp have that power.

But Purp did set guidelines for what should be posted in which forum. Police blotter related stuff is supposed to go in Tailgate according to those guidelines. He's not so much trying to control what you post, but, like many of us, he'd like to see certain things in the place that it has been indicated by the powers that be that they are supposed to go.

Some of us get annoyed when rules and guidelines are ignored. Sometimes we don't feel like reading about anything but pure, on the field football. That is supposed to be what this forum is for. When our pure football is tainted, it can make bad moods worse.

This is EXACTLY why I’d prefer that Watson’s legal issues be talked about in Tailgate. I’d like to read more on how we can utilize him along with the skill players and OL we have, but it’s boring and feels like a time-waster to scroll through a thread and see nothing except arguments over 22 alleged victims, a looming suspension, the endless merry-go-round.

Just my opinion.

At this point, the Browns don't know who their starting QB is going to be when the season starts and that is a football subject that has been discussed in Pure Football since I've been a member of this board.

There have been stories in newspapers, magazines on the internet, on pod casts and blogs and all of those stories concerning the Browns problem of not knowing who their starting QB will be on opening day...THOSE STORIES ARE ON NFL SPORTS PAGES, all around the United States...and not on the local police blotter of your local newspaper.

There is absolutely no reason the Watson story should be treated differently by DAWGTALK than it is treated in all the other locations I named above.. What the hell are some of you afraid of and why are you so bent on changing where the Browns QB situation is discussed..?

Imthebossofeveryone returned to the board. Standby to be criticized for siding with me on this one. Somebody will be along shortly to tell you.

OCD...do think I give a rats behind about being "criticized" for agreeing with you or anyone, for that matter...lol

I'm just not a follower..never have been, and I have had enough experience in life to feel comfortable with my views as well as the views of some others, in some cases.

There is so much information that is available if folks are willing to search for it. I don't see how this can be good for Watson and the Browns unless it is simply overlooked by the NFL and the former U.S. District Court Judge Sue Robinson, the act as an impartial arbitrator in disciplinary cases like Watson’s.

IMO, this might be a tough sell to convince the Judge...

Deshaun Watson Admits Sexual Encounters with Masseuses, Always ‘Consensual’


Alicia larocca, April 9, 2021
link

Deshaun Watson‘s attorney says the QB admits he had sexual encounters with some of his massage therapists over the years — but insists it was always consensual.

“Were there consensual encounters? Yes,” Watson’s attorney, Rusty Hardin, said Friday while addressing the media.

A reporter followed up with this question — “So, you’re saying on Instagram, Deshaun reached out to some of these women booking a legitimate massage and then engaged in consensual sex acts with some of these women?”

Hardin’s response: “On some occasions, some sexual activities would have taken place,”

“I’m not going into what it is, or the nature, or the numbers, or with whom but I think you can rightfully assume that.”

“The question that we have always been emphasizing, never at any time under any circumstances … did this young man ever engage in anything that was not mutually desired by the other party.”

The point of Hardin’s news conference was to point out that Deshaun deserves a fair shot to defend himself in court instead of letting the case play out in the media.

Hardin’s defense team explained why they believe Watson is a good man who never crossed the line with any of the accusers.

But, several questions remain … specifically regarding the now confirmed sexual activity with various massage therapists.

Hardin explained Watson gets roughly 150 massages per year to keep his body in prime shape for his job as an NFL quarterback.

He also said it’s not unusual for millennials to use Instagram to find businesses to patronize … including massage therapists.

Hardin says another reason Watson used Instagram as a tool to find massage therapists is because COVID made it difficult to find a regular masseuse.

When asked what Deshaun’s reaction has been to the mounting lawsuits, Hardin put it this way:

“He’s dumbfounded. He’s truly dumbfounded.”

“If you’re the average citizen that’s never been caught up in anything, this is insane. That’s really his reaction.”

“When I told him of that first allegation and the third lawsuit that somehow he used force or something, I didn’t know him at the time, when I told him he was in disbelief.”

“He asked me two or three times, ‘I forced her?!’ and then he just started crying. That’s his reaction and that the thing for yall to remember. we don’t cry about things that we did.”

For more updates check below links and stay updated with News AKMI.

Hey mac, long time, no see. I am not going to criticize you for your position. I objected to OCD calling my claim "shameful." He comes back w/be prepared to be criticized. I don't know........calling someone "shameful" seems rather critical.

It was. I meant it.

To me, the biggest thing Watson will bring is his ability to use his feet. If you are playing with a QB who can't make things happen when he runs, you are playing with one less weapon.

It's just one more thing that a defense has to defend. To somewhat defend that, teams will have to have a spy or sit in a zone D. It will be important that we have receivers who are adept and finding the soft spots in the zone.

Once we have that, we are going to be pretty tough.

peen..As everyone knows, in the NFL it can be detrimental to their health if a QB relies on his legs too much.

I have a saying that pertains to running QBs..."they run until they can't run...then they have to learn how to throw from the pocket"....

Yeah! That's what I'm talking about.

That's my quarterback, that's my teammate.

vers...I didn't go anywhere..I've been right here...I thought you were gone for good.

I do see that some of your old habits have not changed and that's a bit disappointing, imo.

Getting hung up on a word, such as "shameful"... I have to laugh at that when I think about some of the creative language used on this board in the back and forth conversations that occur almost daily...shameful is rather mild, imo.

This message board has been functioning as good or better than it ever has as the moderators have allowed the board's subject matter and discussions to flow without interruption. It seems that we have fewer arguments and less needless bickering over "stupid stuff" and hopefully fewer complaints in the fan feedback forum...though there is no way to know how many are complaining to the Refs via private message.

vers...speaking for myself, your knowledge of football is welcomed..but my discussion of the Browns current QB "mess" will continue, right here in Pure Football, if the moderators allow it. The DawgTalk moderators and owner run this message board and they are doing a good job, imo.

Right. And this guy knows how to do both.

In case you missed the last 10 or so years, QB's aren't big clods back there like when Bernie played. They have been running since middle school football.

Also, QB's have been getting racked up while standing in the pocket for decades, so I don't see any difference. Also, I'd bet more QB's still get hurt more in the pocket than outside.

peen...really..?

Tom Brady....that guy sure runs a lot, doesn't he..?

Look at all the QB's under 30 or so. If that is the basis of your argument, you lose.

peen... ...lol..

So now you move the goal post and begin to add "stipulations" like QBs under 30 or so, in an attempt to discredit the most successful QB in NFL history...

Pocket Passer, Tom Brady

Good points. What's crazy is that Watson is a very good passer from the pocket and Baker sucks at it.

I didn't move anything. In my first post I said if you haven't noticed that over the last 10 years things have changed. Brady has been around a lot longer than that.

It's not my fault you haven't noticed and bring up old Tom Brady. And Tom Brady isn't the one I discredit.

He is and Baker does..

So watsons attorney said it shouldn't be played out in the media while he's playing it out in the media. Makes perfect sense. lmao

When did the Browns sign you to play?

Watson is definitely not a run first QB. He can run, but that is not his game.

You do realize that "old Tom Brady" is considered by almost everyone as the GOAT, right?

I'm really not disagreeing with you that the trend in the NFL hasn't been leading to more mobile QB's. To me that much is obvious. The issue that has not as of yet been resolved is how long will these more mobile QB's stand the test of time from a health standpoint? And it's certainly not going to be a one size fits all answer to that question.

You have less accurate mobile QB's like Lamar Jackson who has to depend on his legs more. Then you have QB's like watson who can perform well from the pocket and have mobility as a second option. A QB like watson has a a far greater likelihood of standing the test of time than someone like Lamar Jackson imo

Really? I didn't know that.

By reading your comments it was hard to tell one way or the other.

peen....did Tom Brady play in the last 10 years?

That is why I mentioned him as an example of a successful NFL QB who didn't have to rely on his legs to generate a successful passing game. As a result of Brady's style, being a pocket passer has led to Brady extending his career to 22 seasons, though he did injury a knee in the first game of the 2008 season, missing the entire season.

There is no doubt that a QB who is mobile can escape pressure by using his legs, but there is risk of injury involved.

Protect your QB via the OLine..give him the best offensive weapons...devise a core offensive strategy that relies on moving the sticks/making first downs...and practice the offense until everyone knows there assignment and executes without hesitation. These basic elements can help to protect your QB better than simply hoping your QB can outrun defenders.

jmho

Brady ran a 5.28 40 before he was drafted and only got slower as he aged. He couldn't make a living with his legs if he wanted to

Damn, I never read about that part with the towel, that's kind of weird. What if the towel he brought was significantly smaller than the standard issue used for a massage?

Maybe DW loves poetry and read Charles Bukowski, as in your sig !

Being a Browns fan falls under your sig !

I'll support DW weird or not ! I don't know one not weird person in my life ever !

My preference was only for separate threads (per your point above). Both topics are important and both need space to breathe. If being relegated to the Tailgate is some Scarlet letter for conversation topics, then we can move the other thread to PF if people want. To me, the best conversation will happen while the two topics remain as separate as possible.


Regarding Watson the football player: dude is absolutely an upgrade at the position. He's what Lamar Jackson (and by extension, Harbaugh) dreams himself to be.

I was wondering about something about him and how we expect him to do, and I was hoping someone with the knowledge could chime in.

So it's well known that Watson has never played with the Oline and running game that we have here. Obviously, both of those are going to make his life easier (teams have to account for Chubb/Hunt in the backfield/deadly PA, and the Oline is going to give him cleaner pockets than he's seen probably since college). But the flip side is that he's also played with better pass-catchers than it looks like we're going to give him this year (DeAndre + Will Fuller + they had a decent TE catching passes vs Amari, ?, and Njoku). So how does that +/- work out on the field? Do they sorta cancel each other out? Does the WR situation not really matter, to an extent, when you have a QB like Watson back there?

People, people, people. The “Innocent til proven guilty” trope has nothing to do with anything outside a court of law. And the same trope can be very often wrong. So, let’s stop trotting it out there.

I'd say a foundational principle of our criminal justice system is not a trope.

And what does it have to do with outside a court of law? Corporations often avoid people with bad reputations like the plague. They lose endorsements, contracts and nobody wants anything to do with them.

And how exactly does one determine the guilt or innocence of someone in a he said/she said" case? That may not be what's considered enough evidence for a conviction, but does that really determine which one is lying and which one isn't? All that principal you speak of provides for is that someone is found not guilty. Not that they're proven innocent. It simply means that not enough evidence was brought forth to determine guilt. In a he said/she said case you have to look at other factors to make a decision in your own mind. O.J. was found not guilty and almost nobody believes he was innocent.

The NFL is the modern equivalent of gladiatorial games. No one went to the arena to see moral pillars of society. People go to see the carnage, mayhem, and spectacle.

The NFL isn't providing a physical product and the employees aren't directly providing service to customers. The employees are violent entertainers.

They provide an outlet for humanity's baser instincts.

If your business doesn't want associated with violence, they probably shouldn't be working with football in the first place.

People tend to lose sight of that aspect of football, but it is what it is.

I half expect Watson to pick up endorsements from Trojan and the gambling establishment any day now.

IMO, the reality lies somewhere in between those two extremes. I just am struggling to figure out where (and why).

No, NFL athletes in general aren't beacons of morality. But the Watson situation is/could push the limit of what we are willing to tolerate. While we (NFL fans in general) seem to be pretty tolerant of bad/criminal behavior, I also see a large portion of the fanbase drawing a line in the sand. What's more, that line is being drawn without a lot of evidence, and in such a way that a LOT of current NFL athletes have already crossed. I'm not trying to debate where different people put that line, but want to know why.

j/c,

I think that the bridge of morality was burnt down long ago in the NFL.

I mean Ray Lewis was a suspect in a murder investigation and went on the win the Super Bowl.

The entire league hid information about potential brain damage to NFL players.

Yes, for years they knew.

IMO people tend to give second chances. But not before or without those who have made mistakes first paying a penalty, seeking help and apologizing for what they have done. Kareem Hunt and Adrian Peterson are such examples. Watson is in a legal position where he can not do either of those things. The entire premise of a "get out of jail free" because you are an athlete or "an athlete shouldn't be held to the same standard as the rest of society because he plays football" is a cop out at the very least.

And I keep hearing these sexual encounters called "creepy" when in fact they are still criminal behavior in most of these cases. Just because something isn't "sexual assault" doesn't lessen the fact that they still wrong and often times still criminal. Much like yourself I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. I'm certainly not convinced he's guilty of all 22 accusations. But the accusers attorney does have a reputation of winning and he didn't accomplish that by "rounding a bunch of liars up" to make his cases. Attorney's on both sides have a long list of famous clients so the "He's only doing it for fame" is a sword that cuts both ways.

Now I've even heard some contrived story about how the accusers attorney wants to lose. That's how desperate it has gotten.

I think the sides of the line on this case frequently correlate with people's views on sex in general. If people think sex with multiple partners is bad, they see Watson as bad. If people see sex with multiple partners as neither morally good nor bad in itself, they are more open to seeing the facts.

Or they see sexual impropriety with multiple people as being wrong. The word you're missing here is "consent". I don't care how many people a person has sex with. I'm pretty sure someone's wife would but that's between the two of them. When you try to force sexual advances it's an entirely different matter. But then of course you know that.

But are they more likely to believe the impropriety or not based on their beliefs about sex?

Would you have sex with multiple women? If your answer is no, you might be more biased than you think.

I wouldn't now because I'm married. But once again that's a an issue between a husband and wife. When I was a younger man and single I most certainly did. This is about sexual aggression and forcing yourself on someone in a sexual way. There's really no comparison to be made there. I don't care how many women a man sleeps with or has any sexual encounter with as long as it's consensual. Trying to blur the lines between the two is another reach. Trying to force myself on a woman in a sexual manner is something I have most certainly never done. Is it that difficult to understand the difference?

The difference isn't difficult. Making assumptions about what actually happened is also easy.

Aren't you 2 already having this discussion here -> https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthre.../1/watson-trade-off-the-field-iii#UNREAD

It is odd you keep bringing up OJ. In the OJ case the grand jury found enough evidence to take it to trial. The trial concluded with a "not guilty" verdict. With Watson there hasn't been enough evidence to even indict him, so he is still innocent until prven guilty.

The US legal system is not based on mob rule or sovereign dictate, which is the style of system you seem to favor. "I know he done it, look at him he's guilty!". Thankfully this is not how it works. Before or system a man would have to prove he was innocent, if he was even given a chance. I'd rather not see that system in play.

Yes. And there's also an option provided for those who do not wish to discuss this. But it's mainly been ignored.

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1933418/pure-football-the-deal#Post1933418

So far, after three compete threads not one ref on this board has moved this discussion from the Pure Football forum. That is a very strong indication it's perfectly appropriate here despite the desires of some.

I keep trying to steer it there.

The place I think DeShaun will help us the most is 3rd/4th down and short and red zone. His mobility gives us a lot more options.

You obviously don't understand the difference between a case with physical evidence and a he said/she said scenario. And your "mob rule" scenario is hilarious. None of us are going to form a lynch mob to go out and kill watson. You either believe all 22 of these women are lying or you don't.

Your brain is way too binary (or is it bipolar?) Those aren't the only two options.

So if you believe some of them are telling the truth you must also believe watson is guilty at least in some of the accusations. That hasn't been the picture you have portrayed.

I believe some/all of them could be telling the truth. However, I don't know. The deeper I dig, the more I believe that there's a possibility that some of them (up to possibly all of them) are lying.

We did pretty well there until you got to the "possibly all of them" part. Their attorney isn't some ambulance chaser who would base a case on 22 liars.

And still nothing of substance in response.

OK let me ask you a honest question in front of everybody bro. IF the ciVil trial ends up with zero rewards against WATSON. What will you do and how will you post about Watson???

You didn't ask me, but I'm going to give my answer anyway.

For me, what matters is what did or did not happen during those sessions. I'm looking at the pieces of evidence that do come out because sometimes in civil lawsuits the outcome doesn't always line up with who is in the wrong.

Where's the beating a dead horse emoji when you need it? You've reached the point where you're quoting yourself to continue an argument.

I have been somewhat following this dialogue. No skin in the game as I am waiting until as much information comes out as possible. If one can accept the possibility that Watson may be guilty of some or all of the charges, can't it also be possible that some or all of the accusers are lying.

I can absolutely see a situation where several plaintiffs who tried to reach a settlement and failed then contacted an attorney and said attorney tried to entice others to join. IT also is possible he did all these things and more but I find it hard for someone to be so certain, especially when none of the accusers or the victim are known to any of us.

I know people who would do just about anything for a buck and not that I know anyone who would be guilty of this many "assaults or harassments" there are bound to be some. I could also see a high level athlete who has had coaches, boosters etc bail them out of trouble, think they could get away with it. My previous sentence does not mean I know he has been a privileged athlete, just that I believe many exist.

I don't think I have read too many posters who are certain he is innocent, but you seem to be certain he has to be guilty of at least some just because of the shear #.

Not trying to argue, just can't figure out why you are so certain, and then criticize those who are not claiming they are certain, juts want to know more facts before trying to make up their mind. I know my comments won't get anything settled but good lord no one is changing anyone's mind.

jc...

Judge requires Deshaun Watson to answer questions about consensual sex with other massage therapists

Posted by Mike Florio on April 5, 2022, 8:50 PM EDT
link

As part of his initial P.R. campaign after being sued by 22 women who allege sexual misconduct during massage therapy session, Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson produced statements of support from 18 other massage therapists whose services he used. Now, Watson will be required to discuss whether he had sex with any of those 18 persons.

Via Brent Schrotenboer of USA Today, a Texas judge has ruled that Watson must respond to questions aimed at determining whether he had sex with one or more of the 18 therapists who came to his defense.

The argument in favor of getting access to the evidence is simple. It shows Watson’s motives when arranging massage sessions, especially through social-media platforms like Instagram. If he was in the habit of having consensual sex with some of the therapists, it’s reasonable for a jury to conclude that he may have entered other sessions with a similar objective.

Watson had objected to providing the information. That prompted a request for the court to resolve the situation. The judge agreed with the plaintiffs.

Watson was not required to provide information about whether he had sexual relations with other women who have not come forward publicly. That’s a confusing middle ground on the issue. If it’s fair to find out whether Watson had a pattern and practice of engaging in sexual relations with massage therapists, it shouldn’t matter whether the individuals have come forward publicly to support him. The evidence is relevant to his pattern and practice, even if the individuals with whom he engaged in said pattern and practice have never issued any type of statement relevant to the case.

Last year, attorney Rusty Hardin admitted that some of Watson’s massages became consensual sexual encounters. His state of mind when hiring massage therapists — shaped by his habits as established with other massage therapists — would seem to be critical to proving whether he crossed the line with massage therapists who weren’t inclined to have a massage become more than one.

Said before, we had issues with a QB that got a speeding ticket. We had issues with a QB that made an internet post. It isn't a stretch to have issues with a QB that had 22 sexual assault allegations made, is it?

Now Watson's team will request to know whether or not they've had sex with every client they've ever had. Have to see if there's an established pattern. Fair's fair. Bring them all in. Did she ever make you uncomfortable? Did she make you aroused?

This is likely to be an ugly mess all around.

I really don't like lawyers. Liable to turn into even more of a smear-fest now.

Nope

Judge rules Deshaun Watson must answer questions about relationships with other massage therapists

Specifically, Watson must give information on whether or not he had consensual sex with 18 additional women who have supported him against allegations of misconduct.

Author: WKYC Sports Staff
link
Published: 10:34 PM CDT April 5, 2022
Updated: 4:50 AM CDT April 6, 2022
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CLEVELAND — *EDITOR'S NOTE: The above video is from a previous story.

There is a new legal twist for Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson, who is already facing civil suits from 22 different women accusing him of sexual misconduct.

This time, it involves women who have publicly supported him.

A Texas judge ruled Tuesday that Watson must answer questions about whether or not he had consensual sex with 18 other massage therapists last year. All of these women have defended Watson against allegations of wrongdoing since authorities first began investigating last March.

In court depositions, Watson had previously refused to answer such questions, saying it was "private," "not relevant," and "harassing." However, lawyers for the 22 women suing him say the answers are needed to show a pattern in Watson's behavior.

RELATED: Experts weigh in on Browns QB Deshaun Watson's legal battle

Watson now has 30 days to answer these questions in writing, and must also produce other information about his history with massages and his actions according to his old Houston Texans contract dating back to 2019.

At the hearing today, Watson's representation strongly objected to the judge's ruling, but was overruled. The quarterback has denied all accusations of wrongdoing, and it is unknown if there could be an appeal.

Watson, who did not play at all in 2021 as his legal situation and trade request played out, was acquired by the Browns last month and immediately signed a new deal worth $230 million guaranteed. Two Texas grand juries declined to issue criminal charges in the case, but it is possible he could still face a suspension from the NFL.

In a he said she said case there's no actual physical evidence. All of these posters claiming "they want to see the evidence first" aren't going to find some grand mountain of evidence with which to make such a determination and as such will call t a victory for watson if no judgements are awarded. IMO it will all boil down to one thing. In a criminal trial they don't usually allow other victims to testify although they did allow one other victim to testify in the Bill Cosby case.

Unlike many posters here, juries tend to lend credence to an overwhelming amount of victims when the situations of each victim follows a pattern. So depending on what the judge allows in at trial will be a huge contributing factor as to the outcome.

In short, unless all of his victims can be impeached in some form or fashion I will always have a hard time being convinced of his innocence.

Once again, in this case comprehension isn't your strong suit. I'm asking someone to address the content of a post rather than just attack in response. Better luck next time.

Well of course it's only reasonable to say if a woman had sex with four or five people she must always agree to have sex with everyone.

I suggested just recently in this thread that the best thing Watson and his camp could do is to settle all these 22 civil law suits cases by giving these women some money. Let it cost. He have 230m reasons. 1m or $10m doesn’t matter, just get rid of it.

That didn’t land well among some of the Watson “defenders” that didn’t like a monetary settlement.
HE’S INNOCENT!
WHY SHOULD HE PAY FOR SOMETHING HE THINK HE DIDN’T DO!?

Exactly. Why should he pay if he’s innocent?

Well today we got our first answer.

Kaboom!! Did you have more sexual meetings or not? And that question was if he had sex with these women that supports him. Soon probably more “easy” questions will come.

Do we start to see a pattern here?

When will this sink in? This isn’t primarily about if it’s criminal or not. Being legally innocent will not help him if it’s proven he had repeatedly sexual meetings and probably was paying for these women’s “services”. The main stream media and the Twitter mob will not stop and ask yourself who’s going to pay the price for this ongoing media circus?

I've never claimed that some of his accusers may not be lying. All of them lying is quite a stretch. That would take a concerted effort by an attorney to plot and plan in criminal activity to get 22 people to commit perjury. To plot a pattern of behavior that would line up their story. To me that isn't a practical train of thought. The reason I find that not to be practical is the entire career of their attorney. There is nothing in his past to indicate he isn't a reputable litigator. For this to have happened he would have had to have done a complete 180 from everything he has done before this point in time.


And that's the thing about it. There is nothing, zero in their attorney's past that shows any indication he has ever conducted himself in such a manner. He has big $$ settlements in some of the most prestigious cases. If the attorney had questionable law practices in his past or had consorted with questionable characters to build cases, I may think otherwise. And one must also consider what is meant by "guilt" in a civil case. In a civil case one must be considered guilty by a preponderance of the evidence, not beyond a reasonable doubt. Which means more likely guilty than not.


And there are crooked lawyers who would represent these kind of people without vetting any of them because they have poor reputations to begin with. Those type of attorney's have nothing to lose. I have shown the cases and even the award he received as attorney of the year in the state of Texas for winning huge cases against highly influential corporations that had a bevvy of lawyers to fight against him. This man has a reputation to protect. And yes, history has shown that great athletes are often protected. I can't even name the number of times we've seen athletes drafted in the NFL only to find out later they attended college for years, passing their courses which allows them to play, only to find out later they can't even read.


It's not as much their uncertainty as it is the lengths they go to in justifying their uncertainty. Once again in a civil setting it's the preponderance of the evidence and not beyond a reasonable doubt. Some of these justifications I've addressed in my response to you already. They've attacked the character of their attorney as justification. Yet their attorney has a stellar career as a litigator. They have tried to portray these women as all being prostitutes and of low moral character. And as you yourself have stated, without knowing them.

What I have done is look at who their attorney is. What is his record as an attorney and what is his reputation in the legal profession? Does he have a reputation to protect and would simply rounding up and convincing a bunch of women to lie be a positive thing for him or something he is known to do? Does he have a pattern of presenting shady cases?

So for me to believe that at least some of these women aren't telling the truth would be an epic reach of faith given the circumstances. It would mean an attorney with a very high reputation would have abandoned everything in his professional past. It would mean with all of his resources as a very successful litigator that he didn't vet any of his clients or do background checks on them and their reputations. So with the standard set at the preponderance of the evidence, meaning more likely than not I'm pretty damned convinced.

So pretty much you're saying you've read a multimillionaire's advertising, and you believed it. And you've blocked out/ignored anything that didn't agree with your views.

The cases, who those clients were and the outcome are true and public information. That's not advertising.

And then of course we can add that massage therapists were spreading the word about his behavior. That NFL players themselves have spoken out about how having that amount of massage therapists, more than 50 total over the time span, is certainly a crazy number. Then we can add that if you want sexual gratification you would call an escort service and not a massage therapist. Sometimes you have to permit logic to enter into the discussion rather than trying to label everything that comes to light as slanted or bias.

If they're cherry picking only the victories and the biggest settlements, it's advertising. Now if you included the lawsuits he filed against his political opponent for publicity and then lost, I might believe you were being objective.

Calling escorts for sex is illegal. Calling for a massage is legal. He "called" for massages. Sex was sometimes a bonus. So he liked to mix business with pleasure, that's not a crime. If sex happened, it happened, but he did want the massages. As far as I've heard, no one has claimed thàt no massage took place.

With regards to the sports massage vs untrained massage complaint, sometimes you need treatment, sometimes you just want to relax. Watson's more likely to get injured during sex than a bad massage, and no one is complaining about other players' sex lives.

Calling and hiring anyone for something sexual is illegal. Massage therapists included. At least if you're going to call someone expecting to have sex, call someone that's actually known for giving you sex.

Other players aren't being accused of unwanted sexual advances. It seems you're still having a problem separating consensual sex with unwanted sexual advances. The lack of being able to distinguish between the two obviously happens far more times than I had ever realized before.

You have done everything but call Buzzbee an ambulance chaser and you claim I only point out the good? That's pretty rich.

1. Which is why he never hired anyone for sex, and no one involved in the legal case has claimed so.

2. I have no trouble differentiating. You have trouble with assuming which one happened based on hearsay and inherently biased witness testimony.

3. I admit that he's won big cases (that had slam dunk physical evidence.) You keep ignoring everything unsavory about him. Being an effective attorney doesn't make one an arbiter of the truth. I might be tempted to argue, that in general, being an especially "effective" attorney indicates the opposite. But I may have just seen too many episodes of Suits.

At the same time, if people want to hold the where there's smoke there's fire argument for Watson, why can't it be applied to Buzbee? Watson was at the top of his field with a sterling reputation until recently. Buzbee has been linked to scandals for decades (going back at least to his 2002 run for the Texas State House.)

Seriously, read the Texas weekly article (linked in the tailgate forum thread), tell me three concerning facts about Buzbee from it (there are plenty to choose from,) and maybe I'll believe you read it. Otherwise, I'll strongly suspect that you're specifically only looking for things that support the conclusion that you've already come to.

Not sure this kind of logic needs a rebuttal though. It's just plainly absurd.

Is it safe to say that the Lex in your name isn't there because of your knowledge of the law (Lex=law in Latin)? It wasn't an argument so much as an important distinction as far as the legal ramifications.

It isn't an important distinction, its an ill-informed argument. It's also illegal to pay for an 'escort' and just happening to have sex. It is why massage parlors get closed down for this exact same thing.

https://kvia.com/news/2021/08/03/fa...e-parlor-shut-down-amid-sex-allegations/

Just top hit on google for one.

Edit: And I am pretty sure you don't want to be playing name games either. Id prefer an conversation between adults, sound good?

So you're saying there isn't the matter of intent? If you tip a bartender, you can't legally take her home after? If the intent of hiring the woman was to have sex, it was illegal. If his intent was only to get the massage, and then he was offered sex separate from the payment, it's legal.

It wasn't really a name game. Do you have a J. D.?

For there to be a crime, intent is an element that has to be "proven." Maybe they can, but then the women will also be facing potential charges. I don't think either side really wants that.

Maybe people should take a look at the total picture. Supposedly, there are 50 women that are associated with the expected massage with a happy ending with Watson. There are some that have admitted they willingly provided the service. It would appear that Watson prefers variety - I'm not sure that you could twist it any other way when you're talking about 50 plus women. This number would clearly indicate intent which from what I've seen is being pushed in the depositions. The women who are saying they provided the service as arranged without a problem are building the case for the accusers because this will show intent on Watson's part. When you have over 50 women associated with Watson and a group claims that they knew what was expected, the 22 that said "no" becomes more victimized. Unless something has changed, "no" still means "no" and IMHO is going to be the problem for Watson. The more women that give testimony that they serviced Watson will show a trend with intent. If there is let's say 30 that say they knew and serviced him as such, you can bet your bottom dollar that Watson expected the same service from the remaining 20. I think people are going to hear things that will shock them Not only from the women that serviced him with what he wanted but how he either tried too or forced the women who said "no" to do those things to him.

I don't believe this is going to go away anytime soon and will be like a dumbbell around Watson's neck on a weekly basis. With each report, hearing, or interview - the Cleveland Browns and their QB will be front page every time. Here's something everyone should keep in mind - Watson has to win every case to vindicate his name, only one of the 22 has to win to ruin him. Just one win will open up the floodgates because those who haven't filed yet will certainly file after a single win.

So far I've heard about oral and masturbation, did he have actual intercourse with any of them? Pit, I know massage therapists are supposed to be for massages only, but don't pretend men with money don't buy sex via that route. Sounds like Instagram is on its way to be a backpage/OnlyFans hybrid. I'm not sure what if anything DW actually did wrong, but he is sure as hell guilty of being a special kind of rich creep, right along with Robert Kraft. He knew damn well what he wanted when he called these women. Nobody will ever prove different. It's still too early to tell if he is also a predator, but 50+ different therapists is starting to damn sure paint that picture. Such a Browns' thing to do, give up the future to get this kid, then watch this take him down, and he never plays a snap. But what I actually think is going to happen is that DW will get his second chance after paying some kind of settlement on these cases. The whole truth will never see the light of day, and we fans will be left to trust whatever the FO puts out on him. He will play in Cleveland, and if he can keep it in his pants, he will have some success. But since we're the Browns, you have to expect him to get suspended, then do more stupid crap to get banned.

jc..

The best thing Watson could do is settle the lawsuits, admit he messed up big time and agree to seek counseling.

This image Watson and his lawyer are trying to sell to the public..that Watson is just 'a perfect human being' and sought 150 messages a year just to keep his football body tuned...it's just not realistic.

People in general, especially Browns fans, can be forgiving of almost anything...just don't try to feed folks a bunch of bs.

jmho..mac

You know, it occurs to me that if Watson would have just availed himself to the massage experts that the team would have gladly provided, none of this would have happened.

With that out there, then yeah, he's an idiot. A rich athlete that felt he couldn't be touched.. (no pun intended)

So while he may or may not be guilty of any acts of violence, he's certainly guilty of being a fool...

Daman...the Texans did provide message therapy sessions in house training room and players did use that service. I think it was at least once a week and maybe more times per week, the Texans did provide message therapy to their players.

How much Watson used the Texans message services, I can't say. BUT, Watson went beyond the message therapy provided by the Texans and sought his own message therapy sessions, 150 sessions a year was a number Watson's own lawyer provided...

...and Watson kept his private message sessions secret, not telling the Texans he was seeking message therapy sessions beyond the services provided by the team.

I guess he would have used the team services more if they provided what the private session provided.

Nobody is stupid here.

Lot's of people do that and lots of massage "professionals" do that.

And then some people lump everyone into the same category when trying to excuse unforgivable behavior. It seems you think a lot of people are stupid here.

Ashley Solis, LMT

https://www.vagaro.com/ashleysolislmt

Lots do that - presumably - I agree. How many of them have 22 allegations against them of sexual misconduct / abuse?

You seem to be giving Watson a free pass because lots of people do what he may have done - while ignoring the one thing that differentiates Watson from all those other "lots of people". I don't know what happened and if Watson is innocent or not ... what I do know is dismissing it because other people get happy endings is not right.

I really hope you are just trying to be disingenuous with your argument but not actually believing it makes sense.

if you tip a bartender 10 bucks and take her out after work and have sex youre probably safe. If you tip her over $100 (unless your tab is super high) and then go have sex you may find yourself in trouble. Because "intent" is intent. The guy telling Chris Hansen that he just came to talk to the girl and just didn't want to leave the beer and condoms in the car in case they got stolen is not going to escape due to intent. Intent is the actions or knowledge and can rely on circumstantial evidence. Was the tip to the bartender reasonable or excessive, did he tip her the money and immediately have sex in the back room. Did he tip 22 bartenders and then end up with 22 sexual misconduct charges...

So your argument is that Watson sought out over a score of women for just a "massage" and ended up having sex with all of them and then they all filed charges on him but his intent was just for a massage. Which seems quite weird being that he is alleged with things from inappropriate touching to forced oral sex. It sounds like he hired women who thought THEY were just giving massages but he wanted more. That is how intent works though.

By the way, shaming the women is pretty crappy. You want to look like an idiot, that would be the way.

Here is an article discussing exactly what you were addressing......

“Deshaun Watson Has Denied He Acted Intentionally; We Believe Strongly He Did” | Two Plaintiffs Amend Lawsuit Against Browns QB

https://theshadowleague.com/deshaun...ic85DVY6d383NyqclfEOitvgGLHwPDBIG4DbiXAM

If the women wanted to have sex with DeShaun, more power to them. When did I ever say anything about shame on them?

It's when people say that DeShaun has to be "at least creepy" or deviant that I bring up the biased "logic" of gendered morality.

If you pay for a massage, and the woman started performing oral sex without your asking for it, is that solicitation? Why does it have to be DeShaun that initiated it?

Again, I'm not saying that's what happened. But, based on the evidence, it could have happened.

If they filed charges soon after the fact, I'd lean towards DeShaun initiating it. Nothing happening until long periods of time later after a lawyer gets a large group together, and I just don't know.

I just don't like it when people make assumptions without all the information. Even less when they support their arguments with nothing but surface statistics. I also think the "she's reputable, she has good reviews on the site she runs" argument (or a lousy aggregating site that pulls from her site) is similarly weak.

Ah, more questioning the moral standards of all 22 women with the plausible deniability of saying "I'm not saying that's what happened" and "it could have happened". An asteroid large enough to destroy the earth "could happen". But the probability of that happening are not a position one could take in any rational discussion.

That's why no one said anything about asteroids but you. Nice false equivalence example.

I know you don't like anyone showing you just how far you have reached to cast doubts on 22 women and attempted to use examples of everything from accusing a reputable licensed massage therapist to some back alley character. Or how their attorney must be some kind of scum bag in your depths of trying to vindicate a single man of wealth and fame. I mean if you wish to use an example of some far reacing, illogical, sweeping conclusions, both situations fit that description quite well.

It's not about vindicating Watson. It's about caring about the truth. It's about getting annoyed with people going overboard on poorly supported narratives.

A problem with your last sentence is that no one is making those conclusions.

I've presented hypotheses which can be tested against the evidence. You know, the whole scientific method. One presents a possibility and then sees if it works. Without the data, it's hard to tell. So, I keep trying to find data.

You keep assuming your conclusion is true. Your data is lacking, and you pretend that anything that doesn't support your conclusion doesn't exist.

Far fetched accusations with no viable realistic reasoning has nothing to do with scientific methods. More like some crazy conspiracy theories we see prevalent in our society today. Those two things are not the same.

The concern here for Watson is the fact he took the "5th" during his deposition. That move by him and his attorney, though perfectly legal, has now opened up pandoras box. Since two of the plaintiffs have added a claim for negligence allowing a jury to assess liability for unreasonable and imprudent conduct as well - with more coming - these claims are just another means which the jury can assess liability and damages against him. Claims of negligence and gross negligence are important because they allow for the scope of discovery to widen. A wider scope of discovery means more possible evidence to support the lawsuits can be gathered before trial, increasing damages if awarded in the plaintiff's favor.

The new negligence claims have already paid dividends in a pretrial motion this week. The attorney's plaintiffs wanted Watson to be compelled to list all women who gave him massages since 2019, other than those already documented.

Judge Rabeea Sultan Collier ruled in favor of the plaintiffs, compelling Watson to provide a history of women who gave him massages. Judge Collier also ruled in the plaintiffs’ favor stating Watson must answer questions regarding sexual activities with 18 additional therapists who came to his defense about his massage habits last year.

The attorneys for the plaintiffs are undoubtedly looking to establish a pattern of behavior with Watson and paint a picture of a man who seeks out massages from women with the intended purpose of engaging in sexual acts.

IMHO, the 22 civil claims is just the beginning because we're going to see women dragged into this thing that never had any intention of being involved. If the attorneys can establish a pattern of behavior, I suspect more women will file claims against Watson. Where they probably thought they'd just never let Watson be a client again, they are going to be identified and most likely questioned. The ugly of this situation for Watson and the Browns has just stepped up to a different level. I will be interesting to see when the fan base turns on Watson - is it with 22, or 30, or 50 civil suits? As stated in the article, one instance could possibly be misinterpreted, though unlikely. But 22? What if it's 30 or 50? That’s way too many. The legal gymnastics Watson’s attorneys will attempt during this lawsuit will be interesting.

Watson will be playing for the Browns - not totally sure when but I suspect it'll happen. My question now and has been since the beginning - AT WHAT COST?

NFL executive cites issue with Deshaun Watson contract, calls it 'desperation' move
Dan Benton, Larry Brown Sports - 7h ago

© Ken Blaze-USA TODAY Sports

The Cleveland Browns wanted quarterback Deshaun Watson, so they went out and acquired him from the Houston Texans despite 22 active civil lawsuits against him. In the process, they signed Watson to a $230 million fully guaranteed contract extension.

That’s a lot of dough and that equates to a lot of power.

Several NFL executives recently told Mike Sando of The Athletic that it may be too much power and something that could come back to bite the organization later on down the line.

“People talk about the contract precedent and what that does to the NFL, but that leaves out the simple reality that this guy (Watson) doesn’t need to listen to anybody,” an exec said. “If he wants Kevin Stefanski fired, doesn’t like the offense, whatever it is, Cleveland is stuck.”

“Giving him a fully guaranteed contract, they basically said it doesn’t matter,” another exec said. “If you are Stefanski, you are an NBA coach now.”

The lack of foresight on the Watson deal was spurred on by what many view as the impulsivity of Browns owner Jimmy Haslam.

You can't keep consistent logic for 3 consecutive sentences. One would think that "far fetched accusations" and "crazy conspiracy theories" would be the same thing.

Clearly, your logic is not to be trusted. Fortunately for Watson, your idea of what is viable and realistic, or crazy, has no bearing.

Sounds like sour grapes to me.

Probably is, but it doesn't make the reality of it any less true. We are more married to Watson as a result of that contract than absolutely anything or anyone else. Heck, that includes Haslam. Someone could come in and buy him out, but come Hell or High Water, Watson isn't going anywhere.... even if he would decide to just sit.

Just the kind of response I expected - I suppose what's happening to Watson is Baker's fault too.

...Well, Baker's dad and Tony Buzbee are both University of Houston alumni....

And as I said that you seem to gloss over to show intent, none of that has anything to do with scientific methods.

There's nothing scientific about throwing out accusations that all 22 women must be lying.

There's nothing scientific about trying to act like a very successful attorney that has never been before the bar on any type of disciplinary action is suddenly "rounding up" a bunch of liars and not vetting them. That's tilting at windmills. You are the prime example of why women are afraid to come forward when being victimized this way. Because when they do that, people like you question their character, their honesty and the experience they were forced to endure. Well done.

And yet you posted it anyway ... Baker? Wherefore did I mention Baker?

Imagine NFL executives from other franchises being concerned with the Browns risking their future success. 🤥🙄

I didn't throw out accusations. I never said they were all lying. I presented the hypothesis that they could be lying. Then I went looking for evidence. I'm not being picky and only looking for things that will support my hypothesis and pretending everything against it doesn't exist, like you.

Apparently you think women should be afraid that people might want the truth. I'd think people should want other people to want the truth to matter. If no one can question anything, you might as well tell every potential gold digger (or lawyer looking for a payday) to have at it.

If a woman is assaulted, she should report it when the evidence is fresh. We should normalize that. Questioning isn't/shouldn't be about shaming. It should be about getting to the truth.

You don't seem interested in that. You've already concluded that Watson is guilty, so you're only looking for evidence to support that. You're paradigm bound.

You are the Don Quixote you keep alluding to. The accusers are your Dulcinea. They're women you don't really know that you've imagined into defenseless people that require your personal protection. You're the one that keeps tilting at the same sensationalized monster, based on bad arguments, while ignoring some facets of reality.

Looking for the truth isn't coming up with some far fetched theories which create a situation that makes the victims look like the predators. You aren't actually looking for the truth. You're trying to portray a picture that makes the victims the bad guys. You're using plausible deniability to dance around the the actuality of what you are doing.

It does seem very disingenuous for a man as smart as yourself to keep pretending that you don't understand why women don't report sexual crimes committed against them right away and many cases not at all. For anyone trying to use that as some sort of faux defense of Watson, not saying you are, try to educate yourself on why that is. And in part it's because of the very type of accusations you have been posting.

Why Women Don't Immediately Report Sexual Assault

Why didn’t she say something sooner?


Key points

Victims of sexual harassment and assault often delay reporting, with only one in five women reporting sexual abuse.
Sexual harassers are often in a position of power.
Victim blaming is holding victims and survivors responsible for the sexual harassment, sexual assault, or rape committed against them.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/...n-dont-immediately-report-sexual-assault

Reporting these things will never be "normalized" when you have women undergoing trauma being accused of predicating the very act committed against them.

Your definition of far fetched must be different than mine, and it's obvious that you're excluding copious amounts of information with the certainty you exhibit in your conclusion. You keep insisting that the women are the victims. They could be. But, they also might not be. I'm not saying they are the bad guys. I'm saying that I don't know if there are any "good guys" in this situation.

I understand why victims don't always report crimes. Most of those victims don't brag about working on their abuser or try to schedule more appointments with them. Most don't threaten blackmail or extortion. Those claims are in writing in the case files.

I'm not victim blaming and saying it was their fault. I'm saying I don't know that assault actually happened. It may have. It may not have. Watson's lawyer is pretty good, too, and he's raised points that bring doubt into the equation.

You keep bringing up Buzbee's award. Here are Hardin's:

link

If "reporting these things" was "normalized," not "being accused of predicating the very act committed against them" would be part of "normalization." Reporting is a key step in dealing with trauma. If they're reported right away, there is more evidence that can be gathered. If they're reported right away, there wouldn't be 20-some additional alleged victims.

Just because something has been done a certain way, doesn't mean that society shouldn't try to do better.

Quoted for truth.

Wow, I expected by now this would be settled, and minds would have been changed.

This is probably something that some of you don’t want to discuss or even think about but in a worst case scenario it’s more then possible that Watson will not being able to play with the Browns in both 2022 and 2023.

The civil law suits are scheduled to be held in Mars 2023. If things go south these law suits can easily continue another year. As it stands the probability that he lose one or even several cases is more then likely. I wouldn’t bet against it with the information we have right now.

I say this again. Let these law suits go to court is the absolute worst thing he can do. The only winner in such scenario is his lawyer, everybody else has almost nothing to gain to continue.

The women will get their compensations without being publicly exposed regarding personal life a s o. That’s a win win.

Mr Happy Ending will save two years of his life’s well being by not being anxious and living in uncertainty. He can continue with his NFL career and the price for all this is maybe a few moths of his salary. That’s a slam dunk win if you ever see one.

The Cleveland Browns will have their QB ready to play form day one 2022. Win win win win win win.

The Browns supporters will see one of the best QBs in the league taking a historical underachieving organization probably to new heights. For some of you maybe pride and being right/or wrong is a better option?

The NFL don’t have to deal with sensitive questions and make a decision that will be heavily criticized whatever direction it takes.

The media will after a while drop this subject and sooner or later move on to discuss sports related topics.


It’s a win and win situation all over the place for everyone involved except his lawyer. OK, he will never be fully free from suspicions but what he has done will follow him anyway no matter what he does. If he goes to court he can easily destroy his reputation for a long long time even if he’s guilty or not. Nobody is 100% safe when a case goes to court. That’s the risk you take going to a court house proving your guilt/innocence.

So my fellow Browns supporters.

Some of you don’t agree but if it was you in this situation maybe it’s possible that some of you would think differently? Take your pick. Fight until the end and let your personal life be publicly exposed, discussed in media and maybe in the end convicted both by the court and the public opinion or ……..maybe maybe be smart and move on and accept short term public criticism and some collateral economical damage. For me the decision is easy.

As a fan of this team, I actually hope it goes to court and is as public as possible... as that's the route that gets me as much info as possible. I know that's dumb and insensitive to all that are actually involved with the case, but I want to know what I'm cheering for.

There is zero percent chance this happens. Goodell has already stated that Watson will not be put on the Commissioner's Exempt List.

Additionally, the NFL has never suspended a player based on civil suits. See Ben Roethlisberger settling his civil suit in 2012 stemming from the alleged rape in 2008 at a Lake Tahoe hotel as precedent. He was not suspended after settling the lawsuit.

I do not expect the NFL to wait until all the civil suits are either settled or thrown out. This could be years and years from now. I suspect Watson will be suspended 4-6 games and it will be announced over the summer or before training camp.

I don't see how you can suspend him with no criminal conviction or even charges, and a no resolution to any of the civil cases. The NFLPA would have a field day with that. It would be different if he was already found liable in a couple of them or he settled some. The only way i could see this happening is if they said we are suspending you 6 games period regardless of the outcome of the civil cases with no possible additional suspension related to this case. If that happens, I think he takes the 6 games then immediately starts settling

I think you need to look up the definition of copious. Your statement falls far short of the definition. One of your own points is based on what one woman reports another woman said. It seems you consider that evidence when a single woman makes an accusation about another woman but not so much when 22 women make similar accusations about one man. but not what the 22 accusers are saying. Then you try to twist an offer of an out of court settlement offer as some type of blackmail. Out of court settlements are offered in most cases, often from both sides all the time. That's not blackmail. So let's not pretend the word copious applies here.

And when it comes to the attorneys involved, once again you are either ignoring the point or purposefully avoiding the point. I'm guessing it's the latter of the two. You see, I have not brought Hardin's character or motives into question here. It's you who have brought Buzbee's up. Your claim is Buzbee takes on high profile cases is so seek fame, attention and money to himself. First let me explain something to you, Hardin is expensive. He isn't someone representing the poor here. So money is a motivator for both of them. And it's disingenuous to claim Buzbee is doing it for fame and attention while ignoring that Hardin has a huge list of famous clients which would garner the exact same results. The list includes Roger Clemens, Adrian Peterson, Joel Osteen, Rudy Tomjanovich, Warren Moon, Wade Boggs, Scottie Pippen, Dow Jones and Exxon Mobil. Hardin actually makes a point at the very beginning of his own web site about the high profile cases he has handled.

Giving one a free pass while attacking the other one for doing the exact same thing is what I've been pointing out. And it's true. Both being highly successful attorney's they have the luxury of selecting their clients and both choose high profile cases. Either the point you've been trying to make works the same for both attorney's or it applies to neither attorney. Make up your mind.

j/c

Looks like this thing may drag out for years......

None of the 22 lawsuits against Deshaun Watson will go to trial during the 2022 NFL season

The bad news is that, barring one or more settlements, the 22 civil lawsuits pending against Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson will continue to linger throughout the 2022 calendar year. The good news is that none of the cases will go to trial during the 2022 NFL season.

Via Adam Ferrise of the Cleveland Plain Dealer, the lawyers handling the cases have agreed that no trials will be scheduled between August 1, 2022 and March 1, 2023.

Tony Buzbee, who represents the 22 plaintiffs, told the Plain Dealer that he hopes to get a trial set for July. If that isn’t feasible, he hopes to have all 22 cases ready to go in March 2023.

Lingering over the entire controversy is the question of whether the case proceeds with one trial involving all claims or 22 different trials. We’ve previously gotten the sense from talking to persons with knowledge of the litigation that the cases would be tried one at a time. For 22 trials, that could take most if not all of the 2023 offseason, with one case after another after another after another.

At some point, Watson needs to focus on settling specific cases. A deal could have been had for 18 of the claims last October, with four holdouts. Watson didn’t want to settle some but not all of the claims. Whether he should have felt differently at the time, he should reconsider that position now, settling every case he can in order to whittle the litigation down to as few cases as possible.

It’s not good for Watson, the Browns, the NFL, or Cleveland fans to have this situation linger. The sooner it’s resolved, the better. It’s looking like, barring settlements, the controversy will still be lingering a year from now.

The best approach would be to find a retired judge with the skills, the savvy, and the gravitas to get all parties in a room, and to start clunking the attorneys’ heads together until all of the cases are resolved to the satisfaction of the 22 plaintiffs and Watson.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...-go-to-trial-during-the-2022-nfl-season/

If the part in bold actually plays out this way, it's not good news for watson. Convincing a jury you aren't guilty when you have 22 accusers all testifying at the same time would be overwhelming to a jury. His best option would be to have 22 separate trials and somehow keeping it to a single victim testifying at each trial. The chances of convincing a jury in a one on one scenario would be much easier to do if you can undermine the victims characters enough. Although actually accomplishing that 22 times isn't something rational people believe will happen.

NFL Personal Conduct policy allows for it, and the NFLPA will go along with it. It doesn't really require anything more than the Commissioner's decree. Even if the NFLPA protested it, which would be an utterly stupid P.R. move on their part, they can only lodge a complaint/protest, it still comes down the Commish.

There is enough smoke to assume a reasonable chance of a fire here, and that's all that is needed. Had he been conducting himself better, he would not have been doing things that potentially reflect poorly on himself, the NFL, and the NFLPA. I fully expect Goodell to take a stance such as "6 games minimum, further suspensions possible based on any future information that comes out"... and, simultaneously, I expect the league and NFLPA to actively work to repair public opinion and his image while hoping this all fades away quickly, because, let's be honest, the NFL and the NFLPA don't give one little damn about what he did or didn't do. They ONLY care about how it impacts public perception, and thus revenues. It's like Michael Vick where the NFL waged a very active campaign to boost his image when his prison release date was approaching because there were already plans in the works to get him back on the field because he was a marketing dream. Watson is in much the same boat. He represents money, so the league will do whatever they need to give the appearance that "we care about #metoo and the voices of women", then they will get him back on the field selling tickets, concessions, and jerseys.

1. You conveniently left the statement you are referring to out of your post. Most likely because the statement I made isn't actually what you're claiming I made. Go figure.
You are ignoring everything that doesn't agree with your version of events. That's a lot, that's many things. That's a copious amount. I didn't give specific examples in the post you are responding to because I've given them in the dozens of other posts on the topic and have linked articles that give dozens more.

That's also not the extortion and blackmail I'm talking about. I'm talking about the recording that you keep claiming isn't relevant because you don't know what's on it. I'll reserve judgment but I will consider the possibility that it could have what is claimed on it. Again, successful lawyers, that have been around for decades, generally don't last by claiming to have evidence that they don't.

2. While defense attorneys can make good money, it's not the same as attorneys that go after class action lawsuits that can net them upwards of 10s of millions of dollars and their clients only get maybe 10s of thousands each. Hardin is what he is. Buzbee wants to be something else. I can't help it if you can't see the difference.

Your double standard between the two attorney's speak for itself. And yes, attorney's try to convince juries all the time that what they call a piece of evidence isn't even close to the claims they make it out to be. Casting doubt in any way they can towards the opposing side is exactly what their job is.

So it's your contention that accusations from watson's lawyers is a "copious amount" of evidence?


I think not.

One more important point about your attorney comparison. It's pretty well established that both of the attorney's involved here can pick and choose their clients. Both are highly successful in their profession. But here is one distinct difference you see to have chosen to ignore. Buzbee only gets paid IF he wins. The decision as to which clients he chooses to represent are directly tied to him winning his cases. It's in his best interest to only select to represent clients that he has vetted and who have strong cases. It makes no sense for him to take on highly questionable lawsuits because he would lose hundreds of thousands of dollars paying his staff and tying up his time on time consuming cases without a high degree of certainty he stands a very good chance of winning.

By contrast, watson's attorney gets paid regardless of the outcome. So it's true that Buzbee has more to gain IF he wins. It's also true that he gets nothing if he loses. Hardin takes the safe bet. It's a heads I win tails you lose proposition for him.

I agree its about public image, but on the same vein, NFL rarely suspends on civil, i think there's been two, Elliot (who had quite a bit of evidence against him, including a video) and Ben. Ben was suspended for 4 games for alleged rape. So what precedence is there here. Plus with all the racial minefields that come with them suspending a young black man that has been cleared of any criminal charges.. I don't think this is going to break the way some on this board do. I agree the NFL will probably have a plan to rehab his ability to sell merchandise and tickets for them. To me it just seems hard to do anything right now, with both sides agreeing to wait until after the year, (which surprised me). The narrative all season will be this mess. I think both attorneys would have a case to have this expedited rather than pushed back. I'm sure Watson and co are ready to get on with it regardless, and i think as the attorney representing the alleged victims, they would be wanting to use the public perception and fresh in mind opportunities right now. Pushing this back a year is a lifetime in a 24 hour news cycle

Both of you ignore all the media storm that comes with these 22 allegations. Whenever Watson set his foot on a football field you can be sure that the discussion will be a lot more then just TD and yards per throw.

The Cleveland Browns biggest fear should be if these women’s attorney and the national media creates so much drama that it make it impossible to let him play. Forget about MKC and all the local media midgets, they’re biased and nobody cares about their opinion enough to make them relevant. It just take one of the major sponsors or partners, to the team or NFL, to cast doubts about the situation and the Browns FO will be in a helpless spot where maybe the decision if he’s going to play or not is suddenly outside their control. Big sponsors is very sensitive when it comes to sexual allegations and if a large amount of women starts to make enough noises and complains then you can be sure there will be some sort of consequences.

Just for the record as a Brown supporter. I want Deshaun Watson to play from a sport perspective (but from a moral standpoint I’m extremely ambivalent) in our first game in 2022 or after a suspension but I’m not blind and stupid. The last couple of years have shown us several cases when large multinational companies and media has way more power to decide what’s right or wrong then the legal system

I don't disagree that there would most likely be a backlash from the BLM movement on a suspension without a conviction. But then I believe if we are to consider that, we must also consider the me too movement. I think that if you believe these social issues will play a part in any NFL decision concerning punishment that the numbers matter. 13.4% of Americans are black. 50.8% of Americans are women.

I know that sounds insensitive but in the grand scheme of things corporations do what tends to serve their own best interests.

As far as agreeing to push the cases down the road that's a two edged sword. It would seem to me that while I understand your points, it also gives watson's attorney a lot more time to investigate the accusers with which they might gather further evidence if any exists. It would also mean that the accusers attorney isn't concerned with watson's attorney finding anything of importance during that time.

Roethlisberger was not suspended for the civil lawsuit stemming from the Lake Tahoe alleged rape in which he settled. He was suspended for the alleged sexual assault/rape at the college bar in Georgia. A civil suit was not filed in that case.

Elliot was suspended for violating the NFL's personal conduct policy on domestic violence. I only recall civil suits against Elliott for a car crash and dog biting. Neither of which he was suspended for.

I cannot find a single example of a player being suspended as a result of civil suits.

Here is the NFL personal conduct policy process:

https://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/NFL_domestic_violence_policy.pdf

There is also a possibility that he will never play a snap for the browns, but it's low probability at best, just like 90% of the 'what ifs' in the world.

1. I judged each individual's potential motives on their own merit. The standard is the same. The actions are different. There you go trying to paint with your broad brush again. All lawyers, all accusers, all people are more complicated than whatever lazy group you try to shoehorn them into.

2. It's a part of the evidence. All the rest has been linked repeatedly and you keep trying to pretend it doesn't exist.

3.You apparently try very hard not to think. In particular, you like to pretend that things you don't agree with don't exist or are irrelevant.

I've repeatedly explained how Buzbee could win even if he loses the case. He has plenty of money. He wants political capital. He could get more of both regardless of what actually happened.

We are kind of at the mercy of the players, but it's been reported that the first civil case could be heard in July. It's also been reported that each of the 22 civil cases will be heard separately. As I already stated, with the judge's ruling that a list must be provided of every encounter since 2019, I'm betting that the current 22 civil cases is just the beginning. If that total number of encounters is truly 150, how does the NFL, Browns and the fan base handle let's say 50 - 75 civil suits? Once these ladies are exposed, what might have been a desire to just stay out of it suddenly has changed. This will be especially true since the new ladies will be classified as being in one group or the other. That in itself will increase the civil suits just to protect their name and business. This is going to get a whole lot uglier and the press will have a field day with the Browns and Watson.

Would you be 100% focused on football with 22 civil law suits hovering around your head?

Is any player ever focused 100% on football? Compartmentalization is something every player has to deal with.

Short answer. YES.
That’s why most successful organization priorities harmony and their players well being. You know the opposite of how the Browns normally operates…

I will only talk from my own experience but I would have serious problems with sleeping, eating, socializing, going out in public places, not to mention being one of the most recognized and talked about sports personality in the country. It would totally kill my motivation and my focus on anything else then getting rid of these allegations. But that’s me, almost 60 years old without any previous serious allegations against me and my family.

When we see more of these 22 women’s side of the story, maybe more female accusers coming forward, probably more interviews with lawyers with polarizing views and not to mention more of women’s perspective where they share similar experience like these 22 women then the public opinion will probably change to the worse.

I can’t honestly see how more exposure and media coverage will favor a man being accused of sexual misbehavior. Is that what we want surrounding our new QB and what we want the Browns to be associated with?

You and Mr Happy have my full admiration if you deal with this as a walk in the park that doesn’t affect your performances the slightest.

I don't think the part in bold says what you think it says. It wouldn't have 22 accusers testifying at the same time. I agree that separate trials would benefit Watson. You lose the 22 against 1 advantage and can focus on divide and conquer.

NOPE. I'd be like him though, fighting that ish to prove my innocence.

I think that the cases get settled out of court. And I agree, it will be a 6 or so game suspension.. same as Big Ben got.

There is also the chance that if the first couple cases go his way, the others may decide it isn't worth continuing. If he loses one though, he could have big trouble with the rest. The first case will be key in the process

It's the NFL... precedent isn't required for anything. The only thing that matters is whether or not the Commish and the owners feel the public needs some form of placating to show "they care". So, for that, I think there will be a suspension.
For the lawyers pushing to next year, well, he stands to earn a LOT more next year than this year, so if any awards or settlements do come out of it and happen to be based on current earnings, next year works better for them.

I don't think the league wants to suspend. I think they're perfectly happy letting him roll from Day 1, but I think they will feel the need to make a show of concern for his conduct. Let's face it, the league and the owners are all a bunch of slimeballs; they aren't doing ANYTHING unless there is a perceived need to address public perception, and they won't see or care about that unless it starts to show up at the cash register. They peddle guys like Watson and Vick and the public goes "wow, look how fast he is, what a GREAT GUY" and everyone goes on with life. They know that this one, like Vick, is a matter of playing the long game, though.... they'll slog through whatever they need to in 2022 with him and reap the payoff in 2023 when it has all gone away.

You know what I haven't heard or read anywhere as of yet? I haven't heard or read about a single therapist to date that has made a statement that their interaction with Watson was just a normal massage. We have 22 civil complaints saying they were Watson victims and we have 18 that say they pleasured him as expected. That's about 55% victimhood with somewhere around 110 more names to be exposed. At this rate, Watson could be looking at 80 plus civil suits if the trend holds. IMHO, once their names are exposed, the press vultures and lawyers will drag them into this case and it's going to blow up around Watson and the Browns. I also suspect that there will be more lawyers involved because a lot of the new victims will seek out different council. IMHO, the ugly is coming.........

You have every right and my full admiration that you want to clear your reputation no matter what, but with that being said I think I have a different perspective.

Without being too deep but the simple version is that life is too short to waste on things that don’t gives you joy and harmony. 22 years, 2 months and 9 days ago I had 2 brain hemorrhage’s in a row and nearly lost my life. 8 years of total rehabilitation, 2 years back and forth at a hospital. From one life to another.

In that process I discovered that life is too precious to throw away by doing uncomfortable things that I can avoid.

If Deshaun where my son I would advice him to use some of his money and settle these cases. He’s in the prime time of his life and why jeopardize his future when there is a big chance the odds is stacked against him. Drop pride or whatever we’re fighting to keep. We can never satisfied everyone but we can make sure we tries to live our best life possible. Take away as much pain as possible and stop being anxious.

That’s my advice. Life is worth so much more.

To his point, this is next level stuff. Whether he's being unjustly accused or he reaping what he's sewn, this is life-altering stuff for him right now. Additionally, it's been reported that Watson is one of those guys that is COMITTED. He was on the field a day after a loss working on a throw.

The only problem with settling to end the drama is that it will inevitably bring others out who want to cash in. But I get you on the rest.

Speaking purely strategically, Watson’s biggest liability in all of this is Watson. I don’t know about any of you but he was, how shall we say,.. less than confidence inspiring in his Browns introductory press conference. He said several things that on their face just really strained any and all credibility. I understand there may be some women in that group that are in a feeding frenzy and I know that he wants to defend himself against some probably dubious claims amongst others that may well not be dubious but as others have pointed out, the sheer volume of the claims and his, frankly speaking, very poor ability to advocate on his own behalf in a convincing and credible fashion makes the specter of drawn out trial(s) a nightmare for everyone excluding the press and the lawyers.

I understand that settling creates an impression of guilt but time is his and the Browns’ true enemy here. The faster he gets it behind him and everyone can change the narrative a little bit the better, period. I really can’t conceive a scenario where he comes out of this smelling ok. Even if every case goes to trial and he wins them all most educated people know that these sorts of cases are stacked against the accuser. Even if he loses some or several of them, his defenders will still rationalize. He and the At this point, baring some massive revelation, few are going to change thier minds. They’re just going to get sufficiently distracted and (he and Browns hope) just let it go.

Not speaking strategically but personally, I’m too old for this. I don’t think if the Browns win the SB next year (which it’ll have to be before the cap sacrifices start come en masse) it would mean nearly as much for me. It would have a big asterisk. The Browns, for all their ineptitude and warts, have always been solidly the good guys in my mind. It’s just very hard to come back to the team after this. I’ll always follow them (as evidenced by my still popping off here on occasion) but I don’t think I can don the jersey. I promise you it’s not virtue signaling or holier than thou stuff, it’s just that I’m too old and know too much about how this usually goes and ok, maybe I do feel a need to hold a Higher standard. There really is more than just winning.

Deshaun Watson’s contract contains exception to “typical club protections” in event of suspension

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...club-protections-in-event-of-suspension/

The delay or pause of hearing any of these cases during the season could spell serious issues for Watson. Watson's guarantee provisions only include suspensions taking place in 2022 and 2023. Of the 22 current civil cases, they are spread across 13 different courts. That number could rise significantly once the list of every massage therapist used since 2019 is exposed. That said, it might not be considered a stretch to think that there still could be criminal charges filed either from the original 22 or any additional discovery or criminal complaints. Another item to consider is some of the other items happening in the NFL currently. The recent league meetings that focused on the NFL having huge issues regarding women working for the teams and being harassed has forced teams to accept new hiring requirements. These rules were created to address the overall treatment of women and the hiring practices. While these new rules are more focused toward the team operation, the overall treatment of women is all inclusive, and Watson has alleged to have treated at least 22 women at this point so bad, they have sued him. Will the NFL make Watson an example of the "new NFL guidelines?"

Watson could be looking at a much longer suspension than many are anticipating.

Thanks. You touched on and covered the introductory press conference more simply Than I could have.... And I was thinking of that this week but didn't know if it was worth raising on this thread . After all, 22 allegations don't prove guilt.... Neither does a weak press conference where DW came across as anything but wholly innocent of any shenanigans. But the idea of seeing more excuses and contrived contrarian explanations sort of had me reluctant to talk about it. I forget what DW responded with when asked about why so many different massage therapists, but the answer was pretty woeful and a deflection. Maybe those that choose to wholly exonerate DW based on a lack of evidence don't care... To me it is one more small pebble tilting the scales in the wrong direction and makes me feel uncomfortable. Once more, on phone. Sorry for typos.

j/c:

This is pretty interesting. I wonder if the NFL would wait until 2023 to make any decision as well, thus, getting to Watson's base salary which is exponentially more in 2023 than 2022.

Again what scares me as a Browns fan is not the deal. We gave up a lot... 3 years of 1st round picks.

But if we get a Franchise QB that turns out to be one of the all time greats fine with me. Its the sexual abuses that bothers me. I believe everything I read but as I understand not yet put into evidence is over 20 people who consensually had sex with him falling for his come on. It is said by attorney repping these women with law suits that this is a big turn against DW as it shows he was a predator...sometimes it worked and sometimes he got a flat out NO...just cause he obliged with no means no and did nothing further.
The fact remains he physically put his junk in their hands for them to say no. It wasnt as if he asked and they said no. He had a game to it as if he was picking these women up. Like a friend of mine would ask anyone and everyone he met for a date...most said no but once in a while he got a yes...that is not the same as what DW did...if only he just asked and they said no. He went a step forward and showed the hard on he had and just took it a step forward...if I had a daughter I would be in jail for what I would do to him. So maybe he has to go to jail... then my Browns are in a big mess. Even if everything goes well and he plays..I'm told you still root for the Browns just not him. How in football do you root for a team but not their QB its almost impossible.

Vers has been doing it for four years.

That was his personal problem if he did so. It is not the same cause we aren't talking about a kid 21 years old who celebrated their 21st birthday drinking and ran from cops as a drunk kid would. Not the same as what DW did. So if he hated Baker for that...I doubt it if anything he hated Baker for planting the flag after beating his Ohio State team.

Doubtful. The NFL will issue their decision once they conclude their criminal investigation which I expect will be before the season starts and issue any suspension at this time. My guess is 4-6 games.

The NFL doesn't really care about civil suits as they have never suspended a player based on a civil suit.

Also, while these civil suits will not start until after the season they could take two, three, four, five years to resolve. For example, Roehtlisberger's civil suit stemming from the 2008 Lake Tahoe alleged rape did not settle until 2012. Four years later....and that was one case. These are expected to be 22 separate cases....it could be years and years before all cases are ever resolved.

Just throwing this out there...

97% of Civil cases are Settled. 97%!!!!! So out of the "roughly" 288K civil cases every year...less than 9K ever make it to the end of the trial.

That does not sound like the deck is stacked against the Accusers. In a criminal trial, yes the deck can be/is stacked against them. But not a civil case. And that doesn't sound like much risk on the side of Buzbee about getting paid "only if he wins"....Because a settlement is a "win". That is the sad state of our legal system that is supposed to be fair in both instances.

They are going to get something. In some cases that may be just and or warranted. And in some cases it won't....Either way, Buzbee is going to get a whole lot more...NOT including any political gain from the publicity which is more important and valuable to Buzbee than the money. So lets stop with the altruism being thrown at Buzbee.

Regardless of the outcome of these trials...be it settlement, in favor of the plaintiffs, or in favor of the defendant...The stigma and social ostracization will follow Watson for the rest of his life...Even if he fights this to the end and wins every case...Buzbee knows this, counts on it, and preys upon it.

j/c,

I really loathe self-righteous people, who proclaim their moral superiority in their premature judgement of others.

I feel very conflicted by recent events with the Browns. Like you, I'll still watch, but I doubt I'll care very much about the outcome. I even realize there's a "flaw" in my approach to my fandom. Its probably naive as hell, but I kind of need to like a player to root for them. Maybe it was willful ignorance up until now, but I can't get past this guy's alleged behavior. If people want to call that virtue signaling, or me being on my high horse, I don't care. Where is it written that we check our ethics at the door to be a Browns' fan?

Then you came to the right thread!

I disagree. If he plays as well as he has, he'll get the Ray Lewis/Big Ben treatment (plus he'll be given the pedestal the QB that brought Cleveland out of the basement).

100%. As soon as winning starts, for the majority, all is forgotten/forgiven regardless of whether that is right or wrong. Winning in the NFL cures all.

It's a much better option to conclude that 22 women are all lying and must be scum. You have 22 he said/she said cases. People claiming "they're waiting to see the evidence" already have the evidence. There is no physical evidence. There are the word of 22 women against the word of watson. It seems you equate moral superiority as expecting a man not be a sexual predator. Of rubbing your penis on women. That's expecting someone to be a decent human being. It doesn't take moral superiority to expect that.

The "lazy group" would be attorneys who don't try to portray those suing their client in a bad light. And no, that isn't complicated at all. It's not my fault you have no idea how any of this works. Claiming Buzbee doesn't care if he wins or loses makes no sense unless you script a very far fetched scenario that makes no sense. Which you managed to do. Yet refuse to address that the other attorney is an 80 year old man who gets paid no matter the outcome and has built his fame on famous clients that garnered him attention and headlines exactly like Buzbee has done.


Reporting the exact same accusation over and over again doesn't give it any more credibility than when it was said the first time. Taking the word of what one woman said over the word of another is you doing the exact same thing you are accusing me of. Only with me it's 22 women. And as far as the context of some tape, of course an attorney will try to twist that into the most damning piece of evidence he can. The only thing being reported is what Hardin claims in the context of that tape. Nothing more.


Coming from you that's hilarious.

jc..


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Sadly for you and those like you the owner and people who run this board do not share your view as it pertains to this topic. But then we do have self righteous people that think they should have control and the say so to dictate how this board is ran.

For the masses - certainly. Same as in every other walk of life, people rarely can focus on an issue and get distracted by noise and the shiny object.

Every time I read a post of yours I think of the movie 12 Angry Men.

It seems those who read my posts get far angrier than I do. Upholding one man over the word of 22 women only shows me that our society is stuck in the past where this has always been the case and the word of women are marginalized, rejected and they undergo character assassinations as a result. Many posts on this board point out the prime example of why more sexually abused women fear coming forward. My reaction to that is sadness, not anger.

Your posts reminding me of that movie is not because I think you're angry.

Yet, here we are still discussing Ben and Ray Lewis in that context.....Even when they retired, their cases were brought up concerning their legacies. Just saying.

Let's suppose that Deshaun Watson is perfectly innocent (I know that is an impossibility for some of you...this is all hypothetical). That some of the girls were trying to trap him...some of the girls were hoping to get a relationship with him...and some of the girls just had a misunderstanding because they were not Sports therapists akin to working on the groin muscles. In this situation...he is completely innocent of harassments, etc. Yet, when he retires...no matter how many Super Bowls he wins....they will always bring this up as a detriment to his legacy (especially since he will likely have to settle). Just a hypothetical...In this hypothetical situation, he has done nothing wrong and is forever marred...Many will say he is rich and was able to buy his way out or manipulated the justice system...That this is just another example for women to not come forward when sexually assaulted...In their eyes he is a sexual predator. In that hypothetical situation...does he deserve that? Is that fair? That an accusation can have that much power?

And we have a lawyer making far more money than any of his clients received and has another feather in his cap for his next political Office campaign...

On the opposite side...suppose he is completely guilty...and he settles...Many will say that he just settled to get the situation over and done with, or that it was cheaper to settle than to fight...There will be people that won't accept the possibility of guilt. That doesn't seem fair to me either...

And we still have a lawyer making far more money than any of his clients received and has another feather in his cap for his next political Office campaign...

The truth, is usually somewhere in the middle...which is why I am not making any absolutes without more info.

The one fact that cannot be denied. The ONLY winner that will come from this entire situation "regardless of result".....is Buzbee.

Let me help you out Pit....You are not Henry Fonda in this movie.

I'm glad the other attorney doesn't make millions defending his famous client list. Win or lose.

The other attorney (Hardin) didn't instigate this situation, he was brought in after the fact. Yes, he will get paid. Are you suggesting he shouldn't? And are you suggesting that Hardin has nothing to lose? If so, you certainly haven't thought anything out.

If Hardin wins...outside of his fees...which he did not solicit for...what will he have gained? He would be the guy who got a sexual predator off the hook on your eyes and many others...

If he loses...outside of his fees...which he did not solicit for...what will he have gained? I am sure high profile clients are looking for lawyers who lose cases....

No....Buzbee is the only person with absolutely nothing to lose and everything to gain in this situation...Not his clients...not Watson...Not Hardin....Only Buzbee...Think about that.

So it's in his favor from any aspect to lose? Even from a political standpoint which seems to be your only assertion, and even that is an assertion at best, it makes no difference if he loses? That doesn't make any sense. And what political office is he currently running for again? Or is this only a guess into the future?

Hardin has handled the cases of many celebrity athletes as well as famous lawsuits that do not involve such athletes. Are you saying that defending Adrien Peterson was some strong case for him to take? He's 80 years old. Exactly how much longer do you think he has to practice law? So at this point in his life, exactly what does he have to lose again? Nobody drug Hardin into this case. He is a successful attorney who can pick and choose his clients. He chose to be "brought in". And yes, accepting the case does mean he chose to get himself involved in the situation.

Your premise seems to be based in the fact that one attorney who will be paid no matter what, and quite handsomely I might add, has nothing to gain. And the one who has to win in order to get paid has some sort of advantage here. No if Buzbee loses there will be people such as yourself using that as an even further attack on an attorney who has never been brought up before the bar in his entire career of any wrongdoing.

Yes, there's nothing to be gained by Hardin who will get paid a huge sum of money no matter the outcome of the lawsuits. Just read that last sentence and then continue to say I'm the one who hasn't thought anything out.

Everyone facing a criminal charges or a civil lawsuit deserves a defense. Their attorney's also deserve to be paid for their services. That also applies to those who are victims that deserve to have legal representation whose attorneys also deserve to be paid. It seems you think one attorney has a sinister motive and the other is some shining beacon of the legal system. Even though he is the only attorney who gets paid win or lose.

You calling anybody self-righteous is comedy gold.

Maybe you should have followed the conversation before replying.

jc...

I'm not sure if others are aware of the fact that not all of the women who have been victimized by Deshaun Watson joined a lawsuit seeking to recover damages. Below is a March 29, 2021 story written by Sports Illustrated's Jenny Vrentas, describing a Houston masseus' description of her Fall 2019 encounter with Watson.

A Massage Therapist on Her Session With Deshaun Watson

Mary says she was subjected to inappropriate behavior from Watson in 2019—and found out she wasn’t the only one. She isn’t among the Tony Buzbee clients filing suit, but she wants her story told.

JENNY VRENTAS
MAR 29, 2021

LINK

We're just a couple shmucks on a message board. Ray Lewis has a statue outside the stadium.

I would guess this article has been posted on this site 79 times in the past several weeks.

I followed it just fine. My comment is applicable to you in general, though.

Pit....what part of 97% of civil cases are settled do you not understand? You have been so high on the numbers (22) But when it doesn't fit your narrative you ignore it. Buzbee is getting paid. And even if by some outlandish chance he loses.....he still gets to take the high road stating that he fought for women's rights against a corrupt law process(regardless of any truth to the statement)...And that is more important and more powerful to him than the money.

You talk about my premise...what about yours?? You seem to think Buzbee is some white knight coming to the rescue of fair damsels in distress....The guy has been an ambulance chaser his entire career and cashed in on being part of a slam dunk case against BP. How much did he make off of that compared to everyone else???( hint: it was 100's of MILLIONS) Just because he hasn't been brought up before the bar does not mean he isn't a scumbag. It doesn't mean he is on the up and up. It just means he hasn't been brought up before the bar....That is not a measure of a persons character.

There are much stronger motivations for Buzbee to take on this case than "doing what's right and providing representation for a victim". That is reality...that is sad....but it is reality....I will say it one more time...97% of cases settle(nothing saying about who actually wins the other 3%)...That is the business that Buzbee is in...where 97% of the time...all he has to do is make an accusation and he gets paid(in case you didn't know corporate and personal injury lawyers make FAR MORE on average than defense lawyers...not that Hardin isn't going to be paid well...). It does not matter if the person he accuses is guilty or not...accusation...Buzbee is paid. The guy has HUGE political aspirations...(In my book, that right there is a reason to be wary of him) There are far more reasons to not trust Buzbee than Hardin(not saying he is a boy scout either). Buzbee is a predator not the protector...he has to be in his profession...Based on his comments, his actions, the way he deals with people (read up...there is plenty out there)...He is a scumbag....And that is BEFORE I make any suppositions on his motivations for this case...

Well yeah...you have a point there...

brutal truths

(reposted from Tailgate forum)

Sorry, I haven't read the conversation, just wanted to make a point.

During the owner's meetings it was reported that the league was really angry about the Browns/Watson contract being backloaded to allow him to not suffer financially if he is suspended THIS year. By kicking the can down the road, the league defeats that move. If they suspend him in a future season, it will cost him more than if they had gone with a standard contract.

I hear you.
I too have mentioned the asterisk.
I've been a fan since the Jim Brown/Frank Ryan years, and I never felt conflicted about following the team until now. I can already see myself watching the Browns hoist a Lombardi, while saying, "yeah, but..."

I hate the stink this has brought to 76 Groza. Can't help it. It goes along with my line about Our Team: "They never make it easy for their fans..."


.02

I'm still taking a wait and see approach. But I absolutely think this will end bad for Cleveland, no matter what happens with DW's lawsuits. His innocence would need to be proven for any of his victories to not be tainted, for some fans. The guy didn't play at all last year. I could see a scenario where he is not suspended early in the season, comes in and doesn't shine for whatever reason for about 5 games. Those would be very turbulent weeks for some of us. Especially if the women and their lawyers keep this front and center during the season. Hell, just fan doubts could become a problem for the Browns. So, I don't see how this ends well for us. But they will have plenty of fans and new fans if we start being serious contenders, so how we feel is probably already in the calculus.

This whole thing feels like I'm in fan limbo right now too. I mean I want to like him, but there are too many question marks for that to be possible. This is the kind of slime a Super Bowl can't wash away. Something needs to break before the season to sway me, or this season is going to suck, one way or the other. This is how they make us feel after 50 years of fandom? And I thought they knew something we didn't to be honest, but they've all gone silent, more or less. What are we supposed to do with that? I know I damn sure don't want to be feeling like this OR WORSE on game days.

Both of you are touching on something that probably will be become more visible later down the road.

How many Browns supporters will walking around the city or in the stadium and with pride wearing a Browns replica with Watson’s name on their back after listening and reading about what was going on between these 22 women and Deshaun Watson?

Seeing pictures and videos with witnesses who’re crying. Witnesses who paint a totally different picture then the FO and what the local Browns media tries to feed us with. Sexual uncomfortable details from women at the same age or younger then your daughter, girlfriend or wife.

When that day come it certainly will test a lot of peoples moral integrity.

How will female supporters, fathers and mothers of young women react when the stadium announce his name?
How will it be to walk around outside the stadium and meet vocal women’s organizations with members that also been victims of abuse and violence, seeing banners and being asked to wear protesting stickers?

I can’t predict others reaction but I do know how I would feel.

To hear GM Andrew Berry try to defend his organizations decisions, whatever the outcome of the verdicts, to something positive will probably test a lot of supporters loyalty.

Support the Browns? Yes. 100%.
Cheering with Watson? Probably half hearted or in silence.
Wearing a Watson replica? Future will tell but it will probably not be seen on my back.

There's an older generation of Browns fans that grew up watching, cheering and galvanized themselves as Browns fans during the Jim Brown era and this fandom was passed down by their fathers as well. Jim Brown, brutalized, raped (some were minors) and repeatedly beat women (never found guilty!). To this day, it's excused as a "different time."

Jim Brown has a statue outside the stadium.

In the end, winning cures all...for better or worse.

Good, bad or indifferent....once Watson starts winning, the majority will not care about the civil suits and they'll be afterthought.

milk...The Jim Brown example you are attempting to make is not exactly equal to the Watson situation.

Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't J.Brown's bad boy activity occur 'after' he retired from the NFL?

Always conflict, but players are not angels, we often never hear the truth.

NFL to me is entertainment/business. I surely don't interview and vet every person I interact with. And I surely cannot concern myself with someone that I don't even know, much less is just a small part of a larger organization. The Browns are my team and that team has good and bad people within it. So be it, it's the Team and what it is I root for, not the individual players who come and go every few years.

The facts are out there...this is not a mystery. What he did and how he did it. There are transcripts of the facts. Its not moral superiority its just plain old simple MORALITY. As DW states in his denials - his mom taught him better. Evidently not.deny deny deny and maybe it will go away...a format used very successfully by the Clintons...lol

Comparing previous eras to today with regard to news coverage, news media, social media, instant 'everything' really does not prove or add weight to one side of the argument or the other. If anything it is that we have to do better. That famous athletes got away with anything/everything "back in the day" - means that they should not get away with "anything" today.

Regards the masses accepting and moving on once the Browns (probably) start winning with Watson is a statement you've mentioned before. And I tend to agree with it. But I think if anything that makes it even more important for those that care, those that want to know the truth, to pay attention and be vocal about it. * You wrote those statements as if the cases against DW will no longer matter when most fans chose to move on/forget or stop caring ... A little over a month ago, Russia invaded Ukraine and the entire country cared. An entire country was outraged and moved for the plight of the Ukraines. Now - a bit like Watson when he starts winning - most of the country has moved on. Despite daily war crimes and atrocities in Ukraine, many/most people are losing interest. Their capacity to maintain interest and focus has gone or dwindling. By your repeated rationale - somehow that would mean it doesn't matter that women and children are being targeted in Ukraine or that War atrocities .... I disagree. And if most fans want to conveniently move on from DW issues if he wins, even if there are still civil cases and many individuals swearing under oath that there was wrong doing when they met with DW - then I think many will still be conflicted and still vocal.

That's not true. There are accusations. Accusations are not facts. Some facts are out there (mostly ones selectively released by the prosecuting lawyer), but much is not. The real picture is slowly coming into focus... it's nowhere near as cut-and-dry as you're saying.

No. And they still wheel Jim Brown out to standing ovations and to talk to the team whenever they can.

I've never forgotten the things that Jim Brown, Big Ben and Kobe were accused of.

More specifically, his induction into the Ring of Honor came WELL after all that stuff.

Just saying.

Not everybody supports the Cleveland Brown. National media make money out of controversy. This is a perfect case to rally around and discuss morality and consequences. Different activist organizations has political agendas, they don't care about the NFL. Supporters from other NFL teams will represent a rainbow of opinions about what's right or wrong and they don't care about Watson or the Browns.

You have Twitter and TikTok and the cancel culture. (who I dislike with passion)

This is 2022 and i'm not sure wins cure everything.

In today's climate wrong doings is easier to highlight and create opinion against then ever before.
Remember. Not even the Browns supporters are united in this dilemma, then imagine the rest of the society.

No they are not, you are parroting untruths, and please eo keep the politics out of this discussion.

If he wins. Watson claims he isn't going to settle. You do understand that most people settle before it comes to national attention, right? Now that it's out in the public domain there is less motivation to settle.


You act as if losing 22 cases is good on your resume. I'm not sure you actually hear yourself. And since you mentioned it being a good point for him if he gets back into politics? You do realize he will have an opponent, and will need votes, right? Can you imagine his opponent saying this or using it in a campaign ad?

22 victims of sexual abuse depended on Buzbee for justice. He failed them all. What makes you think he can be successful for you?

Yeah, I'm sure that losing 22 cases to defend these women will convince future clients they should turn to him to represent them in such a lawsuit. I'm sure his failure to win any of these suits will instill confidence in the voters he can accomplish what he claims he will in his campaign. Yeah, that makes sense.


My position is victims deserve a legal representation. The same as defendants do. My claim isn't good attorney verses scum bag attorney. My position is that both attorney's simply have a job to do. I'm not the one here trying to portray one side as seedy or scummy That's your position. You make the claim that Buzbee has been an ambulance chaser all of his life and then claim he can successfully take on one of the biggest corporations with unmatched resources and attorney's to represent them. You just spin it to make that sound scummy.


One thing for sure sitting here on a message board making wild accusations about him isn't a measure of his character. And as for your "hint"? The actual settlement in that BP lawsuit totaled 100 million dollars.

Jury awards $100 mln verdict against BP in Texas case

https://www.reuters.com/article/bp-...t-bp-in-texas-case-idUSN1824817020091219

So no, you are just throwing out random numbers with no basis in fact. The entire settlement was 100 million. So can you explain how Buzbee made "( hint: it was 100's of MILLIONS)"? This should be interesting.....

And let me give you a hint. The winners of that suit split their part of the settlement 10 ways. Anything Buzbee made that's over 10% would mean he received more money than any of the victims. So of course he made more money than any single one of the victims. It doesn't look quite so devious when you use math.


So your suggestion is he must be a scum bag because he gets paid "more"?


So you think when his opponent points out he just lost 22 lawsuits in a row that's a strong selling point for him as a political candidate? Please tell me you're not serious.


That's strictly your opinion which is based on, at least when breaking down the content of this post, BS. It seems as though any attorney that represents victims in lawsuits must all be scum bags to you by your description. I guess that means there are no victims and none of them deserve representation. Because you know, 97% of the time there's a settlement, right?

And after actually learning about Jim Brown's actions against women, I will never view him the same way. You can only deal with the situations you know about. Things like that were not publicized back in the day and we didn't have access to events the way we do now. I certainly make it known to anyone I discuss Jim Brown with about not only Jim Brown the player, but Jim Brown the person. And the way I address it is with brutal honesty. It's not pretty.

I'll be here all week. Be sure and tip your waitress and don't forget to order the veal.

I'm looking on the upside: I've got my autumn Sundays back. No longer do I need to block out half of an entire day once a week. I can follow them casually and not care about making sure I never miss a game. If they make it to the playoffs or the Super Bowl, I can say "Good for them" like I would any other team I'm not invested in (which is all 31 others). There won't be a "WooHoo!, WE won it all!", because Yes, there WILL be an asterisk there. Sadly, I think the Cavs' lone championship will be more meaningful - and I dislike nearly everything about basketball and LeBron. The Tribe doesn't exist anymore, so that sport is dead to me, too.... Life Simplified.

According to who? watson and his attoney?

That's pretty much the way I feel about it with one distinct difference. My favorite sport to watch is the NFL. I follow and watch several teams and players. None ever had my support and loyalty like the Browns. So I will probably etch out time to watch the NFL on Sunday afternoons. The word fan was prefect in its meaning. "Fanatic". Those days are now gone. They're just 1 of 32 teams now in the NFL. Living in Nashville it has cost me paying for DirctTV or NFL Game pass. I've purchased tons of Browns gear on an annual basis. In the grand scheme of things it isn't what most people would consider a big percentage of their income, however it will be money I can now spend on other things. And yes, I'm still proud of my Joe Thomas jersey.

Now I will just choose between my locally televised games. Sure if the Browns are on I'll watch. But like I said, now they are just 1 of 32 teams and nothing more.

I know.

This post needs repeating.

No! Parroting according to popular opinions.

I am with you on this. I've stayed off this thread for quite awhile because it's so disgusting, but a thought struck me about what is occurring here. You have a poster like 888 saying things about people spamming the board or repeating themes, yet he has never said one single word about how Pit has uttered a phrase about 22 women must be lying.. LOL.........the hypocrisy is a hoot! Furthermore, look at the guys who throwing the most shade at Watson and the morals of the situation. They are the most amoral people on this board.

Here is some breaking news..........no matter how often you stamp your feet, say you won't root for the Browns, scream that a man is guilty even though he hasn't been convicted, and try to get everyone else to see things your way........it doesn't matter, because Baker is gone regardless and all your pretend temper-tantrums will never change that.

Back to telling others how and what to post I see.

Again, it seems after you reinvented history about Baker driving out OBJ and lying about a source inside the locker room that said Baker was a cancer ... and getting called out for it ... you have decided to lash out. For shame. Two posts back to back where you can't keep my name out of your post.

Some of the posts in this thread are very unsettling and don't leave me with a good feeling. I think that I'll avoid this thread from now on....

DeShaun Watson the 2022 free agent signing will equal out to, (on the field performance), something less than
What could have been
had the Browns drafted DeShaun Watson wayy back in what year he came out,
and kept him on the team
for his entire time.

Any player starting on a new team, at the same level, (the NFL level), after premiering on a different team, has less incentive to come through when the times get the hardest.

I went here tonight hoping for actual football, but as usual it gets turned into a crap fest.

I’m excited about seeing DW at the minicamp, anyone else looking forward to that? I am sure there will be a DW presser, I hope the media doesn’t spend the whole time asking him about the off-field stuff. My hopes for that aren’t very high.

Vers, I saw you responded to me over Baker's podcast that I shared. I just wanted you to know not to waste your time, because I put you on ignore after I saw you were going to stick around. And it's not that your posting in PF is particularly offensive or even that your opinions are necessarily wrong, but we have history in here, and I'd rather just keep it peaceful. If I read your posts, I would feel obligated to prove you wrong or shut you down at some point, in one of the more opinionated forums. And low and behold, you are already up to your old tricks and tbh, I don't want to see your BS. You never could stand Baker, period. And yes, you always came across like you had an anti Bake agenda. Just telling you how I and some others see it.

Happy you came back to the community though, glad you survived the pandemic while you were away too. That's all I have for you, so no need to reply or defend your position. Just move on.

So, you read his post. Odd.

https://sports.yahoo.com/deshaun-watson-risk-nfl-discipline-200934390.html

Deshaun Watson’s Risk of NFL Discipline Rises as Lawsuits Expand
Michael McCann
Fri, April 8, 2022, 4:09 PM·4 min read
In this article:

LOL This dude may never play again. At least Jimmah just threw 250 million away.

If it was one of the 22 women who rejected a financial settlements he's in even more deep trouble. New witnesses will be heard. Maybe more allegations and after that eventual new civil law suits.

Forget him fully focused on football. This doesn't look good.

Did he now offer to settle? I thought DW was the one who didn't want to settle out of court.

Ok...its not true it is an amazing coincidence that over 20+ young ladies have "ACCUSED" him of the same method and similar circumstance. You wish to believe he is squeaky clean go right ahead. 1 maybe 2 I can put aside as lying... but 20+ and they now have 20++ who didn't say no. really oober and I thought I was naive

There's another concern that all fans should be weary of and that is the contract presumes that Watson will be suspended in 2022 or 2023. For any suspension imposed after 2023, the default language would apply, no matter what. This would include the Browns having an out of the guaranteed contract.

Other outs spelled out in the contract and here’s where it gets interesting, and potentially risky, for Watson. What if he eventually admits to having consensual sexual encounters with one or more of the 18 massage therapists who issued statements of support on his behalf? Earlier this week, a judge concluded that Watson must answer whether he did indeed have sexual encounters with any, some, or all of those 18 women.

If Watson admits to having sexual encounters with any, some, or all of those 18 women, could that get him suspended, regardless of the outcome of the investigation regarding the 22 massage therapists who accuse him of wrongdoing? The Commissioner could decide that Watson should miss games without pay as part of the effort to intervene and to resolve the behaviors that resulted in Watson repeatedly (if the evidence supports that conclusion) using massage sessions as cover for the solicitation of prostitution. In paragraph 42, Watson “represents and warrants (except as disclosed to club in writing), as of the date hereof, that (i) Player has not been charged with, indicted for, convicted of or pled nolo contender to any felony and/or misdemeanor involving fraud or moral turpitude, (ii) Player has not engaged in conduct which would subject him to a charge, indictment or conviction of any such offense, and (iii) no circumstances exist that would prevent Player’s continuing availability to the Club for the duration of this Contract.”

The important part I think people are missing is the reaction from Watson should the Browns try to void the guarantees. Considering his history - I suspect Watson demands a trade immediately if the Browns go down that path. If the Browns don't void the guarantees, what stops Watson from demanding a new coach and/or front office? You say it couldn't happen but it already has in a way with his actions in Houston. Will Watson sit out because the Browns void his guarantees or fail to put the coach or FO in place he wants?

Is this all made-up mumbo-jumbo? Where do you get this from? Certainly not that article...

The article states that two previously existing plantiffs added the additional charge of gross negligence. This has no bearing on anything other than expanding the net of punitive damages they can seek.

And SuperBrown, your response is even worse.


NFL: "Yeah, Deshuan, we were going to let you slide on the civil assault, sexual harassment, sexual misconduct, and just plain being a pervert... but gross negligence? Sorry, we're going to have to draw the line somewhere."

Welcome to the forum previously known as Pure Football.

I admire the optimism

Unfortunately, this is football stuff. Not knowing the availability of your new franchise QB couldn't be any more about football. We could talk about the WR's or lack there of, the worst rated defensive interior in the NFL in 2021 with zero upgrades to date, a huge hole at DE currently not filled and chances of an upgrade looking poorer with each passing day but none of that is talk worthy if the 230M guaranteed contract QB you have is sitting at home when the season starts. What's the importance of mini camp if the player is not going to be available? Isn't that actually football talk?

Whether you want to believe or talk about it, Watson's baggage is and will have a direct impact to the PURE FOOTBALL of the Cleveland Browns. It will be a cloud over the head of the team until it comes to its conclusion whenever that might be. It has no bearing what side of the fence you fall on in this matter, the affect that it has on the Cleveland Browns and their Pure Football ability is deeply imbedded in the baggage that comes with Watson to Cleveland.

The 22 civil suits (or the possibility of more) became a part of Pure Football due to the actions of Watson and the Cleveland Browns. Both are guilty of these self-inflicted wounds and as such has made them a part of the Pure Football talk. Ignoring it won't make it go away, support or non-support will not make it go away, or getting into a crap shoot because you don't like another's opinion won't make it go away. It's a part of the Browns and it's not going away anytime soon. This is Cleveland Browns Pure Football - get used to it because it's going to be here a while!

IMO, as far as "I have you on ignore" posts usually go, that one was pretty neutral and positive.

It's not an either/or. I've said before that he's obviously a creep, and clearly has some sort of sexual addiction. While (more than likely) this means he engaged in risky and even bad/immoral/inappropriate behavior, I'm still not clear on if he crossed 'the line' wherever that may be due to his argument of everything being consensual. Beyond that, consent for someone that is not used to hearing no (as we read from a text from his 'handler') can be a tricky thing. Not trying to defend him here, but I think I'm seeing a shift in how we look at the players and us opening ourselves up to being labeled as hypocrites.

Hopefully to clarify what I'm trying to say here.... I'm all over the place on this topic. I'm kinda not looking forward to TC, in a way. I was never naïve enough to think that every player in the NFL was a saint, or even that no player has engaged in a similar behavior as Watson. He's sticking to his guns and not trying to settle and sweep it under the rug like many before him. For me and my Browns fandom, I want to know (as much as possible) what he did and didn't actually do. For me to continue to cheer for the Browns, I gotta know that the face of the franchise doesn't habitually cross the line in terms of sexual assault.

So far nobody knows as far as I have seen if it was Watson or any of the 22 women who rejected any settlements. Maybe it was none of them.

It could be Mr Happy but if it was one of the women these civil law suits will become much more complicated then many first expected. As long as a financial package can prevent this end up inside the court room then there is a chance he can still play some part of 2022 season and maybe in the whole 2023. If there is no settlements this can potentially drag out to the end of 2023 or even 2024.

So this question is much more important then just if you or I’m right or wrong about who’s rejecting settlement or not. Remember that when you make own conclusions about other members intentions.

Except there is a forum dedicated specifically to the legal side of player issues.

Had this topic been more about how the legal issues affect his possible suspension, then it fits. But most has been about the moral, ethical and legal precedence than about how it relates to or affects the team.

It matters not what your opinion is. The facts have not been established.

We have a system of law, not mob rule by self-righteous people.

I have been trying to follow the guidelines set up in the forum descriptions (quoting from here and responding in Tailgate), but I'm slowly giving up.

If 20++ women make serious accusations about sexual misbehavior’s then that’s a fact that this person has overstepped what these women think is acceptable, guilty by the law or not is irrelevant, when these civil law suits become public information it’s a open discussion about people’s view of morality and consequences.

Both the NFL and the Browns has to adapt to some extent to the public opinion and too much negative media coverage will financially affect them if they don’t want to lose some of their customers and sponsors. In 2022 almost every relevant organization understands that they must publicly declare their values and social stance in important questions to long term keep their customers. Those who is out of touch with reality will soon be aware of that such ignorance can be costly.

You can call it a mob or whatever you like but that’s how our society works nowadays with social media and activist groups. As soon as the issue become political and a question about morality then legally right or wrong goes out of the window.

Sometimes these ”protest’s” affect innocent people but this is the world we’re living in.

Anyone one believing one man over 22 women, actually more, only 22 of the accusers filed suit, has to be a naive and agenda driven person. You believe what you want to believe and have thrown common sense out the window. No surprise there.

Which has nothing to do with watson no matter how much this lie you've repeated claims otherwise.

It's odd how so many think they know the rules as to what does and does not fit in the guidelines of Pure Football. Sadly for those who wish to control what is posted here, even the very owner of this board has replied in these threads including this one and has not moved any of these threads. It seems as though the owner of the very message board you are speaking of has decided that in the case of Deshawn Watson and his legal issues, it is directly tied to the team, his availability to play and can directly impact the team.

All of the whining and bickering to the contrary obviously holds no value. There is a thread about Deshawn's play if you really wish to avoid this part of the discussion which induces some deep needed and overwhelming desire to complain about it being here.

I'm just sayin...Guy may be finished AND should be finished!...Laugh all you want!

Says a guy who is the biggest perpetrator of the problem and has spent 3 threads repeating the same tired lines over and over.

The person who owns this board disagrees with you on whether this belongs here or not. I have a suggestion for you. Since you seem to be so fascinated with whether these threads belong here, maybe you should take your own advice. You do realize there is a forum dedicated to addressing the Refs as to what goes on here, right? Fan Feedback. Since you hate to see threads you deem imappropriate in the Pure Football Forum, maybe it's you who should be addressing that concern in the proper forum. Just food for thought.

Watson is currently not yet suspended, therefore, it's entirely not a thing, until it would become a thing, there is no sense discussing it.

However, many are not highlighting that Watson Already had to miss the entirety of the 2021 season, and imo, it was because his Team Owner was railroading him, therefore he's already been punished 16 games of his career (17), as time served, for allegations that couldn't even gather a trial by a grand jury.

(.. That means absolutely nothing TL? ... NO! because eventually, the NFL, can face NLRB culpability for denying the guy a chance to make a living at his chosen profession in as much as they are a sanctioned Monopoly in the US. )

However! A /any potential suspension of Watson, as a primary QB of the Browns being a drawback to the Browns 2022 season, only PALES IN COMPARISION, to the Monolith that is the Browns!!! Eschewing Continuity! and again changing changes, for the sake of change, and issuing a COMPLETE rebuild, of the Starting Quarterback, and Number 1 WR, (plus the #2 WR, Plus the most reliable WR Higgins)
So OBJ, Jarvis Landry, and Rashard Higgins are all GONE! and they, (the Browns) (( who seem to lack any plan they can stick to for more than 20 months, EVER! ! ! ! ! )) ,,, Have once again, chosen a complete redirection of philosophy over any sense of team identity.

That monolith, of Rebuild, will have a much higher impact on the drawback to Browns success in 2022, than any allegations raised against D.Watson.

Again with the 20 month rebuilds, and what it is likened to. ( And the Browns apparently, evidently have gone from in April of 2021 following/ imitating anything the Bucs would do, (i.e. they took Ohio State DL, because the Bucs were rumored to like him, plus a couple of their pre draft moves were rumored to be liked by the Bucs, (buccaneers)
to All of a sudden in 2022, the Browns are imitating the Rams, by giving up all draft picks in hopes not using first rounders will lead to success, because that is what the Rams did...

What can it be likened to. Every year "teams" win super bowls, ONe TEam rather, the team that wins. And Every year those teams tend to have some things in common, and one of the things they have in common is an Identity. ( I!! dentity)

So What it is likened to, when the Browns change course in 20 months or less, every time since whenever.

There are 32 teams, and they have 32 identitys, all trying for a magical experience, that somehow translates into that special something that equals winning it all on a given year.
Imagine, each team is trying to have a Wonderful experience, a 'moment in time' so to speak, that can be authentic, Pure, and has the staying power of having stayed the course to be the one experience that makes it all the way to the Trophe.
So!
What are some magical experiences, some moments in time, and what do the Browns do to mess it all up by being (sidetracked, enamored, or tricked into falling in love, with a new idea, on about every 20 months.)

A Disney Vacation, A wedding day, A Childs Graduation, Christmas day opening presents, Halloween, The fireworks on the 4th of July.

So, perhaps, every year, a team wins the super bow, ( A birthday party) , because a team stuck with a plan, an identity, a focus, and created the #1 experience, that special something that worked out, to the be the BEST special something that year.

And what the Browns do, by making changes every 20 months, can be likened to changing philosophy, trying to chase a magical experience of a DIFFERENT KIND, right in the middle of their team identity.
So For example.

The Browns chase a wedding day, and fall in love with a beautiful Christmas Tree, a Lush Green Pine tree, it's got really great needles and it comes pre decorated, and they plop that Christmas tree right down on the middle of the dance floor at the wedding toast on the wedding day and wonder why the experience goes over like a lead balloon.

Or they fall in love with a beautiful Grand Finale of Fireworks display, and they set if off right in the middle of their Halloween display with straw and candy corn and Scarecrows and wonder why a fire breaks out and it all goes to squat.

If you can't stick with one plan, one team identity, one philosophy, you are not ever going to have the best team, and that is the bottom line.
and I don't care How much money they spend, or how much they monopolize talent, it's just Football,
it's been evident, over a lifetimes history of the league,
Football, is a little bit different,
Football! it's a whole team, it's 22 players plus, on every gameday, it's a whole philosophy, a whole identity, that works into something magical,
and it's not something that can be constructed overnight, at least not when the competition knows how to assemble theirs' with time, and continuity
it's not Basketball, it's not the business world, and it's not baseball,
Football is a little bit different,
and to find that special something, a team has to believe in itself, in it's direction, A team has to have a Faith in it's Own Makeup, and it's own NAME, (****)

It cannot just chase butterflies, or snipes, or change course every time the wind blows or the weather report changes.
Doing the same thing, sticking with a plan to fruition might not always work (because the good teams are so close in the end it comes down to chance about like the similarity in cars in Nascar)
But we know what doesn't work. We know that constant new faces is not a path to ultimate success.

Guess what! It's a rebuilding year. Thanks, Go Team!

My last on this and for the record I respect you as a poster and fan. You say its obvious he is a creep and has some sort of sexual addiction. Where did you get those observations. All I"m saying is this is REAL and not some rumor. Even you who say its not clear has a clear negative view on this regarding DW and his actions. Which proves my point. Well that is it for me. I look forward to the Browns Defense being awesome...GO D!!!

Great post Throw Long!

As long as I has followed team sports most successful clubs’s (Europe)and organization’s (US) has a couple of ingredients that they have in common.

1. A clear and visible philosophy.
2. A friendly environment built on discipline, hard work, trust and loyalty.
3. A winning culture that’s a mix of the above together with driven athletes and coaches who never accept second best.

When I look at the Browns and how they operate I don’t see much of the above.

I'll take "Posts I Never Thought I'd see in my Lifetime" for 400, Alex.

In what world (outside your own) is an accusation a fact?

It's not "an accusation".

…”then that’s a fact that this person has overstepped what these women think is acceptable, guilty by the law or not is irrelevant,”

Many politicians use your method and deliberately misread the context. It’s a successful way of clouding the original discussion and counter attack those with other thoughts.

Anyway nice try FL. Nothing wrong with your strategy but to fully succeed you need a little more finesse. I give you 5 out of 10 points. Average but not bad.

You obviously can't read. First that settlement was not concerning the Oil Spill (it even says so in that first paragraph). That was a judgement for workers at a refinery. Secondly, that settlement was later lowered from $100M to $500K by a Federal Judge. Buzbee made 100's of millions off of the Gulf Oilspill. He made over 20 million off of Huricane Ike suing Insurance companies...So in this case the settlement was 189M...16M for the attorneys...I think there were about 20 attorneys (that number may not be correct) he tried to hijack the other attorneys for 7.5 mil of that 16...ended up with 4 and then took 16 mil more from his clients (despite the allocation for the attorneys) His costs from the case 750K...I guess 400% profit isn't good enough for him. He needed 2000%

I never said the women did not deserve representation. But Buzbee is the instigator and will only get involved in a case if he can get a class action suit and make a ton of money (from his own mouth...it has to be high profile and high money to get involved). So the motivations behind all of this are very questionable from the attorneys aspect. The fact that you think Buzbee is taking any kind of risk is hilarious...I gave you too much credit....

You do understand that 24 women making separate accusations is not "an accusation"

I'll just do a quick review of your post since that's all I think it deserves. First, your claim was, "How much did he make off of that compared to everyone else???( hint: it was 100's of MILLIONS) ". Then when you actually broke it down, Buzbee made 20 million. (That's according to figures you have given no proof of.) You do realize that 20 mil. isn't "hundreds of millions, right?


Then you actually pointed out that in a case where the original award was 100 million, it was actually settled for 500k. Not a case where Buzbee actually "got rich from". Many cases are often settled for much less after the original judgement.

Then you try to take what every successful attorney does and try to twist it into something evil. Every high profile, successful attorney has the option to select their clients. They select high profile, well paying cases because over the course of their careers, their success has given them that option. Maybe you should go look at watson's attorney Hardin as an example. Everyone from Wade Boggs, to Roger Clemens to Adrian Peterson. From Dow Jones and Exxon Mobil.

What you're attempting to do is paint an attorney's options to pick and choose their clients based on having a long and successful career as something sinister while Watson's attorney fits that exact same category. Stop trying to vilify success.

Plaintiffs suing Deshaun Watson seek records from Texans

Posted by Mike Florio on
April 16, 2022, 1:13 PM EDT
link


As the 22 civil lawsuits pending against Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson move toward an inevitable trial (barring a settlement), the lawyer representing the plaintiffs is seeking information from Watson’s former team, the Houston Texans.

It’s standard practice in civil litigation for the lawyers to cast a wide net, in the hopes of developing any evidence that possibly would help prove the case. The limits of permissible discovery are broad, with parties permitted to seek any information that is reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence at trial.

Via Adam Ferrise of the Cleveland Plain Dealer, the request seeks various forms of documents from the Texans, including any communications regarding the accusations made against Watson, Watson’s contract with the Texans, records of payments made by the Texans on Watson’s behalf for physical therapy or massages in 2019-20, any payments made to the Houstonian hotel on behalf of Watson, any records of rooms at the Houstonian hotel made available to any Texans players, copies of nondisclosure agreements the team provided to Watson, communication about accusations against Watson from the team’s security employees, communications between Watson and the team’s head trainer or training staff regarding massages or the Houstonian, and any communications between the team and the Houston or the Home2Suits hotel.

“I’m not sure what it’s about, but I know they keep trying to draw the Texans into this, even though that has been disproven, under oath,” Watson’s lawyer, Rusty Hardin, told Ferrise. “I don’t think this is significant. [The Texans] had nothing to do with the massages, so other than that I’m not sure what this will do.”

Even if Hardin is right, the plaintiffs need to explore those angles. At some point, frankly, the Texans could have liability to the 22 plaintiffs if the team knew or should have known that Watson was in the habit of arranging massages that became something more than massages.

Makes me wonder if the Texans knew Watson was seeking an inordinate number of extra message therapy sessions and/or did anyone in the Texans organization give Watson any advice concerning his extra message therapy sessions..?

Could the Texans franchise get drawn into this lawsuit based on information that might be gained if members of the Texans are deposed..?

Seems that the lawyer for the therapists might be trying to expand their case..just guess.

Or the attorney is in desperation mode and looking for anything to stick...

It's been over a year and the attorney is just now reaching out to his previous employer?

They want to determine who knew what and when they knew it.. I bet they want money out of both Watsons pocket and the Texans...

Why would the team even care if he was getting extra massages? I'm not talking about the alleged charges, but if a player wanted a massage everyday, why would the team even care? And what is an "inordinate" amount of massages? Professional athletes work out everyday, getting a massage everyday would seem pretty helpful and therapeutic.

Yes and no.

As has been said by others including Rich Eisen - athletes have lots of massages but from very few therapists. Having a massage a day and using a different therapist for each would be a giant red flag. There is some txt message from the team coordinator that indicates this and indicates that DW is getting a reputation. . . . I am not going to speculate on any of that - but simply say that in order to know more of the truth, I don't see this as being an unreasonable request. It may lead no-where ... we don't know.

Where did he seek the women? The yellow pages? The BBB?

I think when that is examined, then we have a pretty good picture of just what was going on here.

Instagram ads. I'd like to see these ads, espsecially the ones where massages were offered by non massage therapists.

I really don't want to speculate or voice opinions until more is known ... but in answer to your question, as I understand it from what I read when this all broke and the Browns were interested in DW - initially the therapists DW went to outside of the Team providers or however that process is described, DW was seeking professional licensed therapists. I see one myself - they are akin to physical therapists and understand your body intimately. I believe the initial complaint that kicked this all off was from a licensed professional who DW is alleged to have acted sexually inappropriately with. It appears to have started off "small" - revealing himself etc - then moving on to touching himself, then trying to have the therapist touch him, to him masturbating in front of them to worse. Through this period of escalation - DW moved from licensed professional services to more questionable/unprofessional sources. People offering massage that aren't licensed/trained/professional. It's because of the fact that SOME of the 22 women are not professionals and advertise online in places where 'rub and tug' type services are allegedly common - that some individuals want to try to indicate/assume ALL these women are akin to sex workers and have whored themselves to DW and are now trying to make a fast buck. So in answer to your question - initially the sources were highly legitimate - and later went to other sources. The pattern of escalation seems to fit the profile of someone finding and feeding a vice. But again - all speculation and all the word of 22 women against DW because despite a handful of supporting text messages there is no video evidence or physical evidence. In a country where the police can shoot an unarmed man in the back or on a traffic stop and walk away Scott free unless there is video evidence, it's not truly surprising. I have posted the numbers of convictions, chargers and even the number of reported sex offenses - they are all ridiculously low. So even if true - the realistic probability of proving anything in a criminal case is absurdly low - in a civil case the burden of proof is lower. We'll learn more eventually.

Instagram....I don't get in to all that stuff. Isn't that a pick-up type site where all sorts of things are advertised? Does it have an adult section? Again, I don't tweet or have facebook, so I may be confusing this with some of the others I have heard about.

It's a photo and video sharing site where you're allowed to advertise and sell you "brand". Sex sells and it's very evident in Instagram ads. Just log on to Instagram and type "massage" to see what I mean.

Looks around...types furiously on internet keyboard...hopes to beat the inquisitive Peen to the best t-a-i-l.

I've stayed out of this thread for multiple reasons that no one cares about...but I will say this:

I think the massage things and the 22 accusations are a horrible look...but when I read that a judge was/is going to demand that other massage-providing, non-accusers reveal their sexual activities with DW...I threw the BS flag. Not in defense of DW as much as in defense of these women.

As far as ON THE FILED...my memory of DW has been that of a really, really good QB, great leader and a guy who looks to run a little more than I care for. I hope we get him some weapons to throw-to and don't get him killed by lacking OTs (backups) and ineffective schemes (don't care why they existed or why they go away).

Berry and Co have pushed all their chips into the middle of the table. This needs to work on many levels.

j/c

Where did people get their information they "were all from Instagram"? And did you know that doctors advertise on Instagram? Businesses of all types market themselves on Instagram. Just because the world has passed some of you by and you don't understand that Instagram and other popular social media platforms have become the new marketing tools of the time does not mean it's something nefarious.

Instagram Marketing for Doctors – A Guide to Patient Engagement

https://intrepy.com/1000-instagram-followers-medical-practices/

25 Fantastic Examples of Brands Using Instagram

With more than 400 million active monthly users, Instagram has grown into a social network that businesses need to pay attention to. It’s more than just a photo-sharing site -- it’s a way to engage fans and show off the best side of your business. Just look at this list of 25 companies that have mastered their brand focus on Instagram.

1. Lowes

Lowes does a smart job of promoting its products on Instagram: The company connects with users by showing people real-world applications for the products it sells.

2. Starbucks

To promote its brand and connect with customers on Instagram, Starbucks regularly brings in images of followers and makes them part of its brand story. In this way, Starbucks follows the advice of Ann Handley:

3. Ben & Jerry’s

Ben & Jerry’s has some serious personality when it comes to flavors and brand positioning, and the company lets that personality shine in its Instagram posts.

Everything from Taco bell to Converse is on their list..

https://www.entrepreneur.com/article/283615

Businesses of all types market themselves on Instagram. It doesn't make them seedy or immoral. Baseless character attacks to support some desired results in your own mind doesn't make it true.

You are so predictable in your twistathons. Nobody said all the contacts were made thru Instagram, but a subtantial number were. .cbsnews Sure there are legit ads on there, but the place is full of sexually oriented ads and everyone knows it. Wanting to see the ads DW answered doesn't qualify as "baseless character attacks", no matter how you twist it.

You were saying? Innuendo is a real thing. Pretending it isn't does not become you.

Got me there.

True. But the purple font was not needed.

I almost hate to comment because in my opinion, I don't want to assign guilt to Watson, the accusers, the attorneys, or the Texans before the legal matter plays out. I am not omniscient on the truth of this case like Pit, 888, Mac, Flo, steve, etc. I am more in a wait and see mode and have been from the beginning. It bothers me that so many women who report sex crimes ofter become the target of claims of why were you dressed that way, why were you in a pick-up bar, etc, etc. No means no in my world. On the other hand, I have experienced false allegations and thankfully the accuser admitted to police that they were lying and coerced into making those claims. I am very sensitive to both sides of this proverbial coin and I despise when guys like Pit state that I am feeling a particular way. \\

Thus, with trepidation, I am going to offer this scenario. Quite some time ago, Watson was regarded as perhaps the guy w/the best character in the league. I live in SC and I know he was adored by everyone who was around him at Clemson. It went beyond his play on the field. Almost everyone saluted his integrity and what a wonderful human being he was. He was regarded in similar fashion in Houston. His community service was astounding. When the allegations were first presented by the attorney, there were folks who questioned his motives. They spoke of things on how the Texans owner said things like you can't allow the “inmates running the prison," when the kneeling thing was going on. There were numerous reports of extreme racism being inbred in the Texans' organization and that is why Watson wanted out. There were also reports from well-connected media types like SAS about how the Texans were the ones to contact the attorney and slander Watson's name.

I have not mentioned this before because I do not want to cast negative dispersions on the women who are part of this civil suit. But dang, this latest news lends some credibility to the Texans initiating the claims against Watson. And furthermore, I question why there were not any criminal charges before the civil charges. Of course, I could be wrong about that because I haven't followed closely. I am under the assumption that the civil charges were filed first and then the criminal considerations followed.

One last comment........we had Easter dinner today at our home. We spent a bit of time talking about the case. Two Browns fans [me and my daughter], two Steeler fans [wife and son,] one Raiders fan [son in law.] I brought up some of the commentary on this board and how folks like Pit, Flo, 888, Mac, steve, etc really want Watson to be guilty. One of them says he doesn't want to speculate and then he speculates. Another keeps bring up his daughters. Another repeats 22 women a thousand times. I have no idea if Watson is guilty or not. If he is, I think he should be punished. If he is not, I think he should be allowed to live as a free man. What I detest, is how some of you want him to be guilty. That is so freaking perverse! Because, if he is guilty, that would mean there really are real-life victims and they will forever be compromised. My family and I find that line of thinking detestable! We are talking about human beings. And wishing that Watson sexually molested women is pretty freaking sick.

It's sort of funny but sort of creepy and unpleasant.

This is what I post - which to me is pretty fair, balanced, non-judgemental:


And this is what someone has to write about my


I guess I should be glad I wasn't called "Evil".

I don't know about posters on here wanting Watson to be guilty, but Florio does. Ever since Watson signed with the Browns, Florio has been pushing a guilty verdict pretty much non-stop. If Watson had gone to another team, I don't think we get the same Florio.

Thanks for confirming that you were speculating.

I am uncomfortable with the DW situation because of the accusations against him. Like Clem and others - I feel like, no matter what, and asterisk will be imprinted next to what happens next even if that is just in my head. If you had bothered to read anything I have written - I have said I am not judging others for how they react to the signing - my best friend in all the world does not care about DW's guilt or innocence, he just wants the Browns to win and I don't agree but I ain't judging him or anyone else that feels that way. I don't feel good about it - for lots of reasons - I hope he clears his name but not being prosecuted is no where near close to exoneration like some claim. Putting aside the legal issues the upgrade and cost in draft capital is a no brainer. And that's been my position from the beginning - and consistent. I'm trying hard to not engage until the civil cases are done.... but when I see posters making misinformed statements it's hard not to at least provide some easily available context.

That is a very good post. It's fair and rational. I will take back what I said. However, I still don't want to talk to you moving forward in this forum. You've lost my trust. If you would like to discuss things in a PM, I would be beyond willing to do so. I'm tired of all the bickering and I understand that I have been a part of that. Trying to move forward.

I know Clem. I met Clem. Clem laughs at my jokes. You're no Clem.

He's here now, so all the grumbling in the world isn't going to reverse that. All we can do is HOPE he's innocent, unless something changes, but I'm beginning to think the team is ok with things being so unresolved. I mean why else give him so much? Surely in the months of due diligence Berry did, he figured out what was what here. Then again, we are talking about some billionaires and millionaires making a decision to try to stuff their pockets, maybe win a Super Bowl. At this point all we can really do is wait and see how it unfolds. If they play this season with everything still unresolved, it's going to be hard to get excited.

My post indicates I share an opinion with Clem ... in no way shape or form does it imply I am similar to Clem as a poster or individual. Clem is probably my favorite poster to read in any portion of this board, I'm glad you met him and he laughs at your jokes.

The very act of you posting such lies is what's sick. You sir have asked people to speak in a civil manner to you and then post this tripe. If your family is stupid enough to believe this lie I suggest they seek counseling.

You still insist on lying don't you? I don't "want watson to be guilty". You just keep lying about that. I'm just not foolish enough to think 22 women are lying while one man is the beacon of truth. To believe that the value you place on women must be pretty low.

You see, by wanting watson to be guilty it would mean I want these accusations to be true. I would never want things like what's in these accusations to happen to any woman.

I think you are drunk posting again. One day you say let's be civil and the next day call people out with lies. It must be the alcohol. Next you'll be claiming others are picking on you again. Your M.O. never changes.

Yeah, you just called out a bunch of people with your lies and then say this? You're tired of the bickering? Then maybe you shouldn't post lies that undermine the character of others. The term two faced comes to mind right about now.

Most Browns fans are really good people. You find them hiding Everywhere in the country

vers...so, for conversation at your Easter dinner, you sit there and lie like hell to your own family about knowing how some of your fellow board members "really want Watson to be guilty"...you are such a ...

You seem to admit that you are not as knowledgeable on Watson's legal case as some of us, yet you have no problem passing judgement on those of us who do research for and provide information....and/or comment on the Watson's legal issues.

No one knows for sure who will be the starting QB for the Browns once this season starts or how this life changing event might affect Watson once he is allowed to play football. It has already been 16 months since Watson last played and it is unknown how much longer Watson's legal issues might keep him off the the field.

Did you call Dak's lawyer again?

As for the rest of your post, I see several posters continually posting opinions and articles that are completely one-sided. At that point, one has to ask oneself what is their angle? Why not post opinions and articles from all sides of the story? I see other posters like jfan, oober, cfrs, etc who talk about multiple aspects of this topic. They are not one-sided. In fact, they are open minded.

My stance has been consistent. He should be punished by the legal system if he committed crimes. He should not be punished if he did not do anything illegally. I don't want to be the judge, jury, and executioner. I'll allow the legal system to sort it all out and I don't feel the need to condemn or excuse a man and the women who are involved in this case. But, you guys keep doing you. Just don't get too upset when some of us can see through your not-so-cleverly-disguised facade.

Or when you just make up BS? You've done it about this topic and Baker.

vers...at least you didn't deny sitting at your dinner table and lying to your family about those of us that dare to write anything you don't agree with concerning Watson.

Got a taste of the snow already...

Just stop and put posters you argue with every damn day on ignore bro. smh.

Snow in mid April seems excessive.

Very.

It’s just my weather rehashed. We got about 2” of snow in the valley last Tuesday. It sucked.

I'll deny it now, mac. We weren't eating dinner. It was well after dinner and football came up. Thus, the topic of Watson came up and I brought up how you and Mr. "so you are saying 22 women are lying" popped into my mind and I shared that Again, when people try so hard to convince others of a certain idea, they are certainly being purposeful about it. That is why Pit has made the "22" comment over a hundred times. It's really important to you guys that others believe what you want them to believe.

mac, I am not of the guys who gets on your case about your hate for analytics and how you have made negative remarks towards the FO and analytics countless times. It's football and in the grand scheme of things, football opinions are almost meaningless. On the other hand, when you guys want to bring Tailgate issues into the "Pure Football forum," you open yourselves up to scrutiny because sexual misconduct issues and the character of a man and all of those women are in question. That is important, not some BS football topic like the FO, analytics, Baker, Hue, Stefanski, etc. Again, shame on all of you trying this case in the court of public opinion.

This is so funny..."we weren't eating dinner", therefore it's ok if you lied to your family about your claim that..




I'm guilty of posting articles...lol... and you can't stand that..! It bothered you that I provide information on the board, to make it easier for board members to be kept up to date on Browns news.

Many times I post articles without making a comment...

Show me where I ever said that I want Watson to be guilty...where did I say such a thing.

Nothing says you can't sit down and lie to family about those board members who might not always agree with you. If that is how you get your kicks...go for it.

Spin it anyway you want, mac. I didn't lie. I expressed my opinion that you--and some others--must want Watson to be guilty due to how much time you spend trying to convince everyone on here that he is guilty. Do you guys ever post articles or opinions that might provide a different perspective? You and LWL can have the last word because I'm done for now. I made my point. I meant what I said and I said what I meant. Y'all are shameful. We are talking real life here, not some inconsequential sports argument that doesn't mean a hill of beans to most rational folks.

Oh, and mac..........can you tell us what Dak's lawyer had to say when you called him? LOL.....have a good one.

I do have one question for the board. How did the attorney first proceed? Did he initially file criminal complaints or did he first bring the cases to civil courts and then file the criminal complaints later?