GM said something at the conclusion of the Fire Joe Woods thread about simplifying the scheme. I've been thinking about that for a couple of weeks now. I also want to touch on some other points.
I have heard that our D doesn't play w/any fire and we need a more passionate coach. I call hog-wash. I had good coaches and bad coaches. I had calm coaches and rabid coaches. Screamers and schemers. One even put his hands on many of us. In my case, it was around my neck. What I never needed was someone to motivate me to play my hardest or w/passion. If you need a coach to tell you to play hard and w/passion, you suck!
I have heard that our schemes suck. I look at the people saying those things and wonder how the hell would that person know? I've looked at the scheme closely after the breakdowns in game one and I really don't see anything glaring.
I think there are a couple of things worth examining. There is no doubt that we often have guys out of position at times. Too many easy plays. There is also no doubt that we often have guys in position and they fail to make the play.
I think we might have some really dumb players. I see them looking around and at each other. It even happened last week. Thus, I have to ask is our scheme too complicated for them and does Woods need to simplify things? I'd say that is a legit question and it might help us perform better. I am not saying that our scheme is too complicated w/any certainty. I am saying that the possibility exists.
The second point bugs me. We have too many guys missing tackles and taking bad angles to the ball. That's on them. If I were the DC, I would seriously consider benching a couple of these guys. Grant Delpit would be first on my list. I would consider giving D'Anthony Bell a shot because Harrison is another guy who doesn't play smart. Jacob Phillips would also be benched. Of course, I think Jones is going to replace him anyway this week. I'm just pointing out that the dude is pretty bad. And seriously......JOK needs to step up. I don't like any of our DTs, so benching one of them won't mean much because who would replace him/them?
To conclude, I think simplifying the scheme and making some personnel decisions are at least worth examining.
Another point that has been obvious for most of the year is that we have way too many plays where we get absolutely no pressure on the QB. Myles is getting double and even triple teamed on many plays. Most in the NFL. Despite that, the rest of our line is not generating pressure. Of course, Clowney sitting out is magnifying this problem. This is putting added pressure on our secondary. Neither of our safeties are great at providing deep help. Both are better when playing closer to the LOS. JJ makes some plays, but Delpit is perhaps the worst I have seen in regards to play recognition. He is often standing around on slower developing passing routes. I assume he isn't sure what he sees. Our LBers are not very good at getting the proper depth to help the secondary on the intermediate routes. This is a multi-functional problem, but much of it starts w/our DL not applying pressure on the qb. I am not just talking sacks. I'm including getting pressure on the qb and making him uncomfortable and/or making him speed up his reads.
Someone asked me after the Jets game as to what I thought was wrong w/the D. I said I would try and pay close enough attention to see what I could come up with. My first post and this last one explain a lot of what I've seen. There's more, but maybe it could spike some actual football conversation????
Yeah, I talked about the man coverage thing in another thread. Playing Cover 1 can help in some areas, but is way more risky. Be careful what you wish for.
We finally have an identity on offense but we don't have one on defense. We blitz, then we don't, we play man and we don't, we bring safeties down and we don't.
I agree with simplifying the scheme, let them get good at one thing, what that is, who knows we have man coverage corners running cover 3 on a regular basis, but start somewhere before we are changing every play. Have to crawl before you can run.
Draft elite athletes at corner and run zone, I just don't get what we are doing. Ward should be following guys and doesn't. Lots of things to hate.
Never would have lost the Jets game if they had mirrored Ward on Wilson.
I heard John Johnson was calling out players who aren't bought in. Guys who "can't wait to get out of the building". Suggesting that some players aren't giving their all. That's a bad situation to have in a locker room. Dudes need benched.
I think the Browns Identity on O. has been consistent for the past almost 3 years, even when Gregg Williams was around.
I. Blow the first opportunity, (drive), to put the game away late in the game by failing on the initial possession.((initial LaTE Game posesion )) (The first time you're put in position to win it/ take the game over late in the 2nd half.)
2 Inability to get a decent drive after given a turnover by your defense.
3. Don't make sure to at least get points (a.k.a. field goal) on a drive deep into opp. territory especially in the first half . 4. Unprepared to complete a pass if the line of scrimmage is inside the red zone.
5. Thank God the running game is kick a:' enough to almost disguise some of the other flaws.
Is there any way you guys will allow the topic to stay on track? The defensive coaching is brought up on all kinds of threads, like the Berry Draft picks thread. And now, in a thread about defensive coaching, you guys make ridiculous points about the offense.
Is that considered fact or opinion ? I ask that because someone just dismissed someone's opinion because it wasn't "fact" ....
I posted this in response to posts in another thread. Apparently the board police aren't happy so I am reposting here.
""Based on the this year's evidence and fact based assessment of Woods defensive coaching ability and his ability to build a scheme around available talent combined with his play calling on game day - I'd say there is a strong suggestion hat Wood's scheme is not fit for the NFL.
I don't know if that is mostly player talent - in which case maybe the spot light has to fall on Berry.
I don't know if that's lack of ability to coach, teach and get players playing up to or above their natural ability.
I don't know if it's effort and desire - something alluded to in a few posts recently - in which case it is Stefanski, Woods and every coach on the team.""
I guess I should add - that the 'fact based poster' claimed we have too many plays with no pressure on the QB - when in fact analysis apparently (Jake Burns) shows that we do in fact get pressure on the QB at a rate 5th best in the NFL. The question is - when and how do we get the pressure - we probably aren't getting consistent pressure with bringing only 4 - our DT's negate the probability that's going to be successful. And to other's points about Woods lack of mixing things up - do we only ever blitz with 1 extra guy (hence seeing a lot of Cover 1?) - that would put us into the somewhat predictable category allowing an opposing QB to quickly decide to avoid the middle (where there is extra safety help) and look for corner and out routes as his outlet. jmo.
Is there any way you guys will allow the topic to stay on track? The defensive coaching is brought up on all kinds of threads, like the Berry Draft picks thread. And now, in a thread about defensive coaching, you guys make ridiculous points about the offense.
I can't handle listening to talk radio. Can someone summarize what Warner said, please? Does he think our defensive problems are due to poor scheme and/or coaching? Thanks.
I can't handle listening to talk radio. Can someone summarize what Warner said, please? Does he think our defensive problems are due to poor scheme and/or coaching? Thanks.
Is there any way you guys will allow the topic to stay on track? The defensive coaching is brought up on all kinds of threads, like the Berry Draft picks thread. And now, in a thread about defensive coaching, you guys make ridiculous points about the offense.
Browns: It is time for Kevin Stefanski to be the boss
Cory Kinnan October 16, 2022 4:36 pm ET
We are now six weeks into the season, and the Cleveland Browns are still making the same mistakes they made in Week 1. While the Browns do not want to make midseason changes to their coaching staff according to The OBR’s Brad Stainbrook, it is time for Kevin Stefanski to make the tough decisions a boss has to make.
There is little shot Stefanski gets fired as the offensive side of the football has been a bright spot (outside of today’s lemon of a game against the New England Patriots). Especially considering he is working with a journeyman backup quarterback who is starting to look like one again.
However, at the end of the day, his staff is a reflection of him. And while defensive coordinator Joe Woods and special teams coordinator Mike Priefer are personal friends of Stefanski, this train is too far off the rails to attempt to redeem.
Coming into this game against the Patriots, the Cleveland defense ranked dead last in DVOA, making them the least efficient defense in the league. They entered 16th against the pass and 32nd against the run.
Those numbers will not be trending up as the Woods-led defense allowed a fourth round rookie in Bailey Zappe to drop over 300 yards passing on them. They also allowed over 100 yards rushing again, which has become too consistent of a theme for this unit.
There are no more excuses left out there for Woods. He had his unit firing as a top-10 unit at the end of last season, but this type of regression and effort is nothing but a reflection of the man guiding them. The bye week is two weeks away for the Browns, but with back-to-back games against division rivals that could save the season in Cleveland, they have no margin for error.
The same goes for Priefer’s special teams units as they managed to produce two costly mishaps at the end of the game when Cleveland still had a chance to fight back. An onside kick where A.J. Green touched the ball while out of bounds that would have been otherwise recovered by the Browns, then a muffed punt where Green once again vacated the gunner and allowed them to crowd punt returner Chester Rogers’ space.
Pile these on top of crucial missed kicks, poorly downed punts that could have rolled inside the five-yard line, and a blown onside kick in Week 2, these Priefer-led units are too prone to mistakes.
Again, the Browns have a back-to-back stretch against AFC North rivals, two teams that have shown vulnerability. However, the Browns need something to change, something to ignite a spark in this team. With this thin of a margin for error, there is little reason to continue to run it back with the current arrangement.
It is time for Stefanski to do the most difficult part of his job and fire his friends.
I think things are looking bleak for Woods and Priefer, although I am not sure how missed kicks are the latter's fault. LOL
I know the fans and media have the microwave mentality, but who is available to replace them? Fangio might be available and he has had a ton of success as a DC. He is pretty crusty and outspoken, though. Will that mesh w/what the FO [Depo and Berry] want? I'd hire him, but what if he doesn't want to come here because he sees the same talent issues that I see? We have no one on the staff w/a resume that says they should be the team's DC.
Everyone is saying this is a throwaway season. I don't necessarily agree w/that, but is firing those two guys going to make us a Super Bowl contender this year? I could be wrong and this is just an opinion, but it seems like it would be wiser to make these moves at the end of the season when there are more--and better--candidates available.
Thanks for the article. Lot's to unpack. I'll start w/Woods saying Delpit sees the field well. He certainly knows about this much more than the likes of me, but my observations paint a completely different picture. I can't remember too many guys who seem slower to react to plays developing on the field.
One more thing............JJ needs to shut his mouth about his teammates. I brought this up in the other forum. He can say those things behind closed doors, but you NEVER question your teammates while speaking to the media. I'm hoping the Browns don't bring him and his big mouth back next year.
So, now that Bitonio and Cooper have come out publicly (in addition to JJ), are you calling for them to be kicked off the team as you have Mayfield and now JJ? Maybe, this is a HC issue that has been festering in the locker room that guys like you and many others just turn your face away and pretend it isn't happening. Maybe if it was addressed last year when the then leader of the team brought the concern forward the Browns wouldn't be dealing with it still today. Instead, you chastised Mayfield and now JJ for not only questioning their teammates but actually leaders that are going public because we have a HC and FO that are obviously ignoring the issue and it's effecting the results on the field. So, tell me - when can we expect your post campaigning for the immediate release of Bitonio and Cooper?
To be fair, the Browns have had some key guys miss time w/injuries. Clowney, Myles, Ward, and Walker. All those guys are experienced vets and they come from all three levels of the defense. This has put a lot more responsibility on young, inexperienced guys. Other than perhaps Emerson, those young players haven't looked very good.
I was wondering when the injury excuse would get posted this year. Though it may have validity, it wasn't acceptable on any level last year for the performance of those playing so it shouldn't this year either. That's being fair, not when you decide.
I think things are looking bleak for Woods and Priefer, although I am not sure how missed kicks are the latter's fault. LOL
I know the fans and media have the microwave mentality, but who is available to replace them? Fangio might be available and he has had a ton of success as a DC. He is pretty crusty and outspoken, though. Will that mesh w/what the FO [Depo and Berry] want? I'd hire him, but what if he doesn't want to come here because he sees the same talent issues that I see? We have no one on the staff w/a resume that says they should be the team's DC.
Everyone is saying this is a throwaway season. I don't necessarily agree w/that, but is firing those two guys going to make us a Super Bowl contender this year? I could be wrong and this is just an opinion, but it seems like it would be wiser to make these moves at the end of the season when there are more--and better--candidates available.
What about Mike Zimmer? He was a good DC. He isn't in the NFL. Last I heard he was some sort of analyst for Deion Sanders at Jackson State. I think he could command some sort of cred with the players.
I do agree that mid season coordinator changes and expecting some real change is a big ask, especially when a big part of the problem is with the players. Our defense is riddled with players who have wide receiver mentalities. I said wide receiver because I couldn't come up with a word that encompassed words such as punk, pansy, selfish, narcissistic, wuss, and timid. If you have a word for that, please let me know.
I forgot about Zimmer. He was a good DC. I think he is another guy who has grown rather abrasive w/age. Not sure what to think about him as a possibility. I'd probably rather roll w/Woods for now. JMO.
I forgot about Zimmer. He was a good DC. I think he is another guy who has grown rather abrasive w/age. Not sure what to think about him as a possibility. I'd probably rather roll w/Woods for now. JMO.
If you missed my edit, I think abrasive is exactly what those guys need.
I agree with everything you said. I will add though that the player issues are the responsibility of the HC and FO. There's not a job in the world that a person can be successful at without being told what the expectations are and then holding people accountable to those expectations. If the Browns have noncommitted players on the team it is either one of two reasons: 1) they are unaware of the expectations or 2) they are not being held accountable. In both cases, it's the HC and FO responsibilities to treat everyone in a fair and balanced method. It is becoming more apparent with each passing day that it is not happening on the Cleveland Browns.
IMO what we don't have on D is that one guy that the other players fear just a bit. That one guy who might clean their clock if he feels they aren't doing their part. It seems that almost all good D's had that one guy.
We don't have that guy. If you don't have that in a player, you better have that in the coordinator and or head coach. We don't have that in the coaches either.
Maybe, but who is that guy on the Bills? 49ers? Cowboys? Tampa Bay? Those are top 4 ranked defensive teams this year.
peen, the game has changed a lot. So have the players and how they respond to coaches. It's not like it was back in our day. These guys can't be yelled at. Hell, the Cardinals tried to put in his contract about how much time Murray studies each week.
Not arguing w/you. Just a friendly debate.
Edit: I think those teams I listed have really good players on D. Look at SF w/Bosa and Warner. Cowboys have Parsons. Bucs have guys like White and David. Bills have Von Miller and T. White. Not sure if any of those guys rule the locker room like a Ray Lewis, Mike Singletary, Dick Butkus, etc.
IMO what we don't have on D is that one guy that the other players fear just a bit. That one guy who might clean their clock if he feels they aren't doing their part. It seems that almost all good D's had that one guy.
We don't have that guy. If you don't have that in a player, you better have that in the coordinator and or head coach. We don't have that in the coaches either.
I would love one that would come unglued and make a filthy Steeler pay the price for jumping on an injured team mate while he was lying on the ground.
Maybe, but who is that guy on the Bills? 49ers? Cowboys? Tampa Bay? Those are top 4 ranked defensive teams this year.
peen, the game has changed a lot. So have the players and how they respond to coaches. It's not like it was back in our day. These guys can't be yelled at. Hell, the Cardinals tried to put in his contract about how much time Murray studies each week.
Not arguing w/you. Just a friendly debate.
Edit: I think those teams I listed have really good players on D. Look at SF w/Bosa and Warner. Cowboys have Parsons. Bucs have guys like White and David. Bills have Von Miller and T. White. Not sure if any of those guys rule the locker room like a Ray Lewis, Mike Singletary, Dick Butkus, etc.
Interesting conversation...
It sounds like the analytics folks don't like the kind of football that the Browns are playing now that the entire Browns program is influenced primarily upon "analytical values"..! This is year 3 of the entire Browns franchise operating according to an owner, upper management and front office, including the draft team, the coaching staff (top to bottom) the Head Coach and Coordinators...ALL operating under a football system based on ANALYTICS.
It sounds as if some would like to see a Browns team, especially on the defensive side to show a bit of aggression and toughness from the Browns ... kind of like the Steelers show...like some players on the Browns roster who show leadership skills along with someone willing to fill the role of an "enforcer" .
Players who exhibit values such as aggressiveness, toughness or are overly emotional by the standards written into the " the Browns Harvard Guidlines" don't last long in Cleveland. Players performing outside the Guidelines as outlined by Haslam's Chief strategy officer will find out who the REAL ENFORCER is of the Browns franchise. Those players who don't meet Depodesta's standards of conduct will find themselves out of Cleveland in a heartbeat.
Analytics, especially on the Browns defensive side, is all about "making nice"...IMO
You may want to make it that because that is the foundation you have built....but that isn't it. Your foundation is still full of cracks and falling apart.
You may want to make it that because that is the foundation you have built....but that isn't it. Your foundation is still full of cracks and falling apart.
peen...I have no idea what you mean with your comment above... maybe you can explain "building a foundation"..?
The Browns foundation is 1000% ANALYTICS, built by Paul Depodesta...and their record speaks for itself, especially on the defensive side of the ball.
Honestly, I can't think of one thing that Depodesta has done for the Browns that would be interpreted as an example of Depo instilling toughness or aggressiveness in the franchise.
When you have what is now 4 different players going public about the commitment of players and/or just playing for the paycheck, you have a HC issue. Instead, we have forum posters that want the first two banished from the team and have yet to post about the second group. Now we have Bitonio and Cooper going public. How many more players does it take before people start to sit up and take notice. On a side note, you can bet that Bitonio and Cooper didn't decide to come out because of the last game. You can bet that this has been going on a long time, most likely before Cooper even got here and its's getting worse. I guess we'll have to wait and see which player goes public that wakes up the masses over the next 5-weeks.
A week ago I brought up that there seems to be something going on behind the scenes we don't know about. It seems I was right. A lot of dissension on our team.
Maybe, but who is that guy on the Bills? 49ers? Cowboys? Tampa Bay? Those are top 4 ranked defensive teams this year.
peen, the game has changed a lot. So have the players and how they respond to coaches. It's not like it was back in our day. These guys can't be yelled at. Hell, the Cardinals tried to put in his contract about how much time Murray studies each week.
Not arguing w/you. Just a friendly debate.
Edit: I think those teams I listed have really good players on D. Look at SF w/Bosa and Warner. Cowboys have Parsons. Bucs have guys like White and David. Bills have Von Miller and T. White. Not sure if any of those guys rule the locker room like a Ray Lewis, Mike Singletary, Dick Butkus, etc.
Interesting conversation...
It sounds like the analytics folks don't like the kind of football that the Browns are playing now that the entire Browns program is influenced primarily upon "analytical values"..! This is year 3 of the entire Browns franchise operating according to an owner, upper management and front office, including the draft team, the coaching staff (top to bottom) the Head Coach and Coordinators...ALL operating under a football system based on ANALYTICS.
It sounds as if some would like to see a Browns team, especially on the defensive side to show a bit of aggression and toughness from the Browns ... kind of like the Steelers show...like some players on the Browns roster who show leadership skills along with someone willing to fill the role of an "enforcer" .
Players who exhibit values such as aggressiveness, toughness or are overly emotional by the standards written into the " the Browns Harvard Guidlines" don't last long in Cleveland. Players performing outside the Guidelines as outlined by Haslam's Chief strategy officer will find out who the REAL ENFORCER is of the Browns franchise. Those players who don't meet Depodesta's standards of conduct will find themselves out of Cleveland in a heartbeat.
Analytics, especially on the Browns defensive side, is all about "making nice"...IMO
You may want to make it that because that is the foundation you have built....but that isn't it. Your foundation is still full of cracks and falling apart.
peen...I have no idea what you mean with your comment above... maybe you can explain "building a foundation"..?
The Browns foundation is 1000% ANALYTICS, built by Paul Depodesta...and their record speaks for itself, especially on the defensive side of the ball.
Honestly, I can't think of one thing that Depodesta has done for the Browns that would be interpreted as an example of Depo instilling toughness or aggressiveness in the franchise.
You, building the foundation of your argument.
As for Depo, he doesn't have anything to do with building toughness and aggressiveness in players. Sorry to break the news to you, but Depo isn't in charge of everything. He isn't in charge of the draft. He isn't in charge of on field activities.
When you have what is now 4 different players going public about the commitment of players and/or just playing for the paycheck, you have a HC issue. Instead, we have forum posters that want the first two banished from the team and have yet to post about the second group. Now we have Bitonio and Cooper going public. How many more players does it take before people start to sit up and take notice. On a side note, you can bet that Bitonio and Cooper didn't decide to come out because of the last game. You can bet that this has been going on a long time, most likely before Cooper even got here and its's getting worse. I guess we'll have to wait and see which player goes public that wakes up the masses over the next 5-weeks.
I agree with you even though I get the feeling you are somehow trying to take it back to baker comments. I don't think many took Bakers comments about some guys just wanting to get a pension and held that as the reason why it was time to move on. I know I didn't, and I was a firm Baker fan. I lost my faith in the guy for numerous other reasons.
When you have what is now 4 different players going public about the commitment of players and/or just playing for the paycheck, you have a HC issue. Instead, we have forum posters that want the first two banished from the team and have yet to post about the second group. Now we have Bitonio and Cooper going public. How many more players does it take before people start to sit up and take notice. On a side note, you can bet that Bitonio and Cooper didn't decide to come out because of the last game. You can bet that this has been going on a long time, most likely before Cooper even got here and its's getting worse. I guess we'll have to wait and see which player goes public that wakes up the masses over the next 5-weeks.
I agree with you even though I get the feeling you are somehow trying to take it back to baker comments. I don't think many took Bakers comments about some guys just wanting to get a pension and held that as the reason why it was time to move on. I know I didn't, and I was a firm Baker fan. I lost my faith in the guy for numerous other reasons.
Just trying to be clear here.
Thanks Ballpeen for the input. The day that Baker was traded was the day I moved on. That vast majority - hell all of the Baker comments are spurred on by the hatred of Vers who refuses to just move on like the rest of us have. Truthfully, if our Cleveland Browns go 2-15 this year, we'd still get weekly posts from Vers claiming how much better off the team is because Baker is gone and then post some irrational stat trying to prove his point. In reality, my posts are focused on the issues the Browns have being they are 2-4 and not looking good for the 5-game stretch coming up. Read the posts, nearly 100% of the time, Vers will interject some off the wall comment about how much better we are with Baker gone. Who cares! Baker has nothing to do with us being 2-4 after having the 3rd easiest schedule in the NFL. It's not just me either, there are numerous posters that feel the exact same way. I'm too damn old to let some wanna be expert bully me into submission due to his hatred for a particular player. Like it's been posted many times, this was a much more enjoyable forum when the dude was hiding and not posting. As far as the comment goes, "we have forum posters that want the first two banished from the team" that was a direct response to Vers saying that he hopes the Browns bounce JJ for opening his big mouth. The exact same thing he said about Mayfield. I apologize to anybody else that took that as a personal attack - wasn't intended to be that. It was a situation where we now have 4 players past and present claiming the same issue. I think that's a problem that can't be ignored and should be discussed in "Pure Football."
Let's not feed him in his attempts to hijack another thread and pull his personality crap agenda yet again. The thread is about Joe Woods and the Defense. It's not about Baker or posters and their agendas.
This is going to be a tough game for the Browns defense. Lamar is coming off a game in which he made a couple of costly mistakes that helped doom the Ravens. He has spoken about putting on a "show" this week because he and the team are so 'mad.' Also, Baltimore is at home and have blown 3 double digit leads this year. Tough circumstances.
I can't find the chart now, but Milk or Memphis posted a chart that shows a league wide chart w/something to do w/the running game. Baltimore was way out in front and our D was down at the bottom. It's going to be really hard to control Lamar and the Ravens running game. Stack the box and they beat us over the top. Rush too hard and Lamar takes off. Back off and they pound our DTs.
I'm guessing we might use a spy on Lamar. JOK seems suited for that role. He is not a good tackler, but he has the speed and athleticism to stay w/Lamar better than most dudes. Having Jones at the other LBer should help our pass D. He is good in coverage. He'll get deeper drops and that is important. I am not sure how good he will be against the run w/out having a DT who can eat blocks in front of him????
Not having Ward is going to hurt, though. Our safeties are not very good in coverage. Delpit is especially bad. I think we need to play more Cover 3 this game. People like man defense, but having a guy like Delpit in Cover 1 is tough. We saw how easily Henry beat him for a TD last week. Also, not having Ward makes Cover 1 even less desirable.
Clowney could be a big asset if he decides he wants to play this week. Myles is facing more double and triple teams than anyone in the league and no one else can take advantage of that on our D-line. Clowney can change that.
I also think it is important that we take care of the ball on offense. We can't have bad interceptions like we did last week and put our D in unfavorable positions.
Maybe we can talk about the D and not the other crap????
Baker Mayfield is a bad QB. You keep wanting to slant the Browns current struggles to somehow say "see, it wasn't my hero Baker!"
But it was. Baker was a problem here and it has continued to prove out elsewhere.
Stefanski is also a bad head coach. Both can be true and mutually exclusive.
Woods is also a terrible DC.
The problems with the Browns run deep. There are no true leaders amongst the players or coaches. If there were we wouldn't be sitting at 2-4 after the easiest schedule in tbe NFL thus far. We wouldn't have blown the Jets game...a game that the Jets had a .1% chance of winning.
This team is a joke and will continue to be until they make decisions that prioritize winning and the results are consistently good over time. Until then, I suggest making some money by betting against them. I will not be making the same mistake as last week. I will get my bet in on the Ravens this week.
Let's not feed him in his attempts to hijack another thread and pull his personality crap agenda yet again. The thread is about Joe Woods and the Defense. It's not about Baker or posters and their agendas.
RUN FOREST, RUN...
I forgot about you VERS...maybe you can post the results of 6 yr of analytics...PLEASE DO...OR RUN AWAY..
BTW, one of most vocal players pointing fingers, is from the defensive side...you know, JOE WOODS AND THE DEFENSE.
So vers, the challenge has been made...all is fine in Cleveland...or do you believe the Browns players pointing fingers at each other.
COME ON GM or any of you ...SHOW ME THE RESULTS OF 6 YEARS OF ANALYTICS...or run away and pretend everything is great in Cleveland...
I will be glad to, and as soon as Depo is in charge and runs things for six years I will. Till then as I said before just start your posts with "Once upon a time" since you want to keep posting fairy tales.
COME ON GM or any of you ...SHOW ME THE RESULTS OF 6 YEARS OF ANALYTICS...or run away and pretend everything is great in Cleveland...
I will be glad to, and as soon as Depo is in charge and runs things for six years I will. Till then as I said before just start your posts with "Once upon a time" since you want to keep posting fairy tales.
When did Depo take over as CHEIF STRATEGY OFFICER...??
Since Haslam handed the keys to the franchise over to Depodesta in 2016, he has been running the franchise...claiming everyone has to be on board or his ANALYTICS DRIVEN STRATEGY OR IT WILL NOT WORK.
Depo's built his analytics department, front office, the HC and coordinators who had to buy into his analytics philosophy as a condition of their being hired. If anyone in the franchise is not on board the DEPO TRAIN..THEY ARE OUT. Woods greatest protection to insure he remains employed is to convince Depodesta that he is all in on analytics.
Depodesta has been in charge since hired as the Browns CHIEF STRATEGY OFFICER on Jan. 5, 2016...
NOW GM, tell everyone what Depo's record is since Jan. 5, 2016...what is the bottom line in terms of WINS AND LOSSES..?
Put up or run away from REALITY..!!
Someone once said..."you are what your record says you are"...but that does not apply in Cleveland...
I'm not going to try and change your mind about the coaching staff. However, you might want to rethink that "easiest schedule" thing. The Jets and ATL are playing damn good ball. Carolina sucks. Pittsburgh isn't very good, but they just beat TB and they also beat the Bengals. Just sayin'.
Rough week yes and may I add EMBARRASSING!!! Friend of mine is a Pats fan but he shows mercy for me. He came over this past week and just shook his head. I said what happened Sunday happens every week with few exceptions. That was an informative post about the Ravens run game and our run D. You back up your points and I agree, rough game tomorrow.
Why not start an Analytics thread? Can we please keep this thread about Woods and the defense? I am asking nicely. Not being snarky at all.
VERS...if you follow closely you will see that the "analytics philosophy" that the Browns have operating under since 2016 can be traced to the present day issues that plague Woods defense. Analytics influences who the Browns hire as DC and from there the analytics philosophy trickles down to position coaches, the player drafted and free agents hired to execute Woods 'analytics based' defensive strategy.
There is a "trickle down" effect that starts with the man running the show, the man in charge of the Browns overall strategy, that includes the present issues facing Joe Woods and the performance of the BROWNS DEFENSE.
Browns fans have to trace the problems by first finding the "source", then following the layers of management, coordinators and everyone involved in picking the defensive talent and setting the defensive strategy.
Maybe, but who is that guy on the Bills? 49ers? Cowboys? Tampa Bay? Those are top 4 ranked defensive teams this year.
peen, the game has changed a lot. So have the players and how they respond to coaches. It's not like it was back in our day. These guys can't be yelled at. Hell, the Cardinals tried to put in his contract about how much time Murray studies each week.
Not arguing w/you. Just a friendly debate.
Edit: I think those teams I listed have really good players on D. Look at SF w/Bosa and Warner. Cowboys have Parsons. Bucs have guys like White and David. Bills have Von Miller and T. White. Not sure if any of those guys rule the locker room like a Ray Lewis, Mike Singletary, Dick Butkus, etc.
Interesting conversation...
It sounds like the analytics folks don't like the kind of football that the Browns are playing now that the entire Browns program is influenced primarily upon "analytical values"..! This is year 3 of the entire Browns franchise operating according to an owner, upper management and front office, including the draft team, the coaching staff (top to bottom) the Head Coach and Coordinators...ALL operating under a football system based on ANALYTICS.
It sounds as if some would like to see a Browns team, especially on the defensive side to show a bit of aggression and toughness from the Browns ... kind of like the Steelers show...like some players on the Browns roster who show leadership skills along with someone willing to fill the role of an "enforcer" .
Players who exhibit values such as aggressiveness, toughness or are overly emotional by the standards written into the " the Browns Harvard Guidlines" don't last long in Cleveland. Players performing outside the Guidelines as outlined by Haslam's Chief strategy officer will find out who the REAL ENFORCER is of the Browns franchise. Those players who don't meet Depodesta's standards of conduct will find themselves out of Cleveland in a heartbeat.
Analytics, especially on the Browns defensive side, is all about "making nice"...IMO
The problem with analytics is not in the numbers themselves but in the interpretation of those numbers. This can be quite complex but a simple example would be if the NFL 2-point conversion rate was 60% then it would make sense for teams to go for the 2-point conversion after every touchdown. However, if you distill it down further and your team only converts 30% then it would make sense for your team to kick the extra points. But how far do you go with the numbers? What is your teams 2-point conversion rate in a dome on the road? What about at home on wet field? What about at home on a wet field heading toward the dawgpound vs towards the open end?
There are so many variables, which are important? Which are not? How do you weight the value of each variable? Then there is the role of momentum and differences in performance under pressure situations? Up 10 going into the half vs down 1 late in the 4th.
And what about sample size? How many times do you have to try something in a certain situation to get a large enough sample size that your numbers are significant?
I like analytics and think there is certainly value to using it. But you cannot make all your decisions based purely on analytics. JMO
There is no reason for weaver to not step up when Garrett is out after all everyone knows that Berry has done a excellent job at drafting depth at every position.
There is no reason for weaver to not step up when Garrett is out after all everyone knows that Berry has done a excellent job at drafting depth at every position.
Weaver? Curtis Weaver is no longer on the team, and he wasn't drafted if that's who you're referring to.
When did Depo take over as CHEIF STRATEGY OFFICER...??
January 5, 2016
Now if you would be so kind as to answer these simple questions.
When did Depo become the General Manager? When did he become the Head Coach? When did he ever make a draft pick? When did his opinion mean more than any of our scouts?
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Since Haslam handed the keys to the franchise over to Depodesta in 2016, he has been running the franchise...claiming everyone has to be on board or his ANALYTICS DRIVEN STRATEGY OR IT WILL NOT WORK.
Oh please tell me the Fairy Tale about the Three Little pigs, or Cinderella... I'm getting tired of you repeating the same lame one about Depo and the Browns.
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Depo's built his analytics department, front office, the HC and coordinators who had to buy into his analytics philosophy as a condition of their being hired. If anyone in the franchise is not on board the DEPO TRAIN..THEY ARE OUT. Woods greatest protection to insure he remains employed is to convince Depodesta that he is all in on analytics.
More Fairy tales.
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NOW GM, tell everyone what Depo's record is since Jan. 5, 2016...what is the bottom line in terms of WINS AND LOSSES..?
It's 0-0 since he does not play, draft players, Coach, or make any roster decisions anywhere but in your own mind.
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Put up or run away from REALITY..!!
There I put up, now can you please return to reality and stop making crap up in your own mind. Your embarrassing yourself.
Problems in the locker room with players openly questioning other players...
COME ON GM or any of you ...SHOW ME THE RESULTS OF 6 YEARS OF ANALYTICS...or run away and pretend everything is great in Cleveland...
Brandon Beane has been beefing up the Buffalo Bills analytics department since he was hired in 2017. How's it working for them?
Analytics is two things: 1. A tool that you are either good at using or you aren't. 2. An easy scapegoat to blame your problems on when things aren't clicking because none of us really know how the Browns use it.
Problems in the locker room with players openly questioning other players...
COME ON GM or any of you ...SHOW ME THE RESULTS OF 6 YEARS OF ANALYTICS...or run away and pretend everything is great in Cleveland...
Brandon Beane has been beefing up the Buffalo Bills analytics department since he was hired in 2017. How's it working for them?
Analytics is two things: 1. A tool that you are either good at using or you aren't. 2. An easy scapegoat to blame your problems on when things aren't clicking because none of us really know how the Browns use it.
I thought the defense played better yesterday. They pressured Lamar. They didn't allow him to go off. The Ravens passing game was pretty much shut down. Our terrible DTs were exposed too many times against the run and that really hurt. However, Woods called a good game. We often forced them into 3rd and long situation and we ran creative defenses w/7-8 guys back that looked like an umbrella formation that was effective. We desperately need two solid DTs. I thought Woods did a good job yesterday.
It was the best our defense played since week 3 for sure. You can’t do much better against Lamar than we did. Sadly, still took the L.
I thought special teams were the difference yesterday (if we are taking away the officials). Their punter flipped the field twice in key spots. We had some poor return choices, penalties, and of course they have Tucker … and our kicking game sucked
I thought the defense played better yesterday. They pressured Lamar. They didn't allow him to go off. The Ravens passing game was pretty much shut down. Our terrible DTs were exposed too many times against the run and that really hurt. However, Woods called a good game. We often forced them into 3rd and long situation and we ran creative defenses w/7-8 guys back that looked like an umbrella formation that was effective. We desperately need two solid DTs. I thought Woods did a good job yesterday.
I thought the D played well
Wright has a motor on him, saw him fall, get up and keep pursuing and was in on the tackle
Good points about Thomas and Wright. I thought both made multiple good plays. I want to start a Game Recap thread in the Game Day forum that is just about football and none of the agenda stuff. The Post Game thread is so, so bad. It would be nice if some of you guys who like to talk "football" would post on the Recap thread, if I do start it. There is a lot to talk about in yesterday's game. Your keen eye certainly identified Thomas and Wright. I was thinking the same thing about both guys.
Watch this play. This isn't about scheme. It's about four guys not doing their job. Bryan and Thomas are easily sealed to the inside. Far too easy. JOK clearly fills the wrong gap. Looks to me that he doesn't want to fight through the block and that he tried to dart inside. Huge mistake on his part. JJ--the mouth--doesn't even try to make the tackle. I think I would trade him before the deadline. Not sure if there will be any takers, though.
Sure looked like it. And he is the one running his mouth about other guys.
I pointed out the same thing last week ago and a month before that. JJ3 has been playing "not to get hurt" the entire season. But he sure had the ear of his coaching staff, always managing to say the right things but rarely played as well as he talked. Stefanski and Joe Woods just loved the game J3 talked...imo, the guy is a bit of a 'con man'.
He's been bad. He was really late in providing deep help on the deep pass Emerson gave up down the sideline, as well. Delpit is worse in pass coverage, but I think he really tries. He sells out in the run game, but is just lost as a pass defender. He is so slow to recognize things develop. I can live w/a guy like Delpit because he is at least trying hard. However, JJ runs his mouth and doesn't back it up w/his play on the field. This is part of a larger article about guys who might be traded.
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S John Johnson III
Johnson III is the only player on this list that has remaining years left on his contract beyond 2022. While Johnson III has one year left on his contract with the Browns after signing a big contract during free agency two summers ago, the train is too far off the tracks.
He appears checked out, unwilling to initiate contact and fill gaps, and has been worthy of the criticism he is hearing (and responding to) from the fanbase on social media.
The Browns would only eat $3.75 million in dead cap space to trade Johnson now, which is the same that they would eat if they released him with a post-June 1 designation this upcoming offseason. If they want him out of the locker room now, a deal could be made rather than waiting to release him in the offseason.
Getting another team to bite, however, might be the more difficult task.
#58 was caved down by what appears to be TE?Unacceptable for a dlinemen. #20 has to close that down,instead he gets pushed almost to the sideline. I have always said JOKe is a liability vs the run.Players are too fast for a linebacker to run around a block and still make a play. JJ is either not doing what he's coached to do,or,well you know. four players performing poorly on 1 play.That's not the NFL,it's closer to Jr.high level.
I didnot imply that. #58 getting blown up would be on him,not the coaches. Ward has been pathetic against the run all season,at least he set the edge. JOKe shouldn't be on the field on running downs. JJ has checked out. Any condemnation of the coaches would be that these guys should be on the bench,but I highly doubt there's anyone worth a damn to replace them.
Yeah, the scheme and alignment were fine. Clearly, they had guys in place to defend that play.
I agree w/your analysis other than Newsome. He was using the outside/in technique, where his outside shoulder is protecting the boundary. It looks bad on the video, but he is doing what he should be doing. He isn't there to necessarily make the tackle. His job is to ensure that the ball carrier not reach the sidelines and run free.
The only way I would give JJ a bit of a pass is if he was supposed to cover the inside gap to prevent the cutback. It sure looks to me that JOK should have attacked the outside shoulder of the blocker, but he tried to skirt inside. He is not very physical. Still, JJ could have shown better effort.
Good question and good point about a big part of what ails us. Having a great FS who is good in pass defense is beyond huge. Tough, box safeties are a dime a dozen. Probably more plentiful than even good RBs. Trouble is, they can't cover. Having a FS that provide support from sideline to sideline is rare. You mentioned Ed Reed. Dude was awesome at diagnosing plays and making huge plays in the passing game. Troy P was more of gimmick player. A great player, but not a true FS. Watch Fitz for the Steelers play. Dude baits guys into throws. Covers a ton of ground. I have been saying for years that we should make a FS who can be great in coverage a huge priority.
Probably Don Rodgers in 1985. Sadly, that was his only year as he passed away in, I believe in April of 1986. That play You posted Vers on the Ravens TD run showed how our guys are out of position and 1 or 2 not giving there all. SAD!!!
Homes, I don't think they were out of position. I think one got physically dominated, another filled the wrong gap, and a third showed a lack of effort. The defensive call was fine.
Doesn't matter what players did or didn't do when the same things keep happening. At the end of the day, Woods, and SKI are responsible. Period. This is the exact same crap the Woods' D did last year until game 7 or 8 iirc.
With all due respect, why in God's name would you take OCD's analysis on a football discussion over mine? I know exactly what happened on that play. He doesn't and is just pushing an agenda.
I didnot imply that. #58 getting blown up would be on him,not the coaches. Ward has been pathetic against the run all season,at least he set the edge. JOKe shouldn't be on the field on running downs. JJ has checked out. Any condemnation of the coaches would be that these guys should be on the bench,but I highly doubt there's anyone worth a damn to replace them.
I know you didn't imply that.
Regardless of whether players should be on the bench or not - when you run one play and multiple players out of position, and that is a theme we have seen a few times this year, I think Coaching is a massive part of the problem. And if it's only one player repeatedly out of position or taking bad angles or slow to react ... then him being on the field is a coaching issue too.
Which is probably a good reason to consider replacing him at the end of the season.
Some people refuse to accept that when the same problem rears its ugly head week after week that there's something wrong at the top. This same D played pretty well last year after a slow start and now, until the last game has played very poorly. Last year made it plain that the players can perform given the right circumstances. Now with mainly the same roster they have been laying eggs. We have obvious holes that people at the top have refused to fill. We have talent that somehow it appears Woods can't seem to use to their strengths.
The entire "everything is fine at the top" scenario rings very hollow. And as you can see, if you don't take his word for it that's a "you" problem.
People can say the players aren't doing their job. But whose job is it to motivate them? They can say they need interior DL help. But whose job was it to fill those holes? Everyone on this board knew that going into the season. They don't have a S that can cover. Why didn't the coaching staff and FO know that and address it? Who drafted and signed the players that were supposed to fill that role?
Passing the buck and pretending "there's nothing to see here" seems to be a common theme with some. It's as if they think people don't have eyes.
With all due respect, why in God's name would you take OCD's analysis on a football discussion over mine? I know exactly what happened on that play. He doesn't and is just pushing an agenda.
Why be so insulting? He didn't say anything about that play. Apples and oranges.
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Doesn't matter what players did or didn't do when the same things keep happening. At the end of the day, Woods, and SKI are responsible. Period. This is the exact same crap the Woods' D did last year until game 7 or 8 iirc.
But, history has proven that in some way, we will invent a new way to lose.
Anyone agree, or maybe seen this before??????
I'm not sure, but I think we may be done inventing new ways to lose. We *may* have covered them all.... I just keep seeing, at most, new twists on all of the ways we've lost before. Even going back to some of the crazier ones back to like 2002.
With all due respect, why in God's name would you take OCD's analysis on a football discussion over mine? I know exactly what happened on that play. He doesn't and is just pushing an agenda.
Why be so insulting? He didn't say anything about that play. Apples and oranges.
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Doesn't matter what players did or didn't do when the same things keep happening. At the end of the day, Woods, and SKI are responsible. Period. This is the exact same crap the Woods' D did last year until game 7 or 8 iirc.
Thanks, Fate, had no idea I was being attacked for this nonsense. And you are right, I was just expressing what I think should be obvious to anyone who actually watches our games. And I also don't recall asking people to believe me over the board's self-declared football guru. I'm not happy with the team this year, any more than I expect most of you are, but nobody should confuse that with me pushing an agenda. They simply stink, and Joe Woods is at the center of that stench at this moment. Anyone arguing differently may have an agenda, but I do not. I don't want Woods fired mid-season because I still think the D, as in previous years under Woods, will finish strong.
Vers, I have no idea why you have your panties in such a wad over me saying this, but that's a you problem, not an us problem bro.
This is a REDIRECT from the thread titled " Re: Browns possibly looking to trade Kareem Hunt and Greedy"..
SOMEONE took that thread in a different direction with the following comment..
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No, our DTs don't fit Woods 4-2-5 defense. It's the one spot in that particular defense that requires big, space-eating, block-occupying, guys.
Other board members chimed in with their opinions, pointing out that Woods and GM Berry have had 3 years to draft the talent Woods wanted to man his DT position for the 4-2-5 defense. All of the DTs that GM Berry added via the draft and free agency, over the last 3 years have been smallish, 290 lb DTs who have a hard time stopping the run. The Browns currently rank 24th in defense vs the run.
How the hell did the Browns GM draft DTs who did not fit Woods defense.?...OR....did GM Berry draft and add the FA talent that Woods wanted..?
Let's bring that discussion over here in the "Joe Woods and his defense thread"...
But if are talking about as a DC, there's no way he'd take it (nor would it be offered).
Maybe he'd come back as an NFL head coach one last time time for one last payday from a team willing to offer it before his retirement, but we're not going to offer it.
Stefanski not going anywhere untill after the 2023 season, and any DC change will be a young "upcomer" as they say . A few names will be mentioned on this board for the remainder of the season.
Not saying any of that is right or wrong. Just imo.
Gregg Williams is abrasive and an ego-maniac. He was fired from the Jets after one of the worst defensive calls in the history of the league:
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Gasesaid he fired Williams because of the defensive call he made late in the game that ended in disaster.
"I obviously wasn’t happy about that call," Gase said. "That was a heartbreaking way for our guys to lose the game, for that to happen in that situation, just we can’t have that happen."
The Jets were up 28-24 with 13 seconds left and the Raiders facing third-and-10 from the Jets' 46. The only thing that could hurt them was a touchdown.
And yet rather than protect the end zone, Williams called a "cover zero" blitz. Basically, every player who wasn't assigned to cover a potential receiver went after the quarterback. That left his young cornerbacks with no defensive help. And disaster struck, when Raiders receiver Henry Ruggs III burned undrafted rookie Lamar Jackson for a touchdown.
Jets safety Marcus Maye was openly critical of the call after the game. And while Gase said that had nothing to do with the decision to fire Williams, Maye certainly wasn't the only one who felt that way about the decision.
And Gase was surely worried that other players had lost confidence in the defensive coordinator after such a questionable decision.
Also, Jabril Peppers can't cover his shadow. We already have that guy in Delpit.
I say no way to both.
If Woods gets fired, let's bring in a proven guy like Fangio or a hot-shot, young guy who is being tutored by one of the league's top d-coordinators.
I definitely think we should upgrade our safeties, but let's find one who can actual cover the field in pass defense. Hard hitting, run defending safeties are a dime a dozen.
I'm afraid AZ is right...no one is going to come to Browns as a DC without the approval of the "analytics boys"...and that includes Stefanski. Williams is a football guy, therefore you can cross him out.
Gregg Williams is abrasive and an ego-maniac. He was fired from the Jets after one of the worst defensive calls in the history of the league
Also, Jabril Peppers can't cover his shadow. We already have that guy in Delpit.
I say no way to both.
If Woods gets fired, let's bring in a proven guy like Fangio or a hot-shot, young guy who is being tutored by one of the league's top d-coordinators.
I definitely think we should upgrade our safeties, but let's find one who can actual cover the field in pass defense. Hard hitting, run defending safeties are a dime a dozen.
Unless I'm wrong, Woods was selected by Stefanski to be a part of his staff when hired by the Browns. Saying that, one would assume that if a move was made at DC, it would in coordination with Stefanski wishes for the position. The amount of leeway that a DC or OC has on a team is dependent on the hierarchy structure setup by the said HC. It gets implied here that Woods is the failure part of the equation, but I question with Stefanski's grip on the offense - it would seem highly unlikely that he doesn't have complete control over Woods too. IMHO, I just don't see a personality like Stefanski allowing a DC to go rouge nor would he allow the FO the opportunity to appoint someone to his staff that he didn't have control over in his hierarchy structure.
In February, head coach Kevin Stefanski shuffled his coaching staff by assigning new roles to five assistant coaches and adding two new assistants to his staff. Of those moves, Stephen Bravo-Brown moved from defensive quality control coach to assistant of special teams, and the two new guys were Jordan Thomas, who was hired to be the new be assistant defensive line coach after spending time as defensive line coach at San Diego State, and Jeff Anderson, who will be the new defensive quality control coach. Finally, the Browns confirmed that Chris Kiffin was returning to the team to be defensive line coach for a third consecutive season. Obviously at this stage of the season in 2022, these moves have backfired big time.
The point is that Stefanski made changes to the defensive coaching staff in early 2022 and they are not working out well. Bouncing Woods at seasons end would give Stefanski another opportunity for improvement but could and probably would have a domino effect with the other coaching positions. I don't believe for a minute that Stefanski would allow the FO to make that selection for him. Of course, the new DC would also want a say in his/her staff selections meaning a huge overhaul on the defense. This is even before we get into the player needs.
Finally, the bigger issue could be how the Haslam's react if the Browns go 6-11 or worse. That would be a 3-year heavy investment into a coaching staff that over those 3-years couldn't deliver a winning record. A 6-11 record would give Stefanski a 3-year career total of 26-26 with each year getting progressively worse and no playoffs for the last 2-years. Those feeling confident that Stefanski's position is safe must not have been watching the Haslam's the last decade. Excuses aside (I'm certain there are many), a nonwinning record over 3-years is what it is - NOT GOOD.
This post is meant to be educational and is not influenced by any sort of agenda. I think the safety position[s] are often misunderstood by many fans and media types. There is huge difference between a really good FS and a really good SS. Today's defenses have blurred the lines a bit due to the volume of pass plays per game, thereby putting safeties who aren't very good in coverage being asked to do just that.
I have said that in the box safeties who are good against the run are a dime a dozen. Peppers was an example of that. TJ Ward is another. Delpit actually fits that description.
When I refer to "coverage" or natural free safeties, I am talking about guys who can not only cover a guy one-on-one, but more importantly, provide help to corners and LBers. Ed Reed is a great example of a guy who could recognize plays quickly and get to where the ball was going to help his corner out. Earl Thomas was another. The late Sean Taylor was another guy who was great in coverage. He could also lay the wood. As great as the former Steeler Troy P [can't spell it] was, he wasn't a true FS/guy who was good in coverage.
I'll post an article that ranks the top 10 safeties in the league today. Please pay special attention to the coverage grades of each player. I personally don't think James is as good in coverage as their rating suggests, but this is just an example of how different safeties have different strengths. There are a ton of really tough, fast, aggressive safeties that will come up and hit guys hard and can offer really good run support. However, there are very few guys who can cover the field and help others out w/their coverage in zone defenses and even in Cover 1, which is a man coverage w/the exception of one guy. That guy is the FS who is playing zone and providing deep --and sometimes intermediate--help.
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2022 NFL season's early top-10 safeties: Derwin James at No. 1; rookies paying immediate dividends
Published: Sep 29, 2022 at 02:45 PM Updated: Sep 30, 2022 at 12:40 AM NextGenStats_NoShield_600x600px The Next Gen Stats Analytics Team
Each week of the 2022 NFL season, the Next Gen Stats analytics team will present a different Position Power Ranking, meant to spotlight the top performances among a specific group of players. This week, we've assembled a list of the top 10 safeties heading into Week 4.
Before we dive in, though, a note on our methodology: To help create quantifiable rankings, we have devised a formula that yields a Next Gen Stats percentile score, which measures how a player is performing relative to his peers. The formula uses each player's percentile score across a series of key metrics to create one composite score, indicating which players at that position performed best. We will lean on this formula to inform our rankings when applicable.
NOTE: Player percentiles are based on components such as each player's tackling, coverage and pass-rush abilities. The metric and overall scores are based on each player's performance in Weeks 1-3.
Rank 1 Derwin James
Los Angeles Chargers · Year 5 Play-time percentage: 99 Tackling score: 95 Coverage score: 86 Pass-rush score: 90 OVERALL SCORE: 94
The highest-paid safety in the league brings one of the more unique skill sets to the sport. James wears the green dot for the Chargers' defense (a role typically reserved for middle linebackers), making him responsible for relaying head coach Brandon Staley's play calls to the rest of the defense. A versatile chess piece who can align all over the field, James has moved into a more traditional safety role since Staley took over in 2021 (52 percent of snaps aligned at deep safety, compared to 21 percent in his first two seasons). Nonetheless, James has still been extremely effective as a pass rusher under Staley, generating 12 pressures (fourth among defensive backs) on just 40 blitzes since 2021. The rangy playmaker also leads all DBs with 56 defensive stops (tackles on plays resulting in negative expected points added for the offense) over that time period. And that's not to take anything away from his coverage abilities: James has allowed just 32 yards on 13 targets this season.
Since taking over as the Cowboys' defensive coordinator in 2021, Dan Quinn has used nickel personnel (five defensive backs) at the second-highest rate in the NFL (79 percent of plays). Given that Quinn is also one of the last defensive play callers majoring in single-high shells (63 percent of plays since '21, third in NFL), that means the strong safety will often line up in the box. This year, Wilson has filled that role for the Cowboys, aligning in the box almost as frequently (41 percent of the time) as he does at deep safety (44 percent). The fourth-year pro has taken advantage of his proximity to the ball, leading all safeties with four QB pressures on just 11 blitzes. Availability has been the only weak point in Wilson's NFL career, but if he can stay healthy, opposing quarterbacks will have to account for another emerging threat on Dallas' aggressive defense.
Donovan Wilson lays the lumber on Daniel Jones for fifth Cowboys sack of game Rank 3 Talanoa Hufanga
San Francisco 49ers · Year 2 Play-time percentage: 100 Tackling score: 92 Coverage score: 93 Pass-rush score: 61 OVERALL SCORE: 93
The second-year safety out of USC has burst onto the scene as one of the early breakout stars of the 2022 campaign. Hufanga showed enough in his rookie season for the 49ers to feel comfortable letting Jaquiski Tartt walk in free agency, and the youngster has seamlessly slotted into the starting lineup. With a blend of speed, football IQ and relentless physicality, the 2021 fifth-rounder is yet another diamond in the rough San Francisco uncovered in the late rounds of the draft. No one doubted Hufanga's abilities as a heat-seeking missile coming into the draft. He has lived up to that reputation in the NFL, posting twice as many run stuffs (six) as any other DB this season. But it's his development in coverage that has rocketed him into the top three of this list. Hufanga has allowed just one reception for 9 yards on six targets this season, with an interception and three passes defensed, including this assist to teammate Tashaun Gipson.
We highlighted Pitre's versatility when he was featured a couple weeks ago in our piece on the top-10 rookie debuts, and he's continued to be used as a Swiss Army Knife in the Texans' revamped secondary. The rookie has not missed a snap yet in his young career, splitting time between deep safety (46 percent of snaps) and in the box (37 percent). Pitre has made plays all over the field, as he's currently tied for the second-most stops (11) among all defensive backs, trailing only Talanoa Hufanga (14). The Baylor product had his best game yet in Week 3, making five defensive stops and showing off his ballhawking skills with two interceptions. Despite being one of two winless teams through Week 3, Houston looks to have landed two cornerstones in its secondary with Pitre and CB Derek Stingley Jr.
The Steelers reset the position's market this offseason, making Fitzpatrick the highest-paid safety in the league -- well, for a couple months, until the Chargers broke the bank for Derwin James. Safe to say neither team has any regrets about these investments. Fitzpatrick is the truest free safety on this list so far, lining up deep on 85 percent of his snaps. Despite aligning at an average depth of 12.4 yards, Fitzpatrick has made 10 defensive stops this season (including a league-high seven when aligned as a deep safety). But the two-time All-Pro's most impressive skill is his ability to process information in split seconds on the back end of the defense. That elite awareness in coverage has translated to Fitzpatrick breaking up a pass or intercepting the ball on 21.8 percent of targets since entering the league in 2018, the third-highest ballhawk rate (percentage of targets as nearest defender resulting in a pass defensed or INT) in the NFL during that span (min. 150 targets). Fitzpatrick has taken an interception to the house in four of the five years of his career, including the first pass faced by the Steelers this season.
Can't-Miss Play: Minkah Fitzpatrick pick-sixes Burrow on QB's first pass of '22 Rank 6 Xavier Woods
Woods is on his third team in three seasons, but he's playing his best football in Year 1 with the Panthers. Woods and teammate Jeremy Chinn have each aligned as deep safeties on more than 65 percent of their snaps, forming a dynamic duo that has helped Carolina allow fewer than 20 points in each of its last two games. And Woods' impact on his new roster has been felt all over the field. As a pass rusher, his three QB pressures this season trail only Donovan Wilson's four among safeties. In the run game, Woods has a pair of run stuffs (rushes stopped for no gain or negative yards), tied for fifth-most among all defensive backs. And in coverage, only 44.4 percent of targets with Woods as the nearest defender have been completed this season, tied for the eighth-lowest mark among safeties with at least five targets.
Rank 7 Richie Grant
Atlanta Falcons · Year 2 Play-time percentage: 99 Tackling score: 87 Coverage score: 80 Pass-rush score: 54 OVERALL SCORE: 86
After a year of coming off the bench as a rookie, Grant -- a 2021 Next Gen Stats Draft Score "sleeper" -- assumed a starting role in Year 2. His impact in the passing game has been tremendous, helping the Falcons overcome the losses of S Duron Harmon and CB Fabian Moreau. Grant, who has aligned as a deep safety on 72 percent of snaps and as a slot CB on 18 percent, has allowed a mere 26.7 passer rating when targeted as the nearest defender in 2022. His ball skills have also been on display, as his ballhawk rate of 30.0 percent ranks third among all players with 10-plus targets as the nearest defender, trailing only LB Devin Lloyd and S Marcus Williams. The Falcons have cleaned house from top to bottom recently, with a new general manager, head coach and starting QB all coming in since the start of 2021. Grant appears to be one of the new faces that is here to stay.
Rank 8 Mike Edwards
Tampa Bay Buccaneers · Year 4 Play-time percentage: 100 Tackling score: 92 Coverage score: 74 Pass-rush score: 51 OVERALL SCORE: 85
Edwards typically came off the bench in 2020 and 2021, as the starting safety duo of Antoine Winfield Jr. and Jordan Whitehead led a Buccaneers defense that secured 24 regular season wins and a Super Bowl title. But with the latter of those two relocating to the Jets in free agency this past offseason, the onus was on Edwards to prove he was worthy of filling a starting spot. So far, he has done that and more. Edwards has aligned in various spots this season (56 percent of snaps at deep safety, 14 percent as slot CB, 16 percent as off-ball LB) and succeeded in all of them. His 11 defensive stops are tied for second-most among all defensive backs, trailing only Talanoa Hufanga's 14. But Edwards has also made an impact through the air, as offenses targeting him as the nearest defender have a total of -8.9 expected points added in 2022 (third-lowest among safeties, behind only Minkah Fitzpatrick and Eddie Jackson). The Buccaneers boast the NFL's No. 1 scoring defense in 2022, allowing a mere 9.0 points per game, and Edwards' emergence is an inarguable reason why.
Rank 9 Jaquan Brisker
Chicago Bears · Year 1 Play-time percentage: 100 Tackling score: 74 Coverage score: 87 Pass-rush score: 32 OVERALL SCORE: 84
How are the Bears 2-1 despite only having completed 23 passes through three games (19 fewer than the next-closest team)? It's all about the defense, and the addition of Brisker -- a 2022 Next Gen Stats Draft Score "sleeper" -- has been a major component of that. Brisker appeared on our rundown of the top-10 rookie debuts due to his pass-coverage prowess, and that trend has not slowed down by any means since then. Only 30.0 percent of targets with Brisker as the nearest defender have been completed this season, the lowest rate among any player at any position with 10-plus targets. And even when the ball does get completed, Brisker's sure tackling helps limit the big plays, as his 1.9 yards/target allowed as the nearest defender is tied for first (with Chargers CB Bryce Callahan) among all players with 10-plus targets. Brisker has played all over the field (51.3 percent of snaps aligned as deep safety, 13.8 percent as slot CB, 15.3 percent as off-ball LB), and he has been the definition of "instant impact" for one of the league's most surprising teams thus far.
The Dolphins are known for blitzing their defensive backs. Holland and fellow Miami safety Brandon Jones are the faces at the forefront of that effort. Jones tends to line up all over the field, while Holland has aligned at deep safety on 82.8 percent of snaps this season, but both routinely make their presence felt in the offensive backfield. Holland's 14 QB pressures since 2021 rank second among safeties, behind only Jones' 19. Holland's four sacks over the same span are also second among safeties, behind Jones' six. As it pertains to 2022 specifically, Holland has a 16.7 percent sack rate, tied for first (with Jeremy Chinn) among all defensive backs with at least five pass rushes. Holland also makes a profound impact when he stays in pass coverage. The second-year pro has three passes defensed this season, and his 50.0 percent ballhawk rate is tied for second among all players with at least five targets, trailing only Texans DB Desmond King.
UPDATE: Holland had five tackles, one run stuff and allowed zero catches (one target) on 33 coverage snaps versus the Bengals on Thursday.
HONORABLE MENTION: Budda Baker, Arizona Cardinals; Eddie Jackson, Chicago Bears; John Johnson, Cleveland Browns.
-- Keegan Abdoo, Mike Band and Cole Jacobson contributed to this piece.
Am I the only one who finds it odd that Vers has a huge issue with "Gregg Williams is abrasive and an ego-maniac".... But doesn't have an issue with a player who signed a long term contract only to refuse to honor it only a couple of months later and then was found to be a sexual predator? I find his priority list to be amazing. Or should I say his warped priority list.
Am I the only one who finds it odd that Vers has a huge issue with "Gregg Williams is abrasive and an ego-maniac".... But doesn't have an issue with a player who signed a long term contract only to refuse to honor it only a couple of months later and then was found to be a sexual predator? I find his priority list to be amazing. Or should I say his warped priority list.
Well I know for a fact Greg Williams had a better record with less talent than ks in 2022.
It's my opinion, but I'd be shocked if anyone without an agenda disagreed.... I'm 100% sure we'd have a better record this year with GW as HC rather than KS. . . . Greg didn't beat himself and his team played disciplined and with energy/passion.
Mangini is the guy you need as long as he has a good OC. This team had more discipline with him than any coach since Marty. That is if you want to bring back a former coach.
I have no idea if the Browns would have more W''s with GW than Stefanski. It would be difficult with all things considered to believe they would have less W's with GW.
But then I'm not a fire Stefnaski guy. Watson will be the one to make that call.
But if are talking about as a DC, there's no way he'd take it (nor would it be offered).
Maybe he'd come back as an NFL head coach one last time time for one last payday from a team willing to offer it before his retirement, but we're not going to offer it.
Stefanski not going anywhere untill after the 2023 season, and any DC change will be a young "upcomer" as they say . A few names will be mentioned on this board for the remainder of the season.
Not saying any of that is right or wrong. Just imo.
I agree Stefanski isn't going anywhere until after 2023. Which is a shame. He's incompetent as a head coach. He's Matt Nagy.
If he doesn't hire an aggressive, experienced DC in the off season, that will tell you what you need to know about his ego. If it truly is some young up and comer how does thar help the Browns? It helps Stefanski because he won't feel threatened but how does that help the Browns?
Until the Browns get a FO and coaching staff that prioritize winning above all else, the Browns will continue to be a laughing stock.
Just a freaking question - who does Woods work for? Who the hell is Woods boss? Who is the person responsible for the defense when it stinks to high heaven - Woods or the HC of the team? Quit trying to play the blame game on posters who realize that the real issue with the Browns is and has been the HC. It's his coaches he selected, it's his approval of the scheme, it's his decision on the players, IT'S STAFANSKI's RESPONSIBILITY! Surprise, we are talking about Woods and the defense!
The only place analytics is hurting the Browns is in game. Stefanski has no feel for emotion, momentum, confidence, etc. He's a robot.
I had a nagging bad feeling about Stefanski before the season, and it has all come true.
The Browns need a real head coach.
I would take Flores in a heartbeat.
rish...'analytics' are used for everything the Browns do. My whole reason for bringing analytics up in this thread..how do folks believe the Browns defense ended up with DTs who are all similar...the reason is the Browns select DTs to fit a pre-established mold that is primarily based on SPARQ and 40 times, IMO.
How do the Browns end up with LBs who are also on the undersized side and the Browns Safeties are not much bigger than the average Corners by NFL standards.
HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN...you ever ask yourself why Joe Woods defense has trouble stopping the run? or why Joe Woods defense ranks 30th in "the most important defensive stat"..? Joe Woods defense gives up 26.6 pts per game, ranking 30th in the NFL.
HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN..?
...The Browns draft team puts a heavy emphasis on the use SPARQ scores and 40 times to base their draft picks on... SPARQ stands for Speed, Power, Agility, Reaction and Quickness. What kind of player is going to have the best SPARQ scores, especially in the areas of Speed, Agility, Reaction and Quickness...those big run stopping DTs and LBs are not going to score as well using SPARQ as those DTs LBs who are on the smaller side and the same applies for run stopping Safeties.
So, how did the Browns and Joe Woods end up with undersized players who struggle to stop the run and give up nearly the most points in the NFL (ranking 30th)..?
Let's hear it...how did this happen to the Browns defense..?
When you say "has been" I have to correct you. The biggest issue with the Browns was Baker. That one is solved.
The next issue, and I was hoping this wouldn't be the case, is Stefanski. He's clearly in over his head and has gotten worse with each season.
I don't want Berry to be an issue. I want to believe the competence we thought we were finally getting with Berry and Stefanski has some truth to it. But now that the front office is blaming the players and not the coaches has me concerned. We as fans know the season is over, but the organization shouldn't feel that way. So how on earth does trading Kareem Hunt help? What kind of message does that send to the team? The players know their coaches suck.
And I'm not absolving the players. We have the softest star players in the league. And no leaders amongst the bunch. But we are losing games weekly due to the coaching and the players not buying in.
rish...maybe you didn't notice...the discussion is based on this seasons...the stats are from this season...the defensive roster I cited was from this season...and there is no one on the roster by the name you mentioned...
Try to catch up and stay current with the conversation...try to think in terms the Browns being 2-5 with a defense Joe Woods built using Analytics.
When you say "has been" I have to correct you. The biggest issue with the Browns was Baker. That one is solved.
The next issue, and I was hoping this wouldn't be the case, is Stefanski. He's clearly in over his head and has gotten worse with each season.
I don't want Berry to be an issue. I want to believe the competence we thought we were finally getting with Berry and Stefanski has some truth to it. But now that the front office is blaming the players and not the coaches has me concerned. We as fans know the season is over, but the organization shouldn't feel that way. So how on earth does trading Kareem Hunt help? What kind of message does that send to the team? The players know their coaches suck.
And I'm not absolving the players. We have the softest star players in the league. And no leaders amongst the bunch. But we are losing games weekly due to the coaching and the players not buying in.
I respectfully disagree because if what you claim to have been the biggest issue was actually the issue then we wouldn't and absolutely shouldn't be sitting at 2-5. According to your statement, that issue has been solved which would lead one to think we should be battling it out for a home field playoff position with the talent the team possesses. Unless I missed something, we're currently battling it out for the #1 pick in next year's draft which we traded away. That said, I have to respectfully disagree with your opinion because the current results prove that statement wrong.
That's not true, and I won't attempt to explain it to you beyond this post. Both Baker and Stefanski can be bad. Most of the world except for a few on here knew Baker was a bad QB, and it has played out exactly as predicted on another team where he is now a backup and will be fighting for a second contract to stay in the league. He did that all on his own without any help from Stefanski. As a matter of fact Stefanski got him a nice $30m/year contract extension from the Browns that he passed up because he thought he was better than he was. Stefanski actually helped Baker.
Stefanski has his own issues independent of Baker. One has nothing to do with the other.
Honestly there is merit to the idea that if Baker was the biggest problem that now he's gone The team should be better. There's also logic to the fact that Baker played badly last year. Wasn't a solution, and has played even worse in Charlotte.
With that said, the team this year is looking worse than ever under stefanski. Someone to point to the offense as being KS responsibility and that is appearing statistically above average. Reality is as a head coach You're responsible for all phases of the team.
I have no idea how Baker is going to do for us of his career. Rhule got fired and the Panthers are a different team. Maybe it was Baker maybe it was Rhule. Maybe it was both. I doubt KS is being removed and we'll see if there is more of the same ineptness when Watson plays and next season ....
Last night, I thought Jones and Taki duo gave us the most fundamentally sound, disciplined, and productive set of linebackers that we've had on the field all year.
I also think that Woods had a great game last night as a coach. I really liked when he took out the DTs when Cinci had to pass to catch up and inserted Wright and Thomas to go along w/Myles and Clowney. Four DEs in together helped improve the pass rush. He also brought more LBer blitzes than normal.
I don't think you can point to the secondary and the run game being so porous until last night on one player.
Agreed. Before the Bengals game there were multiple issues. Players, scheme, fit, communication...
Last night was what we all expected to see this year from game 1... And if it takes a couple games to sync up, maybe game 3. Crying shame we've lost winnable games and waited to be 2-5 before finding form. Not ready to say everything is fixed - that performance last night needs to be repeated every game the rest of the season ... Even when we get beat or the offense struggles, need to see the same energy and aggressive adjustment and play/scheme.
The Browns LBer play was much better last night with Jones and Takitaki playing. We can only hope that the Browns coaching staff will give these two more opportunities to show what they can do.
two thingz A. How did Taki ... I mean what exactly did JOK do to kick Taki Taki out of the starting lineup?
B. if nothing elze ... The mizunderztandingz on the pazz coverage disappeared when D. Ward had to leave the lineup for injury.
so, why couldn't anyone find out who would make the bezt defense out there? I mean, why couldn't they/ anyone find out and decide, to play .. Taki Taki, and A.J. Green, ... az ztarterz? at the beginning of the year.
and Imagine, how useful a coach could find JOK coming off the bench? in zo many rolez.
The Browns LBer play was much better last night with Jones and Takitaki playing. We can only hope that the Browns coaching staff will give these two more opportunities to show what they can do.
The broadcast I heard azaid, that Kunaczyk went in on the early downz Izt and 2nd downz.
So the defense has been playing better the past two weeks ... and possibly the biggest contributing factor in that could be that we have been less predictable with our coverages (playing different coverages too) and our pass rush / blitzing ... all this while Ward has been out and our LBs' unit has been depleted.
-->Could this mean that Kevin Stefanski is having more of an input of the defensive side?
-->Takitaki @ MIKE going forward?
-->Is Joe Woods off of the hot seat for next season DC?
I am going to reiterate that I really don't see glaring scheme issues w/this defense. Of course, all defenses have strengths and weaknesses and this one is no different. However, 28 percent of the league runs a similar scheme. That's a really high number. So, despite what a couple of posters are claiming, the scheme is clearly fit for the NFL.
I almost hate saying this because I don't want anyone to get any heat. I despise the talk about firing this guy or that guy. I like talking about the actual play on the field. However, I wonder how much say our coaches have on the roster and playing time? I wonder if Berry perhaps a bit more control of such things than he should? I say that because it's pretty clear which guys are not playing well on defense. It's also clear that every coach who runs a 4-2-5 wants at least one big, run-stuffing, block-eating guy in the middle. Despite what some claim, no way is Joe Woods that dumb to go against that fact. I also have to add that every guy Berry has drafted made the team last year. The same thing occurred this year. All those draft picks and not one of them were cut before the second season began. I am not sure if any have been cut since the season started, but it seems peculiar and more than just a little coincidental that none of his draft choices were cut after two Training Camps. Milk also posted something about some of the guys on the defense feeling entitled and having their jobs handed to them.
I like Berry and I want him to stay. I think he has done a pretty good job overall, but no way is Phillips better than Taki Taki and no way is Delpit playing well enough to keep his job. There is also that nagging DT issue. I am disappointed that Berry has not adequately addressed that position. We don't even need a dominating guy. Just someone to plug up the middle. There are plenty of those guys around.
I will admit that I could be dead wrong about this. I am not sure if I believe it myself. I really don't want to believe it, but it's a nagging thought that I've been thinking about for a few weeks. If I am correct, I'd like to see the coaching staff and FO to get together this off season and discuss how the roster is chosen and who has the most say about playing time.
One thing against my theory is that Felton and Schwartz have lost playing time recently on the offensive side of the ball. Of course, they are being replaced by guys Berry drafted.
I too have some questions about input and playtime, but in Berry's defense, I don't think it is unusual for Berry's guys to stick at this point. Not in 2-3 years. I think that is pretty normal with any new GM. Now, next season should be different. Some of those duds should start getting cut. We have signed enough players, both drafted and free agent signing that should start to force the hand a bit. Also, we did cut LeCount a few weeks ago.
In the end, Berry has put together a pretty good roster. Before the season everybody was talking about how talented we were. I don't think that has changed over the last few weeks. Possibly it was overestimated a bit. I think the problem is we don't value some positions as much as others. That probably isn't all that different from any other team, but the problems are starting to show. For whatever reason we seem to do a poor job evaluating or prioritizing DT's and receivers. I am not sure if we feel that those positions can be had in the middle rounds much like there is a general feeling that centers and guards should come out of the middle rounds, or we just don't do a good job of scouting and evaluating those guys.
Looking for solutions to the Browns defensive issues seemed impossible until the Browns coaches and GM were forced to make changes at the LB position due to injuries. The following story explains...
Position switch keys success for Sione Takitaki, Browns
With two middle linebackers out, Takitaki played an important role as the MIKE By JaredMueller@JaredKMueller Nov 2, 2022, 7:17pm EDT LINK
I've watched the Browns defense all year, especially the LBs and Walker, the ML until he suffered a season ending injury in the 3rd game against the Steelers...he was all over the field and many times out of position to take care of stopping the run. He was not what I would call a traditional ML.
Phillips took over and he had issues taking bad angles putting himself out of position to tackle the runner at times...then he suffered a season ending pec injury. JOK had some of the same issues but watching video you could see that many times he was not reading the running back but simply "guessing", hoping to stop the RB by blitzing through a gap hoping he guessed right, but in many cases he would recover and end up chasing the play.
Takitaki actually played the position of ML the way it is supposed to be played. Good LBs usually have an general instinct about where a play is heading and taking the time to diagnose the play rather than guessing.
Hopefully the Browns management and coaching staff recognize the value of Taki's play against the Bengals and have the courage to name Taki the starting ML.Play your best players and don't play favorites...do what's best for the team.
About time. I thought it was dumb that with that when Walker went out that we didn't slide Taki over to the Mike and put Phillips in at the SAM, Taki is more of a traditional Mike LB than Phillips is, Phillips isn't that good at taking on and playing off blockers, and he doesn't seem to have the smarts for that position either as he was always choosing the wrong gap and getting taken out of the play.
I've been out of the game for a long time, but it was almost always the Mike who would call the defensive signals in the huddle and then the FS would make coverage calls after the offense broke the huddle and showed their formation.
Looking for solutions to the Browns defensive issues seemed impossible until the Browns coaches and GM were forced to make changes at the LB position due to injuries. The following story explains...
Position switch keys success for Sione Takitaki, Browns
With two middle linebackers out, Takitaki played an important role as the MIKE By JaredMueller@JaredKMueller Nov 2, 2022, 7:17pm EDT LINK
I've watched the Browns defense all year, especially the LBs and Walker, the ML until he suffered a season ending injury in the 3rd game against the Steelers...he was all over the field and many times out of position to take care of stopping the run. He was not what I would call a traditional ML.
Phillips took over and he had issues taking bad angles putting himself out of position to tackle the runner at times...then he suffered a season ending pec injury. JOK had some of the same issues but watching video you could see that many times he was not reading the running back but simply "guessing", hoping to stop the RB by blitzing through a gap hoping he guessed right, but in many cases he would recover and end up chasing the play.
Takitaki actually played the position of ML the way it is supposed to be played. Good LBs usually have an general instinct about where a play is heading and taking the time to diagnose the play rather than guessing.
Hopefully the Browns management and coaching staff recognize the value of Taki's play against the Bengals and have the courage to name Taki the starting ML.Play your best players and don't play favorites...do what's best for the team.
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I don't know. I see it as more an issue of, a lot of the time, whichever gap a LB takes, it's relatively easy for a ball carrier to make him wrong. Pick right, the ball goes left. Pick left, the ball goes right. Frequently, the MLB just needs to crash into the lineman/blocker and not let a big hole develop to either side. He just needs to slow things down so that someone else can make the play. Unfortunately, JOK and Phillips seemed to think they always should be the ones making the plays, but sadly ended up making opportunities for big plays the other way instead.
Jumping around blocks doesn't work unless there's someone to fill the way you didn't jump, or for some other reason the ball carrier isn't able to go to the side one didn't jump around. Yes, you will occasionally get a TFL for a few yards trying to avoid blockers. On the other hand, if it doesn't work, you're giving up first downs, chunk yards, and/or touchdowns. It's the defensive version of hero ball/always swinging for the home run. The way we were doing it, we were leading the league in "strikeouts."
While I feel you're right to a great degree, there is also a skill of seeing what the OL is doing and read that. The way they shift in order to open holes is something you can often see with your own eyes for those paying attention. The ability ro read where they are shifting and what hole they are opening up goes a long way in diagnosing where the RB intends to go.
Jumping around blocks doesn't work unless there's someone to fill the way you didn't jump, or for some other reason the ball carrier isn't able to go to the side one didn't jump around.
But that isn't the way it's supposed to work - to the best of my knowledge and limited playing experience. As a player/position part of the front 7 you have an area of responsibility - and you take care of that and the next guy takes care of his area etc ... when the play comes inside, the LB shouldn't have to guess which side of a blocker to play the ball carrier - and if he guesses wrong it's a busted play and a big gain. The LB should play one side with the knowledge that the other side is taken care of by a fellow defender. If you are the outside guy it's simpler - you contain and don't let the guy get outside to gash you for a big gain, turning the runner back inside or getting them out of bounds. If Taki, or JOK or Walker has to guess one side and commit - and if the runner goes the other way it's a big gain, then we are in trouble.
Yes, defenders have gaps they are responsible for. Against some running plays, this is pretty straight forward. The RB is supposed to run to a specific gap. Against zone running plays or plays with pulling linemen, it's somewhat less straight forward. The RB isn't really told what gap to run to. He's given a general area/zone and told to read what comes open. When running outside zone, the "gaps" tend to naturally get wider. The gap a defender was supposed to defend based on the play call could be 5 times the size it was when the play started. If an OL pulls into that gap he's essentially split that gap into two "gaps." In that instance, the defender has to try to slow play both gaps while someone can chase the runner down from the sides. You can't pick one and leave a new "gap" that's bigger than the one you were initially assigned to defend. That's why pulling lineman are so prevalent now. They essentially create new gaps to defend that no defender was initially assigned to.
That was a beautiful play design. I can't stop watching it. Whoever that RDE is (can't tell because my pupils are dilated still from my eye exam) really took Jonah Williams right out of the play. Perfect design and execution.
I watched your JOK play and it has me wondering. Is it more a matter of discipline or is it a lack of clear assignments. I know with some schemes/play calls you are supposed to shoot a gap, and others you are supposed to maintain your discipline so as to not give the RB an easy choice in gap. It would be feasible to speculate that we have so many "green" youngsters playing at LB that perhaps they can't help themselves from jumping the gun, but hell if I know.
That was a cool play. I see Burns also agrees that it takes Woods 8 weeks to get here. The D will be decent from here on out, just watch, it's a pattern. They might still struggle here and there, but they will be much better overall now.
Myles was the RDE. He collapsed the edge and Deion Jones looped around and came free. We had Bryan at RDT, Wright at the other DT, and Clowney at LDE. As I mentioned earlier, there were times when we had 4 DEs in there, w/Thomas added and Bryan out. I think we were able to run that particular front for two reasons.
1. We were winning big and the Bengals had pretty much abandoned the run. Having 4 DEs who are better pass rushers was smart.
2. Cinci has been running out of shotgun almost exclusively. In the previous week, they lined up in shotgun 100% of the time. That's easier to scheme against when a team is so predictable.
I'll try to answer your question about the other video that involved JOK. That defensive play design was just about perfect for that play. JOK chose to attack the inside shoulder, which left a hole outside of him. JJ displayed almost no effort to go after the back, but he was supposed to fill where JOK went. I don't think was ignorant of his assignment. It's a fundamental technique that you learn in middle school. His job was to get to the outside shoulder of the offensive linemen and force the back to either try to go through him or cut back inside. I just think that JOK isn't the strongest guy around. He's light in the pants. He was trying to use his quickness to get to the ball carrier instead of getting physical w/the guard. He does make plays doing that at times, but it really compromises your gap integrity when guys don't fulfill their responsibilities. That play was all about player error. JOK attacking the wrong shoulder. Thomas and Bryan getting gap blocked and not setting any kind of edge and JJ's lack of effort. The only one who did his job was Newsome. He was the boundry corner and he correctly played outside/in technique.
That was a cool play. I see Burns also agrees that it takes Woods 8 weeks to get here. The D will be decent from here on out, just watch, it's a pattern. They might still struggle here and there, but they will be much better overall now.
Is it discernible that our guys "woke" up...Woods figured it out...or are D Jones and TakiTaki better fits?
A question. Why does it take Joe Woods 8 weeks to figure it out especially when he has basically, the same personnel? Not to mention the same thing happened last year too.
A question. Why does it take Joe Woods 8 weeks to figure it out especially when he has basically, the same personnel? Not to mention the same thing happened last year too.
I'm not a football coaching junkie, but to me, I think Woods wants to run a bunch of complex schemes instead of using the strengths of his personnel. It is almost as if the simpler the defensive call, the more effective they are. I think this happened last year too. The talent is there, IMO, simplify the scheme and let these players use their talent to produce. That being said, there are a lot of times when , in my uneducated mind, the scheme looks right, but the players are undisciplined.
I agree with your take. Communication errors, rarely. Human error. But some coaching failure has to occur as part of each one. Too complex in calls or scheme? Bad mix of personnel? We seem to place a premium on disguising and surprising on defense. Ski on O as well IMO. We ARE making it rocket science, and we have failed in games this year. Last week showed us off. Simpler, faster, tougher. Part of the success must have been due to who wasn't on the field. Some newcomers showed up. Woods showed a simpler, harder game. Success is its own reward. We will need to be tougher for the next stretch.
I was curious about a couple of things because I read that good coaches make adjustments when things are not going well. I also read in the Game Day forum something about how the Browns have so many blown coverages and teams are passing all over us. So, I took a look at the stats. Here some interesting stats that show that after a shaky start, the Browns pass defense has really improved.
The Browns rank 9th overall in passing yards allowed even after starting the season off slowly.
The Browns rank 9th overall in completion percentage.
The Browns rank 12th overall in TDs allowed.
On the negative side, the Browns only have 3 interceptions, which is tied for 27th overall.
Also, consider the Browns against some of the very best qbs in the league.
Joe Burrow was coming off of a game in which he threw for 481 yards. He is averaging 281.7 yds per game. We held him to 193 yards through the air.
Justin Herbert is averaging 281.8 yds per game. He had 228 against us.
Lamar is averaging 196.4 yds per game. He had a measly 94 against us.
It seems to me that our coaching staff has made in-season adjustments to improve the pass defense despite some saying they haven't. It also seems to me that our pass defense has not been as putrid as many are claiming. Now, they may give up 469 yards or so to Tua, like Baltimore did and make my argument look weak. However, facts are typically looked at as a good thing in most circles.
I have mixed feelings about Woods. The defense has played well "at times."
The issue has been consistency. In 2020 we all remember that right? Andrew Sendejo's name brings back the horror of the secondary. Yet we won games missing loads of talent in the secondary.
2021 we drafted Newsome. We signed free agents: John Johnson, Troy Hill, Anthony Walker and Malcolm Smith.
2022 we add Emerson, Greedy is still here. Ward signs a big extension.
Lots of reasons to feel good about the defense.
We come out and lose in ugly fashion. Defensive disfunction.
The last couple games adjustments have been made with good results.
I don't like the pattern. When there are big swings in how you play on defense. That is not a good sign.
These last nine games IMO puts Woods in the hot seat. The defense has to reach a level of consistent performance.
Man, it would be like a dream for any coordinator knowing he's going up against a Joe Woods defense that Sunday.
No creativity with a team that gives no real effort with their backs against the wall.
NO scheming that will EVER make your QB uncomfortable.
ZERO, ZIP, NADA.
If Myles Garrett can't beat your double-team all day, you have nothing to worry about.
This silly experiment needs to be over soon. Trying to meld a play-it-safe, analytics-driven defensive scheme with a coach that's in way over his head is not working.
This defense is incompetent. Woods needs to go. The previous 2 games haven't changed my mind. He beat an overrated bungle team without their best weapon.
Again, who's responsible for the team? Wood's might be the sacrificial lamb eventually but that won't change the fact that it was Stefanski's selection, and he's done nothing to fix the issue in 3-years. Just the facts...........
Well, the defensive performance against Miami probably sealed Woods' fate. He will most likely be fired after the season. Not sure who will replace him, but it will probably lead to a lot of players being shipped out and others brought in w/the highest of hopes.
Well, the defensive performance against Miami probably sealed Woods' fate. He will most likely be fired after the season. Not sure who will replace him, but it will probably lead to a lot of players being shipped out and others brought in w/the highest of hopes.
So, here we go again. smh. The Browns just can't get right.
Well, the defensive performance against Miami probably sealed Woods' fate. He will most likely be fired after the season. Not sure who will replace him, but it will probably lead to a lot of players being shipped out and others brought in w/the highest of hopes.
So, here we go again. smh. The Browns just can't get right.
The good thing IMO is it is far easier to revamp a D and scheme than it is to do that with the O. I don't think it all that bad of a "here we go" moment.
It's not like a head coach change and or FO change.
True, but the 4-2-5 is designed to have lighter, faster, more athletic players than other schemes. The only big man they want is at the NT and perhaps the other DT. Myles can play in any scheme. Clowney will be gone due to lack of production and cost. The LBers will need replaced. Probably all the safeties. There is not a DT on the roster worth keeping. Young guys like Thomas and Wright probably won't fit in the new scheme.
There is not a DT on the roster worth keeping. Young guys like Thomas and Wright probably won't fit in the new scheme.
Someone help me clarify - for months I've been reading that the DT's were too light for the 4-2-5 defense ... not that they are trash. So is the current thinking that Stefanski and Berry managed to go through the entire 2021 off season and decide to keep starters at the DT position that won't start for any NFL team no matter the system? But somehow it's not Stefanski or Berry's fault?
I know a few on the board respect Quincy Carrier views about the team. He's ready to throw the whole defense out except maybe six players. Search... ' BROWNS NEED TO REBOOT THE DEFENSE- ITS GOTTEN THAT BAD '.
After three years with Joe Woods the defense does not work.
In 2021 there was a rebuild. Walker, Hill, Smith, Clowney were signed. They drafted Newsome, JOK.
They extended Ward. Kept Greedy and drafted Emerson.
Inconsistency continued.
I shut the game off after the first series of the second half. It was clear to me then that the defense had no answer for the Fins offense.
The Browns offense can not win games where the defense loses games.
The Fins ran at the tackles knowing how weak they are. DE pressure was negated because the ball came out fast or the pocket moved.
The Browns flooded the mid-field with zone. The Fins ate it up. The defense gave up. ===================================================================
Woods has to go and so do some of the players. I do not know if there is a real candidate internally. So, Woods, may finish the year.
I don't really care about the call to fire Stefanski. Let it all out bitch and moan. Stefanski is not the problem. Yes, he is the head coach. And he has to fire his DC.
It happens often. The offense is fine and will improve with DW.
I agree. People here were saying how the D really came together the second half of last season and were coming around this year. I didn't see it. It's unbelievable how offenses can keep doing the same things over and over against us and gain big chunks of yardage.
I can't see any scenario where Woods is brought back next year. Berry shares in the responsibility for the defense as well. The complete neglect of the IDL is inexcusable. The JJ III signing has been a spectacular failure. The Browns defense needs rebuilt up the middle.
Stefanski will have a six week audition to show what he can do (against some pretty bad teams) with Watson and then Haslam will have a decision to make. Haslam is and always will be the wild card.
Bone: that’s how i see it too. It’s not like Wilkes is some newbie in his first year, new system, etc. This is YEAR 3. We should be seeing a good, consistent unit. We have spent draft capital and FA money on the defense. What we are seeing is a total failure in personnel, scheme, effort, etc. It’s inexcusable.
I can't see any scenario where Woods is brought back next year.
The JJ III signing has been a spectacular failure.
Stefanski will have a six week audition to show what he can do (against some pretty bad teams) with Watson and then Haslam will have a decision to make. Haslam is and always will be the wild card.
Whole-heartedly agree with the Woods and JJ III thoughts.
Though I disagree that Haslam is considering Watson's return this season as an audition for Stefanski's continued employment next season. I strongly suspect he'll be back along with most, if not all, the offensive staff. AVP's role might be modified, an "offensive consultant" or a new QB coach more suited to Watson might be brought in, but that side of the ball will remain the same. Dee is not going to shake the cart with massive change offensively without a full season of Watson. But, who knows right?
Listening to beat writers this morning seems like it is a foregone conclusion that Woods is keeping the DC seat warm for the next guy.
We'll see.
I get that maybe there aren't good options available today... i get that wholesale change mid season verifies the season is toast ... but what if some of the players who look [censored] under Woods could shine before the end of the season and be keepers, where as with a continuation of Woods we will not learn anything new about the players. I'm for making a change today. I'd bring in Gregg Williams from the XFL in a heart beat.
I felt going into this last game Woods was on the hot seat.
Yesterday was confirmation. It is gin clear. It is both scheme and personnel.
Defensive game plans are about how do you prepare for the offense of the team you play.
IMO the inconsistency of the defense proves that Woods can not consistently prepare a defense.
McDaniels took our defense apart. One play he would move the pocket and throw underneath. Next play gash the tackles. Next play cross two slants create a rub. Lead the cutter in stride. Every play there was an open option. The punter could have stayed home.
A pathetic performance. Their runner who is nothing special racked up huge yardage. Easy pickings the weakness is all over our tape.
This is the end for this season. There is no quick correction. Nine games into a season there is no magic wand.
Look hard at the defensive roster pick some guys to keep and get rid of the rest.
Berry and Stefanski have to plan now. Figure out a path forward. Know the scheme you want to play. And start looking for a DC who can run the scheme. Keep the guys you believe can fit. Get rid of the rest.
As I watched the game, looking at center of the Browns defense as they struggled to stop the Fins running game and attempted to pressure Tua, the quality of our backup DTs and LBs was horrible. Considering the fact that the Browns starting DTs and LBs are no better that 'average or below average', the Miami offensive line played with the Browns defense like they were a toy.
The quality of football I was watching from the Browns defense late in the 3rd qtr and the entire 4th qtr..I thought I was watching a pre-season game, with the Browns defensive coaching staff attempting to get as many our 'backups' in the game so they could see if they worth keeping.
I watched DT Roderick Perry get knocked around by the Fins OLine as if he was a ball bouncing around in a pinball game. Perry is one of our 'undersized DTs", signed by the Browns for his speed and quickness along with his SPARQ Scores. Perry was in against the Dolphins for 23 snaps..had 0 tackles and 0 sacks. Guess he had a bad day.
I watched two of our backup LBs, Fields in for 10 snaps and Kunaszyk in for 20 snaps, both recorded 0 tackles and 0 sacks. Perrion Winfrey was a healty scratch from game..guess we didn't need him. There were reports that he had been sick last week, but if we are to believe the reports of him being a healthy scratch you have to wonder why?
If I didn't know better, yesterday's performance vs the Fins looked like the Browns owner, front office and coaching staff have made up their mind to TANK the rest of the season, in an effort pick as high in each round as they can.
JC... .... Perrion Winfrey was a healty scratch from game..guess we didn't need him. There were reports that he had been sick last week, but if we are to believe the reports of him being a healthy scratch you have to wonder why?
Did he roll his car while trying to avoid a deer..?..That would be a good reason to suspend him, right?
It would be nice if Stefanski had priorities that helped the team win.
Just what did he do that deserved being benched.?
It would be a change if the front office brought in some real defensive talent or even better, if the coaching staff developed some of the talent they already have.
I'm telling you, that game was a total TANK JOB by the coaching staff of the Browns. Depo and Berry want as many losses as they can get to move up in the draft...in an effort to recoup some of the value they lost when they gave up the farm for Watson.
JC... .... Perrion Winfrey was a healty scratch from game..guess we didn't need him. There were reports that he had been sick last week, but if we are to believe the reports of him being a healthy scratch you have to wonder why?
I believe this part about part of the crew that spends way too much time at the club. I think it's an ongoing problem w/some of these guys and Winfrey seems to top the list, but it was especially evident yesterday. I mentioned it on the Game Recap thread that S. Beach provides a lot of distractions and players in all sports have fell victim to its charms. The Browns D played like they did too much clubbing on Saturday night.
I don't think they were out Saturday night because there is a team curfew and room checks in place the night before a game when traveling for an away game. I do know a lot of NBA teams catch the South Beach flu because they can be out late since they do not play until the following evening. In fact, I believe an NBA team went down a day ahead so the players could get it out of their system, lol.
My guess is that Bone was correct when he was skeptical about Winfrey being held out all week with an "illness."
From my understanding, Winfrey and some Browns players are regulars at the Barley House and Town Hall in Cleveland. Both places have been hot spots for players over the years. Manziel was a regular.
I won't be surprised if Winfrey is waived at some point this season. He's clearly not learning any lessons.
I think you need to keep about 5 starters on D. Call Zimmer now, and get rid of Woods as quick as you know. Find out what Van Pelt is doing and dust him off.
Remind me, who are we tanking for? Without picks, I mean . . . .
..2022... TODAY, the Browns defense ranks............31st.....in points scored against... and TODAY, the Browns defense ranks......17th....in yds given up ...
..2021... Last season the Browns Defense ranked....13th.... in points scored against... and last season the Browns Def. ranked....5th...... in yds given up ...
Why did the Browns defense "decline" so much this season..? It's not like the 2022 defense declined just a little bit, either. The Browns defense has declined from the 13th in points given up in 2021 to being 'nearly the worst' in the NFL this season.
Not losing track of the thread's title, I wanted to suggest that we dawgs look at the trend that is Woods as his defense is called. Looking up? Cratering? Is the roster better this season than last? Playing hard or slacking? Fundamentals being executed like tackling, coverage, run D, pressure? Do they look prepared and are they motivated to go to war at gametime?
Lot of answers to too many questions. Our trend is down. It looks worse; we seem indifferent. If only we had some draft picks, we could at least say that we are tanking for XYZ. Can't even say that. Zimmer?
The most important stat a defense has to be concerned about is how many "points per game have they allowed"..! It doesn't matter if it's points per qtr allowed..or points per game allowed..or points per season allowed...the "bottom line" for any NFL team is..."how many points per game did your team's defense allow" in a particular game or in a particular season..!
Did anyone think to ask, "why did the Browns defense decline so much in 2022 season (so far) compared to the 2021 season..?
In the Browns 9 games played so far in 2022, the Browns defense ranks "NEARLY LAST" in the NFL...in points allowed per game..! The Browns defense is giving up 21.8 pts per game (so far) in 2022.
The Browns did promote the DTs they drafted in 2020 and 2021 to take over as the Browns starting DTsor in 2021. Did the quality of play from the DTs drafted in 2020 and 2021 result in such a decline in the Browns defensive performance, when comparing the 2021 results to the 2022 results after 9 games..?
That appears to be the answer to the question...how did the Browns defense decline so much, when comparing their 2021 performance to the Defensive performance in 2022..?
The final question becomes...WHO IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SUPPLYING THE DEFENSIVE TALENT WOODS HAD TO WORK WITH..?
I think Zimmer is done in the NFL. He's an "analyst" at Jackson St right now w/Deion Sanders. He's in his mid-to-late 60s and Minni's defenses fell off the last years while he was there. He is also pretty stubborn and I just don't see him being a fit in the NFL in general and Cleveland in particular.
I would not want him as a HC, but Brian Flores is an intriguing guy as a DC. He's proven himself and it would be a step up from his current position in Pittsburgh.
I would not want him as a HC, but Brian Flores is an intriguing guy as a DC. He's proven himself and it would be a step up from his current position in Pittsburgh.
One thing we seem to forget is unless a coach has an expiring contract with a NF team, teams syill have to give permission for their coaches to move. The trend seems to be they won't.
I think we might look towards a college coach. Maybe we could get Nick saban?(just kidding)
I would look at Jim Leonhard. I would like the new DC to have NFL playing experience. I think Leonhard would be super. I think he would bring player cred to the defensive coaching staff. Him also playing here would be a benefit.
I think this whole coaching thing is overblown by fans and the media. I have come to realize that football message boards are similar to sports talk radio. Controversy, wild speculation, anger, etc. Mostly BS. Trying to have a real football conversation on here is very difficult. Even a game recap thread draws posters who want to talk about board personalities. I'm not talking about you because you are typically one of the most reasonable posters on here. Other than the Ward thing you got going on.
So, I will say this to you..........I've been thinking about this defense a lot. I've already reported that I don't see many scheme issues. Of course, there are some.....but, all schemes have strengths and weaknesses. There is nothing glaring schematically. Here is the real elephant in the room. I am becoming more and more convinced that Berry's draft picks [especially on the defensive side of the ball] have a sense of entitlement. They don't really have to earn their playing time or even their roster spot. I am becoming more certain that Berry controls the roster. All GMs due, but there are degrees to it. I think it is pretty obvious that Berry is more controlling than others.
Of course, I am speculating. However, there are bits and pieces of evidence all over the place. Put them together and that is what you get. If this is true, what is a defensive coaching change really going to accomplish?
Woods had a better defense in 2021 than he has in 2022..that is a fact.
Woods got a better performance from his DTs (Jackson/McDowell in 2021 than he has gotten from the starting DTs in 2022.
This 2021 Woods defense played much better...
2021 Browns defense..gave up 21.4 pts/pg..ranking 15th in the NFL
Myles Garrett DE Jadeve Clowney DE Jordan Elliott DT Taven Bryan DT Deion Jones MLB Sione Takitaki LB Greg Newsome CB Denzel Ward CB Ronnie Harrison S John Johnson S D'Anthony Bell S
...than the present 2022 Woods defense...giving up 26.4 pts/pg..#31/NFL
Myles Garrett DE Jad Clowney DE J. Elliott DT Taven Bryan DT Deion Jones MLB Sione Takitaki LB G. Newsome CB Denzel Ward CB Ron Harrison S John Johnson S D'Anthony Bell S
So what is the problem..scheme, coaching, quality of players, effort by the players on the 2021 team vs 2022 team..what is the reason for such a drastic decline in the Browns defense..?
I agree on Berry. I don't think the roster is as collaborative as maybe was advertised.
I guess I understand why one would stick with Schwantz for a 2nd season, but unless something changes big time over the next few weeks, I can't see even bringing that guy to camp next year. It's pretty obvious that Stefanski isn't going to play the guy due to lack of trust. I think that might be a bone of contention between the coach and Berry.
The same might be said with the DT's. It seems that Berry's vision is more the fast,nimble type over the warthog, dig in the trenches type. With Woods 2 backer set, it seems to me you first need to anchor the middle, and then if the guy is nimble and fast as well, all the better. We just get pushed off the lane and don't clog anything up the middle. Something needs to be done there. I am thinking maybe 3-4 front would be best with some of the linemen we have. Myles would be good in anything a team runs. A guy like Elliott might be better suited as a 3-4 edge guy. We would just need to find that big guy over the ball, and you can usually find them in the draft where we will be picking or in FA.
I don't know, that's a lot of might be's, but I do know there is a disconnect on this D. Something isn't jiving with that unit.
I know you like Ward, and he is a good player. My problem is he is a "Me" guy. I just don't like the way he left Delpit to sit on the dunce stool. Right or wrong, a good teammate doesn't do that. I hope we trade the guy. We have the corners to do that.
You did not accuse me of this, but I want to clarify that I am not really bad-mouthing Berry and I definitely want him to keep his job. I am just saying it will be hard for any coach to overcome entitled players. What have guys like Delpit, Elliot, Phillips ever done to deserve starting roles and not be benched for poor play?
I mentioned Flores for DC earlier because he is probably the strictest disciplinarian of any guy out there. He takes absolutely no crap. Players won't punk him. However, would Berry tolerate that?
You did not accuse me of this, but I want to clarify that I am not really bad-mouthing Berry and I definitely want him to keep his job. I am just saying it will be hard for any coach to overcome entitled players. What have guys like Delpit, Elliot, Phillips ever done to deserve starting roles and not be benched for poor play?
I mentioned Flores for DC earlier because he is probably the strictest disciplinarian of any guy out there. He takes absolutely no crap. Players won't punk him. However, would Berry tolerate that?
All young guys come into the league entitled. They're young, immature, rich, and have been put on a pedestal their entire lives. That's true of every team. The issue with the Browns is they have no leadership. We can debate where it's lacking...Haslams, FO (Berry), Stefanski, players. But at the end of the day it's a rudderless, leaderless ship.
As for Flores, I read something on the OBR Insider that said the Browns won't touch him...wasn't very specific as to why. Take it for what it is worth.
How many years Is Haslam going to continue to employ Andrew Berry. Berry was overhyped as this up and coming football roster genius He has been anything but. BTW maybe the guy that the Vikings brought in from the Browns front office Was really smarter than Berry? Berry has drafted players that are more athletes than pure football Players. He essentially has built a roster of cupcakes
This is from a larger article that is posted on the Game Recap thread in another forum. This part deals w/the Browns defense.
5 What is salvageable from this defense?
Here is the question that has to be asked: what is salvageable from this defense?
The cornerback room will carry over into 2023. Denzel Ward is guaranteed too much money, Greg Newsome is still a promising player on a rookie deal, Martin Emerson has already outplayed his draft slot, and A.J. Green will be retained for cheap as an exclusive rights free agent. The only name who is not likely to return is Greedy Williams.
The core of the second level should be back as well. Owusu-Koramoah is not going anywhere, and there is hope Takitaki will return as well. Anthony Walker Jr., off of an ACL injury, may be able to be retained for cheap as well. Outside of that, Jacob Phillips, Tony Fields, and Jordan Kunaszyk will all have to fight for a roster spot. Brought in as a plug for a leak, Deion Jones will likely not return.
And this is where it gets dicey.
Grant Delpit might be the only safety in that room to return. Undrafted rookie D’Anthony Bell has earned his worth as a special teams contributor but should not be forced on the field anytime soon on defense. John Johnson III’s price tag vastly outweighs his production as he is likely to exit, and Ronnie Harrison is playing out an expiring deal as well.
Now we get to the defensive line.
The defensive tackle room needs completely overhauled as there is not a serviceable plug in that entire room. Taven Bryan is playing out a one-year deal (and while he would be a serviceable rotational piece) and is unlikely to get a new contract. Jordan Elliott is not going to have to fight for a roster spot in the last year of his deal, Tommy Togiai might be the worst defensive tackle in the league, and Perrion Winfrey cannot even sniff the field as a rookie (not to mention his difficulties staying in good standing with the coaching staff).
The promise the Browns have seen in Isaiah Thomas, however, means they will likely only need to replace one defensive end as Garrett, Alex Wright, and Thomas at least give them three quality pieces. Jadeveon Clowney and Chase Winovich are both on expiring contracts and would be long shots to retain.
Berry has his work cut out for him as the safety and defensive tackle rooms need a complete makeover.
The issue becomes if Woods is gone then who replaces him? One of the reasons that continuity is important.
We are currently running a 4-2-5. Sometimes a 4-3-4. Sometimes using nickle and dime packages.
Does Berry and Stefanski look for a different scheme? What do they want to run?
Who will be available after the season? Who will come here?
Personally I believe in the base 4-3 defense. Then it becomes a matter of personnel. The interior of a 4-3 has to be able to stop the run first. Your DE's then have to be guys like Myles that close fast from the end. Your mike is a run support guy who is quick to read and fill. He should also be able to play zone coverage. Your outside backers IMO have to have speed. They have to be able to defend the flat. They have to be able to cover and make open field tackles. JOK can do that. All three backers should be guys that can also blitz.
It has been stated before and it bears repeating. The man that builds the roster is key. Berry has done well in some areas and not so well in others.
He is not alone. No GM hits on all decisions. Not Belichick or anyone else.
Berry has promise. He will never be perfect. Cooper was a steal. Newsome, JOK, York and Emerson good picks. I understand signing JJ. However, I have not been impressed with him at all. It happens. Schwartz has bombed. You look at his college tape. I can see why he was selected. It just has not worked out. Berry's drafts have been mixed. Pretty normal for draft picks.
IMO defense begins with pressure on the quarterback. You want that without blitzing. But, you must strategically blitz. If you can not stop the run. You are in trouble.
Scheme is important but players are more important.
You might want to edit those lineups. Also, you forgot Delpit.
vers...you might want to read my post again...I didn't forget anyone from the "current starters"...you forgot, Delpit did not start for "disciplinary reason" due to a violation of team rules. What I posted is accurate.
I was trying to help you out, mac. Your defensive rosters for both seasons are the same. Guys like Jones and Bryan were not even on our roster last year.
So, I will say this to you..........I've been thinking about this defense a lot. I've already reported that I don't see many scheme issues. Of course, there are some.....but, all schemes have strengths and weaknesses. There is nothing glaring schematically. Here is the real elephant in the room. I am becoming more and more convinced that Berry's draft picks [especially on the defensive side of the ball] have a sense of entitlement. They don't really have to earn their playing time or even their roster spot. I am becoming more certain that Berry controls the roster. All GMs due, but there are degrees to it. I think it is pretty obvious that Berry is more controlling than others.
Of course, I am speculating. However, there are bits and pieces of evidence all over the place. Put them together and that is what you get. If this is true, what is a defensive coaching change really going to accomplish?
Good coaches get the most out of their entitled players. Woods' schemes might be good, but if he can't coach the players to follow them, that's on him. I'm not buying that his hands are tied by the GM to the extent that he can't motivate or teach his players. He hasn't shown competence as a defensive coordinator through 2.5 seasons. Even in the 11 win season we almost blew huge leads against Dallas and Tennessee.
I was talking about the bigger picture. I get that you desperately want Woods fired. I have already said that he is almost certainly going to be fired. I am not arguing that. What I am saying is that changing coaches is not likely to change the attitudes of the players that are not putting in the required effort if the GM continues to enable them.
What I am saying is that changing coaches is not likely to change the attitudes of the players that are not putting in the required effort if the GM continues to enable them.
So it's Berry's job to motivate the players and he's the problem? Not the Head Coach or Stefanski.
I was trying to help you out, mac. Your defensive rosters for both seasons are the same. Guys like Jones and Bryan were not even on our roster last year.
vers...you are correct about the rosters being the same..obviously it should not be that way. Trying to get starting rosters from two different sources is not a good idea.
I will repost...
.JC..
Woods had a better defense in 2021 than he has in 2022..that is a fact..!
Woods got a better performance from his DTs (Jackson/McDowell) in 2021 than he has gotten from the starting DTs of the 2022 defense...(DTs J. Elliott/ T.Bryan).
Below is the 2021 Woods defense that performed better than his 2022 defense..
Woods 2021 defense..gave up 21.4 pts/pg..ranking 15th in the NFL...
J. Clowney............DE Myles Garrett........DE Malik Jackson........DT Jordan Elliott.........DT JO Koramoah.........LB Malcolm Smith.......LB Sione Takitaki........LB Denzel Ward..........CB Greedy Williams.....CB John Johnson.........S Grant Delpit...........S
...Woods 2022 defense...is giving up 26.4 pts/pg..ranking #31 in the NFL.
Myles Garrett...DE J. Clowney.......DE J. Elliott..........DT Taven Bryan....DT Deion Jones....MLB Sione Takitaki..LB G. Newsome...CB Denzel Ward...CB Ron Harrison....S John Johnson....S D'Anthony Bell..S*
*Bell was in for one snap...Delpit was in for the rest of the game
So what is the problem..scheme, coaching, quality of players, effort by the players on the 2021 team vs 2022 team..what is the reason for such a drastic decline in the Browns defense..?
None of us know for sure. All of those things have been mentioned. I've presented my opinions on the situation but I am not going to try to force-feed them because again, none of us know for sure.
You did not accuse me of this, but I want to clarify that I am not really bad-mouthing Berry and I definitely want him to keep his job. I am just saying it will be hard for any coach to overcome entitled players. What have guys like Delpit, Elliot, Phillips ever done to deserve starting roles and not be benched for poor play?
I mentioned Flores for DC earlier because he is probably the strictest disciplinarian of any guy out there. He takes absolutely no crap. Players won't punk him. However, would Berry tolerate that?
I mentioned it elsewhere, but i think we need a ex- player and probably will need to look towards a college DC. I would hire Jim Leonhard if possible.
I don't want Berry to go anywhere either. I was just pointing out an area of weakness IMO.
The difference between a team and FO trying to win and a team that clearly appears to not!
Linval Joseph will have a chance to see action in a 13th NFL season. The Eagles are signing the veteran defensive tackle, according to Adam Schefter of ESPN.com (on Twitter).
The former Giants, Vikings and Chargers interior defender recently visited the Jets. No signing followed, but the Eagles will provide an opportunity. Philadelphia has struggled against the run in each of its past two games. Joseph stands to provide some help for the 8-1 team on this front.
After playing out his two-year Chargers contract, Joseph has spent the past eight months in free agency. He will join an Eagles team that has devoted significant funds to its defensive line. Philly recently dealt for Robert Quinn, adding the veteran edge rusher to a position group that already featured five veteran contracts (Fletcher Cox, Brandon Graham, Javon Hargrave, Josh Sweat, Derek Barnett) and first-round pick Jordan Davis. The team has seen Davis’ recent absence hurt its efforts against the run.
Davis suffered a high ankle sprain in Week 8. In the two games without the mammoth D-tackle, the Eagles have respectively given up 168 and 152 rushing yards. Dameon Pierce did not experience much of a blip in his Offensive Rookie of the Year campaign against then-unbeaten Philly in Week 9, and the Commanders’ Brian Robinson–Antonio Gibson duo steadily wore down an Eagles defense on the field for much of Monday night’s upset loss. The Commanders’ 49 rush attempts were the most by a non-Eagle or Raven squad over the past five years.
You did not accuse me of this, but I want to clarify that I am not really bad-mouthing Berry and I definitely want him to keep his job. I am just saying it will be hard for any coach to overcome entitled players. What have guys like Delpit, Elliot, Phillips ever done to deserve starting roles and not be benched for poor play?
I mentioned Flores for DC earlier because he is probably the strictest disciplinarian of any guy out there. He takes absolutely no crap. Players won't punk him. However, would Berry tolerate that?
I mentioned it elsewhere, but i think we need a ex- player and probably will need to look towards a college DC. I would hire Jim Leonhard if possible.
I don't want Berry to go anywhere either. I was just pointing out an area of weakness IMO.
The record of the franchise's CHIEF STRATEGIST is 36 wins..69 losses...1 tie...!
At some point I would think that ever Haslam should realize that FOOTBALL is not BASEBALL..!
Haslam needs to realize that he has done much more for Depodesta and his thriving Analytics Business..than Depodesta has ever done for the Cleveland Browns. The Cleveland Browns record since Depodesta took over as the Browns Chief Strategist..36W-69L-1T.
*Note: In 2016, Deicas (Paul Depodesta's wife) launched the Sports Mind Institute, which seeks to connect lessons learned from figures in professional sports, athletes, team executives, and coaches, to help others apply them to life and the business sector.
When the Browns finally send Depodesta packing, NO OTHER NFL team will hire him and he will return to Baseball...write it down..!
You did not accuse me of this, but I want to clarify that I am not really bad-mouthing Berry and I definitely want him to keep his job. I am just saying it will be hard for any coach to overcome entitled players. What have guys like Delpit, Elliot, Phillips ever done to deserve starting roles and not be benched for poor play?
I mentioned Flores for DC earlier because he is probably the strictest disciplinarian of any guy out there. He takes absolutely no crap. Players won't punk him. However, would Berry tolerate that?
I mentioned it elsewhere, but i think we need a ex- player and probably will need to look towards a college DC. I would hire Jim Leonhard if possible.
I don't want Berry to go anywhere either. I was just pointing out an area of weakness IMO.
The record of the franchise's CHIEF STRATEGIST is 36 wins..69 losses...1 tie...!
At some point I would think that ever Haslam should realize that FOOTBALL is not BASEBALL..!
Haslam needs to realize that he has done much more for Depodesta and his thriving Analytics Business..than Depodesta has ever done for the Cleveland Browns. The Cleveland Browns record since Depodesta took over as the Browns Chief Strategist..36W-69L-1T.
*Note: In 2016, Deicas (Paul Depodesta's wife) launched the Sports Mind Institute, which seeks to connect lessons learned from figures in professional sports, athletes, team executives, and coaches, to help others apply them to life and the business sector.
When the Browns finally send Depodesta packing, NO OTHER NFL team will hire him and he will return to Baseball...write it down..!
Well Mac, I know where you stand. I disagree. I don't think Depo has as much to do with you as I.
He isn't picking players. I will say his office has "some" influence on in game strategy.....like going for it.
Simply an odds based deal. I think if you are honest and watch games, you see teams going for it on 4th down way more than 10 years ago.
I understand that when we played HS football...the single mask, salt pills and no water days of practice, you punted on 4th down.
Sorry man, the game you and I played isn't the same even though we agree that it probably should be a bit more like that.
Every year some kid broke an arm doing the monkey drill. It scared the hell out of you, but it also made you jump and roll a little faster when it was your turn, and not break the fall, roll in to the fall. That L shaped forearm of that kid kind of set that idea in stone.
Sorry man, the game you and I played isn't the same even though we agree that it probably should be a bit more like that.
peen..it's obvious to me that you are a lot older than I am...no single bar helmets for our team..no one ever broke their arm in monkey drills..no salt pills and mandatory hydration in practice and weigh in before practice and after...and we would go for it on 4th down if needed. I think your imagination is a bit out of control.
If it's true that Depo is telling Stefanski when he should go for it on 4th down that is pure BS. Part of the problem in Cleveland is too many people want to play HC but never step forward and take responsibility when they fail. Stefanski goes out and takes the hit for all the failures and that might be part of the reason the media and fans target him so often.
Depo is in the Browns draft room so I'm going to assume he's offering his opinion on who the Browns should draft or whether the Browns should make a trade to gain draft capitol.
I'm going to ask this question again because it goes to the heart of a major problem...HOW DID THE BROWNS END UP WITH SUCH POOR DTs?
The Browns drafted DTs Elliott, 3rd rnd of 2020..Togia, 4th rnd of 2021..Winfrey, 4th rnd of 2022. Three of the 4 DTs the Browns are using are products of THE SYSTEM that Browns management established to judge football talent. While we want to blame DC Woods for the Browns inability to stop the run..who judged the DT talent that the franchise spent years developing into starters?
How bad are the Browns DTs...each week GM Berry is searching the waiver wire to see if we can find some DT help..hoping to find someone better than we drafted.
Browns fans have watched a similar situation develop over the past couple years at WR. The Browns DRAFT TEAM spent a 3rd pick in 2021 on WR Schwartz who OVERWHELMED the Browns draft team with his blazing speed..but I guess the guys with their stop watches and SPARQ charts forgot something...can he catch the football..? Can he catch the football when going over the middle, when he knows he's gonna get hit..?
Schwartz has owned a spot on the Browns roster for 2 seasons and has contributed very little. Schwartz is just another example of the Browns DRAFT SYSTEM at work. Schwartz is another example of how the Browns judge football talent with priorities developed by people with little experience in the game of football.
How long do the Browns continue down this path..? Every week the Browns are actively seeking talent off of the waiver wire out of necessity, to see if they can find better talent than they drafted.
While I certainly disagree with much of what you are posting I do certainly agree with you about just how much power and influence Depo wields. I think some try to minimize that and downplay it.
Let's face it, while Haslam has gone through GM's and HC's, the one person who stayed through it all was Depo. For some reason Haslam trusted him and valued him above all others. I see no reason to believe that's changed.
I'm not a Joe Woods fan and it's because of the defensive schemes he uses. He is what his record says he is...
But don't blame Woods for the quality of players he has to work with...those smaller, quick DTs with their high SPARQ scores and who run a 40 in something like 5.0 or less. The analytics boys have a say in who is worthy of being drafted by the Browns. Since Depodesta took over the franchise in 2016, his strategies have amounted to...5.1 wins per season.
Any other Chief Strategist in the NFL would be held accountable for what he produces...but in Cleveland, Haslam rewards "losers". In 6 out of the 7 seasons that Depodesta and his strategists have been in charge of the Browns franchise...they have produced losing football teams.
IMO, the Browns need a healthier balance between analytics personnel and pure football personnel.
When will the analytics crew be held accountable for what they have produced..? One winning season in 7 yrs and that one winning seasons was with a QB that Depodesta "hated".
I cannot, at this point, see how he stays employed after this year. I'd be kinda surprised if he makes it the rest of the season, especially with quotes like that.
The failure of the defense has a lot to do with Joe Woods.
However, it is not all on him. "Some" of the blame is on Berry and Stefanski.
The scheme and the man who runs the defense and prepares the defensive game plans is Woods.
There is no doubt in my mind Woods bears the majority of the failure.
At the same time when 2021 ended all parties involved rehash the season and plan for the next. At that time preparing for the off season includes planning for free agency and the draft. The plan is based upon the 2021 assessment. The plan was incorrect.
The draft in it's purest form is BPA. But, it does include need. Free agency is different. It is specific to target players to fill a need. Trades and who to pursue is also part of the off season plan.
How it was decided to have all four of the DT's be guys who are unproven and developing was a mistake.
Now the team is in a position with no real options. And, with the eleven game suspension of Watson. A season with possibilities has turned to a punt.
Woods should fired after this season. But KS and Berry both know they are partly to blame. Hopefully it is a learning point for this coming off season.
There is no doubt in my mind Woods bears the majority of the failure.
It was the Browns analytics department and our GM who judged and drafted the talent that Woods has to work with. Of the 4 DTs listed as starters and backups for the Browns, 3 were draft picks of the Browns GM, Andrew Berry.
Not only did the Browns system of judging draft talent fail, they knew going into the season that they had issues at DT and failed to address the weakness when they had the opportunity to do so.
The Browns Need Defensive Tackle Help, What are Their Options? link
I think in the case of the DT's. It was completely misjudged. That is on Berry but also Stefanski and Woods.
Berry believes in collaboration. I think it is part of the culture they have tried to foster.
I disagree about JOK. I have seen him make plenty of open field tackles. At times he will shoot a gap and miss. But he does not miss in the flat one on one.
I agree the safety play has been poor. Although I have seen improvement from Delpit tackling.
The problem I see is inconsistent plans on how to defense different teams. Players get beat. There is a lot of talent in the league.
Great offenses are going to score. But you can not go an entire game like the Dolphins and get gashed up the middle. We gave up 198 yards to nobodies.
Damn put more guys in the box. If you know the weakness is at tackle. Have a plan to compensate.
The players we have on defense are not as bad as the results have been. Hell in 2020 we had a terrible secondary and played better.
Changes needed in defense include both coaches and players.
Bone, I'm stealing your quote from the browns news thread to quote the first sentence.
Quote
I think in the case of the DT's. It was completely misjudged. That is on Berry but also Stefanski and Woods.
I've been wanting to post about it for a few weeks now, but just haven't had the time to really reply to much.
Your quote is the summary of my thoughts of the DT room. My opinion on what happened was through their end of the season reviews and off season planning. Two of their views were similar in planning the positions, the WR room and the DT room. I really think their plan was not to spend much in those areas (that is obvious now, lol).
On the offensive side, they felt they had a few pieces they could work with: DPJ growing as a receiver, Chief at TE, the backs running/catching out of the backfield. They targeted Cooper as a great piece and traded peanuts for him. I'm sure they understood the issues if there were injuries, but they wanted to save this year after the trading of Watson and try to roll that money over to next year.
On the defensive side, i think it was the same thing. Their evaluation was they have excellent ends, an alright LB core, with some good backfield. Woods probably vouched for Elliott making strides and was ready for the starting role. They also brought in a cheap veteran piece with Bryan. Togiai would be fine rotating with a drafted piece in Winfrey (just like the WR room in drafting Bell and not being a main part of the offense..only as slot). They could save some money and get by with the players brought in through draft and FA.
The hindsight of this, the issue is they brought an excellent receiver (Cooper) on offense which helped the receiver room. On defense, Bryan shouldn't have been that main piece since he was a project piece. They should have focused on a solid DT to pair with Bryan/Elliott.
If this was their thought process, then I understand their thought process when planning it out. But...in the end, it is a failure. I just hope Berry/Stef learn from it and make adjustments in future planning.
I've been wanting to post about it for a few weeks now, but just haven't had the time to really reply to much.
Your quote is the summary of my thoughts of the DT room. My opinion on what happened was through their end of the season reviews and off season planning. Two of their views were similar in planning the positions, the WR room and the DT room. I really think their plan was not to spend much in those areas (that is obvious now, lol).
On the offensive side, they felt they had a few pieces they could work with: DPJ growing as a receiver, Chief at TE, the backs running/catching out of the backfield. They targeted Cooper as a great piece and traded peanuts for him. I'm sure they understood the issues if there were injuries, but they wanted to save this year after the trading of Watson and try to roll that money over to next year.
On the defensive side, i think it was the same thing. Their evaluation was they have excellent ends, an alright LB core, with some good backfield. Woods probably vouched for Elliott making strides and was ready for the starting role. They also brought in a cheap veteran piece with Bryan. Togiai would be fine rotating with a drafted piece in Winfrey (just like the WR room in drafting Bell and not being a main part of the offense..only as slot). They could save some money and get by with the players brought in through draft and FA.
The hindsight of this, the issue is they brought an excellent receiver (Cooper) on offense which helped the receiver room. On defense, Bryan shouldn't have been that main piece since he was a project piece. They should have focused on a solid DT to pair with Bryan/Elliott.
If this was their thought process, then I understand their thought process when planning it out. But...in the end, it is a failure. I just hope Berry/Stef learn from it and make adjustments in future planning.
I agree with a lot of this. The Browns clearly misjudged the talent level, assumed corners could be cut at certain positions.
The lesson: Overconfidence is a character flaw.
Let's see if lessons were learned heading into the 2023 season.
I think many/most will agree also. It's been noted and commented on how bad the DTs are - how weak the LBs are .. and that comes down to the FO as a whole. Berry for drafting and acquiring such poor talent, the team for deciding who to keep and whether a guy like Suh who was available would help or not, and then Woods for not coaching them up, scheme etc and overall execution. It's also one extra layer of why people are questioning Stefanski as a HC.
There are many types of management styles. Jerry Jones an owner runs the Cowboys. I am sure everything runs threw him. There are many departments. There is delegation of duties by in the end all big decisions are his. When meetings take place. He sits at the head of the table.
When I watch the Browns press conferences. Or, watch Building the Browns. My impression is the culture they want and what you see and hear from the people inside the building is collaboration. Berry is the GM and does have final say on trades, free agents, and the draft. The roster is his responsibility. However, the process involved in getting to the final decision is collaborative. Many people have input. Watch the latest "Building the Browns."
Stefanski is the head coach. He has the final say on who plays. He does run the offense. He also calls the plays. Again, the process before the final decisions is collaborative. AVP, Callahan, and others have major input. Woods is the DC. He does prepare the defensive game plan. He does call the plays. Again, the process and how final decisions are made is collaborative.
If a king is a great king. Knows all and rarely errors. Then that style of management can work. Belichick.
Collaboration as a culture can bring fresh ideas. The more people involved means empowerment throughout the organization. People feel their input has value. They see opportunity for personal growth. Success and failure becomes shared.
The defense has failed. The blame is on the hands of more than one person. Woods is the scapegoat. He does bear responsibility and he knows it. Woods did not decide who his players would be but he had input. So did others.
Some of the players have not performed. They also bear responsibility.
I believe in the Browns process. It is not perfect and mistakes will happen. But I think the process is good and corrections can be made. There is no way I believe in blowing this up. At the same time when analysis reveals changes are necessary then those decisions must be made clearly.
The defense has to be fixed and some of the coaches and players will need to be replaced.
The defense has failed. The blame is on the hands of more than one person. Woods is the scapegoat. He does bear responsibility and he knows it. Woods did not decide who his players would be but he had input. So did others.
You say that Woods is the scapegoat but you fail to name those who might have contributed to the Browns defensive issues. Is there anyone within the Browns organization objective enough to judge their own contribution to our "failed defense" issue..?
If the Browns don't address the entire problem, we might see a continuation of the same problems and be looking for another DC in a year or two. Are the Browns simply going to look to hire another "scapegoat" or are they going hold themselves accountable as well..?
Changes need to made in the way the Browns judge and select defensive talent and if they don't make those changes, don't count on anything changing even if we hire a different DC.
Quincy Carrier of you-tube recently post a video saying to fire Joe and can almost the entire defense....he suggested to sit back and look at 6 you would keep......so who are your 6?
The Cleveland Browns‘ defense has appeared lost at times this season and the reality is that they might be.
The Cleveland defense was gashed once again on Sunday against the Bills, allowing Buffalo to run away with the 31-23 win behind 171 rushing yards. Browns safety Grant Delpit gave some worrisome insight into the unit after Cleveland fell to 3-7.
“Gotta stop the run. Simple,” Delpit said. “In order to have trust, you’ve got to know what you’re doing. The team has got to have faith that they know what they’re doing. If you don’t know what you’re doing, it never works.”
Delpit gave some further insight into what that statement exactly meant.
“In the run game, you’ve got to know what your fit is. If you don’t know what your fit is or you jump out of your gap, the run is going to bust every time,” Delpit said. “You’ve got to know your fits.”
Along with Delpit, an anonymous Browns defensive player told Jason Lloyd of The Athletic that there has been internal frustration about the lack of adjustments made by defensive coordinator Joe Woods.
Myles Garrett was very vocal prior to the matchup with the Bills that the Browns had to win their next two games to keep their playoff hopes alive. After Sunday’s rough outing, that obviously won’t be the case and the Browns will need some significant help if they want to make the postseason.
“That has always been the idea: win the next two, but it was really keep on winning and keep on stacking. That is still the idea,” Garrett said. “That is still the mindset. That is not going to change. We still feel like we can do so, but we have to put the preparation and have that level of detail to match that excitement and that energy we have with wanting to do it.”
Garrett expressed disappointment with the defense’s performance, especially after a promising start against the Bills. A particular focus for Garrett has been the lack of turnovers forced, which he thinks stems from the team’s mindset in practice.
“It just has to be more of an emphasis in practice,” Garrett said. “It has been a lack of importance when we go out there and practice. It has to be more important to us if we want to force those takeaways in the game. We have goals that we set in practice, and we are not reaching them.”
Garrett Hinted at Lack of Adjustments Previously
Woods’ game plan has been questioned before, particularly by Garrett, who said the Browns didn’t make the proper adjustments when they got railroaded by the Patriots 45-7 last season.
This year, Garrett hinted that the Dolphins knew exactly what the Browns defense would be doing during their Week 10 matchup, which helped Miami rack up nearly 500 yards of offense.
“Honestly, how specific it was towards us (is what stood out),” Garrett said. “It wasn’t like a first 15, it was like a first 60. The way they attacked us was very detailed in what they were trying to do and just had us out of position a lot of the time. Seemed like when we tried to switch things up, they were a step ahead.”
The Browns will face Tom Brady and the Buccaneers next week as they try to get back into the win column.
Woods is gone and probably rightfully so. The D sucks and he's the leader of the D. Perhaps the new DC will work magic w/all these talented, hard-working, accountable defenders?
We'll see about that.
One thing for certain.........the Browns defenders do a lot more pointing w/their fingers then they do w/their thumbs. I'm old school and frankly.......just old. So perhaps I am out of touch w/reality in thinking that it's better to place more accountability on yourself rather than blaming others for your struggles.
I would not be surprised if Garrett asks for a trade after the season. He's Been here 6 years and has 1 playoff appearance to show for it. He is human. The constant losing takes a toll on you. He is a elite pass rusher playing for a team mired in losing Reminds me of watching Claude Humphrey as a youth.
And I wouldn't be surprised if the Browns behind the scenes Are gauging what could they get for MG in a trade.
I am not one who normally believes in firing in the middle of a season.
This year I think a statement needs to happen. The play of the defense reflects poor preparation. And this has been visible since the first game and through a by week.
Inside the ten yard line and Briggs is open by ten yards. How many times does that need to be seen? Coverage on special teams again repeated failure not a one off.
The team needs to be shook up and Woods should be fired now.
I can not remember seeing worse play at DT. Jordan Elliott is not even back up material.
Defensively this team does not know what they are supposed to do. They do not know their assignments.
The locker room is reaching a breaking point on the defensive side of the ball. The cracks were apparent weeks ago. It will be interesting to see how Stefanski handles this moving forward.
From Jason Lloyd's article this morning...
Defensive coordinator Joe Woods will surely be fired at the end of the season, but it may have to happen sooner just to keep the peace — what’s left of it. One of coach Kevin Stefanski’s strengths is his ability to remove emotion from decision-making and not act irrationally to any particular loss. But it’s time to fire Woods before he loses the rest of the locker room.
Safety Grant Delpit hinted players don’t know their assignments. Defensive end Myles Garrett complained creating turnovers has been a lack of importance at practice. Another defensive player told me he’s been frustrated by the lack of scheme changes.
Frankly, I could care less if they fire Woods or not. This season is over in terms of playoffs.
However, once again that the players are pointing fingers rather than pointing thumbs. That is disturbing and it tells me that there really needs to be some personnel moves made to get rid of the bad seeds.
Myles is a great player and it is disappointing that he is voicing these things in public. That's not a good leader. However, he is too good to get rid of.
Delpit sucks. He should shut the hell up and concentrate on how he can improve his crappy play. He can't cover his shadow. We'd be better off w/out him.
The guy not named sounds like JJ. His ass should be sent packing!
Frankly, I could care less if they fire Woods or not. This season is over in terms of playoffs.
However, once again that the players are pointing fingers rather than pointing thumbs. That is disturbing and it tells me that there really needs to be some personnel moves made to get rid of the bad seeds.
Myles is a great player and it is disappointing that he is voicing these things in public. That's not a good leader. However, he is too good to get rid of.
Delpit sucks. He should shut the hell up and concentrate on how he can improve his crappy play. He can't cover his shadow. We'd be better off w/out him.
The guy not named sounds like JJ. His ass should be sent packing!
This post points out exactly what is wrong with the Browns. A 5-sentence rant about the issues on defense and particular players going public. Fire them all except for Garrett because he's too good to get rid of. That is exactly where the problem lies with this team. Certain players get special treatment and others treated like crap. If you're going to have a good leadership HC, this is the absolutely the first thing you have to address in a divided locker room. Everyone is treated the same and the expectation levels are detailed the same to each player. Once you start making exceptions you have lost the team. This team has been lost for 2-years now and that's the problem that needs addressed. This is a HC and FO issue and only can be fixed at that level. You're not going to get the team back by firing some patsy, the players have gone rouge and that's a HC/FO issue.
The locker room is reaching a breaking point on the defensive side of the ball. The cracks were apparent weeks ago. It will be interesting to see how Stefanski handles this moving forward.
From Jason Lloyd's article this morning...
Defensive coordinator Joe Woods will surely be fired at the end of the season, but it may have to happen sooner just to keep the peace — what’s left of it. One of coach Kevin Stefanski’s strengths is his ability to remove emotion from decision-making and not act irrationally to any particular loss. But it’s time to fire Woods before he loses the rest of the locker room.
Safety Grant Delpit hinted players don’t know their assignments. Defensive end Myles Garrett complained creating turnovers has been a lack of importance at practice. Another defensive player told me he’s been frustrated by the lack of scheme changes.
Guess we are lucky we have a teflon HC who has zero responsibility for players not knowing their assignments or poor practices .... because it's the defense and EVERYONE knows that the HC is only ever judged by the offense. And the locker room? It's all peachy - Vers kept telling us all season. So we good.
Pointing out that the DC is using a system that simply doesn't work and is failing to make adjustments must be the players fault. Just listen to the old guy.
This is so stupid. Yes, of course people want Woods gone (including me at the present time), but do you think he is going to answer this question in a PC? This isn't a case of "We have to ask the tough questions". It's shock jock jernalizm and it's ridiculous.
You're right he's not going to answer the question, but they have to ask the question. It is the 10,000lb elephant in the room. It's a subject that cannot be ignored, especially after the comments from the players.
You're right he's not going to answer the question, but they have to ask the question. It is the 10,000lb elephant in the room. It's a subject that cannot be ignored, especially after the comments from the players.
Quoted for truth. I find it odd that someone is quicker to blame a reporter for asking this question than the reason why a reporter needs to ask the question.
There are videos if you want to check out the link.
Who are the top defensive tackles for Browns to target in the 2023 NFL Draft? Share this article 246 shares share tweet email
Cory Kinnan November 17, 2022 4:32 pm ET The Cleveland Browns are in desperate need of defensive tackle help. They will need to overhaul their defensive tackle room with the real possibility that none of the current bodies return in 2023. This can happen via trade or free agency, but more than likely young guys will be added to the room by way of the 2023 NFL Draft.
Luckily for the Browns, this looks like a deep class of defensive tackles as last year’s crop was not. Who are the best defensive tackles in the 2023 NFL Draft? Here are my top ten guys who look to make the jump to the NFL this Spring.
1 Jalen Carter, Georgia
This is not a debate. Georgia’s Jalen Carter may have been the best defensive lineman on a unit a year ago that saw two players get drafted in the first round (including Travon Walker going first overall to the Jacksonville Jaguars).
The 6-foot-3 and 300-pound Bulldog is a menace to opposing offensive linemen and may just be the best player in the entire draft class. Unfortunately for the Browns, who do not have a first round draft pick, Carter will be long off the board before the Browns come on the clock around the 40th pick in the draft.
2 Bryan Bresee, Clemson
Another player likely out of the reach of the Browns is Clemson’s, Bryan Bresee. Contributing on a massive basis since his true freshman year, Bresee has missed time with injuries but is considered a top-15 player in this draft class.
He is long, explosive, and a monster as a pass rusher. Listed at 6-foot-5 and 300 pounds, Bresee racked up four sacks as a true freshman in 2020. This season, Bresee has returned to form after playing just four games a year ago for the Tigers.
Bresee is going to test off the charts at the NFL Scouting Combine and has put himself in a position to fly off the board well before the Browns come on the clock. Barring a trade-up for a defensive tackle into the first round, which is highly unlikely, this list starts at DT3 for the Browns in the 2023 NFL Draft.
3 Byron Young, Alabama
Put this guy at the top of your Cleveland Browns 2023 NFL Draft wishlist. Alabama’s Byron Young is a riser and is a force along the Crimson Tide defensive front. He can play all the way out to five-tech, has most of his reps inside at three-tech, and wreaks havoc from wherever he is aligned.
Just this past weekend against Ole Miss, Young racked up 11 total tackles, two sacks, two tackles for loss, a pass knocked down at the line of scrimmage, and a forced fumble. The 6-foot-3 and 292-pound defensive tackle is a bull in a china shop.
His hands are incredibly refined, knowing how to construct a pass rush plan, and he possesses a great deal of explosiveness in his lower half. As a run defender, Young has heavy hands and drive to create movement off of the line of scrimmage, and does a great job to keep his frame clear to two-gap at a high level.
Circle, star, highlight, and underline his name. It would be thrilling to see Young in the Brown and Orange next season.
4 Johnny Newton, Illinois
As a redshirt sophomore, Illinois defensive tackle Johnny Newton may not even declare. However, he is explosive, powerful, and has a red-hot motor that makes him a threat to get to the quarterback every time he lines up between the stripes.
His body type is a bit unusual, as he is a shorter defensive tackle, but this plays to his advantage as his pad level matches his center of gravity. An athletic freak, Newton can track down quarterbacks across formations and shows a great deal of nuance with his hands as well.
Explosive, powerful, and refined, Newton may just be the best-kept secret in this 2023 NFL Draft class. Could he trade in one orange helmet for another? We have to wait and see if he is set to declare or not.
5 Mazi Smith, Michigan
The athleticism of Mazi Smith has been well-documented, falling as the top player on Bruce Feldman’s Freak List this past offseason.
Feldman found that Smith can bench 325 pounds 22 times (the NFL Scouting Combine uses 225 pounds), can close grip bench press 550 pounds, and has jumped to a massive 44 inches in his vertical jump. While he still has some refining to do on the field, Smith’s athleticism shows up between the lines.
He is a hard man to move off of the ball when taking on doubles, possesses powerful and heavy hands when landing punches on the man across from him, and offers the ability to line up all over the defensive line for the Wolverines.
Smith has already put together solid tape against Penn State and Michigan State, but his biggest test is ahead of him as Michigan gets set to take on Ohio State next week.
6 Gervon Dexter, Florida
Florida defensive tackle Gervon Dexter is one of the most physically gifted guys in the class. However, there is not much awareness and refinement to play the actual position at this point. He came into the season relying heavily on his explosive traits, and he is doing more of the same in 2022.
Dexter still relies only on his bull rush and a long arm to win as a pass rusher without much understanding of how to counter or replace hands out of his frame. While he has all of the explosiveness in the world, Dexter needs to play with more urgency off of the snap and speed up his first step.
At the end of the day, Dexter is going to test off the charts at the combine, and that will get him drafted high. We are still waiting, however, for him to put it all together.
7 Siaki Ika, Baylor
Transferring from LSU when Dave Aranda was named head coach in Waco, Texas, Ika has been a mainstay up front. While many have Baylor defensive tackle Siaki Ika higher than I do, the Senior does not move me as much.
He is powerful and strong inside for the Bears, but when he is forced to make a play outside of the phonebooth Ika proves to struggle to get his hands on ball carriers. Ika has room to develop a hotter first step and an ability to execute a pass rush plan with his hands.
For now, Ika has the makings of a player who will have to earn the right to be on the field on third downs at the next level.
8 Keeanu Benton, Wisconsin
Wisconsin defensive tackle moves extraordinarily well for his size. He can win laterally as well as linearly and possesses long arms that he understands how to use to win the leverage battle.
Playing through a few injuries, Benton’s tape has just not been as good this season as it was in 2021. His pad level has begun creeping up, taking away any leverage he can use with his arm length. It just feels as though Benton disappears in big games.
When he is on and healthy, however, Benton is a force as he can convert speed-to-power at a high level and get his massive levers into the chest of the man across from him to drive them back.
Hopefully, we can get some healthy games for Benton to put on tape as the season comes to an end.
9 Brandon Dorlus, Oregon
Oregon’s Brandon Dorlus is not the most physical or biggest defensive tackle in the 2023 NFL Draft class, but he is agile and athletic. His 2021 tape is admittedly better than this season’s, and most of that has to do with his usage along the Oregon defensive line.
This season they are asking Dorlus to play more off of the edge, but his skill set is more geared toward the interior. This versatility, however, makes Dorlus a nice piece for a defensive coordinator to move around, but they will get the most out of him from three-tech through five-tech looks defensively.
10 Colby Wooden, Auburn
A bit of a tweener, Auburn defensive lineman Colby Wooden falls tenth on the list.
With just 32-inch arms, Wooden struggles to win the leverage battle up front. There is not much power in his lower half either, so it is tough sledding for Wooden once he gets into the chest of the man across from him.
The name of the game for Wooden, however, is his alignment versatility. He has played a massive amount of snaps both outside and inside, giving his defensive coordinator a versatile chess piece.
At the end of the day for Wooden, the tools just are not there for him to be a top-shelf 2023 NFL Draft target. He is a bit too small to play inside and not a great athlete to consistently find success outside.
I have read all of the posts about whether to fire Woods, "now or later". I'm not claiming I know what Stefanski should or should not do in this regard but if I had to pick a side I would say now. And here is my thought process on that after reading those posts.
I've seen people claim that we would have more choices at the end of the season. And that would certainly be true IF the Browns were going to try and replace Woods on a permanent basis right now. But that's not the way that works. Any firing that I can recall happening during a season, an interim coach is named to sort of hold down the fort until the end of the season when a permanent coach is hired. So the Browns would have the exact same choices at the end of the season whether they fire Woods now or not.
The next reason I've seen used in regards to waiting is that it would send a message to any potential DC candidate that this team uses knee jerk reactions and that may cause many top candidates to refuse the job. But I think one needs to look at the situation and ask themselves how valid that is? Currently I think the Browns are ranked as the 31st defense in the NFL. That is after ten weeks of play.
At that point I would ask you to consider this. Would any top candidate for DC look at this roster and think he couldn't vastly improve on their performance? Would any top candidate actually believe that it's a knee jerk reaction to fire a DC who has this much talent and has done such a poor job? And lastly would you want this team to hire a new DC that didn't think Woods deserved to be fired based on his job performance and couldn't do a much better job?
So I'm not seeing the downside of him being fired now. On the other hand I'm not sure what would be accomplished by firing him now other than a couple of things. First is that it's becoming painfully obvious that Woods is losing his players. When this sort of thing starts to happen it only gets worse. So the press and the mess is most likely going to fester. Firing Woods now would certainly prevent that situation. And then there's the accountability factor. It would send the strongest message possible that no matter who you are and what level in the pecking order you sit, be it a player or on the coaching staff that you will be held accountable. Something many are questioning in regards to Stefanski at this point in time.
I've never been one that usually supports a coach being fired during the season, but in the case of Woods and the current situation, when weighing all of the factors in play, I support it in this instance.
I think the defense just didn't lose the game for the offense. They played what should be a minimum bar of a game. They did make a couple plays at opportune times, but I expect that out of a defense. No take aways though.
I don't think that performance is anywhere close to saving Woods' job.
When your defense holds its opponent to 17 points during regulation and that ends up being a tie, your D saved your O. The Browns O scored a TD with less than five minutes played in the game. That most likely to score drive by the Browns based on scripted plays. They did not score another TD until there was only 32 seconds left in regulation and only one FG in between.
Yes, the D saved the O yesterday. That's not the way it usually goes but it went that way yesterday.
When your defense holds its opponent to 17 points during regulation and that ends up being a tie, your D saved your O. The Browns O scored a TD with less than five minutes played in the game. That most likely to score drive by the Browns based on scripted plays. They did not score another TD until there was only 32 seconds left in regulation and only one FG in between.
Yes, the D saved the O yesterday. That's not the way it usually goes but it went that way yesterday.
The defense gave up 17 points to the "5-5 Bucs with a declining Tom Brady". Not sure that is a "saving" situation. They didn't blow it.
And had ST been better we wouldn't have had overtime. York left 3 points on the field.
If the O been even average we would have scored 22 points in that game. Here's a link to teams average scores per game. Middle of the pack is 22 points per game. The Browns are averaging 23.9 points per game. Only four teams are averaging less than 17 points per game. The O under performed and the D saved their asses plain and simple.
If the O been even average we would have scored 22 points in that game. Here's a link to teams average scores per game. Middle of the pack is 22 points per game. The Browns are averaging 23.9 points per game. Only four teams are averaging less than 17 points per game. The O under performed and the D saved their asses plain and simple.
And had special teams not missed a kick we would have scored 20 and not gone to OT. I suppose the defense, who played a competent, "saved" special teams.
No take aways, three sacks. It was a good performance, but it was not lights out, it was not saving. They basically did their jobs. Participation trophies don't make someone a champion.
He doesn't even watch the games. He's here to fight, trash the Browns, and fans of the team. He's a freaking troll.
I watched every down of this game. You're lying again. I had no idea giving the D credit for a win was trashing the team. Only in the world of Vers. You're such a sad little man.
Good Lord man. This O went over 55 minutes in the game without finding the end zone. This isn't complicated.
So you paid attention to the silly narrative that the announcers harped on.
In 60 minutes of regulation the Browns were able to score exactly as many TDs as the Bucs did. Does it matter if they are 2 minutes, 20 minutes or 55 minutes apart? Not even close.
The defense played a competent game against a "declining Brady" and you want to argue that they saved the offenses butts. Good thing the defense scored to keep up with the Bucs.
So you paid attention to the silly narrative that the announcers harped on.
In 60 minutes of regulation the Browns were able to score exactly as many TDs as the Bucs did. Does it matter if they are 2 minutes, 20 minutes or 55 minutes apart? Not even close.
The defense played a competent game against a "declining Brady" and you want to argue that they saved the offenses butts. Good thing the defense scored to keep up with the Bucs.
Yes, the defense is exactly what saved the O's butt. The funny things is you basically said the same thing yourself. It was the D that held the Bucs to 17 points. And people can talk about silly narratives all they like if it makes them feel better that this O looked like crap in the scoring department. I guess when you can't score a TD for almost four complete quarters people have to convince themselves of anything they can grab onto in order to make themselves feel better.
Salvaging the defense: Playing stay or go for every member of Joe Woods' unit
Cory Kinnan December 13, 2022 9:31 am ET
There is no other way to cut it, the defensive unit of the Cleveland Browns has been putrid in 2022. While their run defense is no longer historically bad, it is still the worst run defense in the NFL, and the Browns have been just average at stopping the pass as well. While they may rank as a middle-of-the-road pass defense, blown coverages have marred a talented group of defensive backs.
This defense, led by Joe Woods, falls 28th in the NFL in EPA per play, 14th against the pass in the same metric, and dead last against the run this season. Outside of Defensive Player of the Year candidate Myles Garrett, this unit does not have a single other high-profile player playing up to their name.
Changes are going to be made this off-season. How much overhaul will this side of the ball see? We play a game of Stay or Go here. Who will be on the roster by the time roster cuts next summer are complete and who will not?
Defensive coordinator Joe Woods is a lame duck for the rest of 2022. Everybody within the building knows it, everybody in the fanbase knows it, and Woods himself probably knows he will be looking for another gig this off-season. There are plenty of qualified candidates out there to take Woods’ job from former Miami Dolphins’ head coach Brian Flores to Ryan Walters at the college level. There is too much talent and too many players who are locked in for salary cap purposes for this defense to be performing as poorly as they are.
Only four more weeks until changes start to come down.
Defensive Ends
Myles Garrett: Stay Does this one even need any more detail? He is a Defensive Player of the Year candidate year in and year out who consistently gives you an average of a sack per game.
Jadeveon Clowney: Go Clowney’s second one-year deal is expiring this offseason, and it would be shocking to see him sign a third one in Cleveland. He is friends with quarterback Deshaun Watson, so that could have some pull for Clowney, but he’s likely out the door.
Alex Wright: Stay Wright was thrown into the fire as a rookie coming out of a Group of Five program. He did not get any leeway or ramp up to seeing the field due to the injuries of Clowney. Entering year-two, and his first full off-season in an NFL program, Wright may be asked to start opposite Garrett in 2023.
Isaiah Thomas: Stay Thomas has locked down a rotational spot in the future. For a seventh round pick, Thomas has already out-played his draft slot and will get every chance to hold down that post next season. It’s early, but it looks like the Browns got a good one in Thomas for where he was selected.
Chase Winovich: Go After swapping Mack Wilson for Winovich, this was a low-risk, no-harm trade made by both the Browns and the Patriots over the summer. Both players will likely hit the open market as neither has proven to be a consistent contributor who demands snaps and a new contract.
Defensive Tackles
Jordan Elliott: Go It has been three long years of the Elliott experience as he has failed to make a consistent impact for the Cleveland defense. There is a chance the Browns can flip him for a pick this off-season, but more than likely Elliott will enter training camp on the outside of the bubble looking in.
Taven Bryan: Stay on a conditional basis Proving to be a consistent pocket pusher in the passing game over the past few weeks, Bryan returning on a rotational basis for the Browns may not be the worst idea as they look to overhaul the entire room. He should not see starter reps, but Bryan is proving he can contribute in a specific role.
Perrion Winfrey: Stay Winfrey is here to stay. He has seen significant snaps over the past three weeks and is starting to leave his mark on the field. After a rough start to his NFL career in Cleveland, Winfrey is beginning to find his footing and make an impact in the defensive trenches for the Browns. He looks like the only piece in the room that is safe to return next season.
Tommy Togiai: Go Togiai has already lost all of his snaps over the past three weeks to Winfrey and Ben Still. It seems highly unlikely he has a roster spot in 2023 as he has failed to look worthy of a 53-man slot on any of the 32 teams in the league. Togiai has been one of the very worst defensive tackles in all of football this season for the Browns.
Ben Stille: Go Added off of the Dolphins’ practice squad a few weeks ago, Stille will enter the season as a restricted free agent. This means the Browns have a chance to retain him for cheap. As they overhaul the defensive tackle room, however, Stille is going to have competition for a roster spot next summer.
Linebackers
Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah: Stay This one is a no-brainer. Owusu-Koramoah has been one of the few flashing defenders this season and will be back without a second thought.
Anthony Walker Jr.: Stay Tearing his quad early in the season, the Browns and Walker Jr. may be in luck by the time the offseason rolls around. Given the timing, Walker Jr. could be ready to roll by training camp. Given the injury to Takitaki and the need for a solid veteran leader amid an offseason of change, bringing Walker Jr. back would do nothing but positive things for this franchise.
Sione Takitaki: Go This marks three seasons in a row where the Browns have seen a significant contributor suffer a long recovery time injury near the end of the season. First, it was Olivier Vernon and Takk McKinley. Now this year, Sione Takitaki suffered an ACL injury a week ago. The Browns have not re-signed the other two, meaning Takitaki may be on the move as well.
Jacob Phillips: Go Phillips has battled the injury bug each and every season of his NFL career, and when he was not particularly stellar on the field. The Browns more than likely end the Phillips experiment this offseason.
Reggie Ragland: Go Sitting in as a stop-gap player after the Browns suffered three season-ending injuries at the position, Ragland is a long shot to make not just the Browns’ roster, but a roster in general.
Tony Fields II: Stay Fields II has found a role in base packages and has played well when he has seen the field. With two years left on his rookie deal, Fields II has the inside track to a roster spot next year.
Jordan Kunaszyck: Stay One cannot understate the impact Kunaszyk has had on special teams units. He has even found snaps on defense. As a free agent this summer, Kunaszyk will be cheap to retain, and a cost the Browns should be willing to pay.
Cornerbacks e)
Denzel Ward: Stay There is no way out of Ward’s contract one year into his extension. Besides, he played like a top-five cornerback a year ago, so there is hope that a new defensive coordinator and a new scheme can bring Ward, who is just 25 years old, back to his old form (and closer to the line of scrimmage).
Greg Newsome II: Stay Throw out year two of Newsome’s tape after an All-Rookie season a year ago. Playing predominantly in the slot, the Browns need to get him back on the boundary. This must be a priority of the next defensive coordinator.
Martin Emerson: Stay The Browns have found a player in third round rookie Martin Emerson. He came in from day one and took all of A.J. Green and Greedy Williams’ snaps and did not look back. He isn’t going anywhere.
A.J. Green: Stay While Green’s contract is set to expire, he is an exclusive rights free agent, meaning the Browns have the opportunity to retain him for very cheap. They love their depth at defensive back, so expect Green to return next season.
Greedy Williams: Go Williams is an unrestricted free agent, so it feels unlikely he returns after losing all of his defensive snaps and even being among the healthy scratches this past weekend against the Bengals.
Thomas Graham Jr.: Go Graham Jr. is also an exclusive rights free agent, so he could return next summer and battle it out in training camp. His roster spot, however, is not solid as he will be a fringe-53 player by the time cutdowns start coming in for the Browns.
Safeties
John Johnson III: Go Perhaps the biggest disappointment over the past two seasons, John Johnson III has not lived up to the hype of the best safety available that he was two years ago. The Browns can save nearly $10 million by cutting him with a Post-June 1 designation (as they did tight end, Austin Hooper, a year ago), so expect general manager Andrew Berry to do that.
Grant Delpit: Stay The Browns cannot turn over every starting position, and Delpit has flashed enough to keep his job for one more season. It will be a contract year for Delpit as well, so he will have much to prove for the Browns and himself.
D’Anthony Bell: Stay There are not three better special teams players on the roster in Cleveland than D’Anthony Bell. He is under contract for two more seasons as well, so do not expect the Browns to move on from cheap and productive players anytime soon.
Ronnie Harrison: Go It was shocking when he returned on a one-year deal in the first place. Don’t expect that to happen again.
I would rate bryan more than a conditional stay. He has played well enough to be a contributor in whatever role he plays.
As for college DT's, I would put pass rush at the bottom of the list. Sure, everybody wants that, but what we need most is the guy who can own his 3 yards of dirt against a double team.
We need the "unproductive" guy who clogs up his ground and makes someone else productive.
Our D is not that far from becoming much better. 2 good DT's that can stop the run, a LB and S and that might be all we need. On O we need another WR to complement AC and we should be adding a tackle. We should replace Joe Woods and probably the ST coach. JMO
This is just my opinion on who should stay or go and I obviously have no say or influence on what the Browns should do, but the following is where I disagree w/Cory Kinnan on.
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Sione Takitaki: Go
I think Takitaki played well and our D improved w/him. I would keep him. I might not keep Walker. He's older and I think he is a bit overrated.
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Grant Delpit: Stay
This will not happen because he was a high draft choice of Berry's, but I think this guy is awful. He can't cover. He bites on the run way too often and is so slow to react.
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Taven Bryan: Stay on a conditional basis
I can see what he is saying about "on a conditional basis," but I think he has been pretty bad. I thought he was a better player than he has shown. I was wrong.
I find the D to be quite an enigma. You are correct that the positions you have pointed out need upgraded. But it just seems odd how they played terrible at the beginning of last season then came on to play much better. This season they looked horrible for the fist several games and now look at least respectable. All with the same holes in the D. It' been a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde look that I can't seem to find any reasonable explanation for.
Pit you're right in your assessment and that's the way it's been for 2 years in a row. I think it's coaching, and we can't have a repeat of this next year. If this D played well the first 7 games of the year we would have 3 more wins now and be fighting for the division.
Pit you're right in your assessment and that's the way it's been for 2 years in a row. I think it's coaching, and we can't have a repeat of this next year. If this D played well the first 7 games of the year we would have 3 more wins now and be fighting for the division.
This is a very Browns dilemma...are Ward and Delpit really this bad? Or are they a product of their surroundings and coaching and scheme?
Willie I've been asking myself the same thing and we really have no way to find out until we get a new DC. Ward has played well in the past though that might be something to go on but Delpit and some of the other guys we don't know.
I think Woods is gone, but I feel that fans put too much focus on the coaching and not enough on the players. I have shown videos of the scheme being fine, but players making mental mistakes or missing tackles. Here is another example. It's kind of hard to see, but watch Delpit on this TD pass from Burrow to Irwin. He standing around the 34 yard line and just outside the hash marks. He comes flying up to stop the run and doesn't offer any deep help to the Emerson. It's beyond terrible. That is something they teach safeties in middle school. That's not poor coaching. That is a bonehead play by Delpit. He makes plays like this over and over and over.
The video of the TD pass I showed was not Man coverage.
I think I have seen posts saying we should play more man coverage and now it is we were playing too much man coverage. It's hard to keep this all straight. I did not have a problem w/either Ward [mostly] or Newsome [occasionally] playing Man coverage on Chase, but we should have rolled our coverage [a safety] towards Chase. If we did not roll our coverage towards him, that would be a bad choice by the coach. I'm not sure that we didn't, but it sounds like JJ is saying we did not, but he seems to pass the buck a lot.
I will say that I saw Burrow throw a dart for a TD to Chase into an unbelievably tight window between Ward and JJ in that game. One of, if not the very best throws I have seen all season long.
If we did not roll our coverage towards him, that would be a bad choice by the coach. I'm not sure that we didn't, but it sounds like JJ is saying we did not, but he seems to pass the buck a lot.
Pit you're right in your assessment and that's the way it's been for 2 years in a row. I think it's coaching, and we can't have a repeat of this next year. If this D played well the first 7 games of the year we would have 3 more wins now and be fighting for the division.
This is a very Browns dilemma...are Ward and Delpit really this bad? Or are they a product of their surroundings and coaching and scheme?
I was just wondering that as a whole... is the defense bad because of lack of talent in key areas or is it coaching/scheme.....
Blaming the fact that 2 of 3 really good receivers didn't play as the reason for the failures of our defensive backfield.......that's creative if anything.
So is he saying that the injuries of the Bengals WR's gave the Browns such a huge advantage in defending the pass that they had no idea what to do with that?
I'm not sure this is something you want to say out loud. "In game adjustments are befuddling!"
Fireable statement. I guess the analytics dept didn't account for that on the play sheet. Or this guy is an idiot and part of the problem all year. smfh
So, the original game plan was to let J'MC run free all over our secondary. These other two would have made it worse. And we certainly played stupid D all day in the secondary. Plenty of blame. This is one of the dumbest things I have ever heard.
Agreed. My God, no wonder the secondary has been so bad. Shouldn't Joe Woods have put his .02 cents in when those 2 WR's went out. Our D may need more than 1 or 2 changes. I'd like to see a guy that has a D philosophy like Rex Ryan here. Rex wouldn't do because of his personality and probable desire to be the HC which I wouldn't want to see.
I think firing coaches during the year is stupid. I realize it does occur, but it's like you are conceding the season. I think Woods and other defensive coaches will be fired after the season. If not, then you will have a legit cause to complain about.
I think firing coaches during the year is stupid. I realize it does occur, but it's like you are conceding the season. I think Woods and other defensive coaches will be fired after the season. If not, then you will have a legit cause to complain about.
Really Vers, you're going to use that excuse of firing a coach mid-season is like conceding the season? You're part of the same group that has been plastering this forum with comments like the Browns knew the season was lost when Watson was suspended longer than they wanted. So, it's ok in your book to concede an entire season before you've played a single game after having an entire off season to address the QB issue that you "KNEW" back in March that Watson was going to be suspended for 4-17 games but it's balsamy to suggest firing an underperforming DC mid-season because that would be deemed as conceding the season and stupid? Only on this forum could you read such a thing.
Keeping a coach until the end of the year who is destined to be canned anyway is like a failed marriage where the parents decide to stay together "for the good of the kids". I've never seen either one work to any real benefit. Everyone figures out what is going on and denying the inevitable is a folly.
Let's break this down just a little bit. Everyone but the overly optimistic dreamers know the Browns aren't making the playoffs at this point. Most everyone knows that the rest of season is dedicated to getting watson up to speed. This team is in next year mode as we speak no matter the public relations BS we'll hear trying to fill the seats in the stadium and sell merchandise. Most everyone understood this when the Browns were 4-7 and watson took over as the starting QB. With Brissett as the starter and the result being a 4-7 record, they weren't going to the playoffs.
So how would firing a defensive coach be "conceding the season"? What season? The goal of every NFL team every season is to make the playoffs. That gives you at least a chance no matter how slim that chance is to win the SB. Once you know you aren't making the playoffs many teams fully understand that the goals set for that season are over. No matter what happens to the defensive side of the coaching staff the only real goal the Browns have at this juncture, getting watson up to speed for next season would see zero impact and thus no impact on the goals set for the rest of the season.
I'd like to see another DC at the helm and see if we can figure out who we have that is good for the future...the wash-rinse-repeat coaching of the current DC leaves me wondering who is a keeper and who is a fake-r.
I actually agree with Vers to the point that I don't think a new DC would really accomplish much in regards to play on the field for the rest of the season. Some possibly but not much. Each week in the regular season in theory at least, most of the week is spent breaking down film on your opponent and finding ways to exploit their weaknesses. How to neutralize their strengths. That would vastly limit the time a new DC would have to teach a new scheme.
The main thing I think it would accomplish is sending a message to everyone, the coaching staff, the players and the fan base that incompetence would no longer be tolerated and the time for accountability is now. I see that as a bigger gain than anything the Browns would lose making such a move.
Keeping a coach until the end of the year who is destined to be canned anyway is like a failed marriage where the parents decide to stay together "for the good of the kids". I've never seen either one work to any real benefit. Everyone figures out what is going on and denying the inevitable is a folly.
That's a pretty decent analogy. I was simply going to say that "conceding the season" only matters if there's still something to fight for, otherwise, it is simply recognizing the true state of reality.
I've never really been a fan of in-season firings, either, but at some point you have to see there is no value - or point - in keeping the charade going. And, let's face it, once you know the firing will be happening, keeping them on is nothing more than a charade.
Right now it doesn't make much sense to fire Woods til the end of the season. For one thing your search is limited to your new DC being someone who is currently available, plus your new DC is going to want to install his own scheme and with so many of our players Free Agents after the season, with quite a few possibly moving on, you would be wasting your time. On top of all that we don't know for sure that KS and his entire coaching staff will be here next year, it depends on how Haslam views this season and the team going forwards.
By the same token, it doesn't make any more sense to keep him. It's literally just a coin flip at this point.
There is also the question of how much say does Stefanski actually get in the hiring/firing of the DC. It's well documented that in accepting the head coaching job he agreed to accepting some coaching decisions would not be his. There's little reason to think that choice of DC isn't among those.
So are you suggesting the Browns should have kept Hue Jackson and Todd Haley the entire season when they were fired? That the team didn't look better after Gregg Williams was named interim HC? I'm not sure I follow.
Don't really agree with most of that. Your choices aren't limited -- your window is larger to entertain more choices -- an interim would be installed and start 'unbreaking' some of things that have unraveled under Joe's leadership. Things that need fixed regardless of the next DC. Furthermore, if a DC was hired immediately I don't at all feel it would be a waste because so many are moving on. He would be laying down foundation of his leadership to those who will remain.
Rish, you gotta stop believing what people like steve say. I wasn't part of the group that said the Browns were conceding the season. I tried to stay out of that argument because it was over the top. I don't think the Browns were playing Watson over Jacoby because they were conceding the season. I think they know he is a better qb and gives us our best chance to win games. People look at things through such a narrow window on here. Does anyone ever note what other teams are doing or have done? Jacoby, Deshawn, and Baker were all available at some point or points since last season. How has the rest of the league treated the three QBs? Jesus guys! Watson is by far the superior qb of the bunch. You play him because he is the best.
Let's just make VanPelt the interim. Not like Stefanski is using him much. Any full time coaching attention might help the defense which seems neglected, and some bad practices are getting repeated. Same garbage in, garbage out. Off the wall decisions and outside the box choices seem better than dialing up more of the same defensive misery each week. Set some standard for the coaching which seems woefully lacking. Stats and record agree that our choices have proven to be unacceptable. Outcome driven and obvious proof.
After almost two years of not being on the field are you seriously saying he would have been the QB to give the Browns the best chance of winning at that point in time at over Brissett? Does either his first or second start give you any sign that is true? Vers let's be honest here, we all knew that watson would be very rusty. You yourself were praising Brissett's play and rightfully so. So are you actually saying that anyone that knows the game the way you do thought that at the time watson began starting his play would be better than Brissetts?
Now don't misunderstand what I'm saying here. Out of the three QB's you listed, Baker, Brissett and watson, watson is certainly the best QB by far. I believe anyone trying to dispute that may actually fit the moniker you broadly throw around which doesn't apply to many you accuse of it, "Baker Boys". But if you're actually trying to claim that an almost two years removed from the game watson gave the Browns a better chance of winning at that point in time, I think the only one you're fooling may be yourself.
Over the long haul you are certainly correct. But we both know that practice and studying game film is nothing that can prepare you for the speed of the game. And while watson did look improved last week it was obvious from his patting and holding the ball that his ability to quickly read the field is not yet back to its normal capacity. Only time and playing the game can fully restore that. That's the process that's currently under way. If he continues to progress as he did from his first start to his second start, things will go well by the end of the season. There's every reason to believe he may be back to what he was before. But nobody who knows the game to any extent expected to see that right out of the gate and knew at the time him starting wouldn't give the Browns the best chance to win.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what it is you're trying to say here.
I'd like to see another DC at the helm and see if we can figure out who we have that is good for the future...the wash-rinse-repeat coaching of the current DC leaves me wondering who is a keeper and who is a fake-r.
There's a lot of people on here I don't read, and there are a lot of people on here I skim through. I'm open minded to having my mind changed, but for the most part my opinion is what it is. It is my own. I am a harsh critic when I don't like something, and I'm probably public enemy number one on here for my takes and negativity. I'm ok with that. Well, maybe public enemy number two behind you. I'm still ok with that.
I respect your opinion on Stefanski. You, Milk, Memphis, and a few others all have solid takes on why we should stick with Stefanski. I wish I could see it your way, but I just can't get there. We are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. It's like that co-worker that everyone loves, but when you get a chance to work with that person, you are surprised they had such glowing praise from their peers. You think to yourself "maybe I'm missing something; how can this many people feel differently than I do"...a year later, they are gone because their incompetence finally impacted someone that mattered. That's the way I feel about Stefanski.
As far as firing coaches mid season, I don't think it's a big deal, especially if it is not at the head coaching position.
Like I said before, I'm okay w/us disagreeing. You don't insult or make up stories that are not true about what I've said. I get irritated sometimes when I read your posts because they are too negative for me, but I quickly move on. You and lead are kinda similar in some ways w/how critical you can be of certain things. I can't live that way, but I'm okay w/you guys being that way.
I love Jacoby and hate saying this, but you gotta play your best players. Watson is a better player. We were 4 and 7 and did not know how Watson would play. You gotta play him. He was way worse in that first game than I imagined, but you still should play your best players. Some may think that JB is better than Watson. That's fine. Hell, I know there are some who think Baker is better than both. It is what it is, but I'm w/the Browns on this one that they have to roll w/Watson.
I'd like to see another DC at the helm and see if we can figure out who we have that is good for the future...the wash-rinse-repeat coaching of the current DC leaves me wondering who is a keeper and who is a fake-r.
Howard is the guy who would replace Woods.
How would that tell you anything?
Why would Howard have to be the default guy the replace Woods?
So are you suggesting the Browns should have kept Hue Jackson and Todd Haley the entire season when they were fired? That the team didn't look better after Gregg Williams was named interim HC? I'm not sure I follow.
Nope, not at all. Earlier in the season i was all for letting Woods go but with season almost over I don't see much benefit from letting him go "now". As I said earlier with the way the season has played out who knows if KS and his staff is even going to be here next year and also whose to say the guy KS would like to replace Woods with is even available right now. It's not like you can just sign a coach off another team during the season. The only way I would do it right now is if we still had a viable shot at the playoffs or if KS thought one of our current assistants was a contender to be our next DC.
I looked at the resumes of our defensive staff earlier this year when the Fire Joe Woods threads started. It's an unimpressive list. I will not be surprised to see multiple changes to the staff. I also think Howard needs to go for sure.
Yep, one of the first things I do when the Browns hire a coach...I look up the coaches history and record.
I'm a believer in..'experience'..and hiring a coaching staff that are 'experienced'...
In Cleveland, those doing the hiring (of coaches) don't seem to be impressed with 'experience'...plus, we have a Head Coach who doesn't seem to have any interest in the defensive side of the ball.
I'd like to see another DC at the helm and see if we can figure out who we have that is good for the future...the wash-rinse-repeat coaching of the current DC leaves me wondering who is a keeper and who is a fake-r.
Howard is the guy who would replace Woods.
How would that tell you anything?
Why would Howard have to be the default guy the replace Woods?
Most everything read over the last year or two is Howard was the key assistant on the defensive side of the ball.
It might not have had to be him, but it probably would have been him.
Yep, one of the first things I do when the Browns hire a coach...I look up the coaches history and record.
I'm a believer in..'experience'..and hiring a coaching staff that are 'experienced'...
In Cleveland, those doing the hiring (of coaches) don't seem to be impressed with 'experience'...plus, we have a Head Coach who doesn't seem to have any interest in the defensive side of the ball.
I don't buy that. Woods has had a lot of experience. He just isn't good.
Maybe a bit off topic, but I think Woods was a hot black candidate and us hiring him was as much about him being here as a DC, then hired away to be a head coach for which I think we might get a draft pick.
As for experience, what works for you? Are you looking for guys who have been DC all over the league? That could be important, or it could mean the guy can't hold the job anywhere.
I hope we consider Jim leohnard. He is light, if having any NFL coaching experience, but he has done a great job in college, and he did play in the NFL 10 or so years. I think being a former player is valuable experience that can override having a lot of actual nfl coaching experience.
It would be interesting to see who Leohnard played for over his career...head coaches, DC's, and defensive position coaches. He obviously learned from those people. He wasn't born a good defensive coordinator.
Browns defense: Man vs zone coverage numbers might surprise you The Browns are very good in zone coverage
By JaredMueller@JaredKMueller Dec 16, 2022, 7:26am EST 1 Comment / 1 New
For some fans, all that matters is that the Cleveland Browns are 5-8 and all but eliminated from the NFL playoffs. For those fans, the last month of the season will be spent only bemoaning what could have been, should have been and wondering what changes will be made.
For other fans, understanding the specifics about the team will stay important despite the record.
The Browns defense has been the biggest talking point most of the season. The team didn’t make it better with DB coach Jeff Howard’s ridiculous statement on Thursday.
One of the bigger talking points around the defense has been the coverages that they use. While overly simplified, zone vs man has become the new “3-4 vs 4-3 defense” discussion. Many fans believe that man defense, getting up in the receiver’s face and taking one on one responsibility is both the best way to play defense and the best for Cleveland’s defensive backs.
Whether it is because of the preference of DC Joe Woods or what the analytic data says, the Browns have been playing much more zone defense than man. While that may not be surprising, what might be is how much better the team is in zone:
Quote
Vikings, Falcons, Rams, and Lions are the only teams giving up more than 8 yards per attempt in zone and man coverages. pic.twitter.com/VTrQNGtpcd
— Amr Gabr (@amrgaabr) December 14, 2022
Cleveland is a top-10 passing defense, at least in yards per attempt (an important stat), playing zone defense and tied for the sixth-worst defense in yards per attempt while playing man coverage. There may be explanations for the defense but it is interesting to see how few teams play man coverage even 40% of the time with only one team playing it half of the time.
Based on the data, Woods is smart to have his team in zone coverage two-thirds of the time despite narratives that players like CB Denzel Ward would be better in more man looks.
Yep, one of the first things I do when the Browns hire a coach...I look up the coaches history and record.
I'm a believer in..'experience'..and hiring a coaching staff that are 'experienced'...
In Cleveland, those doing the hiring (of coaches) don't seem to be impressed with 'experience'...plus, we have a Head Coach who doesn't seem to have any interest in the defensive side of the ball.
I love Jacoby and hate saying this, but you gotta play your best players. Watson is a better player. We were 4 and 7 and did not know how Watson would play. You gotta play him. He was way worse in that first game than I imagined, but you still should play your best players. Some may think that JB is better than Watson. That's fine. Hell, I know there are some who think Baker is better than both. It is what it is, but I'm w/the Browns on this one that they have to roll w/Watson.
And I'm fine with your opinion. But then to reach that conclusion you would have to believe that the coaching staff had no idea how badly watson would perform so they started him because he gave them the best chance to win at that time. If Stefanski truly believed that problems may run deeper than I had originally thought.
Yes, I said and agreed with you, watson is certainly the best QB of the group, he just wasn't the best at the time after being out of the game for almost two years. At 4-7 it was time to get watson acclimated and up to speed in preparation for next season.
Maybe a bit off topic, but I think Woods was a hot black candidate and us hiring him was as much about him being here as a DC, then hired away to be a head coach for which I think we might get a draft pick.
peen...I posted what.."I BELIEVE IN"..when looking for suitable coaching candidates, regardless if you are hiring an offensive or defensive coordinator or an O or D assistant coach..
You can disagree with MY OPINION if you want...but don't be surprised if I discount you take.
That said, if the Browns' HARVARD BOYS were more concerned about hiring a defensive coordinator who was BLACK, with the idea that (in your words peen)..."hiring him was as much about him being here as a DC, then hired away to be a head coach for which I think we might get a draft pick".
I would fire the person responsible for that line of thinking.
Should the Browns have hired Joe Woods as their Defensive Coordinator...based on the possibility that the Browns might reap some return value (in the form of a draft pick) if another team hired Woods to be their NEW Head Coach..?....BECAUSE HE WAS BLACK..?
When the Browns, because of ANALYTICS, put the color of their Defensive Coordinator's skin ahead of his ability to perform his duties as the Browns Defensive Coordinator...OUR FRANCHISE IS DOOMED with Haslam and Depodesta leading the Browns franchise...imo.
Should the Browns have hired Joe Woods as their Defensive Coordinator...based on the possibility that the Browns might reap some return value (in the form of a draft pick) if another team hired Woods to be their NEW Head Coach..?....BECAUSE HE WAS BLACK..?
When the Browns, because of ANALYTICS, put the color of their Defensive Coordinator's skin ahead of his ability to perform his duties as the Browns Defensive Coordinator...OUR FRANCHISE IS DOOMED with Haslam and Depodesta leading the Browns franchise...imo.
/hire
It was the NFL, not analytics that made skin color a factor in choosing individuals for these positions.... by rewarding those who consider and hire minorities and/or punishing those who don't. No one said the Browns FO put skin color ahead of ability, but the NFL (rightly IMO) made it necessary to use skin color as part of the equation. Why would they not consider the potential for a future draft pick in the hiring process? Again, no one is implying that we choose someone of lesser ability.
Throw I understand what you mean but I was just targeting what I feel is our most glaring weakness. To become a better team better decisions need to be made. The bad decisions cost us the jets game and how many blown coverages did we have that cost us wins? I said it before we're not that far off but we need to make the right personnel moves for next season to address our weak areas. Oh, and a new DC wouldn't hurt either.
Still too many yards on the ground. Has to be the #1 priority this offseason or we will be in the same boat next year.
I agree. I’ve said it before, we have to make the DL interior a top priority this off-season. Winfrey has shown up lately, but we need to draft/sign a stud DT.
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