A lot of the threads seem to have comments and discussion about how good a HC KS is - I figured it was worth putting them all in one place. Feel free to cut and paste any other posts to this thread rather than repeat comments.

For me KS has been good for Cleveland. Whether he is a good / great HC remains to be seen in my eyes. He has certainly had a tremendous and positive impact on the offense - and on that side of the ball he gets a lot of positives. However - Head Coach is much, much more than being a good OC. I mean you can simply point to the record and say you are what your record says you are - but I think it's much deeper than that.

Offense:

+ I think nearly everyone would agree that KS has the ability to script brilliant offensive plays to start games. The team comes out firing on all cylinders in the majority of games.
+ Both with Baker and Brissett - I think it's fair to say KS got the most out of them. Forget the debates on Baker himself and how limited he was/is - 2020 KS managed to get Baker to play/execute at an elite level for the final 9 games of the season. This season I think he has Brissett playing above what most expected. A++
+ During covid - KS distinguished himself by being methodical, organized and able to overcome the challenges Covid brought. I think we probably all agree that it's nice to have an intelligent guy who presents well in pressers etc ... sure he is very vanilla in those pressers but I have zero problem with that.
- I like his scheme - I think it will work very well with an Uber talent at QB like Watson should be. Even with JB our offensive ranking this year is top 10 which is insanely good with a career back up.

- Whether it was it was available talent - he has repeatedly made games close by getting ultra conservative, or we've lost games because we played not to lose. Maybe he has learned from that. I'd certainly argue that the argument that we had a limited QB forced KS to play conservative when we had a big lead is very faulty: 1. How did we get the 'big' lead if our team and QB were so restricted. 2. PA passes and roll outs were some of BM's most effective tools. Either way - I think many will have seen this and agree this is a negative.
- Similarly there has been a history of a lack of adjustment. Teams seem to have regularly made half time adjustments - and between conservativism and lack of adjustment, we don't seem to play the rest of the game to the same elevation as the initial scripted plays. It would be interesting to see where most points are scored over his tenure. I'd bet in most game we score more in the first half for sure.
- 4th down - we seem to be all in on analytics with less attention to the success rate of the team. Calling a high number of 4th downs in some years while having a lower rate success than the rest of the NFL. We also seem to get too cute with pass/run options on occasion. This isn't all the time - we do have success with 4th downs sometimes, but I'd personally like to see more regard to game momentum and situation.... opening drive and a chance to put 3 points on the board or go for a 4th and 3 ... take the 3, take the lead.
- I don't think Chubb is under used ... I would like to see Chubb get 20-23 carries a game, stay fresh for the whole season. Part of that is because Hunt is a beast and can carry the rock without a ton of drop off from NC. However - we've seen too many games at vital moments and our best player is on the sidelines instead of in the game. That to me is an issue. And this year - Hunt who thrives on bunches of carries was being utilized in a way to prevent him getting any sort of rhythm. Maybe the trade request had an impact? But it needs to change. One of the Monday night games both Manning's were blasting KS for this AND for not giving a hurt QB the best chance to succeed.
- Has shown an overwhelming tendency in many games to get pass happy. Less so this year - so maybe another area that's been addressed. But many have commented that when Van Pelt was forced into action as a play caller he did a really good job.
- Many of us have noted in game management issues from time to time. Not often but enough for it to be something to watch for and need improvement.

Defense and Special Teams:

As the HC you are responsible for performance and decisions across all phases of the game. Defense has been an issue this year. It was an issue early in the season last year ... it's no good pointing to statistics that indicate we have a solid D - when we watch the games and lose games because of a lack of communication or ill discipline or Woods going ultra conservative. In addition to our own observations - possibly the most damning commentary on Woods / Stefanski's defense is Kurt Warner (pretty sure it was him and not Peyton) talking about how for the last 2 years the Browns D was so transparent and easy to read/predictable. . . . maybe the counter to this will be the attempt this year to have multiple defenses called pre-snap so adjustments can be made to shifts and player movement .... but that failed so miserably that there is no credit to be given. Talent (DT's and LBs) is a factor. But there must be input form the coaches on the players kept, sought after in FA etc .... if our DT's are all too light to play Woods scheme - how did that happen? It was not accidental, options were available ... I think it's a cop out and an argument of convenience to say the scheme fails because of lack of talent. Add to that - coaching UP talent is also a factor.... it's highly improbable that we just happen to have some of the very worst DT's graded by PFF .... and much more likely that coaching and scheme is playing a factor in what we ask them to do.

On special teams - we've got a similar issue on coaching and talent. Hopefully we have solved the kicking problem that has been around forever.

Leadership

None of us are in the locker room - so any opinion on KS's leadership and motivation is speculation. That said I think most see KS as cerebral and an X's and O's guy - not someone who is firing the team up. We've seen way too many important games where we came out flat... last year despite our our QB issues, we had a chance to make the play offs and we lost 4 of the last 6 and in some games just didn't look up for it. I don't want a 'Rah Rah' guy - but I think part of being a great HC is being able to motivate. Hell Baker and his loud mouth and brashness seems to have provided more motivation in week 1 this year than our HC did ... and we damn nearly lost the game to one of the worst coached teams in the NFL. Personally I feel like the attention and time KS spends as play caller and on offense in general is one of the things limiting him and restricting him as a great HC. Maybe he will get there and keep improving? But again, it's something that very much needs watching.

I don't want to replace KS - but I do think there are some red flags that need paying attention to and areas we need to expect improvement. We have a talented team - very good to elite OL and Running - Cooper is a a very talented WR and genuine #1. DPJ is proving to be an adequate #2. Njoku has come into his own this year before. There are some elevated expectations.

Honest take and I agree with quite a bit of it.

The offense is in good condition and will improve when Watson plays.

The trade to get Cooper and the extension to Njoku has played major dividends.

Special teams has not been good. I don't fault Priefer when a kick is missed or the punter shanks one. However, coverages, blocking, penalty's, blocks fall on Priefer and they have not been good. I do not believe in changes in mid-season unless there is a viable candidate internally.

Although the head coach is ultimately responsible for the entire coaching staff. In today's game the HC must delegate. If his coaches are failing then he must call them to task. That means a meeting saying "this is where we have failed." "What is your plan to fix it?"

When mistakes are repeated. Then he must step in and work with the coordinators to correct the problem. The defense was bad. Changes were made. The last two games showed a big improvement.

Leadership. You are right we are not in the locker room. So, I do not feel any comment is appropriate.

What I will say is: A head coach has to be himself. No matter his style.

I see him as being honest. I think he holds people accountable including himself. He keeps his communication with his players private. I believe that is how it must be and his players respect that.

I don't know for sure because I am not in the locker room. But I do believe Stefanski is respected by the players.

He is three years into a career as a head coach. The team has improved by light years since his hiring. First time head coaches are forced into learning on the job. KS has had to handle some really unusual circumstances. He had to hire a staff. He had to deal with covid. He inherited a quarterback and has had to adjust to back-ups. When you hire a staff. You have to coach them as well. In addition, you have to have patience with them. When it becomes clear you may have to fire and hire another. After three years being in their systems and allowing them to do their job. Perhaps changes maybe necessary.

IMO the real test for KS begins when Watson takes over the position of quarterback. The timing of that change is coming. Along with that change KS needs to look long and hard at his staff. They were given three years. If changes need to be made this off season would be the time.

When Andrew Berry and Kevin Stefanski took over I was optimistic. At the same time I knew what they faced. The previous regimes failed on a grand scale.
I did not see Covid coming. Had no real expectation for Baker. Knew there had to be ups and downs. And there has been.

At the same time given all factors. I am glad KS and AB are leading the Browns. IMO the best is yet to come.

This.

I can see that - but it's also reasonable to say KS has performed well with inferior talent at QB ... I think some are concerned that KS will utilize Watson the same as he has other QB's - but even if that is true the elevated play *should* result in many more wins. jmo

I don't want to get to far ahead.

The Jets just beat the Bills today. The Bucs are obviously not the team everyone expected.

The Dolphins have a good team. But it is not like they can not lose.

So, I am really interested in the next three games. If we can win two and the defense shows signs of improvement and more consistency.

This season could end up being really interesting. Nine games to play and a lot can happen.

The results will dictate what will happen during the off season.

There really are no super teams.

Philly are undefeated which is pretty impressive ... Bills, despite the loss today, are darn close to a super team. KC is a good team and definitely have a great coach.

They are good teams but they are not super teams.

Parity is very real.

While some of his situational play calls may drive me bonkers, I do like Stefanski's gameplans and play calling in general. I think he has given us the most consistent offense we have seen in decades and that is what you need to win in today's NFL.

I am not a Joe Woods fan and maybe there can be some changes on the defensive side, but that remains to be seen as they have put together 2 good games in a row. I'm really trying my hardest to be patient with everything.

Usually I am one that is quick to say let's fire the coach, but I just like what I have seen in Stefanski, sure he has made a lot of mistakes and there will be more. I like the system he has in place and I think he deserves more time. I hope he is able to finish the season strong and is back. The last thing I want to do is fire him, and have to go through another change in scheme and system. To me it feels like we are close, too close to fire another coach and start over.

How many wins to keep his job? 7? more than 7?

I don't want KS gone or anything, however, I don't think he's been a great coach overall. He was the first year for sure, but since then he has been hot and cold. And in comparison to your average rookie HC over his first few years, KS has proven above average, not exceptional.

Something worth keeping in mind - we've had such an incredibly low bar for competence at the HC position before KS arrived, it would easy to think we have the answer just because he is so much better than what we had before. Maybe that's a bit like our QB play - the bar was set so low we (many) were happy to see Baker and prematurely thought he was the answer .... ?

Lolz.

This is his third year.

I mean I know the attention span of today. But he came to Cleveland following Freddie.

John Dorsey, I respected him. However, we had the number one pick in the draft. We all know the history of our atrocious quarterback situation.

Dorsey drafted Baker. He left Allen and Lamar on the table. It has proved to be an epic mistake.

KS walked into a nightmare.

I can understand some criticism. That comes with the job. But let's be real here. Given everything that has happened since KS took over. It is like people are disappointed because a miracle has not taken place in three years.

Look what McDermott and Allen have done in Buffalo. Have they been to the Super Bowl?

You can not microwave a team to the Super Bowl.

If progress is being made when you hire a first time head coach. You have to be patient. Look at every head coach who has lasted in the NFL.

Their record is never spotless.

So he regressed as a HC since his first season? Let's look at what he's done at the QB position. It's obvious for anyone who doubted it that he made the most out of Baker. People can place the blame for last year on Baker or Stefanski but for anyone trying to be subjective Baker was injured last year. So you can only objectively look at his last healthy season as an accurate gauge. 11-5 and a playoff appearance.

As of this moment he's running a very productive O with a QB who is a perennial back up that has never produced like this his entire career. Now people can say what they want about the defense. But damned near every HC in the NFL comes from either a strong O or strong D background. One of those two is what they specialize in. Of course as time goes on they become more adept on the other side of the ball. But Stefanski isn't a seasoned HC like an Andy Reid is. That comes with time and experience.

That's why teams like the steelers are successful organizations. They allow their coaches time to season and mature. That's why we all know names like Chuck Noll, Bill Cowher and Mike Tomlin. What we see now is a HC who has the potential to some day be mentioned in the same breath as those three others. But when watching the opinions of some, if those opinions are followed we may never know. Some people didn't learn their lesson with Bill Belichick. A lot of people wanted him ran out of town too. Not saying that's what you happen to be advocating.

Knowing that Stefanski would be starting a career journeyman backup QB the first 11 games, some people were realistic with what that means. As for myself I predicted 7 wins this season. Many set crazy predictions and expectations like 10 or 11 games. For those people they are disappointed and they're looking for someone to blame for that. The only ones they should be blaming is themselves.

Stefanski is currently an average to below average head coach. The results are consistent with that. He gets the same benefit of the doubt Baker got by many because he just happens to be the best of a long line of schmucks.

Not much else to discuss. It is what it is. If they keep him around, you hope he gets it figured out. If they don't, you hope they get someone in here who prioritizes winning. Until Kevin or the next guy prioritize winning, not much will change.

This isn't rocket science.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...ific-terms-that-limit-his-authority/amp/

What does prioritize winning mean?

My question would be is: Name a coach who doesn't prioritize winning?

I want to understand his definition. To actually believe that any coach in the NFL does not prioritize winning is absurd.

You may as well say no coach wants to keep his job.

Yeah, I was agreeing w/you.

Stefanski has had ups & downs. My biggest complaint is him going for it on 4th down rather than taking points while in FG range. It seems that these early gaffs cost us significantly late in the game. as in we should be tied or we are down 4 instead of 1 in the final minutes. The losses from these situations have piled up and created a window for honest critique. 3 years in and he still does not act like he comprehends how important points are in the NFL.

KS has been the best HC since the return and the fact that he and Berry work well together is a plus. But more games are lost in the NFL than are won. No team exemplifies this more than the Cleveland Browns. And the fact that in his 3rd year his teams are still inventing ways to lose instead of finding ways to win is frustrating to say the least.

I do not want another coaching change but KS needs to start making adjustments to ensure this team is significantly better than a .500 team. The talent is there as is the parity of the league. The Browns should be 5-3 at this moment with JB. But they are 3-5 with significant 3 game stretch on the horizon. I would imagine if things go wrong tough decisions could be made before the season concludes.

IMO when you have parity wins and loses are mostly determined by player failures and great individual plays.

Turnovers can be a mistake or a great play. It depends on the play.

I don't know if you can quantify how games are mostly lost rather than won.

I would say there are maybe 5 good teams and 5 bad teams. The rest are damn near equal.

The separation even between good teams and bad are not even that great. That is why there are so many big upsets.

The Steelers are a bad team this year. That does not mean Mike Tomlin is a bad coach IMO.

The Browns made a giant investment in Deshaun Watson. They gave up big draft capital. Players in the first round that could help the team win games.

At the same time that huge investment has not played a down. I know everyone understands the importance of a franchise quarterback and the impact they have on wins and loses.

Jacoby has not been the reason the Browns have lost for the most part. However, insert DW from the start of the season. I do not believe it is disputable that the record is the same. Because offense also impacts defense. The defensive melt downs can not be look at under the same lens if DW was playing.

The conversation about Kevin Stefanski would also not be the same.

Browns remind me of the Vikings last year, look at them now.

12 wins to 3 wins they both should be fired.
The trade value for deshaun is so low we can not trade him
Even up for rodgers.

turnovers and penalties are how you lose games. On top of not taking points when the opportunity is there.

The Browns can make a case that they should be 5-3. They can also make the case that they could be 6-2 possibly 7-1.

I understand the DW argument, but JB has played pretty good, and better coaching should have the Browns with more wins than 3.

I think many are confused when posters say KS has to be better. This does not mean he should be fired, but it does bring some heat to his seat. you know the saying "tough and accountable."

This is by far the best talent the Browns have had since the return. The QB is a huge deal but the coach should not get a pass when he has been responsible with how a lot of this plays out. I hope DW brings a skill set and swag that gives us that boost. but if DW is that good a Super Bowl better be in the future. And our coach better not be the one in the way.

11-5. 8-9..... there is a trend here. hopefully the orange and brown can bounce back, but in order for that to happen, everybody including KS has to be better than the first 7 games. The Steelers are bad. we have played one complete game out of 8. That is not a good look for a coach many believe is doing a good job. in fact if you think KS is doing great at 3-5 your brown and orange glasses have you in a fantasy world.

Once again this does not mean I want him fired. I expect better. PERIOD. I believe he can be better, and I hope it started last Monday. But right now at 3-5 he has a bit to prove. Wins are what matter. And he is not getting enough of them.

I really disagree w/you about kicking FGs instead of going for TDs. Analytics support going for it in the situations where we are indeed going for it. We have a 62.5% success rate on 4th down. Addi in that not all kicks are made. If kicking FGs, people would complain that we are playing not to lose and that you need TDs to win in this league. Everyone makes the correct call AFTER the play.

I think early in the game you take the points, put's you on the board, give you a little positive momentum.

That's exceedingly misleading and incorrect.

I've talked and mentioned this every time - you try to manipulate the conversation on 4th downs to say Stefanski is making the right call every time.

1. It depends on the distance. 4th and 1 is vastly different than 4th and 3 .... and we have gone for it on 4th and 3 too many times.
2. You quoted THIS YEARS stats only. . . If we are judging Stefanski, we need ALL his stats. You only have to go back to 2021 and see that we went for it just as much but our success rate was only 41.3% and then in 2020 we were only successful 40.7% of the time. That's not good head coaching.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/fourth-down-conversion-pct?date=2022-02-14
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/fourth-down-conversion-pct?date=2021-02-08

I think the opposite. I think you should use analytics to help you w/those decisions. I many times have we heard the phrase "settling for three? FGs are good late in games to win the game. At the end of a half. And in situations where your odds of converting the 4th down are slim.

You can isolate stats to a given time period to support your argument if one is trying to manipulate the stats to skew them in favorable light to support their argument. That's precisely what you have pointed out here. Thanks for giving accuracy to the actual situation.

Not sure what you call a franchise qb lets quote a few of DeShaun stats
Against luck zero scores until the 4th quarter in the playoffs.
mayfield lost
Mahomes lost
lamar zero wins 2 losses against Baltimore that hardly sounds elite to me.

j/c

We get told on here all the time about 'grades'. Individual lineman grades, qb 'grades'............and we're doing great on 'grades'. We get told how great Stefanski is as a head coach.

Yet, we're 3-5. I "grade" a team by wins and losses, cause at the end of the season, you can stick "grades" where the sun doesn't shine.

It's nice to have players "grading" good. Wins matter.

I think that's pretty fair. I think looking a little deeper is worthwhile... And soon the excuses of how good the QB is or isn't will be removed. I'm actually feeling positive and expecting a play of run. JB is playing well... Watson is going to be much much better based on everything a certain poster has told us.

Well, you are not the only one a little concerned about this. I think he is elite, or at least has all the elite skills. But I worry about him being out of football for two years AND based on stats alone (for those of us who never paid attention to him in Texas) he looks like he's good, not elite. But hey, we aren't football gurus like some posters or the FO, so who the hell knows what we have? I'll trust Vers' word on it until he sucks, then all hell is breaking loose. I hope we never have to go there, but if we aren't contenders so much as a single year he is under center, I will bad mouth him, trash talk posters who wanted him, and generally be a miserable old grump until he's gone. I NEVER WANTED HIM, not even for a second.

That is not the measurement used to define a franchise quarterback.

Is every coach with a 3-5 record or less a bad coach?

j/c:

I knew this thread was going to turn into yet another agenda thread the minute I saw it w/the usual personality crap thrown in. I'm out.

Stats may say to go for it on 4th, but the HC should also look at the situation.
Stats only tell half the story.

Sometimes you have to see what is happening on the field, and include that into the statistical calculation. Against high scoring teams, sure you my need to go for it more, against low scoring teams with good defenses, maybe you take the 3.

I would say a 3-5 coach who had 4th qtr leads in most of the 5 losses deserves criticism.
I do not think I said he was a bad coach, but I did say he had to be better.

Ways that he could have improved but has not.
A)Not taking points early in the game when the opportunity is there. Analytics say one thing but results say another. Sometimes gut feelings and experience is better than statistics.
B) Not having #24 on the field at some of the most critical times in the game.

We all have seen these play out. It has been an issue. I do not accept everything is improved because of 1 complete game out of 8.
Lets put a couple games in a row like the last and I guarantee adjustments were made.

Look at Woods D last 2 games. Different formations, multiple fronts. If adjustments are made, I believe we have the staff and players too make noise. But, JB has played better than could have been imagined. The Browns should be better than 3-5. Some of these losses are due to our staff making the same mistakes. After 2.5 seasons these issues should have been addressed and improved upon.

I think everyone can see most are talking football. Most are focusing on KS and what he does well and doesn't. Only you came in here with a slightly false narrative trying to (again) make out like KS makes the right call on 4th downs all the time when anyone that watches the games over the last 3 years knows that's just 100% wrong.

Well they weren't blowing sunshine up his ass so naturally it's only about agendas. That's his go to when people question what's going wrong with a team who is currently 3-5. It couldn't possibly have anything to do with that losing record.

Sorry I called the draft one of the worst.
Owe well I called this season to the penny 12 wins to 3 wins.

Question who is vers?

Make a post about how crappy Stefanski's playcalling is and what a mistake it was to get rid of Baker. You'll find out in no time.

Maybe you should just get over yourself already, then the rest of us could enjoy the board again. And you taking shots at all these newer guys or guys that don't post much is pure BS and unacceptable. Do you see a low post count and just think you can bully them or what, Vers? I want to help you man, so, if you need to take a cheap shot or whine, just aim that crap at me. You can call me out by name, and point your ire here. This way you get it out of your system and since IDGAF what you think, we'll be good.

No worries

Who are you to determine what is “unacceptable”?

I’m not really sticking up for Vers here, I’m just saying what I said.

Who are you to question who determines what's unacceptable?

OCD! That's who. Smh, I will always take up for the oppressed, silenced, and bullied. So I guess common decency allows me to determine what is unacceptable. You should read up on it. Not defending what I said, Just saying what I did.

What should I read up on? I don’t need to read up on common decency, in my 55 years I’ve gotten most of it.

Not saying any of this is good or bad for the Browns, but as far as what's going to happen happen in the off season (imo):

The head coach and entire offensive coaching staff will remain intact - maybe a slightly altered role for AVP or Berry insisting on an "offensive" consultant " whatever that means. I'm just not sure how management will justify any major offensive shake-up without a full year of Watson.

Defensive coaching staff will be all new, led by a young up and comer (names will be discussed back and forth on the board very soon). ST coach gone.

New defensive scheme in which to acclimate for half a season (but that doesn't really matter, because how much worse could it be?). Probably a new S and C coach.

Who knows.

At a minimum you cannot continue with Woods. I'm not sure any coach in the history of the NFL has as many lives as him, including Hue.

But it should be someone experienced.

I agree, but until the season ends there isn't much you can do about it. Firing Woods and appointing a interim from the current staff isn't going to do anything. At this point I doubt it would rally the troops. The reality is some of the troops need to be replaced.

IDK, how people can still be praising Stefanski when it's his team and his defense that sucks and that's being nice. He's supposed to have the best o-line in the NFL with the best RB in Chubb and he calls his number only 11 freaking times in the game. This isn't something that started just today, he's been doing this crap for 3-years now. You take away Chubbs 30-yard run, and the guy averaged only 3.0 YPC the other 10 attempts. Meanwhile, his defense is allowing almost 200 yards rushing against them again. When is someone going to hold the HC responsible for his teams continued poor showing?

I really feel Chubb is the kind of back that needs carries. Certainly more than 11. He gets going, he gets hungry and angry.............and better and better.

But, I'm not a football coach. Maybe Stefanski is 'resting' Chubb for some time later, like when we're behind by 20?

Maybe the 3 ypc is the reason we didn't call his number more. It's pretty obvious that teams are keyed on stopping the run and are willing to allow it to fall in to Brissett's hands.

Dadgum....if you were coaching againt the Browns, what the hell would you do?

Our greatest problem is in the owners box.

Expect to win!!!!!

The Browns don't. And their coach is a dud who doesn't instill that belief in the team.

I answered Balls hypothetical question. If you were coaching against the Browns what would you do? My answer: expect to win. I think KS should get another season with a top end QB which DW was and hopefully still is. Firing KS now, I believe, would be unfair. However, I would strongly consider making changes with the D coaches. We need a different direction with our D.

We need to make the DL interior a top priority.

Stefanski has to catch heat because he's the HC. the fact that our defense was this terrible after a bye is just as much on him as it is woods.

but the O is fine. we ALL knew teams were gonna sell out to stop the run and make JB throw it for the 11 games he's starting. JB isn't good enough to compete in a potential shootout. this is the same thing with JB in the colts, he's a great backup who can hold down the fort in a pinch, but not the entire season. so until Watson returns, teams are gonna do everything possible to force JB to throw the ball.

anybody who thinks our run game is gonna carry us every week should know better. the only way our run game stays effective is if they respect our QB's ability to pass and create. and our defense is trash. Stefanski needs to show growth, and part of that is admitting when you hired the wrong guy and letting him go. Woods just isn't it. whatever scheme he created, or whatever the message he thinks he's sending just isn't being received by the players. these are the kind of decisions that separate OC/DCs and HCs.

Agree with this. And many saw flaws in Woods defense the last two years - despite statistics that wanted to tell some posters he was a good D coordinator.

Berry is also HUGELY at fault. Put aside Watson who has yet to prove one way or another whether that was a good move for the team. What, where and how did Berry make this team better this offseason with free agency and a draft ? Emmerson might be a player, we might have solved our kicking issues (but let's wait a season or two before we anoint). I think Brissett has played better than we all anticipated. He's played well enough to win. These sudden holes in the roster ... what was Berry's plan? How's he going to fix it next year with only a similar draft haul? With Hunt gone, with Clowney gone. Other cap casualties?

IF Watson doesn't return to his peak - and two years away from the game has to carry risk no matter who you are and how good you were - IF he isn't that Watson... the franchise will be set back a minimum of 5 years.

I have lost all faith that this team will be successful with Stefanski at the helm. He can't make the hard decisions. I'm not talking about going for it on 4th and four. I'm talking about not pulling a crippled Baker or not firing an incompetent DC. He clearly can't get this team motivated to perform to anywhere near their potential. To play like they did today after a bye is a coaching failure. There's an obvious lack of leadership.

This so obvious to anyone paying attention.

I'm trying to understand this line of thought. A franchise that has a history of making terrible hires and underperforming in the draft took a gamble on a franchise QB. Had they not taken that gamble you would have to assume, based on track record, that the incompetent hires and poor draft selections would continue. How is the franchise being set back? Makes no sense.

READ. He said if Watson isn't who he was before his self-imposed two year hiatus, the franchise is set back five years.

No, I got that. Again, how does that change anything? If you take the gamble on Watson and he's bad you've lost the draft picks. If you didn't take the gamble on Watson and retain your draft picks, you have Berry making the picks and Stefanski coaching the picks. How is that better?

If Watson doesn't pan out it's a wash. It's a risk you take every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

The "set back for five years" argument was first introduced to support Baker and bash the Watson move. I'm surprised it's still being used in light of Baker's play.

I'm close, but there is still hope. As I said in a previous thread, Stefanski is "good cop", and definitely needs "bad cop" as a DC. Woods is toast after this season anyway. Going to have to hire someone with more than a weak pulse.

We can't have two coaches that put their tales between their legs when "smart, tough, accountable" has to be enforced. Offense will click with Watson. We'll need a DC that will bust balls when we get half-hearted effort and/or crappy results. Two coaches that both pat players on the heads, make excuses, and tell the media "we battled"? Not gonna fly much longer.

That could also be a bad outcome. Can't have the head coach acting like a coordinator and the coordinator acting like the head coach. Team won't respect the head coach.

How in the world is it "a wash" if you have no QB or draft picks??

Do you understand that if you draft a bad QB it's not as bad as trading 5 picks, waiting a year and paying 250M for a bad QB?? One of these things would "set you back" further than the other. This isn't real hard.

Sometimes I think you would argue the color of grass.

If we gambled on Watson and he's bad (which I don't think he will be) then everyone needs to be fired... we gave up the farm for Watson... our offense will be fine, but we could have used some of those picks on defense...

I'm hoping Watson comes in and lights a fire to the team... but if he comes in and sucks... and we gave up that much draft capital to get him...everyone is getting fired...

...and we're set back five years.

yep... we need to be very good/lucky with the picks we have... need to be able to develop talent, which I worry about doing... and Watson needs to be good

nonsense.. we are already set back 3 year by hiring this staff. Its been proven the right staff turns it around immediately. See NYJ, NYG, Miami. Also shows that you can ruin something that was working with the wrong staff..see Las Vegas, Tampa

You're arguing with him now because you have a different opinion.

You do know grass is green right?

You're right. When Watson sucks (this scenario), I'm sure the next thing this franchise will do is hire a front office that will immediately turn things around.

And you're right too.

If Watson sucks it won't be a setback.

I agree.

Yessir. All those things need to happen and we need to hope there is no damage to our wavering mission to be a "destination" organization. We've already jeopardized next year's free agency haul because the more we say we're not, the more "the Browns is the Browns is the Browns".

Not sure I'm following, I wasn't arguing with Fate, just stating that if we cleaned house it doesn't necessarily mean we are set back 5 years if we make the right choices.. I know theres alot of ifs in there and to his point it doesn't mean we will all of a sudden start hiring the right people after 20 years of this garbage, but we did have a good GM and scouts with Dorsey, FK was the mistake, but it should not have cost Dorsey his job.

And no love for this? WTH??

15 minutes in Photoshop I'll never get back.

More.common ground. I agree with this 100%.

It was based on some previous posts before yours. I was trying to be funny.

Exactly, the Browns have a HC acting like a coordinator and nobody acting like a HC. Hell, even the people in this forum comment week after week about how well they think Stefanski has the offense working with his play calling. Those same posters say nothing about Stefanski when talking about the defense. I've asked it before, and I'll ask it again: "Who the hell is the HC of the Cleveland Browns?"

For all those Stefanski supporters that said the Browns would have better QB play this year even with Brissett being the starter for 11 games, the stats and record through 9-weeks makes that statement totally false.


____QB______Comp_Att_Comp %__ yards_____TD_INT__ Rate____Sacks__Fumbles_W___L____T___PCT
Brissett_______185__290__63.8%___2074_____8___5___ 93.95___19_______ 5___ 3___ 6___ 0___ 0.333
Mayfield 2021__150__225__66.7%___1917_____8___3___104.76___24_______ 4___5____4___0___ 0.556 (injured in week 2)
Mayfield 2020__149__243__61.3%___1646____15___7___101.50___12_______ 1___ 6___3____0___0.667

Who cares. Watson is the Browns starting QB. The Browns got rid of Baker for Watson. Brisket is only a placeholder. Baker is not even starting.

Here’s my dream scenario: we keep KS, fire Woods, and hire Mike Zimmer as DC

Sorry, I don't see that at all. At least any more than any other owner. Sure, he is the owner so he hires the help, but pointing to him for the problems is a pretty narrow view .

I never felt that and never entertained that because Baker wasn't replaced by Brissett. He was replaced by Watson.

I mentioned that a week or two ago.

I think it would be a good move. Much depends on if Zimmer wants to do that. The recent death of his son may hurt that possibility, or may help as a way for Mike Zimmer to "escape" so to speak.

Some people tend to drop out a bit, others jump head long in to work or some other activity.

To that point, which does have some merit, I might like to see Van Pelt call the plays the rest of the season.

I don't mind the head coach calling plays, but not doing so can give the head coach more ability to interact with the defense and D coordinator.

I just don't know how much of that is or isn't already happening. Headsets allow you to be in anyone's ear at any given time.

The self-appointed guru of all of football and his hate club cares because they have flooded this forum with posts about how well off the Browns would be this season with Brissett rather than Mayfield with Watson the Predator suspended. If you're going to insist on spewing the hatred day after day, you can expect to be called out when you are wrong. What's happening to Mayfield outside of the Browns has no bearing on whether the Browns are better right now or not. There's been countless posts by that group praising Brissett's performance and Stefanski's OC work on the 3-6 team. Too bad the injured Baker didn't receive the same kind of support when he was here playing injured and has consequentially out played his immediate replacement. The boat has sailed as you said and it's true the Browns got rid of Baker for Watson, but the team is not better off at this point though some will continue to spew their hate like the Browns really are - NOT!

Yeah good point peen

So your argument is that the Browns are so bad as an organization they can't be set back any further? Essentially if every 3 years we traded away 3 first round picks for a player who was not as good as he was supposed to be (and therefore not elite) and locked up 1/4 $billiion on one player, we wouldn't be any worse off. Yeah - I disagree.

Some have been expressing this perspective for a long time. And it's not because the offense is in disarray - it's because as a HC you are responsible for the entire product on the field. Defense and Special Teams need the HC's attention. But to suggest that was to get ridiculed by some because the offense was working.

Like a few others have said - I have lost faith in Stefanski for a number of reasons.

I doubt he gets fired in the offseason and the pit in my stomach that thinks he is flawed as a HC and has reached his ceiling and we are seeing what we will continue to get what we see now moving on. If Watson comes back and is elite - I worry that will only paper over the flaws. If Watson comes back and is 'only' a top 12-15 QB in the NFL then we are screwed.

I addressed this in the Bengals Game forum but it will be gone in a few days so I'll address it here as well. Whether Stefanski is back or not next year will hinge on one thing...... watson.

This team married watson with that guaranteed contract. Almost a quarter of a billion dollars. They are not however married to Stefanski. watson will get six games playing for Stefanski. You can bet your ass that the owner who is writing the checks will listen to watson because he is the golden calf. He is what Haslam believes the future of this team depends on to succeed. Follow the money. So Stefanski's future beyond this season will rest on whether watson believes in Stefanski's system and whether he likes working with Stefanski.

I mean let's look at what happened in Houston. Only a little over two months after signing an extended contract watson decided he would hold out and demand a trade because he didn't like the decision the owner made in his new hirings. Do you really think Haslam doesn't know that? Do you really think Haslam would risk taking a chance of having a disgruntled watson? Do you really think he would try to force watson to play in a system or with a HC he doesn't believe in or doesn't like? No, he's invested far too much to take such a risk.

Make no mistake, what watson thinks of Stefanski after those last six games will determine Stefanski's future in Cleveland.

I saw your reply and I agree with your sentiments. Stefanski's fate is tied to how well Watson likes his scheme and how well Watson likes him as a head coach. I'm not saying one way or the other weather Watson will like or hate stiffensky, but I agree that Watson is king in the relationship.

Same here. I have no idea what watson will think about working with and playing for Stefnaski

Watson is the key but I do not see Stefanski as a leader of men which is his primary responsibility (even though he thinks calling plays is). This is the main disconnect I think this team is facing. Lack of leadership and I sense a lack of belief in the defensive coaching staff (mainly Woods). I think if Watson, Chubb, Cooper, Njoku, etc. don't feel like KS is the guy they will speak up (mainly Watson) and change will occur. If Woods is retained I think big trouble lies ahead in 2023. This team is so poorly run that I'm not sure what needs to happen at this point. It's just sad to watch week in and week out. SMH

I really think we're talking apples and oranges here Pit; or at least, apples and sour apples.

We're talking about Watson, who had already played four seasons with a dysfunctional organization, and was all but promised he would "have a say"... and then ghosted. And then trying to forecast that "attitude problem", or whatever you want to call it, into a brand-new situation.

Thinking that Watson will be pounding his fists on the table for a new coach, after six games, after not playing for two years, is a huge stretch imo.

I'm not saying the past is not reason for concern; but if the above scenario came to pass, we have much bigger problems than a coaching change.


Now, put yourself in our FO's shoes and situation:

~ We already have a scapegoat, it's our terrible defensive performance and the coach in question on that side of the ball. That, and not having Watson available are the two biggest (glaring) reasons why were not talking about playoffs and an immediate chance for a championship. One of those things may point to Stefanski and his responsibility as a leader. The other is clearly the fault of Deshaun Watson.

~ If we're concerned with the above scenario (actually, even if we're not), we will have a strongly-aligned narrative going forward. It would be something along these lines... Get comfortable in the offense with your eyes towards next season. Shake off the rust. Keep your mind open to what you think works and doesn't work and ideas for improvement in yourself and our scheme. Look forward to the off-season and working with Kevin and the players towards creating an offensive scheme that matches your skillset.

If you think that the QB who this ownership is married to for quite some won't have a huge influence whether Stefanski stays or goes so be it. Even with everything you said they aren't going to want their golden calf being forced to play and work with a HC he doesn't want to work with or play for. watson holds all the cards. And who is it exactly that claims watson was supposed to actually have that say in Houston? I've seen that said and repeated many times. Telling watson what to do hasn't worked out well so far. Or as you word it " a strongly-aligned narrative ".

I can't speak for Pit -- but I don't think it's likely that Watson will turn on KS. Just that if the locker room feels dysfunctional, if KS has lost the players, if the offense isn't Watson friendly ... it is possible that Watson could sour on KS and I think if that did happen, Watson's voice would carry a lot of weight. It's much more likely that - no matter how bad things play out, Stefanski will be here next year. But, you know, Browns is the Browns.

Didn't say that at all. Endorsed your post in the first thread with this same simple disclaimor: That won't be happening after six freaking games. Especially since it's the QB's fault he missed the first eleven.

Everybody in the sports world including Adam Schefter, Ian Rapoport, Aaron Wilson of the Houston Chronicle and the horse himself -- Cal McNair, the team's chairman and chief operating officer. Sorry you missed all of that; if you want a baker's dozen links, let me know.

Hi there Pit !

Reading your sig

Hopefully he can pick a better HC then what's been on the previous list

LOL ya never know right ?


The QB and HC thing in Browns town has been very disappointing for sure.


Somehow if they can figure out how adding gelatin powder to water makes for a good jell o


use that to put together a good team that Jells well !!!


stupid I know LOL

100% support this!

don't know if he wants to coach, but think he could be a great hire

I see a lot of micro analyses of players and coaches about who’s to blame. Especially DC Joe Woods and half of the D get the lion share of all criticism and as many point out we play with a back up QB. Most of it is probably correct and I think with these changes our results will improve dramatically but the important and difficult question is will it be enough to elevate the Browns to be a SB contender?

From a macro perspective I have following questions.

Who has the final say in this organization regarding personnel changes? Is it the owners, our GM or our HC? Honest question. Who’s is in charge?

Who’s in charge of our players? According YouTube Quincy most of Kevin Stefanski’s critics are wrong. He’s only in charge of the O, not the rest of the team and he has no accountability if the D or the ST don’t perform to expectations. So then my question is who’s our HC? Who’s is in charge of the whole team?

What is Andrew Berry’s responsibilities? Draft picks? Free agency? New contracts? Coaches? Is he in charge of our DC or only in our so called HC? Another honest question. What’s his main responsibilities?

Who’s in charge of DePodesta and the analytics? What’s their role and their involvement regarding the HC and how he operate? Do they report to the GM? The HC? The owners?



From what I can see as a new supporter who has followed the Browns since 2017 the answers to these questions aren’t crystal clear. I don’t see a unquestionable leader in this organization.

And that lead me to my main criticism. Cleveland Browns don’t have a healthy leadership. Who’s in charge of who?

There are huge question marks about the working environment. From my perspective it isn’t player friendly. Too many controversies. Too much noise. Too many leaks.

I don’t see a clear frame work. I don’t see any accountability. I don’t see any toughness from a standpoint of leadership. Where’s the togetherness between the FO, the coaches and the players? Where’s the camaraderie? In bad times they all seems to be on their own.

Have our GM disappeared from the earth? Where’s is owners. I see a lonely HC. I see some players just shaking their heads. I see clueless local reporters.


It’s off course I not all black and white.

There’re probably many good people inside this organization but as a whole it lack leadership. From my perspective that’s the real problem and why this organization has problem to move forward and to be successful.

Well, he must have read this post.....the way he asserted his leadership and put the hammer down with that 1 snap suspension of Delpit. The team now knows who's boss.

Seriously, why would you even say that to the press?

I hope we put in some emotional support for Delphit ... I mean, punish him certainly, but when the hammer comes down so hard make sure he bounces back eh?

Great post and I agree with nearly all of it ... the only one I disagree with is the complaint that the Haslam's are missing from the picture. That's how i should be. We don't need them meddling or making comments in the media. They hired people to run the team - let them run it.

Berry is never a high profile figure - he disappears for long stretches which is probably true of most GMs. But his draft picks are in the spot light and many or most are found to be wanting.

j/c:

It's pretty much that way with all teams with a QB who is considered top shelf. Coaches don't usually get to where they have that sway until they are more or less legacy in nature, and even then, they don't usually get there until they have had good relationships with their QB's.

A guy like Belicheck might be able to say "my way or the highway" to Watson, maybe a few others, but it isn't many, and even then they find a way. Belicheck and Brady didn't always see eye to eye, but they found a way.

Just a general comment.

I see comments about Stefanski being the head coach. He should be over all.

In theory that is correct, but in reality is it that way?

All coaches come from one side of the ball or the other. When was the time we had a coach who was both a D coordinator and a offensive coordinator? We are probably going back to Paul Brown or George Halas to did something like that. Maybe Landry.

Stefanski isn't over the D. He is here to make the changes if the D isn't performing. We'll find out at seasons end if Stefanski is a head coach when he fires Woods. Stefanski isn't going to go in and start setting defensive gameplans or anything like that.

Maybe, to some extent. But by that rationale no president or CEO is ever responsible for their companies sales, marketing, engineering, or any other department... They're just there to employ other people to do those jobs?. That isn't how it works. Top guy is always responsible. That's how accountability works.

The Jason Lloyd clip was interesting, 2 years of Barry and stefansky and the haslams are saying they still haven't found a solution for certain. And very telling that he agreed 100% that the guaranteed money was the single biggest reason Watson signed for the Browns. So the hour of watching tape with stefansky really means diddly squat

Right. However this is a bit different in that it is harder to make a in season change v the CEO who can make the move much easier.

If the CEO doesn't have the right talent in house, they can start to recruit from anywhere at any time. The NFL football coach can't just start calling around and talking to other coaches around the league without violating all sorts of league rules.

Even if the coach is outside the league it is hard to make any real change mid eason.

Maybe Stefanski already has a guy he wants who is outside the league and is having that guy evaluate current players on the roster so by the time he is on board they will already know who we can keep and who we need to dump.

We don't know that steps aren't already being taken. Firings aren't usually the 1st step in the process. It is the last step.

Again - partially agree but we've changed tack from it's not his responsibility to we can't change mid season. And while I sort of agree - I'd actually like a few games under a different DC to determine if any of the players 'on the bubble' are trash or whether they have potential under a coach who can ... coach.

I don't think we have anybody. I think our LB coach was a DC at one point....is Tarver his name?

I am fine if we do that. It just doesn't happen very often.

I am not going to argue about Stefanski. People can say whatever they feel.

Haslam has proven that hiring a new head coach does not always equal success.

Organizations that back their head coaches look to fix problems rather than recycle head coaches.

The Ravens and Steelers have stayed the course with their head coach. They have fired coordinators both on offense and defense.

You don't throw out the baby with the bath water.

Fixing the problems instead of total replacement can be a better solution. Think about Haslam hiring a new head coach. Please just the thought is repulsive. "Let's look at former head coaches that were fired. No, no let's go look at the hot coordinators with no head coach experience."

Sometimes the green grass on the other side of the fence is an illusion.

In the end, KS is not going to survive Watson...he's just not. KS doesn't have "it" and Watson isn't going to tolerate that. Watson will demand/require a leader and KS is NOT that guy.

Rip off the Woods bandaid and get on with it. Teams do make coaching moves during the season...especially when a coach has repeatedly demonstrated an ability to continue being the same ineffective guy he's been for years.

Berry should be on watch as well...his drafts have been questionable and his claim-to-fame is re-signing other guys' guys.

It's funny how people rant against Haslam for making changes, yet here they are wanting to blow things up.

Bone,

I enjoy your takes and admire your optimism...so please don't take offense to my response.

I don't think KS is a real head coach...at least from his presence on gameday. His face is stuck in the waffle house menu on offense and he's just another sideline body the rest of the time. No leadership...no fire...no control...no real presence. The comparison to Tomlin and Harbaugh are perfect examples...those two jerks have a sideline presence we've not had (possibly) in my lifetime...and we sure don't have that now. They've been that way long enough for me to conclude that they are those type guys every day of the week all year long...unfortunately....I believe that about KS as well.

The Jets and Giants each found a guy after years of changes and ineptitude. Those guys are winning with trash at QB and rosters that have been pathetic for awhile now. Washington has the most dysfunctional owner in history and are playing with a backup over an injured...well...backup caliber QB...and they just beat the almighty Eagles on Monday night...on the road...and are back to .500 ball and in the wildcard race.

Coaching matters...especially in the NFL...and we don't have a head guy there.

I feel it is important for the franchise that KS is back next year. but......

I asked this question in another thread.

Will it take DW to prove that KS is a good coach?

Has KS proved to be a good coach thus far in his tenure?

I understand the dynamics of the question as we can turn the question to-is Belichek as successful a coach w/out TB.

IMHO it should not take DW to prove KS a good coach. KS has had almost 3 seasons to show it. What if DW looks bad 5/7 games? Maybe not bad, but not 250mil great.
Does the argument now become DW will do better in a system that lets him dominate the game. Or do we blame rust? That does not bode well for keeping KS.

KS had a great first year. This year he has his team at 3-6 with many more questions than answers.
If KS were a great coach we would be looking to DW to elevate us to championship levels. At 3-6 we are many levels away from a championship. we need DW to lead us to competitiveness before we can think about championships.


I do not agree that the issues on D or ST are not the fault of KS. KS is in charge. KS is responsible especially after watching what happened in Miami. Heads should roll.

Sorry Willie, you don't understand how it works.

For the record, that is FALSE. Nothing in that video indicates anything of the sort. I think you "misheard" that.

I find it interesting when you look around the NFL at head coaches.

How quickly head coaches fall out of favor. Then when the new guy is hired what happens?

Good head coaches are not always going to have good seasons. Most head coaches do not make up rosters.

Most head coaches work one side of the ball. All head coaches have to delegate. Head coaches often can not hire the coordinators or position coaches they would like to because they are often unavailable. Injuries can take a brutal toll on teams.

With all of the things that head coaches have little control of; they are held as the sole reason for failure.

So and so does not have the "it." Please. Define "it." Then jar it so everyone knows it. You could then sell it to NFL owners.

I am sorry but I am not buying that Watson is the man in charge of who is the head coach.

Haslam signs the checks.

[quoteWill it take DW to prove that KS is a good coach?[/quote]

No, he has already proven that in so far as QB can help. He helped Baker and he has made Jacoby look like a fair starter.

I don't ever want to hear people complaining about Haslam blowing things up after reading the fans in here talking about blowing things up.

Man, we're going off the rails in here with the Stefanski stuff. I've said myself he has some weaknesses in what I perceive as strong leadership, but c'mon.

Food for thought:

As many have said, your coach doesn't need to be rah-rah, he doesn't need to be 'in your face'. Tom Landry went to 10 NFC Championship Games and 5 Super Bowls; he looked like he was beamed down to the sideline from a bad episode of Twilight Zone.

Stefanski is still learning to lead. He's experiencing his first real stretch of adversity. Do you hire leaders to fire them before you see how they respond to that? Wouldn't make sense, would it?

Stefanski is gifted when it comes to offensive scheme, game management and play-calling.

Stefanski brought out the best in Baker Mayfield who looks sorely incompetent now that he's gone. He's brought out the best in Brissett and has him competing as well as the best in the game. He definitely played a big role in getting Cousins to fire on all cylinders. I'd go ahead and pull out the tacky, cliché, "quarterback whisperer". How in the world would he be not good enough to work with the talent of Deshaun Watson?? You guys have me scratching holes in my head there.

We, as fans, somehow think we know what goes on behind closed doors -- we don't.

We, as fans, somehow think the answer is to fire everyone when things get rough.

We, as fans, better thank our lucky stars that Jimmy Haslam has turned the corner and has quit acting like us!


We knew, from the beginning of this season, there was a good chance the season was lost. Ownership and FO took that gamble to land a fQB. It is what it is. It would be the most foolish thing the Browns have ever done to blow anything up before 2024. Woods is the sacrificial lamb because he has earned it. There will be some personnel changes, but mark my words... we'll have a DC that busts balls and makes players accountable next year. That will be the yin to Stefanski's yang.

Everybody take a deep breath lol.

I think that's very reasonable and very fair. Most especially about his offense and getting BM and JB playing above themselves.

With that said - we have seen the same issues with KS over 3 years without any signs of improvement. In game tendency to get away from the run. Check. In game - starts off hot with scripted plays, stalls and lacks adjustments after that initial success. Check. A tendancy to always want to outsmart the other team instead of make them stop what we do best. Check. Team coming our flat and unmotivated in key games and after byes. Check.

I think most are saying they have lost some or most of their faith in KS - not that he needs to be fired. There are certainly some who would fire him today if they could - that's a small few. . . . I feel kind of like I did when Derek Anderson was playing well for the Browns, it was fun to watch and sometimes he looked good, but in the pit of my stomach it didn't feel like he was the answer.

He proved he could coach a team to the playoffs.

You pick Tomlin & McShay who are having similar seasons.
One major difference is that both those coaches have a ring.

KS has one winning season and one playoff win.

Huge difference.

And thus far there's nothing on Stefanski's Browns resume to give him that power either.

You never know. It could be just the opposite. watson may prefer a HC he can influence and manipulate into doing what he wants. He may prefer that to butting heads with a strong leader.

I don't think I said he did?

I didn't mean to insinuate that you did say that. I was simply attempting to say that Stefanski had not reached the status you described. Actually I was agreeing with you. When you have an elite QB and a HC without a very successful history and resume the QB holds the cards. Sorry for the miscommunication.

You are welcome to your opinion.

But, I don't believe in presence. Coaches looking at plays when calling plays is what coaches do.

I don't believe throwing stuff and yelling equals results. You have to be yourself. Be that Tony Dungy, Bill Belichick, Tom Landry, Paul Brown, or Vince Lombardi.

What you have to prove over the long haul is that you get the most from your players. Position coaches coach technique.

Coordinators develop schemes and game plans. Head coaches typically coach one side of the ball. They do bear responsibility as the head coach. They have to oversee the entire team.

However, when you are a first time head coach and typically you are hired because someone else failed. Then you are going to a losing team.

You have to assemble a staff. Not all people you may want to hire are available.

Sometimes coordinators are fired by head coaches because the head coach determines a change is necessary.

Stefanski has done more than enough to keep his job. He inherited Baker. Baker had success under him. He got hurt and it was decided he was not the guy to win a championship with. Watson has not played a down under Stefanski.

Joe Woods has been inconsistent just like Baker was inconsistent. IMO you fix the problem.

I will say in support of your post that if some of the best coaches in the NFL had been judged on their first three seasons they never would have been great HC's.

Precisely Pit.

Or even their first five seasons...

Yes...but compare that to the number of head coaches fired within their first three seasons who never went on to have success anywhere in the NFL as a HC. We alone could fill up the back of a T-shirt with those guys.

BB was fired as a HC one time in his career...by the Baltimore Ravens...having never coached a game for them.

In all fairness it is a balancing act. Kind of know when to hold them and know when to fold them.

Freddie was pushed into the head coach role because he had success with Baker. He was not a real candidate and he proved that in one year.

In a way we are at the mercy of Haslam. Haslam brought in Depo because he was a smart guy and was highly qualified as a person who understood process. In addition they wanted his expertise in analytics. Haslam was convinced that what happen in baseball could be applied to football. Haslam had experience with Berry. They wanted a guy who could work with Berry. Depo was impressed with Stefanski the first time they looked at him. Berry liked Stefanski.

IMO you can not expect perfection out of the gait. You have to look at all factors and be realistic about facing ups and downs.

I am far away from Berea. Haslam, Depo and Berry are not. They are close to everything that is going on. They interact with KS daily. They work with him both on and off the field. They know the locker room as well.

I could be wrong but my take is they believe in KS. Not just as a guy who can run the offense and call plays but as the head coach.

Obviously this year is not what anyone expected especially on defense. They signed free agents and drafted players for this defense. The scheme and the players including draft picks are not cutting it. Clearly, from blown assignments to not being able to stop the run; the defense has failed.

So, IMO after all you went through to hire KS and seeing first hand the person, the guy who runs the offense and calls plays, and KS as the head coach.

Unless you are aware of all kinds of issues behind the scenes. Why fire him? When you add Haslam as the guy to make the hire. I will take KS over the unknown.

The 1990 Browns won 3 games.

Belichick took over in 1991 in the ensuing seasons the browns won
6, 7, 7, 11 games so steady improvement

In 1995, the last season before the move the browns won 5 games.
They were 4-4 or 4-5 when Modell announced the move mid-season and the team pretty much quit at that point

Stefanski took over a 6 win team.

He won 11 - which I think was contributed to by the covid lockdown. He was able to take advantage of the online stuff much better than the other coaches. Then once the NFL went back to a more traditional training camp...The browns won 8 games last year and are 3-6 so far this season. Looking like a downward trend.

Does anyone think Sean Payton would be interested if a change is made? Just for the record, I think KS should get a shot with DW. JMO

Exactly!

Another good indicator is to look at how many Browns players that have improved or regressed performance wise since 2020. If the answer is that more players have regressed instead of having a improving trend then that’s another worrying sign.

How many players do we talk about that have made significant improvements since Stefanski’s first season?

There is no way on this earth that covid had anything to do with teams records.

I remember reading where he said he might return but only to a team with a sound front office. I'll leave it at that for now.

Good post.

After each week the fans, radio call ins, podcasts, etc. all respond like windshield wipers on high speed.

I agree that Haslam thankfully has grown past that. There is no quick fix, or magic wand to save this season.

Woods has earned the flack. But, him leaving today will accomplish nothing for this season.

"Stefanski is still learning to lead. He's experiencing his first real stretch of adversity. Do you hire leaders to fire them before you see how they respond to that? Wouldn't make sense, would it?"

That has been my contention as well.

The hiring a head coach process is about as risky as draft picks. Hardly a science.

Changes will be made but I highly doubt it will be the head coach.

I think the Haslams and especially Depo put the Browns squarely on his do not touch list.

If there is even a hint of dysfunction Payton ain't touching it, and let's face it, the Browns are about as dysfunctional as it gets.

You are correct. All 32 teams played under the same guidelines. No team was given an advantage in that situation.

The Saints own Payton's contract rights. A team wanting Payton will have trade 1st round picks to the Saints to get him. We do not have any picks to trade. No chance to land Payton if Haslam wanted to go in that direction.

Does this mean that Sean Peyton's not up to speed on his "guardrails"...

Pit, you are correct that all teams had the same guidelines and limitations. But I disagree that it didn't give an advantage to the teams with the more tech savvy coaching staffs. I think guys like stefanski were able to take advantage of this while teams with old school coaches couldn't do what they wanted to do in training camp and weren't able to adjust. Once the training camps returned to normal, the old school guys were able to rev back up and surpass the browns coaching staff.

No way to prove who is right or wrong, this is all completely opinion and speculation. This is my opinion. I recognize that you and Bone disagree and respect your opinions.

It maybe true that Stefanski handled it well.

But every team has tech guys in support to develop plans.

I am sure that in the end it had no bearing on records.

You might be right. I just think stefanski and our staff were much more comfortable with the technology than many other guys and able to take advantage of that. This is both a compliment in that he could do that, and a diss that now he cannot keep up. JMO

JC...

Football is not baseball..!

Turning your NFL franchise's ' football strategy ' over to a baseball strategist is a losing formula.

Depodesta has benefited greatly from his 'moneyball' experiment but after 6 years of moneyball, Depodesta's record is what it says he is...!

Moneyball is a plan best suited for TANKING...but not for building a franchise into a consistent WINNER..!

IMO you are reading more into analytics than there really is.

The fact is every NFL team employs analytics.

I've seen it all. Our team benefited from Covid while having a completely new coaching staff, multiple roster moves, and having to implement new schemes on both offense and defense.

The Alternative Universe is a real place.

I went through the standings today to see how many head coaches I would take Stefanski over. I was only able to get to six names.

Covid, no covid, it don't matter, he is simply one of the worst. He's just plain bad.

I'm not sure if this should make you or I happy though...there was an insider post on the OBR today that said unless the wheels come off Stefanski is safe. So that should make you happy. However, i feel confident the Browns will finish 3-14 so there maybe hope for me yet.

I'm not so sure he's safe though. Sitting at 3-6 with the hopeful upside that a QB that hasn't played a live game in 2-years the final six games - I see the Browns finishing up at 5-12 for the season with Watson only winning 2 of the final 6 games. If that happens, I believe Stefanski immediately goes on the hot seat. One, he will be sporting a 3-year record with the Browns of 25-27 including the playoff games. Not only will he have a losing record, but the team will have regressed each year. Two, Watson's first game against his old team will be of significant value to the Texans. If the Texans beat the Browns, there is a good chance as things stand that the Texans could be looking at not only the top pick in the draft but the 2nd pick too. Beating the Browns will only enhance the value of that 1st round pick, so I expect them to be highly motivated. Three, Haslam - how comfortable will he be turning over his 230M QB to a HC with a losing record, a team that has steadily regressed each year, and the loss of a top 3 pick in a draft loaded with QB's. I think "pissed" would be an understatement.

Obviously, I'm not the only one who sees issues with Stefanski. Eight coaches who could be in jeopardy over the next two months article spells it out.


https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nf...mp;cvid=bab6179027a444be8e0d9487a94871b8

What a distinction right? The only head coach under Haslam to survive four years.

That has worked out really well.

With that type of philosophy if we follow you maybe we will set the record for the number of head coaches a team has ever had.

Let's hire another and make sure we fire him after three years.

Let's see 32 teams. First year Coach of the Year. Best season your quarterback has had. Record 11-6 with a playoff win on the road. Something the Browns are really used to doing.

Second year a damaged bad quarterback and career back-up. Two of your highest paid players your "top receivers" don't play.
You go 7-9.

Third year you give up high draft picks for a franchise quarterback who is suspended for 11 games. Career back-up starts and your record is 3-6.

Oh yes makes perfect sense let's fire him. I am sure we will find the right guy for another three years. Every great candidate will want a shot for a three year job. I can see all the best guys available waiting in line now.

Seems like a great plan. Continuity a-go-go has sure paid off the Browns. Can't wait for the new guy and team rebuild.

Ah! the yellowbrick road to success. Super Bowl her we come.

USA opinion piece guy what great credentials. Maybe Stefanski he "deserves a chance with Watson."

GMAFB.

Here's some fun facts for you:

In the last two seasons (2020, 2021), only 12 NFL teams have failed to make the playoffs either year. Of those 12 teams, every one of those teams have replaced their HC since 2020.

Since 2020 and including this year's record to date, the Miami Dolphins have the 6th best record in the entire NFL yet has not made the playoffs. They replaced their coach for 2022.

Of the 20 teams that have made playoff appearances since 2020, 5 of those teams or 25% have changed HC's since 2020.

Of all the 20 teams that made the playoffs in the last 2 years, only 2 are on pace for posting consecutive losing seasons without changing the HC - Washington currently 5-5 (2020 & 2021) and Cleveland currently 3-6 (2021 & 2022)

Swell.

How's things going in Denver and Las Vegas with their new head coaches.

Didn't the Lions just hire their guy.

The green grass on the other side of the fence is often an illusion.

Don't worry about it Bone. Stefanski isn't going anywhere.

That's a shame. He's a poor head coach who might be good at his next stop. He's not a leader. He's a planner. A thinker. He's not a leader. He's not what the Browns need.

The Browns are doing Watson, the organization, and the fans a huge disservice to move forward with Stefanski into next year.

Honestly, I am not worried at all.

IMO Haslam has learned from his experience as an owner. He has seen what fails because he made those decisions.

Haslam has seen behind the scenes. He had informers. He asked probing questions. Haslam may not be highly visible. But don't think for a moment that he is in the dark. Knee jerk reactions and emotional decisions do not make things improve. There are no quick fixes.

When management decisions are made the results don't pop out of the microwave.

Decisions have repercussions. There are ripples in the water when the stone lands in the lake.

IMO Berry, Depo, Stefanski are more than safe for the time being. Next year will be important. A lot went into the decision to trade for Watson. Part of that decision was based upon Stefanski coaching Watson.

All the reactions of the posters here or on all the forms of coverage have no bearing.

Next year will come and Stefanski will be the head coach. The firing squad on here are shooting blanks.

I agree Bone. My opinion on the Browns? Stay the course on O. Keep the O-line together as best as possible. If we lose Hunt, I'll miss him, but we have decent replacements. Keep KS and let him work with DW, one of the top 5 or 6 QB's in the league. Rust? maybe but I'm sure he'll shake it off and be one of the best again. Get another WR. Concentrate mostly on D. We need a couple of DT's a LB and a FS. With what we have now that should shore up our D. Oh. and I would replace Joe Woods. JMO on the subject matter.

I don't believe anyone has any way of knowing "yet" whether Stefanski will be here next year or not. Look towards those last six games this season to be a determining factor to get a sense for answering that question. It will give Haslam and watson a glimpse into the future.

You see, there are two distinct ways of looking at this and neither side knows how Halsam will be looking at it. On the one hand, as you Peen and some others suggest, continuity and building on what you have in place is certainly one way to see how things will move forward. On the other hand if Haslam feels, and a in large part if watson feels that Stefanski isn't the answer as to who can get you to the promise land with watson, moving forward with that belief in mind would seem pointless and a continuation in futility. That's what everything will hinge on.

When you dedicate 230 million dollars and multiple first round draft picks on what you believe is your franchise QB of the future, you don't move forward with a HC who doesn't share his vision. You don't move forward with a HC who you don't have the faith and belief in can maximize the time you have to win it all with that QB. By contrast you would never move away from a HC you believe can do all of those things.

The jury is still out and the last six games of this season will play out before the jury reaches a verdict.

I'll use the series "Building The Browns" here. Haslam bought the Browns in 2012. They've been "Building The Browns" ever since. And still that construction project has not been completed. The unprecedented contract and trade deal Haslam gave to get watson shows the urgency which Haslam has reached in order to get that job done. Unless he's sure that Stefanski is a critical part in completing that project don't expect to see Stefanski here for long.

I don't believe Watson will have any input on who the head coach is at all.

A player coming from outside the organization until recently is not going to be consulted on a decision of that kind.

Why? Just because he is the future quarterback? What background does Watson have in how a FO works besides a player perspective?
I don't think Dak was telling Jones who to hire.
I don't think Brady was involved in the Bucs decision.

I don't think players tell owners who to hire. Besides being a football player Watson is no beacon of intel on head coaches or the operations of a football team. Berry is the guy who will have to work with and be in sync with a head coach.

That decision is Haslams. Haslam would consult Depo and Berry unless they were part of a purge.

Watson is a new employee and it ends there. Play quarterback and win games.

Follow the money. Haslam married watson with that contract. He's not married to stefanski. Having yourself fooled into thinking the new Golden Boy who the future of the Browns depends on won't be a critical part of influencing Haslam's decision making isn't in any way being realistic. Look around. Tell me which top 5 or 10 NFL QB's have "no say" in their teams decision making? You don't snub the very person you're depending on to make your team great. Take a lesson from what happened in Houston. Do you really think watson agreed to come here with having no say?

I disagree with you.

Franchise quarterbacks make big money. That is where it ends.

What makes you believe that Jimmy Haslam a senior businessman is going consult with Watson?

Take your pick of quarterbacks you tell me. What quarterback told which owner to hire what head coach?

This is an easy one if you actually take a look at the events and circumstances here.

Watson signed a contract extension with Houston and only a little over two months later sat out and refused to play because he had no say in the HC or GM. Now I know the standard reply here. "Yes but Houston told him he would have some say."

So we all know watson certainly wanted some say in the HC decision. Did he actually want to name the new HC? That can be debated but he certainly was demanding some input into that decision.

So now let's move forward to the circumstances when he decided to come to Cleveland. Haslam wasn't the only owner bidding for watson's services. There was a competition between four or five teams. So watson had the leverage of where he was going to go. A no trade clause in his contract insured him of that. Looking at his contract alone shows the desperation teams were willing to go to in order to acquire watson.

So with watson holding all of the leverage, why would anyone believe that he wouldn't demand and get the exact same thing he wanted in Houston? It seems your claim is that he would choose to go somewhere that refused to give him any say in the HC'ing decisions when that was the main sticking point as to why he refused to play on another team while he held all of the cards in the negotiations. To me that's some very fuzzy math.

There's no problem having a difference of opinion ... in fact it is healthy. Apparently (according to some on this board) Baker picker Freddie. That's been stated by the poster who shall remain nameless endlessly.

But specifically with regard to Watson ... who was it that flew at the eleventh hour - after the Browns had been discounted - to offer Watson the world? To give him a guaranteed contract? To beg and give Watson whatever he wanted in order to sign for the Browns ?? Yes - it was "senior business man Jimmy. A little hyperbole there? Maybe - but Jimmy was desperate. Jimmy has tied inextricably his image and reputation on the Watson signing ... not to mention one quarter of a BILLION guaranteed..... If you don't think Jimmy will listen and do pretty much anything Watson demands, I think you misread the balance of power in this relationship.

I disagree.

Watson took the guaranteed money and I think he saw the Browns as contenders. End of story. He blew off the Panthers his home state because that team was going nowhere.

There is no way a quarterback is making business decisions for owners. They are viewed by owners as temporary employees.

Owners go through great extremes to hire search firms for candidates. Then again go through extremes to vent them. Then they narrow the selections until they reach a conclusion and there is at least some agreement with their GM and maybe other executives.

So Watson is going to be involved in that process? Then you may as well make him player/head coach.

You think a head coach worth his salt is going to take orders from his qb? You think Tom Brady bossed around Arians?

What the hell is Watson besides a quarterback?

Owners have enormous ego's. Head coaches are type "A" personalities.

Watson plays quarterback.


The Watson Texans saga is pure speculation. My guess is his issue was the GM who got rid of players that were key to the offense. He complained to the owner and then wanted out.

The owner basically said do your job and shut up.

I think you're confusing naming a next HC with having input on not only should Stefanski stay but who the next HC should be. Those are two different things.

I am not confused at all.

It is my belief that Watson is not involved in any aspect of decision making on that level.

No matter what happens if Haslam wants Stefanski to stay. He stays. Then in is up to Stefanski to make the most of Watson's talent. Adapt the playbook to help the offense and Watson to succeed.

If Haslam decides to move on from Stefanski. Then the next head coach will have the same responsibility.

You make comments like "he is not a motivator. He is not a leader."

How do you know? Are you in the locker room? Do you know someone with direct experience?"

Motivation. When a player has reached professional football how many motivational speeches has he heard?

You know what motivation is in professional football? Money or losing the ability to make it. Players film is broken down in slo-mo by their position coach, coordinator and head coach. Then the film is shown in meetings to everyone. You think players want to screw up? You think they want bad tape?
Bad tape equals no job and no money.

"Ok, team win this one for your mother because she is watching on tv."

What happens when the ball is snapped? You think the player is thinking coach said "win this one for the Gipper, boy I need to do good on this play?"

"He might be good in his next stop." Brilliant. He is a planner. A thinker.

Well we certainly do not want that. Let's go find Freddie. Let's line up some coaching candidates who don't think or plan.

I don't want to get into a debate about KS particularly - but one of the biggest issues for me (other than the record and lack of the HC doping something about the defense) is the way the team has repeatedly over multiple years of KS leadership - come out absolutely flat against teams in big games and key match ups. Again, if this was a one time thing, there might be a host of reasons, when it is a pattern of play and team prep - its an issue. Based on your post above - it's like you believe a HC has no impact on how hard players play and how fired up and prepared they are.

Again - I am not saying fire KS. I am saying I have lost a lot or most of my faith in him and the 6 weeks we see him with Watson is going to be very key to how I feel at the end of the season. There are without doubt issues we have seen over 3 years that have not improved ... as a play caller he gets away from what we do best (run) - he's made repeated in game mismanaged calls - in key games we come out flat - as a HC he is responsible for getting out AHEAD of issues on D and Sp teams and resolving or addressing, has not happened. We went to the playoffs year 1 - with Baker who now everyone wants to label as a bad QB. We've regressed since there. This year Brissett is playing well enough to win and our record is 3-6. Where is the blame? Who is at fault for a team with DT's that don't fir the scheme we run? Who is at fault for a roster devoid of talent at key positions on D? Who is at fault for not demanding available players be signed who would have helped? Berry and KS work together as a team - so when Berry owns some of those issues, so does KS.

I think the simplest way to sum up how I feel is that I believe the questions and concerns are real - KS isn't a good HC in my eyes he is in a "he has to prove it to me" situation. It could go either way. Being a good OC, getting QB's to play above themselves is absolutely NOT what makes a good HC.

He did alright in 2020. I don't think you forget the next year.

It is all about context. You have to look at everything.

What can a head coach control and what can he not control? Think about that.

Think about what happens every year. A team loses a lot of games. Coaches get fired. Teams go looking for head coaches. New coaches get hired.
Sometimes coaches who were fired get hired by another team. If that is not the case coordinators get hired.

Where do the new coaches go? To teams that had losing records. Who controls the roster?

Bill Parcells once said " if you want me to be the cook at least let me pick the ingredients."

I am going to make a general statement about head coaches. Most likely if they were good enough to become a head coach. They can most likely coach.

Organizations lose.

Bill Belichick motivational speech:

"Do your job."

3-6. The team plays uninspired football. When they play a good coaching staff, we look completely out matched. Your stsr players in the media are implying they weren't ready for their opponents. Do I need to list more?

I am actually a little caught off guard by the amount of support Stefanski is getting...not from you, you will support until the evidence is no longer supportable, you always hold out. But there are some smart people on here who I like who support him as well. As I've stated before I attribute it to he doesn't look like a slob, normally doesn't say dumb things, and caught lightning in a bottle year 1. And people at this point have little tolerance for starting over. I get that.

I will admit the thought of starting over again isn't all that appealing, but I trust what I'm seeing way more than any amount of reasons being used to say he needs to stay. This is Baker all over again. Stefanski is not good and is not showing any signs of improvement. He just keeps regressing. And when the Browns are sitting at 4-5 after 9 games next year with Watson AND Stefanski everyone will start calling for his head like its a novel idea. Meanwhile to me all you did was postpone the inevitable and wasted another year of players talent and our fandom.

Browns fans are so used to losing they will accept mediocre very easily. Expect more.

Yep - but it's how you say it. It's how you conduct yourself. If you think BB saying "Do your job" didn't inspire players I think you are wrong. If you think it's easy to inspire people and "Do your job" is an example of how 'easy' it is - I think that's wrong. I think leading and inspiring and motivating - while being attention and detail orientated is HARD. I think KS has the attention to details part on offense, he simply needs to do it across the entire team, all phases of football AND find a way to be authentic and lead/inspire. As I said - he is has not yet proven to be able to do that and be a good HC. jmo

I will tell you what blows my mind.

Given the history Of the Browns since their return. A endless search for a quarterback. And an endless search for a functional front office.

Regime after regime, no regime lasting more than three years. What has been accomplished. 1-31. The worst record in sports.

We have a young head coach and GM who are working together. Finally we have a winning season and a playoff win.

Accomplished with a quarterback that was far from perfect. The head coach and GM inherited that quarterback. Then a not so hot quarterback gets hurt. The entire year quarterback play is ranked at the bottom of the league. The team goes 8-9.

This year they are forced to start the season with a back-up quarterback. Who most said sucks. What happens? He plays pretty damn well.

In fact Baker and Jacoby have their best games under KS.

So, a bump in the road with a back-up quarterback and a losing record. Meanwhile waiting in the wings is Watson. A quarterback Haslam, Berry, and Stefanski wanted to get to replace Baker. A quarterback that took a huge investment to get. After going after Wilson and Rodgers resigning with the Packers.

Watson has not played a down.

And you want to fire Stefanski because you think is not a motivator. GMAFB.

Guess what he will be coaching next year.

One thing that sounds so cliche' but I have found to be so accurate that it's almost amazing. A well coached team is a motivated team. You don't have to be a rah rah or a loud coach to accomplish that. But the cliche' I'm talking about is accurate the vast majority of the time....... "Well coached teams find a way to win." Conversely poorly coached teams find a way to lose.

People need to ask themselves what they have been witnessing to know which one of those types of HC's the Browns have in Stefanski.

If you are a professional athlete. You are self motivated. If you were not. You would never have made it.

If you are relying on speech to motivate you. You are in the wrong business.

I have seen first hand athletes from five years old all the way to major leagues many times. If they were not self motivated there is no way in hell they would have become a professional. The training, preparation, and competition is never ending. The sacrifices are enormous. I have seen players who had it all and never made because they were not self motivated enough to do what it takes. At some point parents wanting it for you or, coaches motivating you all goes away. What you have left is yourself. Chubb does not need motivation. He drove himself.

Belichick does not motivate. He rules by fear. Do your job or you will be gone.

Motivation does not get you through games. Preparation and practice does.

A college kid is screaming let's go kill them guys. How long does that last once on the field? What lasts is technique and knowledge.

I don't care if the head coach is greatest of all time. If he does not have competitive talent. He will not succeed.

If you have no patience with your head coach. And don't stand behind him when things beyond his control happen. Then you become the Cleveland Browns. Repeating mistakes and hoping for a different outcome.

Instead of winning Super Bowls like the Steelers and Ravens.

I agree w/self motivation being important. I dont think a coach should HAVE to be a rah rah guy (they can be, but it’s not one of my prerequisites).

My only issues w/KS is his playcalling at times and his inability to fix the DC malpractice

So some teams are great at identifying "self motivated players" and other team suck at it. Coaching has nothing to do with motivating the team. Do you actually believe that?

What I believe in is talent. Having talent and preparing that talent.

Having a good plan and having the players believe in the plan.

The Titans started out the season 0-3. Then went on to win 6 out of their next 7 games. Tannehill is average at best. There were no major roster changes. Vrabel has been their HC for years now so the system hasn't changed.

So why is it Vrabel can manage to accomplish turning an 0-3 team around while Browns fans are watching a team that can't? Which one or combination of the ingredients you listed is it that the Browns are missing? Because seeing the Titans play they can create a victory from the jaws the of defeat while the Browns can create a defeat from the jaws of victory.

Why is it one of those teams most often times finds and creates a way to win while the other team seems to be doing just the opposite?

Vrabel is an outstanding head coach. His players play for him.

Stefanski's players don't play for him. They just play. Sort of.

Here’s my thing about KS, there’s no growth at all. In fact there’s more evidence of players getting worse the more they play for KS. Baker is a perfect example. First two years it looked like we finally fixed the QB position . Then the more KS had the offense the worse he started looking. Denzel ward is another. The only players that seem to get better is Oline and that’s all Callahan. Just looking around the league and there’s tons of evidence that coaching matters and having the right one pays immediate dividends and can turn around quickly, same way the opposite happens, having the wrong coach ruins teams. KS is mediocre as a HC and barely average playcaller and way below as a leader and teacher. He should not be here next year. He’s had his shot. It’s time to stop accepting mediocrity and excuses.

I don't follow the Titans.

Is the season over?

Your reply speaks volumes.

After the first sentence BS.

Baker Mayfield and Jocoby have played their best ball under KS.

Look around the league. Take a closer look. Try Denver, Las Vegas, Detroit, Jacksonville, Carolina, Houston, Colts, Bears, Cardinals, Saints.

You’re clueless if you think 3-7 is the best ball of his career. That’s like being skinniest kid at fat camp. And baker came into the league good and got worse the longer he played for stefanski. And yes.. look around the league at teams that god better or worse with right/wrong coach.

Loud and clear.

The record is 3-6. I think there are seven games to play.

All of this is garbage. KS is the head coach and will be.

So I guess you know all about everything titans. More power to you.

When next season ends let's revisit this. Until then the firing squad can keep shooting blanks.

Over and out.

I've never promoted the idea of firing Stefanski. All I've asked is that people be rational and objective about the situation at hand. I'm really not having much luck with that obviously.

Having a firm grasp of the obvious doesn't require knowing "all about everything".

Baker played for Hue, Williams, Freddie and did what?

2020 under KS he had his best season by far.

Check Jacoby's qb ranking and stats.

The right or wrong coach maybe you define that a little?

The listed teams all got new coaches had that work out?

Why is Richard Bisaccia not a HC right now?
Currently ST coordinator with the Packers but man, looking at the Raiders from Gruden to him to McDanials, he looks like a guy I would want as a HC of my team

Can Stefanski take this team to a Super Bowl
Yes or no.

I think SKI could take us to a Super Bowl and maybe win one. But he is definitely still learning his job and will continue to make mistakes we fans find as firable offenses. Honestly, I would like to see Ski as HC for at least 2 more seasons. He has HIS QB now, get a new DC, and let's roll in 23. But if we are not in the playoffs in 23 and 24, or by the time Ski's contract is up (thru 23?) and we're not 100% sure he's the guy, then yes, get a new HC. But I don't think we are that far out of contention and there is no need to make changes for the sake of changes. Been there, done that.

A new HC just resets the 5-year plan. And I'd like to just once, realize and materialize a 5-year plan's results.

Baker won more games for Freddy then this current coach I rest my case.
Also he has more all pros on offense then the rest of the division.
So no excuses 3 wins for stefanski sense Mayfield left.
Mayfield
Jordan davis
Ojabo
And a trade for Jarrett.
Would absolutely smash t his team then we could draft
Zach Harrison de
Zay flowers wr Boston College
Garrett Williams db Syracuse
Anyways these geniuses must be getting worried about there jobs.

You do know Baker Mayfield is not a good QB right?

Stefanski coaches like his seat is safe no matter what. Like he has all the time in the world.

He thinks he's safe until next year with Watson. That is unacceptable to me. I'd show the entire coaching staff the door at the end of the season. I don't care of Stefanski won COY in a covid season, NFL stands for not for long. What have you done for me lately?

I'd let Callahan take over, perhaps Sean Payton, Brian Flores. Speaking of Callahan, I wonder how often Stefanski picks his brain, if at all? I mean the man did take a team to the super bowl. Something tells me Stefanski is either an egomaniac or he's taking too much advice. Not from Callahan but Depodesta.

It all makes sense now. It's the Ivy Code. See Quantrell Bishops videos on YouTube.

Payton would never come to Cleveland. First of all, we don't have the assets required to give to New Orleans. Second, he would never come here with Haslam and Depo here. Heck, he might not come here because of Berry. I think you could talk him into Berry, but I think it would be a hard sell.

Fire the WHOLE front office aka Berry, Depo and KS!

KS is pathetic! No fire! No sense of urgency! Nothing but a few scripted plays and he petters out!

Berry IS PATHETIC at drafting players! Ray Farmer was better! LOL!!!!!

Too bad we can't fire the DAMN owner!

WE ARE THE ORIGINAL GROUNDHOG DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

The coaching staff has lost the defensive side of this team. They come out and play decent, and once the opposition makes a few adjustments they are a discombobulated, directionless mess. Game after game after game. You've got players not so subtly calling out the coaching staff in the media....and no one coming to the coach's defense! What does that tell you about the leadership? Hell, a player you expect to be one of the leaders is doing the calling out. If Sefanski doesn't have the stones to fire Woods, he's part of the problem and needs to go.

Brian Billick won a Super Bowl.

Is Mike Tomlin a good head coach?

Here is his record for the last three years:

12-4, 9-7-1, 3-7
=========================

Stefanski:

11-5, 8-9, 3-7
=========================


Stefanski vs Tomlin record 4-2

Oh, I love this kind of BS comparison excuse for Stefanski. Tomlin is in his 16th season - how many losing season's has Tomlin had during that timeframe? Answer: zero to date - 2022 may be his first ever. How many losing seasons for Stefanski? Answer: on pace to have 2 of 3 seasons with a losing record. In Stefanski's career with the Browns, how many years has he made the playoffs? Answer: only 1. Same question for Tomlin: Since joining the Steelers in 2007, he has led the team to ten playoff runs 66.7%, seven division titles 46.6%, three AFC Championship Games 20%, two Super Bowl appearances 13.3%, and a title in Super Bowl XLIII.

Even speaking of Stefanski in the same breath as Tomlin as a HC is an absolute joke. Pittsburgh may be down this year but what's the confidence level outside this forum as to the coach that will turn their misfortunes around? Outside this bias forum, 99% of people would say Tomlin has a better chance of righting the ship. Thanks for the joke comparison though - made me laugh real hard and needed that after watching the Browns Sunday.

Now I'm confused.
You told us all summer that this was one of the most talented rosters in the league.Here you are telling us that KS is a good head coach.How do you explain a good HC + a talented roster equating to a 3-7 record?

Really?

But it is ok to judge KS in his first three years?

OK total BS.

But it is ok to say "what have you done lately when you want it to?"

Absolutely. Most talented roster in 2022 as stated in this forum: upgrade at WR (Cooper), upgrade at QB by two players (Watson & Brissett), top 5 defense, best RB combo in the league, best OL in the NFL, DE bookends second to none, and got rid of the cancerous QB that cost Stefanski the 2021 season that's equated to 3 wins in 10 games so far in 2022 - damn right KS should be judged and seriously judged.

When the owners have a tendency to make irrational, emotional and unexpected decisions they make the rest of the organization anxious and indecisive. You become a product of your environment and with that follows leaders who’re not strong enough to take individual decisions based on their own knowledge and experience.

This is why I suspect that the working environment inside Berea isn’t healthy and isn’t built on trust and loyalty.

It’s obvious that the Browns needs changes among their coaches. It’s not so much about finding a scapegoat but more a matter of showing that with bad results comes accountability. If Kev Stefanski had working inside a healthy and stable organization then he would have the confidence and authority to make decisive changes without worrying about the consequences.

Andrew Berry show similar limitations. His leadership is shadowed by the owners and it’s hard to find a reasonable logic in his decision making.

First he show decisiveness by moving on from Baker. Then his organization get rejected by Watson but Berry isn’t strong enough to take notice with all the red flags so when the Haslams move on with a guaranteed $230m contract nobody around the owners challenge this decision and from that moment they’re all prisoner of bad decision making. Anybody with more then two brain cells could tell that the NFL would never allowed Watson to be a major factor for the Browns in 2022. The season was practically over since Mars and that’s why the whole organization acts crippled when results doesn’t go as expected.

Andrew Berry and Kev Stefanski needs to take command of their own future if they wants to continue as a GM and HC. They live and die with their results. Kev is probably a excellent OC but in a situation like this he needs to focus on being a HC. If Kev isn’t strong enough to fire J Woods then Berry needs to show decisiveness and take action.

A few more losses and no significant changes when Watson is back and there’s a chance that the train has left the station when the season is over and that without our GM and HC.

Who would sit at the head of the table...Jimmy Haslam or Sean Peyton..?

Haslam would have to hand over the seat at the head of the table to Peyton...and then allow Peyton to run the franchise as he see fit.

Jimmy Haslam is still trying to live out his fantasy and would never allow anyone to challenge his authority...jmho

If you can not see the player failures on this team then you are not looking.

But you have no problem naming players who are busts.

If players are failing on the field, who's responsible for that failure? If the players are not performing up to skill level for Stefanski in 2022, what makes you think they will in 2023? In rebuttal, I have named those players as failures as well as what I see as busts. The issue becomes when people won't accept those opinions. When I talk about the OL tackle positions being a huge issue going into 2023, I get they are adequate. When I talk about the highest paid CB in football stinking up the joint, I get he has potential. When I talk about the HC not doing his job because he's not just the OC, I get that he's not the DC. When I point out that when you compare Baker 2021 to Brissett 2022, the injured Baker has clearly outperformed Brissett to date, I get called a Baker Boy.

You don't want to hear about the Browns failures or busts. You're just looking for an excuse or someone to blame for the FO and Stefanski's clear shortcomings. Last year it was all Baker's fault. This year it's all Woods fault. The only constant is Berry and Stefanski and you refuse to hold them to the same level of accountability. I don't have that problem. Excuses are like azzholes, everybody has one and Stefanski and Berry are the poster children of excuses.

"You don't want to hear about the Browns failures or busts."

Perhaps you need to go back read what I have written.

" Last year it was all Baker's fault. This year it's all Woods fault."

Again perhaps you need to go back and read what I have written.

Every post you write is always coming from the same point of reference before a word is written. Then you frame your post around that.

Some say going down with a sinking ship is an admirable quality. Others realize that the end result is you drown. I'll send you a snorkel.

thx
I have a scuba tank

Cool. Make sure you keep it full.

You see, some such as yourself claim it's not a HC's job to keep his players motivated. Yet all of us who have watched the NFL for decades know that's not true. We've watched it with our own eyes that good and the great HC's in the NFL actually do that.

Basic job responsibilities seem to escape some such as yourself. The chain of command seem to escape you. Just as a refresher course here.

The HC is in charge of the entire team. Not one side of the ball.

He hires HIS coaching "staff". They work under and through his authority. As such he is responsible for the outcome and performance of the staff he has hand picked and hired.

Trying to dance around that is something that can easily be seen through.

Thank for your expertise.

I am truly humbled.

Reality can sometimes work that way.

Oh wise oracle which way did he go?

Could you explain one thing in my post that was incorrect?

Are you claiming that good and great HC's don't motivate their players?

Is the HC not responsible for the coaches HE hired and is the boss of?

While we keep hearing how "the offense is fine" as some reason Stefanski is a good HC, there's really nothing about the HC'ing duties or responsibilities to back up that claim. So if you could just pause from being a smart ass long enough to address the questions that would be nice.

That is something that you will never see on this forum. Chastising forum posters with different opinions - you betcha but answers to real questions - not in your lifetime.

I will agree if it doesn't happen. We just might disagree on when. I don't think doing that now would help anything.

Do you?

Just a quick question re: Watson and his potential impact on Stefanski

I have not followed Watson or his previous team. That being said wtf happened for them to go 4-12 when Watson had his best season? His prior two season were very good and Watson’s record as a starter was 11-5 and 10-5. Are we really sure that we can count on high production turning into wins next year?

I think I have stated quite clearly in this thread and the Joe Woods thread what my position is.

I started with the end of the 2021 season. I made it clear that there is blame to go around.

Motivation. Players are motivated. Coaches are motivated. If you think "win one for the Gipper" before a game is going to motivate a professional football player for a game. And that is going to sustain them somehow. Then believe it. I do not believe that anyone involved in professional sports or for that matter amateur sports wants to lose. That is motivation. NFL football is a business. The people involved are dedicated.

Coaches don't walk around spouting motivation speeches. Slogans are all over the walls. Motivation is in the weight room and on the practice field.

Talent, smart planning, and proper preparation wins games.

Nothing lasting is accomplished when you do not correct problems. Firing everyone when identified problems can be corrected is not a solution.

Patience in ownership when you make hiring decisions works better than emotional knee jerk reactions.

Yes, it would show that Stefanski has a set and is the leader a HC is supposed to be. Woods has already lost this defense, and Stefanski's on the verge of losing the team. Keeping Woods is a disaster. He should have been canned weeks ago. Same crap for almost 3 years, I don't know what the hesitation is.

I tend to agree. When d players are vaguely calling out the do coach............uh, yeah, the d coach has lost the d.

At least Woods hasn't, to my knowledge, come out and said "the Bills didn't do what we thought they'd do....."

Browns, Steelers, Jaguars, Raiders, Broncos, Rams, all 3-7

Panthers, Bears, 3-8, Texans are 1-8-1,


Who gets fired?

"The only stat that actually matters is the win/loss column. Everything else is just putting lipstick on a pig.

And there are a few posters on this board that have a huge investment in lipstick."

Funny that you just posted that, I was just looking at the draft order.

If the season ended today, Houston would draft 1st overall and also have our #7 pick.

This season is as challenging as Bud Carson's second season was, if not worse, and he was fired midway through. I think the D is on pace to be worse than the Season From Hell year of 1990 (28.8 ppg, 462 points).

stop

I don't need to read any more after that.

What changes is needed from your perspective?
When to do it?

Today I think Ztevanzki iz the bezt coach the Brownz have had zince Mike Pettine.
The day iz almost over, ten more minutez.

Maybe so. Who would take over?

I just don't see the point at this point. You really couldn't change the scheme.

I don't want to keep the guy. I just don't see how doing that now would do any good other than satisfy fans who are out for blood.

JMO

Who would take over ?

That is also part of Stefanski's job. Maybe berry too. I've read and seen coaches talking about always having a staff list.

When Hue was fired mid season, Todd Haley was also fired as OC. We found replacements... It worked out pretty well.

jmo...the Browns ownership and management are just trying to get through the season with the hope that some wins with Watson will help get minds off of the present mess...then they can make some changes in a more orderly and normal way.

Problem is, now it's the players themselves speaking out, beginning to question the entire franchise and their lack of urgency, allowing another season of their careers to be wasted in Cleveland.

I'm not piling on and out for blood. I want to STOP the bleeding. The players themselves are trashing the guy in the press and it's only going to get worse. We'd be doing both Woods and the team a favor by letting him go.

This. Plus, Stefanski has lost the team. How do you move forward with that?

The FO is probably figuring there will be more candidates to choose from at the end of the season. More coaches will become available. That's my guess.

That is undoubtedly true. Not sure that's a good enough reason in my books. Any DC appointed from within would be "interim".

Yeah, I don't really understand the "wait" approach at all.

Sure, there are more candidates at the end of the season... there are also more openings. You'd think we would know that since we are nearly always left at the altar. Besides, nobody's making you choose now just because you fire the guy now.

At least then every prospect who is thinking about it knows the door is wide open. It also gives others that may not have been considering a move a reason to question their allegiance to their current organization, especially if they have any history with people in our org.

And if you don't think "tampering" goes on, in one way or another, you're crazy. In many cases, these dudes start getting their ducks in a row waaay before the end of the season.

I you are defensive coach and ready to move up to a DC level, one quality you look for in your next career move is the quality of the franchise and if they are "knee jerk" outfit that is easily moved to make changes based on the media or fan reaction. Those kind of franchises are a red flag for any DC candidate looking for their next stepping stone to DC and hopefully the next and potentially last career move to a HC position.

Haslam might have to start handing out "guaranteed contracts" to get coaches to take a job with the Browns after this season.

One of the greatest concerns facing ownership and management for the upcoming season has to be RETAINING the offensive coaches, especially Callahan, Van Pelt and Stump Mitchell, imo.

The Browns issues could become magnified if Haslam isn't prepared to open his checkbook even further to retain the offensive coaches and hire top shelf defensive coaches.

I believe that to a great extent you are correct. But then that's not what I said. Some men are natural leaders. People believe in them and follow them. People will fight like hell for them. But by far the vast majority of people aren't like that. Which is why you have great generals in the military. There are natural leader of men then there are those who are not. I'm seeing a team that is not motivated a lot of the time.


How has that been working out? You do remember how talented you said this team was going into the season, right? So then why are we 3-7? Lack of proper planning and or preparation? I mean you gave three reasons why teams win games and you've obviously claimed the talent is there. So which of these three are lacking and exactly who is it you claim is responsible for the game plans and having the team prepared?


That's the exact point I'm trying to make.


How long do you suggest people use patience when they see problems are not being addressed and corrected? Because I see it a lot the way you do. But at some point you're making the decision to keep wasting time on what's broken and not being fixed. There's a tipping point at a certain juncture.

I think Halsm has proven beyond any doubt he doesn't have a problem using that checkbook. The problem more seems to be that he has been writing a lot of the wrong people those checks.

Excellent post

Agreed. I don't understand the dislike for Jimmy Haslam. His outside business endeavors aside what exactly has he done to be disliked as he is. He had to be the one to give the okay to trade and then sign DW to that record and unprecedented, unpopular contract. He had to know he'd get grief from the other owners and everyone else especially considering the legal mess DW was in. He's trying to bring a winner here. That's what we all want. I had my reservations about trading for DW because of his alleged actions but what's done is done and this is what we have. We have no control over it. Is there any proof other than the DW situation that JH is interfering with the team? I haven't heard of any unless I missed something.

Are all our former coaches paid off yet? I think there were a couple times when three were on the payroll.

No doubt. My only point is that I don't think that would change anything. I don't think you could make any meaningful changes to scheme. We might be able to blitz more. Maybe that would do something positive. Then again, maybe not.

I just don't see much point in firing Woods just to satisfy an itch.

We also have to consider that when the change is made, it isn't going to be simply a DC or even defensive staff that is going to be changed. If only that is changed and we don't see major turnover in defensive personnel, a staff change isn't going to do much, and that is part of the reason why I don't think just putting everything on Wood's plate is the answer.

Our D line sucks. Our backers are pretty weak, and our safeties suck. If we don't do something about that, the team might as well name either of us defensive coordinator.

The deficiencies at the defensive side of the ball are glaring, both in talent and scheme. Our DL is incredibly soft and I think our LBs are as blah as it gets.

In terms of the secondary, that’s where i see total miscommunication and lack of either knowing what to do or caring enough to do it.

A few questions. Anyone know how many other teams run the same scheme we do? Can someone tell me what the 49ers run? Would people still say the scheme sucks if over half the snaps in the NFL were run w/the same scheme as we use? Wanna know what the main difference between SF and us is? It's not the scheme, folks. It's that they have two monster DTs that create havoc and two kick ass LBers that make a ton of plays. This allows the secondary to sit back and play the ball. They had a great segment on this yesterday on NFL Live.

Rarely do you see me question NFL coaches. Wanna know why? It's because they know way more about football than I do. Yet, I read posts from multiple posters on here daily, such as the OP of this thread who don't know jack squat about the Xs and Os and they complain about scheme and play calling. It's a freaking joke. But, a cruel joke because these know-nothings are championing men losing their livelihood. Men w/wives and children. Men who have dedicated their entire lives to the game. Classy.

LMAO - you talk about "classy" after an personal attacking post like this? You are a joke - as if people expressing an opinion on a message board is "championing" anything.

As for Woods and him as a coach - it matters not what scheme he runs, he can run the same scheme as the best defense in the NFL but if he doesn't coach it correctly, if players don't know their assignments, if he constantly calls bad play calls in situations .... it does not matter what the rest of the NFL thinks or does or does not do with their 'base' defense. When a Superbowl winning QB tells the world the Browns D (Woods D) is easy to dissect and attack every play .... maybe it's worth paying attention to?

Wow - so bad takes and outright lies in a lot of your posts - but this ranks up there with spamming the boards calling posters "evil" for an entire inebriated afternoon or PM'ing posters threatening them with legal action. smh

IMO if we just had 2 topflight DTs on our team it would make our D decidedly better. We still might need a LB or 2 but I really believe our D would be much better with the guys we've got right now.

Agree - I think anyone/everyone agrees. Which begs the question how and why did KS/JW end up with the guys we have on the roster? Or how did they stay on the roster? But beyond that we have heard a lot from players about knowing assignments and confusion ... well coached defenses/units don't have those issues.

Exactly and I don't know how our coaches could have been satisfied with what we had at DT when the season began. Heck, we all saw this in the summer that we had this weakness at DT. They had to know this would be a problem for us stopping the run. We've had that problem many times before and our D couldn't get off the field. Someone messed up big time.

What Vers is missing is that scheme alone doesn't equal success. You don't have to be an expert to hear a player explain that the players are confused and don't know what they're supposed to be doing. You can have the greatest scheme in the world and have the experience to deserve a shot at the job. But implementing that scheme where the success of that scheme shows up on the field of play is an entirely different animal.

That's what separates those qualified to deserve a shot at such a job from those who succeed at that job. Many great football minds have lacked the ability to transfer their knowledge onto the field of play via their players. But I guess we should all ignore what we've been seeing and now beginning to hear first hand.

By this rationale every coach in the NFL is good. That doesn't make any sense.

What.does make way more sense is Stefanski is about as incompetent as they come and doesn't deserve to be the head coach of a football team. I want him fired so bad I can't see straight. I want him fired for making me watch his poorly coached team then acting like I'm an idiot in pressers. I want him fired for wasting another year of so many talented players careers. He's a joke. A clown. A guy who's picture should be next to the term "Peter principle". I don't care about him, his wife, kids, nothing. I care about watching winning football. When you don't prioritize winning you deserve to be fired. It's pretty simple. Screw him. I'll help pack the uhaul.

KS is guaranteed $20million... just another fake agenda and contrived narrative

Kev Stefanski's stats as a OC and play caller is more then good but we're still 3-7 and if we end up less then 0.5 then it's hard to describe this season in other terms then a failure. Berry should take the majority of the blame but I suspect he's a coward and will hide behind sacking his DC.


Berry
Woods
Stefanski

In that order.

Do you realize that you are in agreement w/the likes of 888, Pit, WSU, etc? Think about that for a minute. LOL

Rather than the football God of the board, right?

And here I thought we liked talking football and differing opinions are a good thing. More lies by a narcissistic old man who acts like the mom of an 8th grade cheerleader...who didn't make the squad.

Some know more than others about football, like someone said- if we, posters, were so smart we'd prove to owners we need a shot at "their jobs"- HC, DC, OC, ST- I agree with those who call for folks being held accountable- HC isn't really HC for outside- he's mostly involved with O- and it's been pretty good for years--but, bottomline- he's responsible for whole thing and it has sucked collectively. The players play- but if they can't figure out all the special "reads" and we lose games at end for stupid stuff- that sucks. All teams have weaknesses, Berry and company thought passing more critical than run D- it has cost us. Haslams need to make a decision. Having continuity only good when results support the status quo. Go Browns!!! sigh, another lost season.

Rish, for the record...............>I was replying to a series of posts about our defense and Woods.

That doesn't change the fact that I completely disagree w/your evaluation of Stefanski, but it's important I clarify my post because I keep reading posts that say our defensive scheme is trash. I ask..........how would any of those guys even know that? How do they know it isn't a talent issue? When you see two DTs getting blown back 5+ yards off the ball on a consistent basis.......is that really a schematic issue? I just think guys like the OP are full of crap. Plain and simple.

First off , nice thread to read . I think alot of our problems begin with no-one being held accountable. In life you get what you accept. Players not held accountable, coaches not held accountable, GM not held accountable and most of all ownership not held accountable.

Oh I certainly agree that coaches in the NFL know more about the game of football than any poster on this board could even come close to. But then so do many, many people who have tried and failed at being DC, OC position coaches and HC's in the NFL. If just "knowing the game" decided which people made good coaches the success rate among coaches would be extremely high. But then why isn't it?

And the answer as to why is a very simplistic one. That's because once you get a job at one of these coaching positions you must also be the leader of men. And I'm not as much talking about Stefanski here even though as you mentioned, it's he who is responsible for hiring this entire football staff and having final say over the game plan on both sides of the ball.

Having a great scheme and being knowledgeable about the game doesn't mean you can teach players how to run and execute your scheme. It doesn't mean you can get what's in your head to translate onto the field during game time. It doesn't mean your communication and teaching skills rise to the level of having a successful unit or team. That's where the disconnect seems to be coming from.

And being a HC is even more difficult. It means you must have the ability to oversee your entire coaching staff at every level. Because no matter how hard people try and deflect, when it comes to the HC, that's where the responsibility lies.

Absolutely correct. But how good/bad they are is not based on how they do compared to posters on this board but rather to the to the other coaches in the league.

Agree with you ant pit.... you know what is interesting, we have allowed the narrative to be changed. I don't remember anyone saying the scheme sucks, I remember lots of posters saying Joe Woods is a trash defensive coordinator. Notice how someone is now framing this discussion about scheme. The agenda and bull crap never stops and maybe that's because someone was supporting woods 100% and telling everyone they were wrong, and that's clearly and indefensible position anymore

We should see if Indy hires somebody else and then go get Jeff Saturday.

jk, Ski's not going anywhere. Woods might not even be fired.

Woods better be fired come hell or high water.

The man is a disgrace. A menace.

I imagine that is the plan at this point, but who knows? Woods always comes on strong late in the season.

Your summarizing is spot on.

I wish more people would move on from micro analyzing things like scheme, routs, formations, player/coach, mistakes or whatever the flavor of the day is and start focusing on the bigger picture. The Browns major problem are structural and is a consequence of poor leadership.

Look at our results the last 3 years and ask yourself if we’re trending upwards or downwards?
Is the quality of our roster improving, standing still or is it declining?
Do we see improvements in the FO’s decision making?

Andrew Berry has to take the majority of the blame that our roster is shockingly unbalanced.
Kevin Stefanski has to accept serious criticism due his lack of action and not holding his staff accountable for our declining results.
Joe Woods contributions speaks for itself.

Being 3-7, players showing signs of not being 100% committed, coaches not up to standard and nobody are hold accountable is without a doubt poor leadership.

Kevin Stefanski has a lot’s of good qualities but his leadership and decision making must be questioned. As a HC his responsibilities is wider the just saying he’s frustrated and being our play caller.

Gosh, I can’t see Woods surviving (or Priefer). I’d be surprised and disappointed if they do

Well stated, even with his Coach of Year award, I'm not convinced our HC is a good head coach- his results aren't there with the talent he has. I think he short changes other aspects of game due to his love of O. I'd force him to give up play calling and spend the time overseeing his total staff. Go Browns!!! Delegating is great, but who takes the blame- the HC.

I don't know what is going to happen for sure, but I do feel the last 6 games will play a big part and determine what decisions will be made after the season. If we start playing better on O and things become more consistent there, then KS will not be fired. I don't think he's going anywhere no matter, but we'll see. On D, things have to be changed that's obvious with a new DC and some new players and we know where we need them. The one thing I'm concerned about is DW coming in with a banged-up O-line. We won't be able to access the O and DW fairly with some starters out.

What is missed in this entire discussion about scheme is the players to play the scheme. If, in this example the Browns are missing that asset, you don't have the players that are suited to run the scheme then you develop a scheme that takes advantage of your players skill set. This is coaching 101 and Stefanski needs to repeat the course multiple times. It doesn't matter if every team in the NFL is running the 4-2-5 scheme (only 11 at last count), if you don't have the players with the skill set you sure the hell don't just run the scheme anyway. This is called, get ready for it, making adjustments and building your defense/offense to the skill sets your players possess. Example, you don't bench a Jackson or a Hurst because they are not your a-typical drop back QB. You alter your offensive scheme to take advantage of their skill set. Because Atlanta and Baltimore became the poster children for the running QB, every team in the NFL is trying to fill that void now. It's not even a question if it's right or wrong, but you can't draft that type of player and expect them to play your standard old skill set. Stefanski now has two consecutive years of failure as the HC because he refuses or doesn't know how to adjust the scheme to the skill sets of the players he has on the roster. Only an idiot would trot out his players week after week playing the same 4-2-5 defensive scheme when it's common knowledge that he doesn't have a single interior defensive lineman or linebacker for that matter that is capable of playing that scheme.

As far as the talent issue presented, let's go back to Jackson for example. If Jackson had been forced by Baltimore to play in the same scheme as what was installed for Flacco or vice versa, would either of those guys been starting QB's? Really, is there a single person on this forum that believes that Jackson would still be starting in BAL if he was forced to play QB like a Brady, Rodgers, or Ryan? He would have been let go years ago. As a HC, you have to be able to adjust your scheme to the talent or skill set of the players you have on the roster. Stefanski has shown he can't adjust to anything whether it's the adjustments needed during every game or the adjustments needed due to the skill sets of his players. This is not going to change by firing Woods on any other coach on his staff because he's incapable of making those type of adjustments and having someone different following your scheme doesn't mean a thing if you don't have the players capable of playing the scheme.

Sad part is that it will probably be status quo going into next year with Berry and Stefanski until about week 7-8 before the firing begins that should start this January meaning another wasted year of the talent the Browns have because they have a HC incapable of scheme adjustment's that no one wants to recognize. It's not the scheme, it's the inability of the HC to adjust the scheme to his players skill set.

Excellent points.
We were only 4 points away from taking kc out of the playoffs.
Now we are in last place everyone needs to be hd accountable.

Seems like anticipating having our pick of the litter.

Well when you put it like that. Frown

Thank you have a nice day.

Ohio State looked like they were running the Stefanski offensive/defensive schemes today. Offense: great first 25 plays and no adjustments to what Michigan defense adjusted too after that and Defense: Did those Ohio Stat safeties go to the Browns minicamp? How many times does it take for a defense to get burned before you adjust? One of the best backs in the country sidelined and the team gets held to 10 yds rushing in the first half and then explodes for 242 yds rushing in the second half against a team with no answers. It was like watching the Browns replays all over again the last 10 weeks.

Maybe there's something in the Ohio water?

Excellent post
I am retired military in Jackson hole Wyoming so you would know better
Than me.
Truthfully if the front office goes can this team be straightened out in a off
Season?

The nucleus is there but the HC leadership is so lacking it's a disgrace. On the surface it would look like Berry is doing a somewhat good job but his refusal to address WR and DT in the last off season is very disturbing. Then when you look at some of the contracts he's signed players too and then their subsequent performance - somethings missing that a good GM shouldn't be missing. The other issue I just don't get is the hanging on to players when it's clearly obvious they are not making the grade. Elliott, Schwartz, and Felton just to name a few.

Here's my biggest concern. Last year Stefanski kept playing a seriously injured QB that a Pee Wee League coach could see was struggling due to the effects of the injury. The QB that led your team to its first playoff win in 20 plus years as a top 5 QB was hung out to dry instead of pulling the guy - just a piss poor coach. Stefanski is the HC, it is his and only his decision who plays or doesn't every week. This year, the defense has sucked so bad that it is very near being the worst in the league. The press, some on this forum, and obviously the FO are all deflecting the blame from who should be accountable in Stefanski to the DC who's actually running Stefanski's created defensive scheme.

So, for 2-years now the Browns have waisted the talents of Garrett, Clowney, Chubb, Teller, Bitonio and other quality players because of Stefanski's total lack of HC leadership. Now the Browns are getting our 230M guaranteed QB back from a sexual predator suspension for a HC who has regressed every year he's coached the team - FACT. If the Browns keep Stefanski, what happens in 2023 if the Browns start out 3-6 with our 230M QB? With the contracts the Browns have in place and those coming up, the win window for the Browns is the next year or two at best before there will have to be a serious roster adjustment. If the Browns go with Stefanski and they actually do struggle next year (better chance than not considering what he's produced as the HC the last two years), that will be 3 years of wasting some of the best talent in the entire NFL. So, the question is: if you had 2 billion dollars invested in the Browns, are you willing to take that gamble again next year after your HC has failed you miserably the last two years? IMHO, you have to win when you have the opportunity to win. That means using FA, the draft, and your current players to present your HC with the best opportunity to win within that very small win window due to the NFL parity. As of now, the jury says Berry and Stefanski have both failed miserably in the last 2 years and if I'm a betting man - I wouldn't bet to see anything different in 2023 if they're still here because they just blew the last 2 years and have never adjusted. Just the facts of observing them in a result driven league!

People have their own opinions about KS and that's fine but the one thing I've seen with this team is that they're still fighting and haven't given up on the season. I believe that reflects on the HC. They play hard for him!!

I disagree with this. The fact is even after yesterday the Browns are 4-7, looked listless and uninspired in many of those losses, have had multiple reported players only meetings, players calling out the coaching staff in the media, and a bottom eighth defense that looks like they aren't prepared as much as they might be untalented.

I think yesterday's game was the players playing for themselves and Brissett.

I totally agree. This team has not given up. They do play hard. There was the Miami game where the D didn't show up, but the team has fought hard all year long. Anyone saying otherwise is just chasing their agenda.

Anyone watching the performances this year will have seen wildly different levels of preparedness, effort, confusion, communication, finger pointing and angst at the performance (by players and fans). To say otherwise is a flat out lie. Effort and desire and attitude has been an issue in more than the Miami game.

They battled... this is such a low bar. They are pros getting paid millions to get out there and play hard for him. It's what they are supposed to do, and losing is never a reason to mail it in with any NFL GM, so their futures count on playing hard and not giving up. A very low bar indeed.

Holly crap people - are we that desperate for a winner that you'll just completely ignore what has really happened to this team the last 2-years? In 2020, the Browns were 8-3 at this stage of the season. In 2021, the Browns were 6-5 at this stage of the season playing with an injured QB and a HC to afraid to do his job bench the guy with posters on this forum screaming for the QB's head. In 2022, the Browns are 4-7 with only 5 teams in the entire league with less wins to this point with 4 of those just 1 game behind us. All of this happening with a so-called backup QB that has had now 48 career starts and you're trying to say the HC has exhibited great team leadership while playing OC with an inferior non-injured QB these first 11 games? Really?

Statistically speaking, Brissett preformed about as well as expected considering his actual starting experience. However, comparing those 11 games to the first 11 in 2020 and 2021, just some quick comparison numbers:

Completion %: Mayfield 2021 @ 64.9%, Brissett 2022 @ 64.1%, Mayfield 2020 @ 61.2%
Yards gained per attempt: Mayfield 2021 @ 7.993, Mayfield 2020 @ 7.170, Brissett 2022 @ 7.087
TD Passes: Mayfield 2020 @ 17, Brissett 20220 @ 12, Mayfield 2021 10
INT's: Mayfield 2020 @ 7, Mayfield 2021 @ 6, Brissett 2022 @ 6
TD/INT Ratio: Mayfield 2020 @ 2.43, Brissett 2022 @ 2.00, Mayfield 2021 @ 1.67
Sacks: Mayfield 2020 @ 17, Brissett 2022 @ 24, Mayfield 2021 @ 27
Fumbles: Mayfield 2020 @ 3, Mayfield 2021 @ 5, Brissett 2022 @ 6
QBR: Mayfield 2020 @ 101.86, Mayfield 2021 @ 101.44, Brissett 2022 @ 95.65

Statistically speaking, Brissett did not perform better than an injured Mayfield from 2021. People can have their own opinion but statistically, Brissett being better than an injured Mayfield is a false narrative. The other false narrative then would have to be that Stefanski has not elevated the play of the QB's since he's been here in Cleveland because the H/C's W/L record challenges that narrative.

Back to the topic, there's one constant that is occurring to the Browns. Now, in 2021, all the woes of the team were placed on the injured QB play. Right or wrong, at this point in the season, in 2021 the Browns were two games worse than the previous year. That upset the fans and obviously the FO/HC because they decided to take a different route at QB in 2022. In 2022, at this point in the season, the Browns are two games worse than the previous year and 4 games worse than 2020. Though statistically speaking the QB play has not actually improved, the blame game this year is strictly focused on the DC Woods and the ST coach. The only real constant that is evident both years of regression is that Stefanski is the HC. In neither year, to this point, has the blame been placed at the feet of the person who is actually accountable for this team falling off the cliff - Stefanski.

So, what do the Browns have to look forward to in 2023. Looking at Watson's past performance:

There's no question that Watson is an upgrade to the position. However, upgrade at the position doesn't equate to wins if you have other issues and the Browns have other major issues.

In 2019, Watson made the Pro Bowl as the 5th QBR rated QB leading the Texans to 10 wins and a playoff appearance.

In 2020, Watson made the Pro Bowl as the 3rd QBR rated QB but the Texans fell to 4-12 on the season losing their HC after 4 games and eventually Watson refusing to play in 2021. The defense for the Texans was ranked 29th in 2020 and 22nd in 2019 both slots performing better than this year's Browns defense.

Watson was not able to elevate his team even with his improved play from 2019 to 2020 as they performed 6 wins worse than the previous season. Keep in mind, the HC Bill O'brien only had 1 losing season in his first 6 full years in Houston (fired after an 0-4 start in 2020) and was in the playoffs 4 of the other 5 years (a 66.7% playoff appearance rate).

Final point, IMHO - Stefanski's poor leadership and HC deficiencies will be exposed in 2023. That most likely will lead to his dismissal mid-season thus ruining another year of our best players and playoff opportunity because Berry won't make the hard move that's screaming at him which unfortunately will probably cost him his position too.

Steve you made some good points, and you could be right about KS in 2023 but there's no denying KS got the most out of Baker to this point and also Jacoby. At least give him credit for that. Let's hope he can get better production out of DW than we've already seen. He's probably a better offensive mind than anyone DW had in Houston.

Haha!

" you say " the only real constant in the regression of the last 2 yearz is K. Stefanski. ???
No.

There is a constant that the Browns WR room has gotten worse year over year from 2020- to 2022.
especially if you consider Jarviz Landry may have been hiding an injury for much of early 202I, and the end of 202I also.

In FACT, in some wayz I can hold the opinion that the Browns, and even ANY NFL TEAM, can have their success measured with some accuracy based only only ONLY
on the abilitiez of their WR, and WR's as a group at a given point- area- or timeframe- of time.

AND, ANY_______ Any success the Brownz have had in 40 yearz

...
has coincided with their/them having a better WR group at that time, than at other times.

Back to Kevin Stefanski.

So, what you're saying is last year's (2021) regression was due to the Browns #1 WR crying like a baby while participating in only 6 of 9 games and demanding a trade? That the #2 was playing injured and hiding that fact from his HC who obviously didn't notice his new #1 WR was injured the vast majority of the year with no real #3 or TE? That in your opinion the Browns or any NFL team's success can be measured with some accuracy based only Only on the abilities of their WR, and WR's as a group at any given point - or timeframe - of time?

Interesting - you realize of course that your opinion on the regression of the 2021 Browns team is in direct conflict with the forum's "Football Geru" who has blamed the team's woes in 2021 on the QB don't you? Does that mean in your opinion the Browns current woes from experiencing another regression in 2022 is directly related to the WR group again? Very interesting, thanks for the input.

Excellent point
Never let fact get in the way of a good emotion.

That's so profound, you probably should post it twice..........Again.

Nothing personal JD but I hate these kind of posts. If someone is ignoring or twisting a fact, by all means call them out. But my personal preference is that when doing that, the fact being ignores or twisted is laid out. Otherwise I am left to try and figure out which fact you are are referring to and I am just not well enough versed to to do so easily.

Just skip his posts.

j/c:

Earlier today, I read a post about that had the names of some top qbs in the league. I believe Watson, Herbert, and Burrow were mentioned. I was thinking of the Ranking the NFL QBs thread. My top ten was pretty close to the top 10s that some analysts and places like ESPN, coaches/GMs, etc

These are not in order, but most agree that the list included Mahomes, Allen, Brady, Rodgers, Burrow, Herbert, Watson, Lamar, Stafford, and R. Wilson.

This list has probably changed a bit, but consider this:

What would KC look like w/out Mahomes?
How about Buffalo w/out Allen?
TB w/out Brady?
Rodgers being out in GB?
Cinci w/out Burrow?
Chargers not having Herbert?
We have some evidence of Baltimore not having Lamar? They lost their final 5 games of the year last year after he was injured.
Rams w/out Stafford?
I can't mention Wilson in good faith.

Some of these teams are struggling this year w/those guys. Imagine GB w/out GB, though?

Yet, folks don't even want to consider what Stefanski has done w/out a top 10 qb? Just something to consider because I can almost guarantee you that teams like KC, Buffalo, Cinci, etc would not be all that w/out their star qb.

I get what you are saying, and about half agree because Brissett played at an abnormally high level most of that time. How many polls/articles had him in the top ten QBs? So technically, he had a top QB. But the gist of what you are saying is spot on. KS has had a rough year, but he's not going anywhere yet, IMO. He'll be here next year for sure unless Haslam loses his mind. But then again, that's what I thought about Baker being the QB.

Your point about Jacoby is a good one. I debated internally about mentioning how well he played and that the other teams would not get the same level of performance from their backups. See Case Keenum in Buffalo. Hell, I can't even remember the names of the guys in Cinci and KC.

In the end, I think that we have to admit that the other qbs would not play as well as Jacoby did, but on the other hand, perhaps Stefanski should get some credit for getting JB to play as well as he did?

j/c,

Could Kevin do a better job at times calling plays? Yes ... and he has made some nice calls too, but I don't foresee a need to replace him unless he is going to fall on his sword so to speak for some of his assistant coaches who have been consistently bad at their trade when compared to their peers.

We all have that mindset with players ... if we are consistent then we should hold our coaches to the same standards we do our players imo...

Watson is certainly not a top 10 QB now. He may get back to that level however that remains to be seen. Stefanksi has done great at getting the most out of the QB's he has had to work with. He has a good O scheme. Now if those were all one needed to do in order to be a complete HC in the NFL that would be great.

I'm by no means calling for his head or asking he be fired. But trying to claim the things he does so well are even close to all of the things required of an NFL HC I find to be somewhat misleading coming from someone who actually knows the game of football.

He is 25-22 as our HC and could easily be 30-22 or better by using the run game with Chubb more often ...

So who would you say is responsible of why he is 25-22 instead of 30-22 or better? I'm not sure the post you made is a ringing endorsement.

Stefanski is not good. He's average. I'm not even sure he's a head coach.

I agree, PM. Not just that he could be better for W/L, but he should be better. Should have run more, and used Hunt more as well. As far as my regard for him as HC, I am not sure yet. The biggest question I have is if he is learning from his mistakes. We seem to lose regularly, about half the time. We seem to do it in similar ways repeatedly; one loss feels much like the previous losses did. Seems rather like Sundays are Groundhog Days over and over again. All anecdotal, but I feel it is valid. Has he learned and improved his record? Not sure I have a ringing endorsement.

Here's something I paid attention to in the game. It was obvious that Watson was struggling and uncomfortable. Houston has the worst run defense. Several times on first down Chubb was getting chunk yardage. It was the third or fourth drive before Stefanski called back to back running plays. I mean have some type of pulse on the game and your players. This isn't just a recipe you're following. You're not a robot. Your players aren't robots.

omg.
perfection.


Bard- my bro, my benchmark, my muse...
...I love it when you channel your Inner Yogi Berra.

Ladies & gents of Dawgtalkers: a treasure walks among us.

#1 Bard fan,
Clemdawg.


words matter.
they are tools.
respect the craftsman.

*edit*
Apologies for the thread divergence.
We now return to our regularly-scheduled broadcast...

A head coaching change is needed. Haslam and Berry should go after Detroit Lions offensive coordinator Ben Johnson.

Quite a few things about Stefanski concern me but the one that continues to befuddle me, is this... we go for it a lot on 4th down and I'm ok with that. My problem is that Stefanski doesn't seem to plan ahead. It's like if we have a 3rd down situation where he's likely to go for it on 4th down, he doesn't call plays like he has 2 plays to get it.. he calls the 3rd down play and if that doesn't work, he panics and calls something out of character on 4th down...

Never more evident than our first drive against Cincy.. 3rd and 1 at the 25.... if you are going to go for it, great, you have 2 plays to get 1 yard. First play we have Chubb and Hunt in the backfield together.. cool. So we use Chubb as the decoy to the outside and run the quick handoff right up the middle to Hunt. Right where you would need our 3rd string center to clear out Reader to make a good path to the first down. That doesn't seem smart to me. Don't know, just my opinion I might have tried to avoid that match-up. It didn't work. So what do we do on 4th down and 1? We put Brissett in for Watson and throw a corner fade route 30 yards into the endzone like the game is about to end and we have 1 play to score.. we needed 1 yard and in typical fashion, Nick Chubb never once touched the ball.

One of many glaringly bad habits he has not learned from.

I thought the call for JB to throw to DPJ was an excellent call. He was wide open. Jacoby missed the throw.

SF did something similar right before the half. Instead of kicking a FG, they had the last pick in the entire NFL draft throw a deep TD pass to a WR. Similar play calls in similar situations. Execution means nothing. It's all about play calling. One guy is a genius and the other a dunce.

I am not picking and this is more of a general statement about many, many fans, but I have always been amazed how many fans who have never played or coached think they are so much smarter than NFL coaches when it comes to football.

Edit to add that Chubb is not a good short yardage runner. He's a very good back, but he's a one-cut, wide-zone RB. He is not a short yardage back. His forte is not plowing straight ahead.

````````````````

Not picking but that superiority complex strikes again.

I didnt love the 3rd down call before the 4th down call either

Good coaches coach players so that they CAN execute...trash coaches make excuses and have players who don't execute.

I don't have a big problem with the call. My point of view is more along the lines of DC's. You have two plays to pick up a yard, I would have done things differently. Obviously, during your game-planning, you're putting together a plan for short-yardage situations in the opponent's territory.

3rd and 1... bring in Brissett then and attempt a 30 yard pass. If you're trying to capitalize on the fact the the defense will be caught off-guard and expecting a sneak -- throw the 30 yard pass a play before it will end your possession. Failure? Rush to the line on 4th and 1, hard count, send Brissett on the sneak, where he is very successful. Hindsight? Of course, but it's not something I sat around and pondered. My immediate reaction was "that would have been a real nice call on 3rd and 1.

No big deal either way with me, however, thinking that there won't be scrutiny upon failure is silly.

People criticizing a coach who sends in a backup QB and throws a 30 yard pass on 4th and 1 has nothing to do with them playing or coaching the game.

With all your superior knowledge, explain this to me, as I've never really understood. In third and short, or 4th and short, why oh why do teams pack the o-line in tight? Especially with a back like Chubb? Keep the o-line splits the same - maybe 3/4 to 1 yard between them. Snap the ball, have the o line block how they can. Let the back make the decision/cut - they can find daylight.

I've just never understood packing everyone tight.

this pretty much sums up why i haven't defended stefanski lately. because the play calling made absolutely no sense.

Even within your homerism for all things KS and dissing others with opinions - your own statement highlights the issue. BRISSETT - career back up who had an excellent early campaign for the Browns was the guy throwing the ball. BRISSETT the guy who seemed to struggle to throw with accurracy when throwing deep was throwing the ball. A 30 yard fade route - not an easy throw to make for a starting caliber QB who CAN hit accurate deep passes. Sure - it was a nicely DESIGNED play ... but it was unnecessary. It was a higher risk play than called for. On 3rd and 1 - KS must have known that if he didn't get it, he'd be going for it on 4th and short also. . . . play call accordingly. And the really important point that was made that you completely blanked because there is no excuse - the 3rd down play was extreme weakness of the Browns vs strength of the Bengals ... even for the dummies in the room who never coached in the NFL (which is all of us) that seems like a dubious decision.

Kevin Stefanski needs fired. The sooner this happens the sooner we can work on getting someone else in here. Someone who actually has head coaching EXPERIENCE.

RIP the bandaid. Stefanski isn't it and he'll never be. He's a glorified offensive coordinator, can't communicate, and doesn't inspire men. Nobody plays for him because they don't believe.

We're NEVER going to win the super bowl with Kevin Stefanski.

Jacoby Brissett’s deep passing still searching for consistency with Browns

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...arching-for-consistency-with-browns.html

Just a snippet from a much longer article that articulates the issue...

Jacoby Brissett has attempted as many deep passes as Josh Allen and Justin Herbert, but he’s no Deshaun Watson

Brissett, who turned the ball over three times in Sunday’s 38-15 loss to the Patriots, has completed only 9 of 27 deep balls for 33.3%. What’s more, he’s thrown only one touchdown pass and four interceptions on those attempts, and is 33rd out of 37 QBs with a 44.6 rating in those instances.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...n-herbert-but-hes-no-deshaun-watson.html

There is no logical explanation for putting Brissett in there to throw a 30 yard pass.

...especially cold right off of the bench

j/c

I have to say, when certain defensive players are calling out the coaching.........when you have a kicker making a fuss on the sidelines, right or wrong......................one has to wonder not IF the coaching staff has lost the locker room, but rather, how bad the coaches have lost the locker room.

This. It's only a matter of time. The problem is it will be the middle of next season and another wasted year.

As has been discussed, there are so many issues with that 4th down call. The biggest issue is that Stefanski expects everything to go according to plan just because he schemed it up well. He seemed at a loss that Watson couldn't hit the open guys that he schemed open. However, upon realizing this he never changed and kept calling the same stuff over and over again. In his presser he acts completely befuddled by what happened.

He got shown up by his frigging kicker.

What will be done eventually must be done immediately.

j/c...

What is this kicker tantrum crap. Didn't see it. Did the dude really throw a fit or is this just another mole hill?

He looked pretty ticked on the sideline when they didn't let him attempt a 67yd FG. Kept looking twd the coaches and threw his arms up in disbelief. I thought to myself, "sit your arse down, bawl baby. You're the same kicker that had 3 of 6 attempts blocked".

Your anger is directed at the wrong person. Why draft the kicker if you're not going to use him when the numbers say you should?

From another post:
Just one other thing that I just don't understand. The Browns drafted York in the 4th round in 2022. To put that in perspective, York is only the 3rd kicker since 2011 to be drafted before the 5th round or later. The other two: Aguayo by TBB in the 2nd round in 2016 and only played the one year and Alex Henery by PHI in 2011 in the 4th round who's been out of football since 2015. If you're going to jump out on a limb like that and draft a kicker so much earlier than what normal franchises do, why the heck wouldn't you put your highly drafted kicker out there to kick a 60 plus yard FG with only 3 seconds left in the half? The probability of hitting the Hail Mary Pass was only 9.7%. Consider this: In the last 10 years, kickers are 18-of-66 from 60-plus — 27.2 percent. That percentage rises to 38.1 for games played in stadiums with a roof, either fixed or retractable. It drops to 22.2 percent — 10-of-45 in stadiums that are open-air, like Paycor Stadium. If the Browns are supposed to be a team driven by analytics, why didn't Stefanski attempt the 60 yard plus FG? The percentages say "kick" and you went out on a limb to draft the big leg kicker earlier than normal - WHY DIDN'T THE BROWNS ATTEMPT THE FG? Oh wait, analytics only apply when we want them to apply to the decision-making process.

Being angry at one person doesn't mean you can't be angry at another.


This wan't just a 60+ yard FG, it was a 67 yard FG....which has never been done in the history of the NFL. Analytics wouldn't tell you to kick a 67yd field goal, because there is no data indicating that it could be successful. Especially when you consider the low trajectory required to boot one that distance and York's propensity to have his kicks blocked.

Not a big deal, but I think it would have been a 68 yard attempt. Either way, I was talking at the screen for the brat to sit the F down when he was showing frustration to the Special Teams coach. No way did I want us to attempt that long of a kick especially with his/our history of having kicks blocked this year. Can you imagine the uproar had we decided to kick that long FG, had it blocked and returned for a TD? Stefanski would be declared the biggest idiot of all time because he wasn't aware of us having longer kicks blocked. More manufactured nonsense.

According to my buddy who was at the game well before kickoff...York was hitting 65 yarders with ease in warmups. No wonder he was adamant about being given the chance to put points on the board.

He showed some heart, fire and competitiveness wanting to try that FG...and Ski's Fan Boy wants to chastise him for that...if only guys like Ward & Wills had that kind of attitude...not to mention Ski himself.

Gee, another insult.

I'm not understanding all the handwringing of not letting a very average kicker kick what would be an NFL record. But on the same token, it probably had as much chance as going through as a hail mary from that distance..so why not.

I think the Hail Mary was a better call because we've had multiple kicks blocked this year. Kicking a 68 yard FG would lead to the ball leaving his foot on a lower trajectory which would enhance the chance of it being blocked. Again, imagine the outrage from all the Baker Mayfield fans had the kicked been blocked and returned for a TD?

Kicking a 65 yarder in warmups with no defense or block rush is not quite the same as a real game situation, now is it.


Should have tried a fake field goal with a Hail Mary - the best of both worlds.

I don't disagree...but using that logic, why is he bothering to see what is the limit of his distance that day and in that stadium?

You can dish it out, but you can't take it.

I pointed out the actual statistics of both on the previous page. The odds of a Hail Mary being successful was I think 9.7% while a FG attempt of 65 yards or more was only 5.1% successful. Actually a Hail Mary has better odds of succeeding.

So let me see if I have this correct. According to you The Fabulous Baker Boys isn't an insult but Ski's Fan Boy is an insult? Only in the land of Vers.

j/c:

An aside: The Cabots need not get over zealous with their tree selection and need to find one that doesn't belly up to the ceiling.

Arch, maybe i'm getting the wrong message, but it feels like the players right now are frustrated with the coaches because they aren't letting these guys go and PLAY football, if you know what i mean. it's competitive, guys wanna be great and get glory, like our kicker wanting the staff to give him a crack at it. that fire and passion seems to be suppressed by this coaching staff. it's like the analytical aspect of coaching has taken over the entire culture in the locker room and players are starting to really get tired of it.

Well, I think you ARE getting it.

I was thinking more if the kick was short, have Chase back deep to return the kick. The line can't release, and then you have bunch of DT's and Olinemen lubbering around trying to play defense.

R.I.P. 2022, 2023, 2024, 2025......Infinity of seasons to come...

11-6...8-9...5-12

Who's Ryan Burns? Are you Ryan Burns?

That's a good point.

Hail Mary is the only call imo. Unprecedented kick from a low trajectory -- two things can happen -- one is very, very unlikely and nets you 3pts; the other could be disastrous. A block is likely recovered at about the 35 with a player on the run towards the endzone. Hail Mary -- two things can happen -- one is more likely than the FG and nets you 6pts; the other results in an incompletion, 70 yards from where the first scenario takes place. Players are even coached to "bat it down". No brainer in my book going into a half. I may try it to win a game if the score is tied, that's about it.

As far as the York being "mad". Didn't look like a hissy-fit to me, looked more like "awe man, c'mon, give me a shot!"

And here I thought the long kicks he's known for were the number one reason we drafted him.

Justin Tucker, maybe. Cade York - ummmm no.

We aren’t going to fire KS. We may replace the DC and if we do, we better bring in a guy who is an obvious upgrade over JW. It’s not necessarily his fault, because the FO did not adequately address the DL issues we knew were percolating last off-season, but some guys take the fall. That’s the way she goes.

I wish we could get a Gregg Williams type d coordinator.

Stefanski will get one more ‘prove-it’ year.

As I said, KS deserves a season with DW. It's a matter of conjecture if he's a good HC or not but he is a good OC and I'm sure he can't wait to work further with DW and devise more plays that are suited to him. Deshaun doesn't have the limitations that Baker and Jacoby have. On D JW should be replaced and with a coach that's tough and can run the D with autonomy that way KS can concentrate on his responsibilities on O AND as a HC.

Those who want to fire Stephanski, I don't get it. His offense is in the top ten of the league. I do admit, I don't like that he goes for it constantly on fourth down instead of taking points, but, his offense is pretty good.

And his O should be even better with Deshaun as long as we get the O-line straightened out.

Hmmmm, last I checked, the HC has responsibilities for the offense, defense and special teams. If the Browns (or Stefanski) bring in a defensive coach that's tough and can run the defense with autonomy so Stefanski can run the offense with autonomy, then I say give the OC job to Stefanski and hire a true HC that can actually run the team. The Browns have to be the only team in the entire NFL that's getting support from the fans for the HC because they believe he's a good OC while the rest of the team is going down the crapper. Of course, the claims of Stefanski being a great offensive mind might be all smoke and mirrors.

Kevin Stefanski agreed to certain specific terms that limit his authority
Posted by Mike Florio on January 13, 2020

Head football coaches like to run the show. In Cleveland, the head football coach won’t be.

As explained by Steve Doerschuk of the Canton Repository, new Browns coach Kevin Stefanski showed during his interview a willingness to yield to certain expectations of part-time chief strategy office Paul DePodesta, including having someone from the analytics group wearing a headset and having access to the coaching staff on game days. Stefanski also agreed to owner Jimmy Haslam’s desire to engage in hours-long meetings with his head coach the day after games.

Dustin Fox of 92.3 The Fan in Cleveland added that the front office expects the head coach to “turn in game plans to the owner and analytics department by Friday, and to attend an end-of-week analytics meeting to discuss their plan.”


So, is Stefanski really running the team or even the offense? The above would point to most likely not.

j/c:


Andy Reid, Sean McVay, LeFleur, Kyle Shanahan, Zac Taylor, Arthur Smith, Mike McCarthy, Brian Daboll,Nick Sirianni, Kevin O’Connell, Kliff Kingsbury, Josh McDaniels, etc. How many of these guys run their defenses? I'll give you a hint. ZERO!

Everyone understands that the HC is ultimately responsible for the coaches under him. However, these guys don't take over the defense. They don't draw up plays. They don't come up w/schemes for the defense. They don't coach defensive techniques. What they can do is fire the guy if he isn't producing. Other times, that decision lays w/the GM. There was no reason to fire Woods at the end of last year. They were a top 5 defense. Most thought the D would carry the O this season while Watson was out. It might be wise to see what happens w/Woods at the end of the season before blaming the defensive woes on Stefanski. Then again, being wise is not a given w/some "fans."

Here is an article about the Role of Defensive Coordinators for your reading pleasure.

The Role of a Defensive Coordinator in Football (Responsibilities, Salary)
ByCoach Martin|Coaching


A lot of attention in football gets put on a team's head coach, and the final credit and / or blame for how a team performs falls into their lap.

There's good reason for that, too, as the head coach is ultimately responsible for everything that happens with the team.

In essence, the head coach is the CEO of a football team.

But like any good CEO at a company, they need a solid supporting staff to help make things run smoothly.

This "executive team" consists of three main coaches:

Offensive coordinator
Special teams coordinator
Defensive coordinator
Each of these coaches is responsible for one of the main units on a football team -- the offense, the defense, and the special teams.

These coaches hold full responsibility over their unit, the plays they run and the players on the field.

They are executives on the team -- to use the business analogy -- and essentially serve as the head coach for their particular until.

They report directly to the head football coach, but also have other coaches underneath them who report directly to them.

Let's take a closer look at the role of a defensive coordinator, including their responsibilities and salary.



Defensive Coordinator Responsibilities
The defensive coordinator's main responsibility is to run the defensive unit effectively.

Their duties include:

Designing plays for the defense
Making decisions on positions and roles
Game preparation
Opponent scouting
Teaching, training and execution
The defensive coordinator can't manage to do all of these alone -- especially throughout an entire football season.

Which is why they, too, have many other coaches who work directly underneath them as supporting staff.

Let's take a look at the most important responsibilities:

a. Game Preparation
Different teams may certainly have a slightly different approaches when it comes to defensive coaching staff.

However, the typical staff will have separate coaches in charge of the defensive line, the linebackers, and the secondary.

Some teams will even have a separate coach for the cornerbacks and a separate coach for the safeties, too.

Each week, the defensive coordinator works with all of the assistants to cover the game plan for the upcoming game.

This includes not only going over the general plays, but the specific ones that might work well against the upcoming opponent.

During the practice week leading up to the game, defensive coordinators will work hand-in-hand with their position coaches to come up with a specific schemes to run on game day.

This could be out of a base 3-4 alignment or 4-3 alignment, based on the team's personnel and the offense that is likely to be used by their opponent.

Then, all the coaches will implement this scheme with the players on the practice field.

They can do this by setting up dummies or getting a scout team to act as the opposing team's offense.

This will help the players understand the alignment and better prepare them for what they will likely face in the upcoming game.

football-defensive-coordinator
b. Studying Film
A lot of work during the week will also happen in the film room.

The defensive coordinator will run tapes of the opponent's games to show the defensive unit exactly what they're dealing with.

They'll show important details about how the opposing team runs their offense, their tendencies, and what to look out for.

Position coaches will step in when necessary to add emphasis or to explain in more detail specific situations.

c. Calling Defensive Plays
On game day, a defensive coordinator's job might include calling the defensive plays.

Some head coaches handle this duty, though, so it really depends on each individual team.

Some defensive coordinators will be on the sideline for games, while others prefer to get a birds-eye view of the action from the booth in the stadium.

Again, this is really a personal preference between the defensive coordinator and the head coach.

Regardless of whether they call the plays or not, they will be responsible for tracking the performance of the team on each play.

Defensive coordinators must then make adjustments to the defensive plan as the game progresses.

football-defensive-coordinator
Defensive Coordinator Salary
The three coordinators will often make the most money among the coaching staff, aside from the head coach.

Some defensive coordinators may make more than the other two coordinators. Some may make less, and some teams will pay all their coordinators the same.

In the National Football League, defensive coordinators earn roughly $600,000 to $800,000 per year.

Currently, the highest-paid defensive coordinator in the league is Todd Bowles, who makes $3 million per year with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.

The salary range in college is much larger than in the NFL.

Big football programs spend more on their defensive coordinators, while smaller Division I schools could pay their defensive coordinators around $700,00 per year.


Before he was recently named the head coach at Oklahoma, Brent Venables was the highest-paid defensive coordinator in college football -- earning $2.5 million with Clemson University.

Conclusion
The defensive coordinator is one of the most important coaches on a football team, and as such, he's often paid very well for his job.

They are essentially the "head coach of the defense," responsible for all players, staff, and schemes on that side of the football.

https://footballadvantage.com/defensive-coordinator/

Bingooooo.....

Originally Posted by Versatile Dog

A lot of attention in football gets put on a team's head coach, and the final credit and / or blame for how a team performs falls into their lap.

There's good reason for that, too, as the head coach is ultimately responsible for everything that happens with the team.

In essence, the head coach is the CEO of a football team.

But like any good CEO at a company, they need a solid supporting staff to help make things run smoothly.

This "executive team" consists of three main coaches:

Offensive coordinator
Special teams coordinator
Defensive coordinator

Vers, thanks so much buddy for collaborating to prove my point. You went out there and just proved what everyone has been trying to say with just this portion of your post. The Head Coach is ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING that happens with the team. He is indeed the CEO and he is RESONSIBLE to have a solid SUPPORTING STAFF to help make things run smoothly. Though you may have a member of your executive team (not unlike any business enterprise) performing poorly, the CEO (H/C) is the person ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING that happens to that team or company.

The other information that you posted about what a DC, OC, and ST coach is responsible for does not trump in any way what is the main responsibility of the H/C (CEO). As with any company, football is no different in the responsibilities of the hierarchy. Your executive team may be performing poorly or have weak links but the final credit and/or blame for how that team performs falls directly into the CEO's lap or in this case the HC. It's that way in every business and it's that way with every other franchise in the NFL. As you clearly stated and I 100% agree - the HC (CEO to say) is ultimately responsible for EVERYTHING that happens with the team. Stefanski cannot hide behind the fact that he's playing OC and the defense is not his responsibility because it is - THANK YOU FOR CONFIRMING THIS MISUNDERSTANDING!

I agree... Kevin isn't going anywhere and shouldn't... we need a new DC though....

I was Kevin here for a long time! but I want to see some progress in this team...

Williams sucked at NY. He is finished.