DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Kevin Stefanski

A lot of the threads seem to have comments and discussion about how good a HC KS is - I figured it was worth putting them all in one place. Feel free to cut and paste any other posts to this thread rather than repeat comments.

For me KS has been good for Cleveland. Whether he is a good / great HC remains to be seen in my eyes. He has certainly had a tremendous and positive impact on the offense - and on that side of the ball he gets a lot of positives. However - Head Coach is much, much more than being a good OC. I mean you can simply point to the record and say you are what your record says you are - but I think it's much deeper than that.

Offense:

+ I think nearly everyone would agree that KS has the ability to script brilliant offensive plays to start games. The team comes out firing on all cylinders in the majority of games.
+ Both with Baker and Brissett - I think it's fair to say KS got the most out of them. Forget the debates on Baker himself and how limited he was/is - 2020 KS managed to get Baker to play/execute at an elite level for the final 9 games of the season. This season I think he has Brissett playing above what most expected. A++
+ During covid - KS distinguished himself by being methodical, organized and able to overcome the challenges Covid brought. I think we probably all agree that it's nice to have an intelligent guy who presents well in pressers etc ... sure he is very vanilla in those pressers but I have zero problem with that.
- I like his scheme - I think it will work very well with an Uber talent at QB like Watson should be. Even with JB our offensive ranking this year is top 10 which is insanely good with a career back up.

- Whether it was it was available talent - he has repeatedly made games close by getting ultra conservative, or we've lost games because we played not to lose. Maybe he has learned from that. I'd certainly argue that the argument that we had a limited QB forced KS to play conservative when we had a big lead is very faulty: 1. How did we get the 'big' lead if our team and QB were so restricted. 2. PA passes and roll outs were some of BM's most effective tools. Either way - I think many will have seen this and agree this is a negative.
- Similarly there has been a history of a lack of adjustment. Teams seem to have regularly made half time adjustments - and between conservativism and lack of adjustment, we don't seem to play the rest of the game to the same elevation as the initial scripted plays. It would be interesting to see where most points are scored over his tenure. I'd bet in most game we score more in the first half for sure.
- 4th down - we seem to be all in on analytics with less attention to the success rate of the team. Calling a high number of 4th downs in some years while having a lower rate success than the rest of the NFL. We also seem to get too cute with pass/run options on occasion. This isn't all the time - we do have success with 4th downs sometimes, but I'd personally like to see more regard to game momentum and situation.... opening drive and a chance to put 3 points on the board or go for a 4th and 3 ... take the 3, take the lead.
- I don't think Chubb is under used ... I would like to see Chubb get 20-23 carries a game, stay fresh for the whole season. Part of that is because Hunt is a beast and can carry the rock without a ton of drop off from NC. However - we've seen too many games at vital moments and our best player is on the sidelines instead of in the game. That to me is an issue. And this year - Hunt who thrives on bunches of carries was being utilized in a way to prevent him getting any sort of rhythm. Maybe the trade request had an impact? But it needs to change. One of the Monday night games both Manning's were blasting KS for this AND for not giving a hurt QB the best chance to succeed.
- Has shown an overwhelming tendency in many games to get pass happy. Less so this year - so maybe another area that's been addressed. But many have commented that when Van Pelt was forced into action as a play caller he did a really good job.
- Many of us have noted in game management issues from time to time. Not often but enough for it to be something to watch for and need improvement.

Defense and Special Teams:

As the HC you are responsible for performance and decisions across all phases of the game. Defense has been an issue this year. It was an issue early in the season last year ... it's no good pointing to statistics that indicate we have a solid D - when we watch the games and lose games because of a lack of communication or ill discipline or Woods going ultra conservative. In addition to our own observations - possibly the most damning commentary on Woods / Stefanski's defense is Kurt Warner (pretty sure it was him and not Peyton) talking about how for the last 2 years the Browns D was so transparent and easy to read/predictable. . . . maybe the counter to this will be the attempt this year to have multiple defenses called pre-snap so adjustments can be made to shifts and player movement .... but that failed so miserably that there is no credit to be given. Talent (DT's and LBs) is a factor. But there must be input form the coaches on the players kept, sought after in FA etc .... if our DT's are all too light to play Woods scheme - how did that happen? It was not accidental, options were available ... I think it's a cop out and an argument of convenience to say the scheme fails because of lack of talent. Add to that - coaching UP talent is also a factor.... it's highly improbable that we just happen to have some of the very worst DT's graded by PFF .... and much more likely that coaching and scheme is playing a factor in what we ask them to do.

On special teams - we've got a similar issue on coaching and talent. Hopefully we have solved the kicking problem that has been around forever.

Leadership

None of us are in the locker room - so any opinion on KS's leadership and motivation is speculation. That said I think most see KS as cerebral and an X's and O's guy - not someone who is firing the team up. We've seen way too many important games where we came out flat... last year despite our our QB issues, we had a chance to make the play offs and we lost 4 of the last 6 and in some games just didn't look up for it. I don't want a 'Rah Rah' guy - but I think part of being a great HC is being able to motivate. Hell Baker and his loud mouth and brashness seems to have provided more motivation in week 1 this year than our HC did ... and we damn nearly lost the game to one of the worst coached teams in the NFL. Personally I feel like the attention and time KS spends as play caller and on offense in general is one of the things limiting him and restricting him as a great HC. Maybe he will get there and keep improving? But again, it's something that very much needs watching.

I don't want to replace KS - but I do think there are some red flags that need paying attention to and areas we need to expect improvement. We have a talented team - very good to elite OL and Running - Cooper is a a very talented WR and genuine #1. DPJ is proving to be an adequate #2. Njoku has come into his own this year before. There are some elevated expectations.

This.

I can see that - but it's also reasonable to say KS has performed well with inferior talent at QB ... I think some are concerned that KS will utilize Watson the same as he has other QB's - but even if that is true the elevated play *should* result in many more wins. jmo

Philly are undefeated which is pretty impressive ... Bills, despite the loss today, are darn close to a super team. KC is a good team and definitely have a great coach.

While some of his situational play calls may drive me bonkers, I do like Stefanski's gameplans and play calling in general. I think he has given us the most consistent offense we have seen in decades and that is what you need to win in today's NFL.

I am not a Joe Woods fan and maybe there can be some changes on the defensive side, but that remains to be seen as they have put together 2 good games in a row. I'm really trying my hardest to be patient with everything.

Usually I am one that is quick to say let's fire the coach, but I just like what I have seen in Stefanski, sure he has made a lot of mistakes and there will be more. I like the system he has in place and I think he deserves more time. I hope he is able to finish the season strong and is back. The last thing I want to do is fire him, and have to go through another change in scheme and system. To me it feels like we are close, too close to fire another coach and start over.

How many wins to keep his job? 7? more than 7?

I don't want KS gone or anything, however, I don't think he's been a great coach overall. He was the first year for sure, but since then he has been hot and cold. And in comparison to your average rookie HC over his first few years, KS has proven above average, not exceptional.

Something worth keeping in mind - we've had such an incredibly low bar for competence at the HC position before KS arrived, it would easy to think we have the answer just because he is so much better than what we had before. Maybe that's a bit like our QB play - the bar was set so low we (many) were happy to see Baker and prematurely thought he was the answer .... ?

Lolz.

So he regressed as a HC since his first season? Let's look at what he's done at the QB position. It's obvious for anyone who doubted it that he made the most out of Baker. People can place the blame for last year on Baker or Stefanski but for anyone trying to be subjective Baker was injured last year. So you can only objectively look at his last healthy season as an accurate gauge. 11-5 and a playoff appearance.

As of this moment he's running a very productive O with a QB who is a perennial back up that has never produced like this his entire career. Now people can say what they want about the defense. But damned near every HC in the NFL comes from either a strong O or strong D background. One of those two is what they specialize in. Of course as time goes on they become more adept on the other side of the ball. But Stefanski isn't a seasoned HC like an Andy Reid is. That comes with time and experience.

That's why teams like the steelers are successful organizations. They allow their coaches time to season and mature. That's why we all know names like Chuck Noll, Bill Cowher and Mike Tomlin. What we see now is a HC who has the potential to some day be mentioned in the same breath as those three others. But when watching the opinions of some, if those opinions are followed we may never know. Some people didn't learn their lesson with Bill Belichick. A lot of people wanted him ran out of town too. Not saying that's what you happen to be advocating.

Knowing that Stefanski would be starting a career journeyman backup QB the first 11 games, some people were realistic with what that means. As for myself I predicted 7 wins this season. Many set crazy predictions and expectations like 10 or 11 games. For those people they are disappointed and they're looking for someone to blame for that. The only ones they should be blaming is themselves.

Stefanski is currently an average to below average head coach. The results are consistent with that. He gets the same benefit of the doubt Baker got by many because he just happens to be the best of a long line of schmucks.

Not much else to discuss. It is what it is. If they keep him around, you hope he gets it figured out. If they don't, you hope they get someone in here who prioritizes winning. Until Kevin or the next guy prioritize winning, not much will change.

This isn't rocket science.

My question would be is: Name a coach who doesn't prioritize winning?

Yeah, I was agreeing w/you.

Stefanski has had ups & downs. My biggest complaint is him going for it on 4th down rather than taking points while in FG range. It seems that these early gaffs cost us significantly late in the game. as in we should be tied or we are down 4 instead of 1 in the final minutes. The losses from these situations have piled up and created a window for honest critique. 3 years in and he still does not act like he comprehends how important points are in the NFL.

KS has been the best HC since the return and the fact that he and Berry work well together is a plus. But more games are lost in the NFL than are won. No team exemplifies this more than the Cleveland Browns. And the fact that in his 3rd year his teams are still inventing ways to lose instead of finding ways to win is frustrating to say the least.

I do not want another coaching change but KS needs to start making adjustments to ensure this team is significantly better than a .500 team. The talent is there as is the parity of the league. The Browns should be 5-3 at this moment with JB. But they are 3-5 with significant 3 game stretch on the horizon. I would imagine if things go wrong tough decisions could be made before the season concludes.

Browns remind me of the Vikings last year, look at them now.

12 wins to 3 wins they both should be fired.
The trade value for deshaun is so low we can not trade him
Even up for rodgers.

turnovers and penalties are how you lose games. On top of not taking points when the opportunity is there.

The Browns can make a case that they should be 5-3. They can also make the case that they could be 6-2 possibly 7-1.

I understand the DW argument, but JB has played pretty good, and better coaching should have the Browns with more wins than 3.

I think many are confused when posters say KS has to be better. This does not mean he should be fired, but it does bring some heat to his seat. you know the saying "tough and accountable."

This is by far the best talent the Browns have had since the return. The QB is a huge deal but the coach should not get a pass when he has been responsible with how a lot of this plays out. I hope DW brings a skill set and swag that gives us that boost. but if DW is that good a Super Bowl better be in the future. And our coach better not be the one in the way.

11-5. 8-9..... there is a trend here. hopefully the orange and brown can bounce back, but in order for that to happen, everybody including KS has to be better than the first 7 games. The Steelers are bad. we have played one complete game out of 8. That is not a good look for a coach many believe is doing a good job. in fact if you think KS is doing great at 3-5 your brown and orange glasses have you in a fantasy world.

Once again this does not mean I want him fired. I expect better. PERIOD. I believe he can be better, and I hope it started last Monday. But right now at 3-5 he has a bit to prove. Wins are what matter. And he is not getting enough of them.

I really disagree w/you about kicking FGs instead of going for TDs. Analytics support going for it in the situations where we are indeed going for it. We have a 62.5% success rate on 4th down. Addi in that not all kicks are made. If kicking FGs, people would complain that we are playing not to lose and that you need TDs to win in this league. Everyone makes the correct call AFTER the play.

I think early in the game you take the points, put's you on the board, give you a little positive momentum.

That's exceedingly misleading and incorrect.

I've talked and mentioned this every time - you try to manipulate the conversation on 4th downs to say Stefanski is making the right call every time.

1. It depends on the distance. 4th and 1 is vastly different than 4th and 3 .... and we have gone for it on 4th and 3 too many times.
2. You quoted THIS YEARS stats only. . . If we are judging Stefanski, we need ALL his stats. You only have to go back to 2021 and see that we went for it just as much but our success rate was only 41.3% and then in 2020 we were only successful 40.7% of the time. That's not good head coaching.

https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/fourth-down-conversion-pct?date=2022-02-14
https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/fourth-down-conversion-pct?date=2021-02-08

I think the opposite. I think you should use analytics to help you w/those decisions. I many times have we heard the phrase "settling for three? FGs are good late in games to win the game. At the end of a half. And in situations where your odds of converting the 4th down are slim.

You can isolate stats to a given time period to support your argument if one is trying to manipulate the stats to skew them in favorable light to support their argument. That's precisely what you have pointed out here. Thanks for giving accuracy to the actual situation.

Not sure what you call a franchise qb lets quote a few of DeShaun stats
Against luck zero scores until the 4th quarter in the playoffs.
mayfield lost
Mahomes lost
lamar zero wins 2 losses against Baltimore that hardly sounds elite to me.

j/c

We get told on here all the time about 'grades'. Individual lineman grades, qb 'grades'............and we're doing great on 'grades'. We get told how great Stefanski is as a head coach.

Yet, we're 3-5. I "grade" a team by wins and losses, cause at the end of the season, you can stick "grades" where the sun doesn't shine.

It's nice to have players "grading" good. Wins matter.

I think that's pretty fair. I think looking a little deeper is worthwhile... And soon the excuses of how good the QB is or isn't will be removed. I'm actually feeling positive and expecting a play of run. JB is playing well... Watson is going to be much much better based on everything a certain poster has told us.

Well, you are not the only one a little concerned about this. I think he is elite, or at least has all the elite skills. But I worry about him being out of football for two years AND based on stats alone (for those of us who never paid attention to him in Texas) he looks like he's good, not elite. But hey, we aren't football gurus like some posters or the FO, so who the hell knows what we have? I'll trust Vers' word on it until he sucks, then all hell is breaking loose. I hope we never have to go there, but if we aren't contenders so much as a single year he is under center, I will bad mouth him, trash talk posters who wanted him, and generally be a miserable old grump until he's gone. I NEVER WANTED HIM, not even for a second.

j/c:

I knew this thread was going to turn into yet another agenda thread the minute I saw it w/the usual personality crap thrown in. I'm out.

Stats may say to go for it on 4th, but the HC should also look at the situation.
Stats only tell half the story.

Sometimes you have to see what is happening on the field, and include that into the statistical calculation. Against high scoring teams, sure you my need to go for it more, against low scoring teams with good defenses, maybe you take the 3.

I would say a 3-5 coach who had 4th qtr leads in most of the 5 losses deserves criticism.
I do not think I said he was a bad coach, but I did say he had to be better.

Ways that he could have improved but has not.
A)Not taking points early in the game when the opportunity is there. Analytics say one thing but results say another. Sometimes gut feelings and experience is better than statistics.
B) Not having #24 on the field at some of the most critical times in the game.

We all have seen these play out. It has been an issue. I do not accept everything is improved because of 1 complete game out of 8.
Lets put a couple games in a row like the last and I guarantee adjustments were made.

Look at Woods D last 2 games. Different formations, multiple fronts. If adjustments are made, I believe we have the staff and players too make noise. But, JB has played better than could have been imagined. The Browns should be better than 3-5. Some of these losses are due to our staff making the same mistakes. After 2.5 seasons these issues should have been addressed and improved upon.

I think everyone can see most are talking football. Most are focusing on KS and what he does well and doesn't. Only you came in here with a slightly false narrative trying to (again) make out like KS makes the right call on 4th downs all the time when anyone that watches the games over the last 3 years knows that's just 100% wrong.