OK....It's Done. That's it. Nothing we can do about it. We already have a thread that is woe is me and a place to vent. So lets keep that kind of stuff in there. This thread is about moving forward. Not about DW or his contract. It has already been said by Berry that they will add a 3rd QB to the roster. That doesn't mean they are looking for a starter...But I think they would be looking for the best QB available that can pick up the system.

So who is out there? Can't trade. So anyone we can get is either on the street, or has to get through waiver wires (If they can even get released!!!). Outside the Box Thinking is very welcome.

D.T.R.

Al Bundy once threw 4 TDs in a game…
Uncle Rico might still have some arm left?

I think PJ was a good 1-2 game stopgap, but his turnovers are just a recipe for disaster. He can't be the long range option.

DTR could improve with practice and experience, and he has a higher ceiling. Of course, he could also be a disaster.

The FA market is VERY bleak

I like the idea of playing him...If they think he can. the last thing we want is for him to go out there and get destroyed. We see a lot of potential there in DTR. So we have to be careful about that...

But as I mentioned...they are going to add someone... and this is what I see a s currently available...

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/free-agents/2023/all/quarterback/available/

We need a game manager that is familiar with the system who only needs to get up to speed on terminology. Unfortunately, that is a very small list.

Literally, signing Trevor Simian off of the JETS' practice squad might be our best move.

LMAO!!!! Not quite what I was thinking concerning outside the box....But Love this one....

What about that one dude that played for us for a week against the Raiders a year or two ago? We almost won that game. I can't remember the guy's name, but he played a few games for the 9ers.

What about Chase Daniel??? (not replying to you doglover....)

Nick Mullens? He's on an active roster

someone suggested Joe Flacco, who actually looked "OK" last year when I watched him

I like Colt McCoy for sentimentality.

I like Nick Foles because of the "been there done that" factor.

ooooohhhhh were half-way there ... oooohhh oohh.......

Darn. Yeah, he was the one I was thinking of.

Tom Brady?

The QB cupboard is bare and the odds of outside help looks bleak. At this point, rolling with DTR is our best bet unless Berry can work some kind of miracle. No trades, not many upgrades on the street, with only PJ and DTR on the roster… Bleak af.

Honestly, I wouldn't mind a Flacco/Ryan type to help give that QB room some a veteran voice...Especially if we are going to go with DTR...having that vet they can go to ...could be huge...

Maybe Johnney Manziel would like another shot??? We liked him so much we drafted him once and doubled down and drafted his clone Baker.

Matt Ryan might actually be really darn good in this offense.... but, being able to entice Brady with the prospect of getting a ring from a 3rd team is interesting, too

Brees. The chemistry might be good. Outside the box is rough for this situation. The NE Patsies might be in a trade partner mood. Ask Annie Agar. I find her takes hilarious and I need to laugh. FWIW

Isn’t Brady still technically under contract if he UN-retires again?

Click the link at the bottom to see the associated videos


With Deshaun Watson out for the season, here are 7 players the Browns could look at as their third QB
Published: Nov. 15, 2023, 11:41 a.m.
By Tim Bielik, cleveland.com

CLEVELAND, Ohio — Deshaun Watson’s 2023 season is over after he suffered a broken bone in his shoulder that will require immediate surgery. That means for this week vs. the Steelers, they will have to turn to either P.J. Walker or Dorian Thompson-Robinson at quarterback.

The NFL trade deadline has passed, so any hopes of bringing in an outside quarterback will have to come from the free-agent market.

The market is pretty barren, but there are some intriguing names if the Browns want to add another guy into the quarterback room.

Here are some free agents or practice-squad options the Browns could look at if they want to go that route. Also, let us know which option sounds the best to you in the poll below.

Browns rookie Dorian Thompson-Robinson to replace Deshaun Watson beginning Sunday vs. Steelers and said he’ll be ‘night and day’ different

With Deshaun Watson out for the season, here are 7 players the Browns could look at as their third QB

==============
Joe Flacco, free agent

A former Super Bowl winner, the 38-year-old Flacco has been on the street for the entire season after spending his last three seasons in New York as a member of the Jets. He was 1-8 in three seasons in New York, completing 57.5% of his passes for 2,253 yards, 14 touchdowns and six interceptions in 12 games.

Flacco’s last win as a starter came in Week 2 of 2022 vs. the Browns when he completed 26 of 44 passes for 307 yards and four touchdowns in a 31-30 win for the Jets.

==============
Nick Foles, free agent

Like Flacco, Foles is a former Super Bowl champion. He was also a Super Bowl MVP after leading a magical playoff run for the Eagles in the 2017 season.

However, he could not recapture that magic with stints in Jacksonville, Chicago and Indianapolis.

In his last four seasons, he started in 14 games and was 3-11 as a starter, completing 64.8% of his passes for 3,062 yards, 14 TDs and 14 INTs.

=========================
A.J. McCarron, Bengals practice squad

Remember when the Browns nearly acquired McCarron at the trade deadline in 2017? McCarron could be available if the Browns wanted to do what didn’t happen six years ago.

He has played in 17 NFL games, starting four. McCarron has completed 62.6% of his passes for 1,173 yards, six TDs and four INTs.

McCarron played in the XFL in the spring for the St. Louis Battlehawks and played very well, completing 68.8% of his passes for 2,150 yards, 24 TDs and six INTs.

================
Colt McCoy, free agent

A former Browns draft pick in 2010, McCoy already has experience playing in Cleveland and has been around the block. He’s played for five different teams in 12 NFL seasons, most recently playing two seasons in Arizona with the Cardinals.

He has 36 career starts with a record of 11-25. In his career, McCoy has completed 62.6% of his passes for 7,975 yards, 34 TDs and 32 INTs.

==========================
Nathan Rourke, Jaguars practice squad

This may be the first name on this list where you’re wondering who this guy is. But fans of the Ohio Bobcats and the Canadian Football League are aware of who Rourke is.

The 25-year-old Rourke threw for 7,470 yards and 60 TDs in three seasons at Ohio. He went to Canada and became an instant star for the B.C. Lions in 2022, leading them to the Western Final by completing 78.7% of his passes for 3,349 yards, 25 TDs and 10 INTs. That was in his first and only season as a starter before joining the Jaguars.

========================
Trevor Siemian, Jets practice squad

A former seventh-round pick from Northwestern, Siemian has forged a career that is far longer than your typical late seventh-round pick. He has 30 career starts, most of which came in Denver after the retirement of Peyton Manning following the 2015 season.

Siemian is 13-17 as a starter and has completed 58.9% of his passes for 7,027 yards, 42 TDs and 28 INTs. However, he has only started eight games after being traded from the Broncos after the 2017 season.

======================
And yes: Tom Brady, free agent

This feels like the most improbable scenario because he’s been retired all season and he’s 46 years old. But fans are talking about it, so it’s worth at least mentioning.

Brady is only three years removed from winning a mind-boggling seventh Super Bowl. But in 2022, he showed signs that Father Time was catching up to him as he completed 66.8% of his passes for 4,694 yards, but only 25 TDs and nine interceptions.

This feels like the biggest pipe dream of all pipe dreams and almost certainly won’t happen.



https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...wns-could-look-at-as-their-third-qb.html

I wonder about Tannehill. Yes, he's under contract and not very good. BUT...if he has offset language in his contract...I think the Titans could cut him and his new team would pick up the rest of his contract. Maybe some cap shenanigans for them.

Disclaimer: I don't know for sure if that works when a vet gets cut vs traded.

I do think having a vet is going to be important. A Flacco or Ryan type would go a long way IMO

Alright, that almost made me spit my coffee.

If that happens, I will jump in the lake... and drown myself... hoping that's the way out of this cruel dream.

Gronk suggested Mac Jones should ask for his release and sign with the Browns.

He thought he has gotten this shaft

Gronkowski thinks that Mac Jones should ask for his release and sign here.

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...or-his-release-and-sign-with-the-browns/

I think the question we should be asking, can any of these FA QBs play in our system? None of them really seem like the mobile QBs that we have, especially Flacco and Ryan. Would it be wise of us to overhaul our playbook right smack in the middle of the season?

I would not like this move. In addition to not being good, I don't think he would be a fit culture-wise.

beyond that, is how many of them would even be able to get up to speed on our system within a reasonable period of time? More likely than not, none of them would simply because there are only like 8 weeks left in the season. Anyone we'd target would need to have experience with the system, and most of the guys out there that have experience either with us or with Minny within the last 7 years are already on rosters.

do we have an activist opening?
Does he even play QB?

Talk about rust
He hasn't played in what 4/5 years

I'd rather we dial up Charlie Frye - or RGIII.

well if we're just throwing names out there, what about Cam Newton???

Like I said in another thread I don't think they will sign a significant veteran like Ryan or foles. If they play well that could cause a qb controversy and I think they would rather just miss the playoffs with a rookie qb then do anything that would create doubt about thier 230 million dollar qb

I don’t think they’re worried about a future QB controversy as it might relate to next year, so lay that speculation to bed, slick. That’s not the problem today , or next Tuesday. I think we need to get Foles or another vet, but a quarterback controversy isn’t tops on their list of worries.

I disagree but have no proof as I cannot read thier minds obviously. However if they stick with a rookie 5th round pick while 6-3, to me that is very strange ans suspicious

Wasn’t RG3 straight-up lobbying for the Jets job after Rogers went down? He’s at least equally bad but at least mobile and he’s been here before.

Here’s hoping we land on a miracle with DTR

I'll bring the chain and cinder blocks!

I had a friend today literally suggest we call Jeff Garcia because he seemed like he was still in good shape.

At that point I just laughed for the first time all day

Seriously? That really happened?

I prefer to shoot myself, if it comes to that, and it might come to that very soon. 😂

This thread got very dark.

Siemian finished the 2021 season (six games played, four as the starter) with 1,154 yards, 11 touchdowns, 3 interceptions, 57.4% completion percentage, and with a career-high 88.4 passer rating. (cut n paste straight from google).

I'll take that all day every day compared to what I've seen with PJ Walker.

I get that DTR might be the future. But when he sparkled he was playing against guys no longer in the NFL - if he's got a chance to be something I doubt that it's via a route of rushing him into starting his rookie year. Personally I think you've got more probability of hurting his development and confidence by throwing him out there .... hopefully I am wrong and he's come a LONG way since he was put in earlier this year.

Sign Siemian - or another Vet if you don't like Trevor - and play DTR when we get opportunities in games - be super aggressive with getting him a series or so in games we are losing badly or winning by more than 10.

As I noted some ages ago, Simien played in Minnesota when Stefanski was coaching there. QB coach I believe. Simien would have the basic concepts of our system which would give him a leg up on anybody else.

Maybe it is just Homer, but I feel that DTR has grown and learned and will be up to the challenge.

I think Stefanski understands the situation and isn't going to have DTR chucking the ball all over the yard. We have been leaning on the run for a while now. One of the changes we might see is getting Harry B back in the mix with more of the old 2 TE sets. This would serve the running game as well as the passing. Tight ends usually run "safer" routes. I could see both Njoku and Bryant getting a good number of targets.

Nathan Rourke

You'd hope ... but given DTR started without much (any) notice or reps in his one and only start and KS called a game as if he had a seasoned QB playing, I'm not sure I have complete conviction. You'd hope - esp[ecially as the running game has been producing at a good level - but the proof will be in the pudding. If DTR can play about the same level as PJ Walker without the turnovers, I'd probably be quite happy.

haha unfortunately

If you think the guys on these lists are going to create a QB controversy... yikes.

I'd like to add to my list.

Colt McCoy - sentimentality
Nick Foles - "been there, done that"
AJ McCarron - hilarity

Foles is probably the youngest of the "old guys" that we might have interest in ... of course, I have NO idea what vets would best fit our offense

Guys like Rivers or Ryan are statues

Don Strock?

What about Jimmy G?

Isn't he still on the Raiders' roster?

sounds like Flacco it is

Mary Kay Cabot
@MaryKayCabot
·
1m
Joe Flacco is the only QB working out for the #Browns today, a source said. They'll add someone to practice squad or active roster by the time they prep for Denver next week. TBD is that happens this week or next

IIRC, Flacco is a guy that can throw accurately and on time. I guess that'll have to work, right?

Seems like Flacco has been shot for a long time. His last decent season as a starter was 2017.

I think the job of an NFL GM is to upgrade every position on the roster when the opportunity presents itself. At this particular time in this particular circumstance I believe this move would qualify as such.

I'm trying to find a record of Flacco's 2023 performance..it doesn't look as if Flacco has played for any team in 2023. If someone has information showing Flacco's 2023 NFL record, could you post it..?

To me, the lack of information would indicate that the NFL has passed judgement on Flacco's value as an NFL QB. Hopefully he will show the Browns something to prove that he still has value at least as a backup QB.

Flacco was released by the Jets shortly after they brought in Rodgers.

Don't bother. He falls squarely in the category of "crap shoot" with a veteran presence and demeanor on the field. Probably wouldn't get rattled or wilt under the pressure, probably wouldn't do anything extravagant either.

I still don't forgive him after that Jets game against us...

I would kick the tires on RGIII. He wants to be here, he’s not that old, he’s a good guy, and he can play a style similar to Watson’s. At least work him out.

Normally I would, but the defensive breakdowns were so severe and frequent last year that I can't blame him. Kizer probably could have brought the Jets back.

Damn, RGIII is making an all out effort to get the Browns to look his way... Talented guy that can't stay healthy...Too bad really.

RGIII hasn't played since 2020 and ripped a total of 58 passes over his last three years. In his last five seasons he was 4-10 with 7 TDs and 13 INTs.

Don't see how that would be even the slightest upgrade over PJ.

/debate


If a washed up, broken down vet is what we're going for there are better options. The idea of RG3 is perfect (mobile QB who makes plays within a VERY similar system), but those days are so far past we might as well be calling up Bernie.

Bernie?

Bro, he's finally got a shoe deal! Never say never!

j/c:

Joe Flacco leaves without a deal after working out for the Browns, but could be signed by next week to help replace Deshaun Watson

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...g-out-for-the-browns-friday-morning.html

Dangerous game letting him leave with bengals needing a qb. Flacco would be perfect in cincy with that offense

Who really suffers, when the teams that are really good, like the 23 Browns, with all their players healthy, are deprived or removed from the league,
then the legitimacy and the excellency of the league, the NFL as a whole suffers.

It really becomes a thing not to watch, like Thursday night football has become since its removal from television.

The available, well, as outside the box as it may be, the Browns need five to seven active @uarterbacks,
because if any of them play well, the secret game outcome fixers will be out to injure them, or pay them to take a dive?

the five to seven I'd target would be, ... well, 'today' maybe at least ...
Foles, PJ Walker, McCoy, DTR, and Watson, now what would that do?
It would allow for development of enough @uarterbacks with promise that the people who want to keep Cleveland down would have to at least get even more creative in how they accomplish that.

Has any other NFL @uarterback, in history made his or her first two starts against the Ravens and Pittsburgh?
I think no.

Well, he’ll be better this time. It would be damn hard to be worse.

seems like Flacco is a no-go, at least for now. We're gonna see how DTR plays Sunday

They are going to add a QB no matter what.

Even if it is Flacco I think it's purely as a mentor role for DTR, unless he calls on his face.

FYI, I wasn't pushing for RGIII, Just talking about the video he put out.. It was compelling but I remain unconvinced.

I rather have Cam newton or dust of mike vick over RG3.. he parlayed a decent rookie year into playing alot longer than he should have. That being said, I can't believe the way they are handling DTR, his first game is against the team with the most sacks and his second game is against the team with the most takeaways.. i mean come on.. Flacco would have been a solid if not unspectacular get.. at minimum its a vet with another set of eyes on the sideline to help and could step in if things get bad

I'm not sure what you mean by "handling" him. Having him face the opponent on the schedule when he's next man up? If you're saying you'd rather have Flacco starting tomorrow, I definitely disagree with that. I'd probably say the same even if he had spent the last two weeks on the roster, unless he was showing something approaching special on the practice field and in the locker room. The only thing that would have pre-empted DTR this Sunday was a move before the trade deadline. It is what it is.

DTR wasn't drafted in the 5th to be groomed as 'the franchise'. Either he can play or not, there's no saving him as the heir apparent. It's been seven weeks since his disaster vs Baltimore, circumstances dictate that he's now in the unenviable position of 'put up or shut up'. We've had a total of two good QB outings this season, we're 6-3, we're not asking him to throw a team on his back.

We lost our QB for the season five days ago. I don't think any of this was a plot to throw DTR to the wolves, nor do I think there is any other viable option.

Yeah that’s all fine and good with next man up but he wasn’t was he. We let pj walker play after Baltimore instead of lettting DTR get some reps against lesser defenses, so now we go back to him against another rookie qb killer defense. So yeah their handling of him isn’t conducive to being successful. Why not stick with Walker. Atleast we won with him.. wouldn’t that give you better reason to stay? What has DTR done to now all of a sudden deserve another chance. Don’t get me wrong I think Walker sucks and I rather see DTR again over Walker, just saying the timing isn’t good. Your comment about Flacco is silly. I guarantee Flacco could go out there cold and just play backyard football and be better than both Walker and DTR. That’s what game experience gets you.

Watson was injured. He was week to week. You stare down that barrel trying to bridge some wins to his return in the most prudent way possible, not to get prepared for a possible Plan D. If that's the way you approach an NFL schedule, you'll find out what N.F.L. means in a hurry. JMO

*A record high 10 rookie QBs have started games in the league this year. Flacco was last seen photobombing an old dude in the GA section of a Southwest flight to Cleveland. I don't think the rest of the league agrees with you.

Oh, hey... I just noticed.

Happy Birthday! Hopefully the Browns can pull one off tomorrow. Nothing like a win against the Steelers as a birthday gift. Not to many Brownie fans can lay claim to that, here's to a "puncher's chance". 👊

happy birthday lead!

true but are those rookies backups or were they drafted to be the guy? I get what you're saying, I'm just saying DTR has been given a bad couple of games to ease into the role, we should have probably went right back to him after baltimore instead of walker. Thanks! Not too often games line up on my birthday, and even less its the steelers..I sure do hope we win..lol

Thanks!

Happy birthday!

And yet by that same token if the Browns didn't think Flacco was possibly a legitimate upgrade option considering their current QB situation, Flacco wouldn't have been in Cleveland. So either these other 10 teams felt better about their QB situations when their starters went down or this FO was considering making a mistake?

While I'm not pointing the finger at you here, all of those who have tried to make a case that "DTR is the future" or that this FO considers him a legitimate back-up, if that were true Flacco would have never been here for that visit. And before anyone suggests that Flacco was considered a possible mentor for DTR? You don't bring in a statue/pocket passer to teach a kid the system watson plays in. The difference between those two styles of systems is like day and night.

So if DTR gets injured, Hopefully that won't happen

You okay with PJ walker being the lone QB left on the team ?

You can't just have one QB on your roster. Are you actually trying to suggest that Flacco was not brought in as a legitimate upgrade to Walker AND a fifth round rookie who looked like dog crap in his first start? I mean really? That's the hill you've chosen to die on?

You been in the still juice already this morning ?

You make no sense

Reading your sig, I suppose you are happy the Predator is injuried and now the FO and HC are trying to find a solution to keep the Browns team moving forward

You have any better Ideas you should call Berea

I haven't had a drink in over a decade so try again. I don't like watson the person. It's against the rules to use the language I would use to describe him as a person. I have many good friends who are Browns fans. there are also 52 other players on the active roster as well as an entire coaching staff. To root against "watson the player" would be like rooting against all of them. Grown ups can distinguish between those two things and do what is called "compartmentalizing."

And BTW- I don't make a seven figure salary to insure there is a solid plan B at the QB position. There was actually "a better idea" on the roster here and they traded him away for a ham sandwich and a six pack. I guess seven figure salaries don't get you what they used to these days.

DTR is going to be fine

👆🏽
No one (big generalization) has any patience and a clear mind. Thank you FO for having some.

You're basing that on this game? lol

Which part? The DTR will be fine? I said that before the game. Why? Because they were comfortable with their evaluation of going into the season with DTR as the backup. Before the trade deadline, they didn't trade for a QB. They checked their options and were still satisfied with DTR as the backup.

I'm basing off the FO's actions and the improvement shown. I don't expect DTR to become C.J. Stroud. It would be awesome if he did. However, between now and the next couple years, I am hoping he becomes Jacoby Brissett. A reliable backup when called upon.

So you thought that performance was "fine"?

If they were so comfortable with their decision they wouldn't have signed Flacco. They would have signed someone cheaper and of lesser quality. You must have forgotten the Jets game last year.

His performance was "fine". It wasn't amazing, excellent, or terrible. He did what he needed to do within his game plan set forth from KS and AVP. This also was against a Top 3 defense. He checked the boxes this week, let's see if he keeps growing from there.



Why? AB makes PS moves weekly/bi-weekly. The mentoring angle and/or if things go south with DTR is one piece. The other is it's good to have another veteran with years of experience knowing the offense and the playbook. Injuries happen, a rookie QB blowing up can happen. Flacco is a good insurance policy, if we need him.

The Jets game from last year doesn't mean much to me. We are a different team with some different players, staff, and different identity.

PSA: In Berry's press conference last Monday, he said the team was going to sign another QB no matter what because they wanted to carry three. This was well before DTR practiced and played obviously. They only worked out one QB before Sunday....Flacco. The Flacco signing with the Browns has nothing to do with how DTR performed yesterday and from the beat reporters pregame, it was pretty much a done deal but wanted to make it formal on Monday.

I bet it did last year.


Yes we are. Now we have Flacco.

Thanks for the information, Memphis.

There you go. Flacco is a solid option if needed.

I don't understand. Yes, it meant something to me last year after the game completed...but this is this 2023. I don't dwell on games. Same with this year, I move on after losses. I don't take them personally. No matter how good or bad the team is they are bound to happen.

It made no sense financially for the Browns to sign before today. Game check.

I don't agree about not signing a vet over some practice squad type player.

As for fine performance, I suppose in context of the situation it was fine, but in the grand scheme, it was pretty marginal at best. I figure flacco will need a couple of weeks to grasp the O, so DTR will start the next 2 games. If he builds each week, he might stay in....if not Flacco will be brought in in some relief role and probably keep the job the rest of the way.

As things stand today, if we make the playoffs, I'd rather have Flacco at QB....but that is if DTR doesn't step up the game. I think much of the passing game was dictated by Stefanski by plan.

By the time we got to that last drive. The Steelers were worried about PI calls and went to a zone which they didn't play much earlier in the game, then we exploited them to get in to FG range.

It was actually a pretty darn good offensive gameplan.

We signed Flacco because we had to get someone in here, and the options were thin. Without Flacco, we are one hit away from PJ Walker and ....

As I mentioned in another thread, I think they're going to give DTR a shot to show what he's got week-to-week. It's an honest 'TBD'. I'm curious to see the breakdown on 1st team snaps in practice as Flacco joins the team and as DTR logs more starts.

I think that last drive was totally dictated by situational football. Making calls based on the game clock and the score combined with what had happened in the game this far. A great call by Stefanski.

It was the last possession of the game for the Browns. Tie score. The last opportunity you had to win the game in regulation. You hadn't thrown the ball downfield the entire game. The Steelers certainly weren't expecting nor game planning for that. If the ball gets intercepted downfield your D has only given up 10 points the entire game so you would rely on your D to get the stop to send the game into overtime.

So I certainly agree with you that Stefanski limited the passing game so as not to overwhelm the rookie and that last drive was dictated by situational football. In both cases I felt he made the right call.

And yes, I agree that going into the playoffs Flacco has the experience needed to be who I would favor. I think if the Browns plan to make any noise in the playoofs that will be the scenario that will have to play out.

I don't take those types of games personally either. I learn from them. I saw a QB who led his team on two late TD drives for the W. Hopefully that's the type of QB the Browns have in the playoffs if they plan to make a serious attempt to make it to the big game. That same QB we saw accomplish that last year is now on the Browns roster.

I agree Oober. Thats why I said injuries happen. Having another backup with experience and knowing the playbook ahead of time is a good thing.

I agree that it's a good thing DTR is getting some starting experience and learning the playbook now. The Browns may need him late in the season or during the playoffs if Flacco gets injured.

lol, you could be right. I don't agree, but thats ok. I think DTR will be the starter unless he is injured or he starts making bad decisions costing us games. We will see soon enough. Either way, I hope they just keep winning/make the playoffs.

I'm glad you took it in the humorous way with which it was intended. I don't actually have any idea how it will all play out either. I know at this point I would feel more comfortable with the experienced QB at the helm going into the playoffs. Yet on the other hand DTR is a Brown and if he turns out to be a great QB it would not only turn out to be a steal for the Browns but a great situation to be in having a wealth of riches at the QB position.

Yea, I understand your point about experience and should have no problem commanding the offense due to his pedigree. It's a reasonable point.