This link provides a detail analysis of the types of injury to the "Glenoid."

https://www.verywellhealth.com/glenoid-fractures-2549790

After reading that it appears that he should recover and have no ill effects until possibly later in life.

Of course there is way more involved in "what to expect" from DW.

Life teaches us by testing our resolve. What can be accomplished in many cases can be defined by "how bad do you want it?"

Professional football for most who play it is surrounded by injury. Not many escape injury. It is part of playing football.

NFL players know that. They see it all the time.

DW like most has had to deal with injury. He has proven that he will play unless he is forced not to.

Can he regain his former standing as a quarterback? I don't think his motivation can be questioned.

It becomes a matter of "the greatest ability is availability."

If DW can remain on the field and play. I do believe he will return to his previous form.

Bone I feel the same way. I don’t think it’s just the money and contract with DW. Most of the QB’s have high salaries and very good contracts. I would think DW would like to win and win a Super Bowl just because that’s what all NFL players would like. On another note if he starts winning and gets to a Super Bowl there will probably less talk about his past and the legal problems. JMO

From a realistic standpoint I don't think anyone knows what to expect unless they've decided to convince themselves otherwise.

DW has shown he had a lot of difficulty coming back from his long absence from the field. There was a lot of ugly before we saw pretty and we saw pretty for a brief period of time before his injury.

It gives cause to think we can see pretty again but with recovering from an injury and yet another long period off the field how long will it be until we see pretty again this time?

Nobody knows the answer to that question.

Do I see Watson's determination to succeed on the football field as "his main focus" for playing the game..?...NO..!

The Browns owner and management have forfeited any and all leverage, to influence Watson to play football for the Cleveland Browns..to lead the Browns to their first ever Super Bowl Trophy. Watson has been handed a get out jail free card because he has Haslam and Haslam's management team over a barrel.

If Watson fails to deliver, FOR ANY REASON...he will get paid by Haslam because of the "guaranteed contract" that Watson (and his lawyers) demanded before he would agree to play for Haslam and Cleveland.

Given the circumstances the Browns owner and management team concocted, what is Watson's motive for playing Pro football?

Haslam and his management team doesn't like the idea of Flacco possibly putting pressure on Watson as competition for the starting QB position ...Flacco is gone..not resigned because it might upset Watson.

All Flacco did for Cleveland was...

...play a major role in leading the Browns to the playoffs
...helping Stefanski win the Coach of the Year Honors
...helping Jim Schwartz win Assistant Coach of the Year Honors
...helping Myles Garrett win his first Defensive Player of the Year award
...and Flacco earned his own award, being named Comeback Player of the Year

What has Watson done for the Cleveland Browns...not much..!

Does Watson owe the fans of the Cleveland Browns..?
Does Watson owe the Haslam family..?
Does Watson owe the Browns management team..?
Does Watson owe the Browns coaching staff..?
Does Watson owe the Browns medical and support staff..?

DAMN RIGHT HE DOES...Watson owes so many for sacrificing so much to help him be a successful Browns QB...and I'm one Browns fan that expects Watson to give back to those who have sacrificed for him..no excuses..!

Why is a fully guaranteed contract more of a hit than say a partial guaranteed?

Herbert $218m guaranteed.

Burrow $219m guaranteed.

I get Joe played in the Super Bowl, but I guess $ 11 or $12 million less than Watson is not holding Cincinnati or the Chargers over a barrow.

Exactly and 2 years is already paid. When it was first announced it came as a shock and was unprecedented but now it really is no big deal. The jury is still out on whether it was worth it or not depending on how DW plays these next 3 years.

It was unprecedented because his signing set the new precedent.

Didn't Kirk Cousin's three-year $84 million fully guaranteed contract set the new precedent? If I am not mistaken, he received a fully guaranteed extension.

So you think an 84 million dollar contract was the precedent for contracts worth 230 million, 218 million and a 219 million dollars? Cousin's contract paled in comparison. We're talking elite QB money not an 84 million dollar deal.

It was elite QB money at the time. It was the biggest QB contract in history. That's his point.

A good debate is if Cousin was worth that guaranteed money. I say yes. No, he didn't win a Super Bowl, but it stabilized the QB position for them. They were a playoff contender.

Pro Football Network lists quarterback as Browns' biggest weakness

Jacob Roach
May 3, 2024 9:09 am ET
link

Rookie minicamp is next weekend as the Cleveland Browns begin preparations for the 2024 season. Pro Football Network recently released an article about each team’s weakest position group after the draft, and they listed quarterback as Cleveland’s.

“Deshaun Watson is capable of recapturing the form he showed with the Texans, and he is still just 28 years old. But Watson looked lost at times last season, and he finished the campaign by missing the final eight games due to an injured throwing shoulder.

The Cleveland Browns will be a Super Bowl contender if Watson plays well. But if he struggles again or suffers another injury, Cleveland will be forced to play Jamies Winston, who’s as talented as he is unreliable.”

It’s hard to argue with any of their points. Watson had flashes of his old self, but that’s it—just a few moments here and there. There is plenty of reason for optimism with how well he was trending before the injury, but until he consistently puts it on the field, that’s all it is: optimism and hope.

If that's Cleveland's biggest weakness, I'm good with it.

It is like saying Russel Wilson is the biggest weakness for Pittsburgh.

The QB injury issue would affect KC, Buffalo, Cincinnati, and Baltimore.

Forget the guarantee's, guys like that don't get cut. They just don't. As soon as they sign it is pretty much a done deal they will play out the contract and earn the full deal.

I don’t think DW was ever that good to begin with. I think Berry liked him before the draft. Then I think they got a little over mesmerized with his one good season, his leadership, and wanting to move off of Baker. The contract wasn’t a big deal because they knew the salary cap was going to explode. But no QB in the history of the NFL has gotten as much mileage out of a 4-12 season as Watson.

They thought they could take a backyard QB and turn him into a pocket passer. After two seasons they gave that up and brought in Dorsey. The Browns only chance for Watson to be successful is turning him into Josh Allen, which his body will not withstand.

The only saving grace I can really see is Watson seems to get better as the game moves on, the Browns defense will keep games close to make that possible, and the team seems to genuinely like and play for him.

It’s going to be a really interesting season. You will have to tailor your offense to a backyard football offense to have any chance to succeed. I believe that’s 100% their intention.

j/c

what do I expect? More inconsistency for whatever reason. He is what he is at this point: someone who hasn't played consistently well for 5 years

My biggest concern is that he really doesn't have the elusiveness or athleticism that he did back then

DW is the wild card for us this season. I think our D will be just as good if not better. Our ST's should be fine. The O should be better as long as we don't have all those injuries and Nick will help more and more as the season progresses. If DW plays well, not even very good, we should be able to play with anyone and are capable of winning any game. JMO

Let's face it, what we can expect is pretty much a coin toss at this juncture. I understand why some insist on being positive. I also understand why some insist on being negative.

I am not disagreeing with your statement, but it is an interesting take.

Many of the analysts and media are making the same assessment. Watson is unknown...he must be better for Cleveland to win.

Yet, Cleveland won 11 games with a myriad of QBs.

So, for Cleveland to be a winner, Watson must play better than Flacco? What exactly does Watson need to do better to make Cleveland better? If he plays at the level he did in Houston, does that give Cleveland three of four additional wins? Thus, we are saying Cleveland wins 14 or 15 games.

It is like the Browns have no issues other than Watson not playing to expectation, and with Watson not playing to his standard, Cleveland is unpredictable. It makes you go...hmmmm!

I get the whole contract debate. I want to know what Watson must do to make Cleveland better.

I guess what you're saying is the Browns can be a turnover machine and keep winning?

The QB position is the most valuable and highly paid position in the NFL for a reason. That reason is the QB play is the most important single player on the roster. they didn't pay DW 230 mil. to play like Flacco did.

The topic question is "What can we expect from DW?" Not "Can the Browns still win if DW under performs?"

This topic has never been about anything other than that.

If he plays like Flacco he will create a lot of turnovers. Sometimes people look at things like return on investment. I don't know how you see it but I'm pretty sure people think playing similar to a guy they pulled off the couch would be less than acceptable.

My expectations for Watson are consistency, staying healthy, and helping the team make the playoffs. I like Watson to improve in scoring fast and play ball control when needed.

I believe the key issue for the Browns last year was consistency.

If the expectation is Watson needs to play better, I wanted to know what Watson needs to do.

My expectation is the same as our FO's. They expect DW to take us to the Super Bowl. It's the only rationale for that contract.

It's evident DWs best days are behind him. But I think the Browns
Can make the playoffs provided they don't depend on DW carrying
The offense. The Browns stockpiled the RB room where
4 RBs can be asked to run the ball on Sunday
Watson will be asked to protect the ball. Keep the chains
Moving. Dorsey will have his work cut out cause
He doesn't have a Josh Allen to make his role easier
Dorsey will actually have to out scheme the other DCs across
The field. But at the same time he can't overload DWs
Head with complex reads and progressions .
Watson just isn't that kind of QB.

Certainly welcome to your opinion.

I don't think the Browns coaching staff feels that way.

They are building the offense around him. We will not be an offense like we were. The standard concept will be a form of at least three pass options.

We will use more shotgun and motion taking advantage of moving the pocket which is a strength of DW.

We will be a running back by committee ground game. IMO.

Give a young man who lacks character $230 million guaranteed is likely to produce more of the same we've already seen from him... Great one week, not so great the next week and then injury.

I know that the Browns front office and HC don't agree with that thinking and I look forward to being proven wrong, but I have my doubts.

I want to be wrong by the way. I just don't think I am.

We will find out.

Your option to look at the glass half empty or half full.

I hope DW plays WELL ENOUGH for us not only for the good of the whole team but for the sake of putting this debate behind us. 3 more years of will he or won't he will be too much, way too much!

He needs to play commensurate to what he is being paid. If not the team isn't getting a fair return on that huge investment. That's how a business is ran. If you don't get results that are commensurate with the investment that you made that is a failed investment. Being simply above average and consistent alone is not a good return on the investment.

I am not sure how one can measure whether he meets that expectation.

Watsons first two seasons were marred by a suspension and one by injury. One was expected, one not.

At this point one can't draw any conclusions. Let's see what happens this year. We can't say much about the last 2 seasons and project them forward. We need to see what happens this year before we can start to evaluate if the guy is meeting team expectations.

I want to note it is team expectations, not the expectations of you or I.

If you pay for a Maserati and end up with a Ford Bronco it won't take you long to know the difference.

Better plan for a lot of shop time for either one. Neither is even average as far as reliability.

IIRC the Maserati engine has Chrysler parts!

I drive mine around 185

Do you mean I 85?

I drive my Corolla about 65-70!

Nope. Life's just been good to him so far ......

Good for you. I lost my license, now I don't drive.

Here is a thought to ponder.

Does anyone remember the "Greatest Show on Turf"?

I lived in St. Louis at the time. They hired OC Mike Martz, signed QB Trent Green, drafted Torry Holt, and traded for Marshall Faulk. Trent Green suffered a season-ending injury during the last preseason game. Afterward, they signed Kurt Warner away from an Iowa grocery store! There were three other receivers Isaac Bruce, Ricky Proehl, and Az-Zahir Hakim.

Mike Martz was a disciple of the "Air Coryell" style offense. Mike constructed an offense that was very close to unstoppable. Warner, Bruce, and Holt would run routes based on what the defensive backs did. Running back Marshall Faulk was allowed to do just about anything out of the backfield since defenses were attempting to contain Bruce and Holt. If that was not enough, Martz had pass catcher Proehl (basically used as a TE) and speed receiver Hakim. The plays were designed around deception and decoys. At the snap of the ball, Warner located the open area of the field and threw to the receiver. To keep the defense honest, they hand or pass the ball to Faulk. The Rams also had one of the best offensive lines.

It has been 24 years and no one has ever duplicated this offense. Warner never had the same success he had outside of the years 1999-2001. He had some success in Arizona going to the Super Bowl, but it was nothing like what he had with the Rams.

I don't know if the Browns will run an "Air Coryell" style offense, but there are a lot of similarities. Dorsey is a very cerebral offense-minded coordinator much like Martz. Cooper and Jeudy have similar characteristics as Bruce and Holt minus the speed. Njoku is similar to Proehl. Moore/Thrash can match Hakim as the go-route receiver. Nick Chubb is as effective as Faulk. Watson is as capable of reading defenses as Warner.

Everyone on the Rams had a unique skill set. When combined, they were pretty close to unstoppable. If their defense was stronger, the Rams could have won two or three Super Bowls.

I'm curious if the Browns can do something similar with their offense. Looking back the Rams were so lucky everything fell into place.

At this point anything is possible. Either good or bad.

Just think if you were a fan of that grocery store. That grocery store GM should’ve been fired immediately for not using the franchise tag on Warner.

Watson is known for everything you say he can't do. He was always commended for his ability to read defenses. Josh Allen running is makes him a threat. His arm is big, but he will give the ball away. In Houston Watson was every bit as good as Allen. You have your right to your opinion, but I would bet that you are way off base here.

DW has to play without disruption. He needs to play a full season.

I see no reason for him not to be a top ten quarterback. Unless he doesn't play.

All of what was and is expected of him now comes home to roost. The credit card has run up the bill now it is payment time.

This is the deepest team in memory. We are not going into the season with Dobbs, PJ, and DTR.

We have depth all over the roster. However, in order to do real damage. Deshaun Watson has to play up to his full capability.

That said, I also think he doesn't need to be "the show". Just take what the D gives you. Just moving chains is good enough. The gash plays will happen. Get to the redzone, then strike.

Hi Mac excellent post
Question who on this board feels we could trade Watson straight up for Cousins?
2nd point if Watson was a rookie and he had played this bad would we have drafted his replacement yes or no
My biggest reason for not liking Watson the player
Is that he stunk at the stadium when he played here originally !to me if it looks like garbage smells like garbage
Then it probably is garbage.

That may be good enough to win some games but that's really not much different that what we had in Flacco. I don't see how anyone can say Watson was paid all that money to play like Flacco.

Don't forget there are others on the team.

Who cares if he throws 220 yards and 2 touchdowns.

Watson must be the difference maker when it is time to win the game whether it is maintaining a lead or scoring on the final drive.

I didn't forget. And each of those players are paid according to their skill set and anticipated performance. You either live up to that or you don't. You either earn it or you don't. I have no idea whether watson will do that or not. Only time will tell. If you're being paid enough and were signed to be the show, you need to be the show. Saying that all he needs to do be is average and not make a lot of mistakes isn't why he was given that huge contract. That's all I was saying.

But I certainly agree with you that coming through in the clutch, when the game is on the line is a vital part of it no doubt.

We often hear on this very board how players were overpaid because their performance doesn't live up to their contract. For me watson is no different than the rest of them.

I’m old and just want to see my team play in a Super Bowl. I expect that we’ll have a competitive team this year. As for what I expect from Dashawn, I’d be surprised if he remains healthy enough to play past week 9. That said…. they need to find a way to get it done this year. This is the last good Browns team that many of us will ever see.

I would say we will have a good team for the next 2-3 years. After that, who knows.

Believe me; I feel the urgency.

I don't remember a deeper team. This is a talented deep roster.

Nobody can forecast injuries. All of the talk and predictions that surround football and injuries can define the outcome.

When you look at position groups the team looks stacked. How do you win eleven games with all the injuries we had last year? Talented depth.

If we can get lucky and not lose key players; we should have a great season.

I understand. What we don't see is how to distribute the ball to all playmakers.

In a game, there is an average of 24 possessions 12 for each team. Offenses see 60 snaps. If my math still works, that averages 5 plays per possession.

If the goal is to split the plays 50/50 between run and pass, that is 30 each.

Chubb averages 4 yards per carry and 20 carries per game.

Now! In order for Watson to complete 60% of his passes and throw 300 yards per game, he will need to average 15 yards per pass.

In a 5 play possession, Chubb/running back will get two carries and Watson will complete 2 out of 3 passes.

This means the receivers will see 20 catches per game. Your primary receivers are Cooper, Juedy, Moore, and Njoku, so 5 catches each and 75 yards per game.

When people say they want to see Watson look like he did in Houston, how do you want Dorsey/Stefanski to game plan?

I understand your logic. But then the FO just hired a new OC to tailor this O around watson. While you certainly can site the league average, I think you will find those averages don't hold true with teams who have top 10 QB's. Chubb's contract also ends after the 2024 season.

It seems clear that the hiring of Ken Dorsey was meant to tailor this O around watson. I mean after all the Browns made the playoffs with a patchwork quilt of QB's last season so what more could anyone ask for than that? Just look at where Dorsey came from. Buffalo where not only was Dorsey the OC but prior to that he was the QB coach for Josh Allen.

How Dorsey/Stefanski game plan isn't up to me. But for me the writing is on the wall in the direction its headed. I guess my question back to you is why would an NFL team pay 230 million dollars and give up three first round picks for a QB they only ask to be little more than a game manager?

I have no arguments with that.

It will be interesting how they designed this offense for sure.

I do know there are a lot of good players on this offense. They will want to make the best use of them.

The biggest question I have is how they use Chubb. Will they greatly reduce his carries and gear it toward a passing offense? My answer is yes. If this is the case, the Browns game averages I stated earlier will change.

I hope the "run the dang ball" fans don't have too much anxiety!

Change often isn't easy to embrace. Peen used to post all the time about the NFL turning more and more into a passing league. And that's certainly the direction it's been trending ever since. Of course you have to have a very talented QB to make that happen. Obviously there aren't enough of those high caliber QB's to make it possible for all NFL teams to do that. So the Browns went out and bought one with that very idea in mind.

I'm from a different time. I played RB in high school. I remember the days of Jim Brown, Larry Csonka, Leroy Kelly, Franco Harris, Sweetness and the list goes on. I've seen many of the greatest RB's of all time play over the decades. Chubb actually gave me glimpses of those times again and I love it!

But times change. We have witnessed the Browns transform to actually paying up big to get a QB they feel can make this O a passing team. We just witnessed them hire a man to help complete that transformation. To me that's where it stands. How that plays out and what the future holds I have no way of knowing. But one thing I won't do is go kicking and screaming about the direction they have chosen to follow as it pertains to the passing game.

You either keep up or you fall behind. I may not agree with their choice on who they chose to QB this team but it was certainly a bold attempt to keep up rather than fall behind.

So, we turn into the Kardic Kids!!! LOL!

I'm too of the old-school football. I grew up in the Leroy Kelly and both Pruit running backs era. Back then, Cleveland could never have both a strong defense and offense. It would always leave us short of winning it all.

One thing is for sure, when the Browns were their best, they built something unique.

This year has the build-up to the Kardic Kids season. No one knew what to expect having Logan, Newsome, Rucker, and Warfield. How were they going to use Calvin Hill and Greg and Mike Pruit (or was it just Mike)? Sipe played behind a good offensive line too.

Until it is proven with performance on the field there will be questions surrounding DW.

However, I don't think there are questions about the defense. There have been some additions and subtractions at linebacker.

The defensive line is good and deep with Myles, Z, Tomlinson, Harris, Hurst, Jefferson, Hall, Ogbo, Wright, (Ika, McGuire, Thomas)

We are deep and talented in the defensive backfield at both safety and corner.

Key injuries can wreak any team but that is a factor all teams face.

Two things to improve on are Red Zone scoring and playing on the road. Schwartz returns and players know what to expect from him.

So, defense should be a strength with a chance to be really great.

The "at home" defense or the "on the road" defense?.................

One challenge for Stefanski and his staff next year will be to figure out why Cleveland’s ballyhooed defense was so inconsistent, depending on whether the Browns were playing at home or on the road.

At home, the Browns’ defense held their opponents to 13.9 points per game, but on the road Cleveland gave up an average of over 31 points per game. That’s a startling differential unseen in the NFL in 40 years.

“You’re going to have to give me some time. I think we have to pull that apart and look at it, said Stefanski. “I mean, it is something that you have to get to the bottom of, and we’ll look at it.”

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jiming...-exit-from-the-playoffs/?sh=6350ba2446fc

This is from a much longer article but directly points out the contrast of the D at home verses on the road.

The numbers are striking and they need to tear it apart.

But one would think football is football on a field with the same dimensions. If you can play well at home there should not be a huge drop off when on the road.

They should figure it out and of course there will be emphasis on doing so.

One would certainly hope they figure it out. I knew there was a difference in how they performed on the road verses how they performed at home but I had no idea the contrast was so stark until I actually looked into the numbers.

Wasn't the road schedule against tougher teams?

That is not to say they should not look to improve. The numbers might be misleading a bit.

Isn't it the better teams you need to beat in order to win a championship? And are you trying to indicate that giving up that many points against "tougher teams" is acceptable?

Let's look at division rivals as an example since we played those same teams both at home and on the road....

Browns verses Bengals...

At home the Browns held the Bengals to 3 points. On the road the Browns gave up 31 points to the Bengals.

Browns verses Steelers...

Away the Browns gave up 26 points to the Steelers. At home the Browns held the Steelers to 13 points.

Browns verses the Ravens...

This one is much closer. at home the Browns gave up 28 points the the Ravens. Away they gave up 31.

If you wish to talk about playing against tough teams. At home the Browns only gave up 17 points to the 49'ers. While on the road they gave up 29 points to the Broncos.

I believe that you are right that the road schedule was tougher. But the average points given up is unacceptable at any level.

In a few of those games, the offense did not help much, but your point taken.

Consistent and healthy all season long in 2024 is what I am hoping and praying for.

The offense had an uncanny ability to turn the ball over deep in their own territory on the road. Uncanny. Then the defense would make a stand to hold the opponent to a fg only to have it unravel with a penalty or penalties. Over and over and over again. Never seen anything like it. Or the offense would give up 6 pts on a turnover on the road. Repeatedly. Then the defense would get slammed for giving up a ton of road points.

There’s nothing wrong with the Browns road defense. It will be fine.

Watson will get hurt if they turn him into a runner, which is what Dorsey is going to do, which is why they brought in Winston. Which I still don’t understand why they did that over Flacco. Maybe the turnovers. Maybe Watson’s feelings.

At any rate DTR will be the starter in 2025.

The defense looked great at home largely due to the QBs they faced. An injured Burrow game 1 in the rain, Ryan Tannehill, Kenny Pickett, Purdy without Deebo Samuel and a banged up McCaffrey, Clayton Tune, an injured Trevor Lawrence who was a game time decision, Trevor Siemian and Justin Fields. Lamar Jackson cooked them in Cleveland.


Tanking for Arch Manning?

I wonder what the Vegas odds are on DW actually taking us to the playoffs this year? I bet the odds of him playing all the games are extraordinarily long. I hope he can get it done or the egg on our faces over that trade will last 50 years.

I don't mean be a game manager...or suppose I am to a degree. Watson needs to exhibit excellence, but he doesn't have to be the show. If that 8 yard crossing route is all that is open or all the play is calling for, then hit the 8 yard crossing route.

We all want gash plays that pick up 40 yards, but not all plays are designed, or at least expected to gain 40 yards.

Last year, any real complaints in Watsons play weren't due to inferior play. It was because of injury. The only way you can help to eliminate game type injuries is if Watson runs, slide 2 yards sooner than he does. When passing, hit the read early to get the ball out sooner.

So.....maybe he does need to play a bit more like Flacco played.

j/c:

Where Deshaun Watson ranks on Pro Football Focus’ list of NFL’s best quarterbacks for 2024

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...-of-nfls-best-quarterbacks-for-2024.html

I don’t understand this take. If the Browns were bad, then i could understand it. But the only thing that would make the trade bad is if the trade prevented the Browns from having a good team and that hasn’t happened. If the Browns never win a Super Bowl with Watson it won’t be a bad trade as long as the team remains good.

The 9ers made a similar trade for Trey Lance and no one says a word about it because although he flopped they are a well run organization that has remained good. Believe it or not the Browns are a well run organization with maybe the most talented team in the league from top to bottom.

Do you mean on Dawgtalkers?

I'm pretty sure those who pay the salaries expect the play to equal the pay. Unless of course the business world has been turned upside down. It amazes me how many of the same people that claimed the Browns had signed a QB who was the best thing since sliced bread have already changed course with much lower expectations. And now those much lower expectations would suit them just fine. How did Dylan put it? "These times they are a changing."

Hey Jackson...I can't help but feel like DW has a debt to pay to the Browns fans as well as the Browns owners, coaches and support staff...those who have done all they could to help DW succeed in Cleveland.

Now it's up to Watson to prove what kind of QB he is...no more excuses..!

That's because the 49ers caught lightening in a bottle and were bailed out by Brock Purdy. The 49ers have been in the Super Bowl and played in the NFC Conference championship two years prior to that. Could have back-to-back Super Bowl appearances but they were down McCaffrey playing QB against the Eagles in 2022.

The Browns got clobbered by a rookie QB in the Wild Card.

I agree, the Browns have the right people in place to be a successful organization. It's worth noting that they did not/have not restructure(d) Watson's contract this offseason which leaves the Browns options open both now and in the future.

Not all of the circumstances are exact but the point remains. Unless the Watson trade impacts the Browns ability to field a good team it was a good trade.

I have a feeling that fan expectations are different than team expectations. As for my expectations, I don't think they have changed at all. The problem with expectations is that most people attach some sort of numbers, be it TD's, Yards, wins, championships. I don't see that as productive.

I think you measure all of that after the player is done playing. I have long said that anything less than a Superbowl win is a failed season. That is the bottom line, but if I use that as an expectation to an individual player, then every player who has played for the Browns since 1964 have been failures.

Nothing about that trade made it easier or more-likely for the FO to otherwise field a good team. It actually did the exact opposite. Had the trade not been made, they'd have (3) more 1st Rd picks on the team...and more...and cap space out the wazoo. They still could have picked up Brissett and Flacco while waiting for the FQB.

Imagine this roster with a 1st Rd LT...1st Rd WR...&...promising 1st Rd QB.

They bet the farm on this trade - when they didn't HAVE to IMO - and the trade will always be about DW winning playoff games and/or being better than the picks they gave up.

The Browns roster is ranked top 5 on every list imaginable and number 1 on many of them. The roster currently has a first round LT and WR on it. (those that think Wills sucks has no idea what they are watching)

Having more first round picks doesn’t mean or guarantee anything. Browns fans of all people should know this. And there continue to be many ways around the cap. The Browns continuously strengthen their team through FA before and after Watson.

The Browns roster has continuously gotten better since acquiring Watson.

Unless the Watson trade is holding the team back I just don’t see how it was a bad trade.

I think people most people consider football a sport. When in fact it is a corporate business. Businesses expect a ROI and that the return be equal to or above the investment. As such if you pay a QB top 10 money you expect top 10 production. You don't expect to pay top 10 money and get less than top 10 production. That simply doesn't make any business sense.


And that would be something I would go along with if the Browns had a crappy team. But they don't. The pieces of the puzzle are in place to succeed. The supporting cast is there. If a QB can't take advantage of that, how do you think the Browns stand a chance of ever winning a SB?

I understand the Browns making the trade. The question now is did they make the right trade? Did they actually get a top 10 NFL QB? Because that's what they paid for. Only time will tell at this point.

I wish to remind you that the Browns paid Denver over 16 million dollars for Brock Osweiler in exchange for a single season for a second round pick. They did make that pick worthwhile by drafting Chubb but that doesn't change what they valued a second round pick at. They valued a second round pick at 16 million.

Now how much more do they think they value a first round pick to be worth? Certainly far more than a second round pick. So whatever number you come up with, multiply that by three and add it to the contract they paid to Watson. Only then will you arrive at his actual cost.

And since as you have pointed out, which I agreed with above, that the Browns have built a great roster around Watson, what are your expectations? Wouldn't you say with a great roster and the totality of what they gave up in the package for watson that Browns fans, as well as the people paying his salary don't have good reason to have high expectations of watson?

After all he has an great roster to support him.

The Browns now have two first-round WRs, QB, LT, RT, and TE along with a second-round LG, RB, and WR.

What makes you think another first-round LT and WR would make that much difference? Then you want to add a "promising 1st round - QB" to lead it.

Even if you decided to use Flacco or Brissett, they are two play-action QBs. You would underutilize the play-making talent.

Expectations are no different putting a passing 11-personnel QB in a play-action run offensive scheme. You underutilized the QB.

There is no logical stance that suggests our roster - and our future - would NOT be better with having used/had (3) 1st Rd picks in the last three years.

Add (3) top tier players to this roster and this roster is better than without those (3) top tier players...no matter the position.

Also, those (3) top tier players would be on cheaper rookie deals. We can't say that about ANY premium offensive position...and likely only (1) defensive position in Emerson.

If one wants to believe that the roster is fine as is and we didn't 'need' those (3) first Rd picks ( and if the FO thought likewise) then those (3) 1st Rd picks would have been traded for future picks...further solidifying the mantra on sustained competitiveness.

How good does DW need to be to make this a 'good' trade? I don't know. What I DO know is that through last season, his play wasn't nearly enough...or good enough.

DW has to play well enough to WIN...remembering the "team goal" is to win enough games to qualify for the 2024/2025 playoffs.

You assume better players were available in the draft.

You assume Berry could draft a better QB than Watson. Note also that Cleveland would draft toward the bottom of the rounds which is a higher probability a player does not meet expectations.

I understand your opinion an injured Watson did not play to your expectations.

The draft is not a sure thing. You stated Willis is not good enough. I think Willis is fine. Joe Thomas, he is not. He is a valid starting LT. Drafting someone in the mid to late first-round that is better is statistically unlikely.

The risk and reward trading for Watson was great. I believe the reward is still available. Drafting the second or third-best QB in the draft also comes at a high risk and reward.

If by better you mean what many are suggesting "good enough to win" the likelihood of that happening is far greater than a top 10 NFL QB which he is being paid to perform like. Only on a Browns message board does the fact that an employee needs to perform in accordance with his pay grade seem like a novel concept.

What? Better players than whom? Any 1st Rd player is better than no player(s). If the FO didn't think it needed a 1st Rd pick(s) because they were so stacked, they would have traded it...for something...anything better than nothing.

DW was brought here because he was a guy thought to be able to take us deep into the playoffs. Where that thought came from is beyond me. He has (1) playoff win. At this moment, I can't fathom that one could think this wasn't a bad trade...let alone wasn't a good trade.

If you don't get value for a player you traded - then it was a bad trade. The worse the value - the worse the trade.

How good the rest of the team is - how the other players or backup QBs play to help the team win has zero bearing on how good or bad a trade is. The trade is evaluated in isolation.

If the Browns traded picks only - gave away a 1st round pick for a 3rd round pick - but the team was still good and they found a great player to contribute in the 4th and 5th and 6th round of the same draft ... the trade of a 1st for a 3rd round pick would be a bad trade.

Framing the Watson trade in terms of how the team has performed since the trade - even though Watson himself has done nothing to warrant 3 first round picks - is whackadoddle.

Better players than whom? Then the starting players the Browns already have.

It is challenging winning playoffs when injured.

Nothing? Browns have a QB that won more games than he lost. Bad Trade? Who could predict injuries? How can you speculate Watson is no longer capable of winning playoff games? He still has years remaining on his contract.

Have you reviewed what QBs were available in the draft these past 3 years?
2024: Caleb Williams; Jayden Daniels; Drake Maye; Michael Penix; J.J. McCarthy; Bo Nix.
2023: Young; Stroud; Anderson.
2022: Pickett.

Assuming you could trade up to get one. This is before the 2022 draft. Which one of these QBs is a better option than Watson?

Assuming the Browns did draft a rookie QB. Browns proved they could not go deep into the playoffs with Brissett and Flacco.

Explain again why not trading for Watson would have been the better option. Yes, you have more draft picks, but if you are not going any further in the playoffs, why not take the risk of trading for Watson?

How the DW trade turns out won't be determined for 3 years. As far as making the trade? I feel it was a good gamble to improve our QB position. It was worth a shot. JMO

We could have drafted 2.0 versions of Manziel, Mingo, and Gilbert over the past three drafts.
I’ll continue to roll the dice with Watson. At this point we have no other choice. Everything else is speculation mixed with whining about something that can’t be rewritten.

Bingo. WSU and mgh, just read this over snd over.

The part you guys keep forgetting, which I thought was self explanatory but apparently is whackadoodle, is the Browns didn’t feel like they had the right QB at the time of the trade for Watson. You guys aren’t arguing that the trade was bad. You’re arguing you preferred they kept Baker. Those are two different things.

Amen, Baker was NOT the answer----20/20 hindsight is ALWAYS perfect----IF Watson has a full season at his Houston level of play AND we near or attend a SB the trade would be considered successful. AT 76, I hope to see a Browns AFC/SB appearance- time will tell.

It has nothing to do with anyone else. The jury isn't in in how the trade for watson will play out. Time will tell on that. Thus far the return on investment hasn't transpired. But you are trying to mingle two different things. Football is a business and that's what this, in the end what this will all boil down to. ROI... Return on investment. You'll either get a QB whose return in performance equals or exceeds what you give up for him or you won't. It's that simple.

Trying to pretend it's something other than that to try and take away from the actual business side of it is nothing more than a weak deflection. A child's game.

Ummm...so we should assume that our current FO would have simply botched the picks anyway? Talk about whackadoodle. We also could have TRADED the picks for future picks...or traded up and around to have the ammo to eventually move up and draft a guy like CJ Stroud...and we most definitely would have a lot more cap room. Not to mention three 1st Rd players on cheaper rookie deals.

The point is that in addition to still having a huge question mark at QB...for (3) years we had NO 1st Rd picks and zero upper draft flexibility. Isn't the drafting mantra one where you need more picks to take as many swings as you can?

I understand that the "Browns didn’t feel like they had the right QB at the time of the trade for Watson". And so far, Watson has not looked like the right QB either. A guy with (1) career playoff win coming off a self-imposed, 100% healthy, missed season. Never mind the massage therapist BS that followed.

Baker has nothing to do with the DW evaluation. If all we "need" from DW is Jacoby Brisett level play...we should have just kept Jacoby Brissett.

Here's what Houston got:

https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...ans-got-from-browns-in-blockbuster-deal/

To this point, the DW trade has been an epic failure. He has time to turn it around and I hope he does.

I think you’re a smart guy WSU, but I don’t think you’re getting the gist here.

But since we are playing the what if game, here’s some more. We don’t attract the same free agents or create the same culture if we don’t trade for Watson. Which means we don’t make the playoffs last year and win a slew of rewards on top of that.

The Browns are a legitimate good, playoff team with a legitimate shot to win it all this year. And we got idiot arguments like ROI (very similar to the Haslam didn’t have to market gas, my personal all time favorite) and what ifs on drafting left tackles. This is insanity.

For the first time in 25 years the Browns are not a laughing stock. They are far from the worst franchise in sports or the NFL. This is a great time to be a Browns fan. I think if the Browns were floundering, melting down, changing coaches and GMs, or just generally awful and you could tie that to the Watson trade I think there’s an argument there. But i just don’t see it. The Browns made the best decision with the best information they had at the time.

Ignoring that business is in large part based on ROI by claiming it's insanity is in and of itself insanity. I believe it is common place for businesses to make the best moves based on the information given at the time. The test is whether that decision pays dividends or not. If it does the decision was a success. If not it was the wrong decision. There are three years left to find out which one it was.

The #1 D in the league and Flacco are why they made the playoffs. Watson helped until he was injured but without that D and Flacco it would have been a mediocre season at best. Success is fine but let's give credit for it where credit is due.

I mostly agree with what you are saying here. I'd have probably left the "bests" out of the last sentence. That's most likely due to conversations about cherry picking info elsewhere on the boards.

(Agreeing with you) They tried to assimilate a whole lot of information when making their decision, and a whole lot of things beyond Watson himself were affected by the decision they ended up making.

Trying to pick it apart now and revise history disregards the entwined nature of the enterprise. Keeping the good while getting rid of the bad and adding more good sounds great. Unfortunately, tip over one domino and more than just it changes, Willie.